What year was Indica used for hybrids in Mexico?

[Lugo]

I think you mean TIME magazine and that is by no means any reference on truth in this matter or any other as far as i'm concerned.

Regardless its an interesting possibility. More so for me that have found totally Thai phenotypes come up once in a blue moon among my Punto Rojo.

In the long run in that scenario the introduced variety would just be absorbed by the sheer numbers and huge genetic pool of the native species and thats just science.

My experience is that the plant has remained the same.

I do definetely get the impression that certain folks want to push a narrative that Colombian landrace Cannabis is not Colombian. Ive heard the same shpeal with the Afghan varieties being introduced as well and of Colombian BLDs yaddayada but none of those theories hold water culturally, historically or scientifically in reference to Colombian landrace Cannabis.

I do appreciate the post though!

I'm gonna go ahead and do a re-read. From what I read its pretty hideous drug war propaganda where were basically all these Colombian families took it upon themselves to invade the US with drugs, crime and violence jaja while at the same time getting guidance on what to plant from nameless 'traffickers' who appear with SE Asian genetics.

Its an interesting story but thats all it is.

If I find that Thai Alacran phenotype ill definetely let you know!

Theres an airport 20 mins away and you might know about our hometown hero Carlos Lehder so anything is possible I guess!



I think they tried maybe!

Only a gringo- I mean a Colombian would do something like that.

When words fail go with an emoji.

Amazing how people that don't live here, never have, don't know our history know dic* about Colombian Cannabis or our drug war history think they are experts on the subject by using a 1979 TIMES magazine (magazine they've probably never even read in their lives lol) just drug war propaganda probably ghost written by the CIA to try to make the point that Colombian Cannabis is a hybrid and that its Mexican or Thai influenced.

Talk about ignorance and desperation!

Nevermind that plant biology doesn't even work that way even if it were the case.

Colonialism in Cannabis exists.

 

[Lugo]

Since you like to read so much here an actual document with references and an actual name attached @mexcurandero420

I also included the link to the entire paper which I recommend to anyone that want doesn't 'bro science' Colombian history.

LA "PREHISTORIA" DE LA MARIHUANA EN COLOMBIA: CONSUMO Y CULTIVOS ENTRE LOS AÑOS 30 Y 60

Theres also a summary in English por si acaso no hablas Español

Enjoy!

 

[mexcurandero420]

I think you mean TIME magazine and that is by no means any reference on truth in this matter or any other as far as i'm concerned.

Regardless its an interesting possibility. More so for me that have found totally Thai phenotypes come up once in a blue moon among my Punto Rojo.

In the long run in that scenario the introduced variety would just be absorbed by the sheer numbers and huge genetic pool of the native species and thats just science.

My experience is that the plant has remained the same.

I do definetely get the impression that certain folks want to push a narrative that Colombian landrace Cannabis is not Colombian. Ive heard the same shpeal with the Afghan varieties being introduced as well and of Colombian BLDs yaddayada but none of those theories hold water culturally, historically or scientifically in reference to Colombian landrace Cannabis.

I do appreciate the post though!

I'm gonna go ahead and do a re-read. From what I read its pretty hideous drug war propaganda where were basically all these Colombian families took it upon themselves to invade the US with drugs, crime and violence jaja while at the same time getting guidance on what to plant from nameless 'traffickers' who appear with SE Asian genetics.

Its an interesting story but thats all it is.

If I find that Thai Alacran phenotype ill definetely let you know!

Theres an airport 20 mins away and you might know about our hometown hero Carlos Lehder so anything is possible I guess!



I think they tried maybe!

Only a gringo- I mean a Colombian would do something like that.

Well you remind me of that guy a few years back, who tried to convince us here on this forum, that Hawaii had landraces that went back to the arrival of the British fleet to Hawaii with Joseph Banks who gave Indian hemp seeds to the Hawaiians.

Mel Frank did send some genetics like Cambodia and Colombia to Phylos. Both were related.

Cambodia currently has no clones in the Galaxy. It has 18 relatives in the Galaxy.

The list of genetic relatives is ordered in descending relatedness. If a number appears to the right of the variety name, that denotes the number of clones of that variety that are currently in the Phylos Galaxy.

If you can show me pictures of the 1930s, 40s of Colombian people smoking, selling like I found from Mexico. Till now I speak of Colombian cultivars, not landraces.

 

[Lugo]

Well you remind me of that guy a few years back, who tried to convince us here on this forum, that Hawaii had landraces that went back to the arrival of the British fleet to Hawaii with Joseph Banks who gave Indian hemp seeds to the Hawaiians.

Mel Frank did send some genetics like Cambodia and Colombia to Phylos. Both were related.

Cambodia currently has no clones in the Galaxy. It has 18 relatives in the Galaxy.

The list of genetic relatives is ordered in descending relatedness. If a number appears to the right of the variety name, that denotes the number of clones of that variety that are currently in the Phylos Galaxy.

View attachment 19012028
If you can show me pictures of the 1930s, 40s of Colombian people smoking, selling like I found from Mexico. Till now I speak of Colombian cultivars, not landraces.

Again Phylos is not an end all be all of anything in my opinion but I understand what your getting at.

I agree with you about the Hawaiian landraces bit, its a tricky situation when you have what is considered the landrace 'mechanics' at play lets say but not the time and with the constant stream of new genetics being introduced.

So maybe the pigs can be considered landrace in Hawaii but the herb not quite.

I posted a paper (attached) documenting Colombian Cannabis use in the 30's which includes police reports mostly, photographs not likely or hard to come by before the late 40's-50's

I'm reading some old documents and state sponsored studies on Brasilian Cannabis use atm now that are from the 50's but i'm still working on the translation.

Its a bit later (1958) but there are some cool pics.

 

[53grayeyes]

I must be confused. What makes any of you think that hybridization wasn't going on in the 17th or 18th century? Somehow those people couldn't figure out how to cross this short version with that long version?

Oh, and it only happened on this date or that.

 

[mudballs]

Cuz the population density and societal interaction during that time doesn't support that explosive contamination theory

 

[53grayeyes]

Ignore the facts, that's the way to go.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

Much _respect_ to Lugo and mexcurando420 for disagreeing without being fucking disagreeable. People _learn_ from these discussions and there's a whole shitload of lurkers who never post but suck this info in and _learn_, keep it up!!

 

[mexcurandero420]

Chris Duvall in his book Cannabis about Brazil & Mexico btw.

The first documents suggesting the psychoactive species are from mid-eighteenth-century Brazil and Mexico.Cannabis indica arrived in Mexico overland from the south, but the authorities did not connect marijuana with Cannabis until the mid-1800s. Mexican farmers were capable agriculturalists, and in the mid-1700s one successfully bred Cannabis to produce fibre in the central highlands. (This cultivar did not survive the farmer’s death in the 1770s, however.30)
Others kept trying, with modest success. In 1787 Mexican unfinished
hemp exports to Spain reached 2,000 kg (4,400 lb), when a large ship
required 100 tons of rope.31 The colonial government spent heavily to
develop hemp industries, but by the 1790s decided that the project was
an expensive failure.32
Colombia and Peru were other important areas of early Spanish
activity, and sativa failed in these low-latitude countries. Into the 1950s
Colombian authorities lamented the absence of hemp, while bemoan-
ing the presence of marijuana.33

The idea that drug Cannabis was introduced to the Americas –
particularly Brazil – via the slave trade was proposed in 1867,39 and has
become widely accepted despite minimal research. The main evidence
for African introduction is linguistic similarities between Brazilian
Portuguese and Central African languages. Additionally, in the early
1900s a Brazilian naturalist collected folklore that supports linguistic
inference: ‘The seeds [were] brought by unfortunate captives [who] tied
[the seeds] in pouches along the edges of their wraps and loincloths,
[and] who ultimately disseminated [drug Cannabis] to all of South
America and the Antilles.’40
Although this story is not repeated in other collections of Afro-
Brazilian folklore,41 it is plausible. Slaves entered the Middle Passage
mostly unprepared and often unclothed, but many crops crossed the
Atlantic on slave ships.42 There are similar tales of the concealed trans-
port of rice seeds,43 which are approximately the same size as hempseeds.
Indeed, the transport of drug Cannabis seed by a slave was observed
in Gabon during the 1840s or ’50s. The American observer did not
encounter indica near the coast, ‘but once . . . saw a few . . . seeds in the
possession of a slave . . . He was carefully preserving them, intending
to plant them in the country to which he should be sold.’ Unfortunately,
the American recorded few details because ‘Hasheesh and the Cannabis
Indica are so well known that it is not necessary to say anything about them
here.’ Instead, he repeated contemporaneous European drug discourse:
‘Insanity is often its ultimate result’, and ‘the negroes’ seemed unable
to resist the drug plant’s ‘gradual but sure advances’ into new areas.44 The
rare chance that an outsider observed and recorded indica seed-saving
suggests that marijuana was not unusual among Central African slaves.

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

Mel Frank did send some genetics like Cambodia and Colombia to Phylos. Both were related.

Cambodia currently has no clones in the Galaxy. It has 18 relatives in the Galaxy.

The list of genetic relatives is ordered in descending relatedness. If a number appears to the right of the variety name, that denotes the number of clones of that variety that are currently in the Phylos Galaxy.

Phylos data is completely and totally unreliable. When a user/submitter can specify the "name brand" of cannabis they are submitting and it's taken at face value to be 100% correct, who are you going to believe????

I could submit a sample of my 25 plus year IBL NL, say it's THH and who's to say it's not???? The Phylos DNA data is comparing other unknown, _unverified_ genotypes submitted as Hz with what I'm submitting. Just because it doesn't match up with what other people have submitted as Hz doesn't mean it's not Hayes because who really knows that what they submitted was true Hz.

The first time I saw the wide and diverse, yet _totally_ unrelated lineages of supposed NL's submitted on Phylos, I knew it was going to be complete bullshit.

 

[Prs2xs]

Phylos data is completely and totally unreliable. When a user/submitter can specify the "name brand" of cannabis they are submitting and it's taken at face value to be 100% correct, who are you going to believe????

I could submit a sample of my 25 plus year IBL NL, say it's THH and who's to say it's not???? The Phylos DNA data is comparing other unknown, _unverified_ genotypes submitted as Hz with what I'm submitting. Just because it doesn't match up with what other people have submitted as Hz doesn't mean it's not Hayes because who really knows that what they submitted was true Hz.

The first time I saw the wide and diverse, yet _totally_ unrelated lineages of supposed NL's submitted on Phylos, I knew it was going to be complete bullshit.

I agree 100%. Who is to say that ANY of the strains in their database are what they say they are?

 

[Genghis Kush.]

I agree 100%. Who is to say that ANY of the strains in their database are what they say they are?

probably safe to assume that the 92 samples of OG kush that match up are what they say they are

 

[PC 151]

I had the chance to try some weed in rural Jalisco in 1988. It was 'creeper' weed. I smoked the joint while by myself on the roof of the house I was staying in. Thought to myself, "Man, this is bunk..." then it hit me. I was up among the clouds. Very nice. I do not believe that weed had indica aspects. I was also told that before the US put $ behind it, the fields were grown openly.


Funny aside... I was just learning about cannabis then, and learning Spanish. I wanted to get some seeds, only the best. I kept asking locals if they could give me some seeds from their 'best sinsemilla'... finally one of them who spoke more English explained why no one had any seeds from 'sinsemilla'...

 

[53grayeyes]

Michoafghani lol

Mango Lights, from Sinaloa wrote :

"Hola, pues he cultivado por un par de décadas aquí en México. Les puedo comentar que aún se consigue "landrace" o Sativa Pura Mexicana comercial. No se porque se dice que ya no existen, claro que si. La mayoría de la mota comercial en el DF sigue siendo la sativa de hace 30 años. Poco ha cambiado en ese aspecto, con la hierba "comercial" para las masas.. En lo que si ha cambiado mucho es con la Mota de calidad, ahora ya está inundado el mercado con Mota Holandesa Indica OG Kush de cultivo Interior. Hace 20 años, se conseguía la famosa Lima-Limón-Zorrilluda, una sativa que sabía a limón y también a Skunk, o la "Michoafghani", una Indica combinada con alguna Sativa que resultaba en algo exquisito. En realidad es difícil hablar de "nombres" hace 25 años no existía ese concepto, pero la Mota "Calidad de Exportación" a mi forma de ver, estaba hibridizada con Indicas en cultivos Outdoor masivos,, y provenía de Michoacán. Ok ahora, con conocimiento de causa les debo orientar con algunos conceptos: Las Sativas puras se dan predominantemente en el sur, es decir donde el fotoperiodo es tropical como Oaxaca, Chiapas o Guerrero, a partir de Michoacán, hacia el norte (Jalisco, Nayarit, Sinaloa y Chihuahua), predominan mas los híbridos con Indicas, ya que el país es dividido por el Trópico de Cáncer, al sur Sativas, al Norte Sativas mezcladas con Indicas. Hablando de lo que les interesa, que son las Sativas Puras, en mi experiencia lo que llega aqui al DF y con 25 años autocultivando, quiero ver el dia que me salga una planta Sativa que sepa a Skunk, si quieren saber algo distintivo de una Mexicana Sativa es que siempre saben a fruta (siempre y cuando estén bien cultivadas). Dentro del aspecto frutoso, hay tendencias a pino, mango, mandarina, naranja y limón, incluso alguna vez tuve una que sabía a miel de abeja, como azúcar. Pero jamás a hashish o a skunk. La mejor Mota que vi en mi vida, fue hace 23 años, mi conecte traía una mota de Michoacán, eran colas gigantes del tamaño de un brazo, anchas, sinsemilla, con cristales y pelos rojos gigantes, sabor a mandarina-skunk, simplemente superior a cualquier cosa que haya fumado o visto en 25 años, Claramente era una Sativa/Indica superior, nosotros le llamamos la "fuego" mas adelante investigué y supe que en ese entonces los cultivadores le llamaban la "Micho-Afghani". Insisitiendo con el mito de que las Sativas puras han desaparecido, que es una falácea, aquí en México se cultiva Mota de dos tipos: la comercial que siguen siendo las Sativas que todos desean en Europa y que creen extintas, y la Mota de Exportación que es Hydro Holandesa, Lo que desaparece son los híbridos gloriosos de los 80´s de las mejores Sativas con las mejores Afghanis y Kush, esos primeros experimentos fueron la máxima expresión de la Cannabis. Así que no se espanten, si desean semillas, de Mexicana pura, aquí hay de sobra, se las envio por correo, (ustedes pagan el envío) de todas formas las tiro a la basura, jajaja. Hace poco me topé con un ejemplar rarísimo, que podría ser la Purple Zacatecas, en mi vida había visto una Sativa tan morada, anexo fotos mas adelante. Tenía un sabor dulce casi a miel. Con Respecto a la Aca Gold, para mi que es un mito, o no me tocó conocerla porque es muy antigua, la hierba que he fumado en Acapulco es de pésima calidad, con los mismos genes caducos de la Sierra de Atoyac de hace 40 años, la Aca Gold debió haber sido en realidad alguna Lima Limón.
Mango


Las Sativas puras de los 70´s del sur, casi no han cambiado y en su defecto ha disminuido su potencia. Los cultivadores son necios e ignorantes, insisten en seguir plantando lo mismo (Guerrero), cuando hay estados que si han evolucionado (Mich, Sin, Chih) sus cultivos con Híbridos en los 80´s y ahora actualmente con Hydro. Solamente en el Sur se encontrarán Sativas puras, en el norte lo veo difícil por la extensa hibridización que se llevó a cabo en los 80's cuando se producía la Marihuana con "Calidad de Exportación" a los Estados Unidos. Los plantíos mas grandes de sinsemilla del mundo existieron o existen aun en la sierra de Sinloa y Chihuahua. Toda la Sativa que llega al DF es del sur y landrace, no pregunten nombres porfavor. Para mi dentro de las Sativas puras la holy-grail de la hierba Mexicana, sin duda es la Lima Limon, Verde Limón, son lo mismo y es de Sinaloa, los gringos le llaman "Sinaloa Green". Una mezcla de sabor mango con zorrillo, exquisito. Y como comentaba, la época gloriosa Ochentera de los híbridos de exportación cuando se mezclaron la Sativa Colombiana, la Lima Limón, con Afghani No1 que produjo la Michoafghani, que fue la mejor marihuana natural de plantío que el mundo haya conocido. Pero ni enterados los pinches Gringos o Los Holandeses como el puto del Arjan que se siente el muy verga el babosoito, "El Rey de la Marihuana" si como no pendejo, date una vuelta para que te de tus clasesitas



Aunque no comprendo la histeria por las landraces si en realidad son hierba de calidad regular, tirándole a baja. La única Landrace detectable a mi criterio sería lo que quedó de la Aca Gold, que hoy en dia es la hierba mas horrible y asquerosa que conozco, viví en Acapulco un tiempo y jamás fume nada bueno, puro tabique aplastado "Golden" que te coloca 10 minutos y el resto del dia como si fuera tabaco. Mi teoría es que mientras mas al norte se va, mejor es la calidad de la hierba, aunque en Oaxaca si me tocaron colas gigantes verdes de sativa. Para mi lo mas feito viene de Guerrero. Lo mejor sin duda Michoacán y Sinaloa. La hierba sativa que inunda al df son colas aplastadas con semilla, sativas de Guerrero y Oax, si las planto, se mejora mucho la calidad. Lo que son las cosas, ustedes desean sativas puras y a mi ya me tienen harto, jajaja, yo busco lo que no hay aquí, que son híbridos o indicas. Dicen lo jipis viejos que existía una PopoBlue del estado de Puebla, es posible que la haya probado alguna vez, sabía a rosas y ponía como si tuviera LSD. y También en el estado de México se cultivó muy buena hierba, en Zacazonapan y Nanchititla, tierra caliente, colas gigantes de indica sativa, eso fué hace 20 años, las épocas de oro. Recuerdo que íbamos a Ixtapan de la Sal y nos daban unos huatos enormes, con unas colas verdes enormes con un olor a pino frutoso de otro planeta. Eso ya no existe, solo siguen las landraces mediocres con genes caducos

Originally Posted by Mango Light View Post
Although I don't understand the hysteria about landraces if they are really regular quality weed, leaning towards low. The only detectable Landrace in my opinion would be what is left of Aca Gold, which today is the most horrible and disgusting weed I know. I lived in Acapulco for a while and never smoked anything good, just crushed "Golden" brick that gets you high for 10 minutes and the rest of the day as if it were tobacco. My theory is that the further north you go, the better the quality of the weed, although in Oaxaca I did get giant green sativa colas. For me the ugliest comes from Guerrero. The best without a doubt Michoacán and Sinaloa. The sativa weed that floods Mexico City is crushed colas with seeds, sativas from Guerrero and Oaxaca, if I plant them, the quality improves a lot. The way things are, you want pure sativas and I'm fed up with them, hahaha, I look for what's not here, which are hybrids or indicas. Old hippies say that there was a PopoBlue from the state of Puebla, I may have tried it once, it tasted like roses and it made me feel like I had LSD. And also in the state of Mexico, very good weed was grown, in Zacazonapan and Nanchititla, hot land, giant colas of indica sativa, that was 20 years ago, the golden times. I remember that we went to Ixtapan de la Sal and they gave us huge huatos, with huge green colas with a fruity pine smell from another planet. That doesn't exist anymore, only mediocre landraces with outdated genes that everyone wants remain. (Not me)


Not all Mexican landraces are tropical with thin leaves. I have seen some with slightly wider leaves and darker green, without being indica. The same species can vary over the years with a difference in cultivation of 1000-1500m. There are two height lines or cultivation zones: from 500 to 1000 m high (first massif of the western sierra where the thinner and more tropical leaves grow) and the second massif of the sierra or further south, which is the neovolcanic axis, where it is planted at a higher altitude, let's say from 1500 to 3000 meters, where the thick leaf was adapted more from the same original species. The origin of the Mexican weed is apparently Sativa from India and Thai, speaking of more than 60-100 years ago. The Chinese introduced it to Sinaloa. The purple variety that I cultivated had nothing indica about it, except for the appearance, but the flavor and the high were sativa. Nice photos Glennorch and I agree with the Paraquat, but that happened in the north, not in the south, where pure landraces are still abundant, which have been mixed together because the potency is still good, the Acapulco grass that comes down from the Sierra de Atoyac comes to mind, or all the Imón.

If one was interested he could review the first 5 pages of the Mexican thread. In those 5 pages are photos of the 'Michoafghani' referenced here along with dates the photos were published.

 

[H e d g e]

What disappears are the glorious hybrids of the 80's of the best Sativas with the best Afghanis and Kush, those first experiments were the maximum expression of the Cannabis.

The best Mota I ever saw in my life, was 23 years ago, my conecte brought a mota from Michoacan, they were giant colas the size of an arm, wide, sinsemilla, with crystals and giant red hairs, tangerine-skunk flavor, simply superior to anything I have smoked or seen in 25 years, it was clearly a superior Sativa/Indica, we called it the "fire" later I investigated and learned that at that time the growers called it the "Micho-Afghani"

20 years ago, you could get the famous Lemon-Lime-Zorrilluda, a sativa that tasted like lemon and also like Skunk, or the "Michoafghani", an Indica combined with some Sativa that resulted in something exquisite.

The thread could have been titled ‘what year were skunk hybrids introduced to Mexico’.

My guess is that the plants were always moved around but were easily absorbed and disappeared into native landraces until industrial hemp and skunk were introduced.

My experience was that the first outcross from landrace to skunk produced incredible plants that couldn’t be found again in later generations and since then the landraces are not nearly as good as they were before the introduction of skunk genetics, the diversity of cannabinoids and stronger agonists like thcp were lost/destroyed in the native population.

Already before skunk there was an issue with industrial hemp contamination producing high cbd plants that was becoming more common in landrace populations but it was easier to select away from because the plants were duds.

People selected for skunk hybrids but the improvement was short lived and it had a deleterious effect in later generations which is why all that is available now has the same boring couch lock zombie effect unless very carefully progeny tested or back crossed to a landrace that is uncontaminated by skunk or hemp which are now critically endangered so not easy to find.

 

[53grayeyes]

If you really want the real thing then it is found with the abuelos and abuelas back in the country. They don't just hand it out. It takes a smooth talker like my friend elchischas to get them to part with a little of the seed. And to know what is in your hand.

A fine example is Huixtepec which was found in the border area of Guererro/Oaxaca. Finding these strains is his passion.