Wanna Ask The Old Farts A Question?

[Pineydoobey]

Another question for Hempcat, and others...

I posted this on a strain thread...

I've just gotten a couple SLH beans for the next run, and reading this thread I have a question...
How is it that one particular strain (in this case SLH) can have pheno's that are both indica dom and sativa dom? Wouldn't dominance run thru the strain? I've only read a little about breeding but I don't remember reading that a stabilized strain would produce pheno's with varying dominance.

Any input?

Picked this information up in biology.

Basically genes are either dominant or recessive. When two organisms breed the deck is shuffled so to speak and the outcome is somewhat uniform in the sense that the plants are basically the same if they are the same phenotype. If they are not the same phenotype however, the differences can be dramatic.

The chart below explains it somewhat...
(The chart is not coming out right so just move the top R r over a little and you can see how the link up)
R r

R RR Rr
r Rr rr

Basically as you can see there are similarities in all 4 of the possible phenotypes. The fact they are "R" When compared closer we see there are some that are a pure breed, or hybrid (the "RR" and "rr") which when breed with the same offspring ("RR" with "RR" or "rr" with "rr") will always produce this result. And then there are the more common phenotypes which contain both genes and when breed can produce any number of results.

To put it into layman's terms:
The seeds you are growing have not been hybridized to the point that you will get only one phenotype every time. As far as I know guaranteeing this 100% is impossible. But each time you make a new generation of hybrid seeds you further increase the odds of getting a plant with those same traits.

Similar to that of humans. Both my parents have brown eyes and brown hair. My brother and I on the other hand have blue eyes and blonde hair. The odds of this happening 2 times from the same parents such as mine is very slim. Simply because the blue eye gene as well as the blonde hair gene are both recessive genes.

If I were to mate with a female with the same recessive genes present the chance to have a child with the same traits would be further increased.

If I were to do the same with a female carrying the dominant brown or black hair color gene the chance decreases.

Hope that helps

-Pine

 

[ericcalif]

Picked this information up in biology.

Basically genes are either dominant or recessive. When two organisms breed the deck is shuffled so to speak and the outcome is somewhat uniform in the sense that the plants are basically the same if they are the same phenotype. If they are not the same phenotype however, the differences can be dramatic.

The chart below explains it somewhat...
(The chart is not coming out right so just move the top R r over a little and you can see how the link up)
R r

R RR Rr
r Rr rr

Basically as you can see there are similarities in all 4 of the possible phenotypes. The fact they are "R" When compared closer we see there are some that are a pure breed, or hybrid (the "RR" and "rr") which when breed with the same offspring ("RR" with "RR" or "rr" with "rr") will always produce this result. And then there are the more common phenotypes which contain both genes and when breed can produce any number of results.

To put it into layman's terms:
The seeds you are growing have not been hybridized to the point that you will get only one phenotype every time. As far as I know guaranteeing this 100% is impossible. But each time you make a new generation of hybrid seeds you further increase the odds of getting a plant with those same traits.

Similar to that of humans. Both my parents have brown eyes and brown hair. My brother and I on the other hand have blue eyes and blonde hair. The odds of this happening 2 times from the same parents such as mine is very slim. Simply because the blue eye gene as well as the blonde hair gene are both recessive genes.

If I were to mate with a female with the same recessive genes present the chance to have a child with the same traits would be further increased.

If I were to do the same with a female carrying the dominant brown or black hair color gene the chance decreases.

Hope that helps

-Pine

Hey Pine,
Thanks for your response, maybe I didn't quite phrase it correctly though. I vaguely recall what you said from HS biology. It sounded like a description of how traits can be expressed in offspring.
This question came from a thread I posted on about Super Lemon Haze, where there were comments about planting some seeds, all supposedly from the same strain (SLH) and some were indica dominate and some where sativa dominate. Which led me to ask if that variation was possible within the same strain or breed. As opposed to variations such as what you described like brown hair and black hair. I always thought those related to phenotype.
Does that make sense?

 

[HempKat]

Thank you very much HempKat.
So it's confirmed... . As far as I understand (i'm not english) it's better, in this case, to change the lenght of the lights period and not the dark period. I didn't do anything yet, so this afternoon I will set my timers on one hour before at the strart up(lights on) , after 12 hours dark for 12 hours, and so on.

Yeah just wait until lights on and move the timer's setting to the new time and then that should be it. Good luck with your grow and feel free to ask any other questions that come up as your grow progresses.

 

[HempKat]

Hey, HK
I was wonderin if you have any input on a technique a friend recently told me about... They said I should wait till I think they r ready, and chop all the tops and let the canopy ripen for another week.

Normally I wouldnt consider this, but the plants i have this round have some huge main colas and slightly underdeveloped canopy flowers. I'm wondering if you have used this method and if so how well it works...

Heres my canopy im considering for the method(the 2 in the foreground), they are GDP:

Yeah, I've done that. I don't know that I'd really call it a method or technique. I call it a split harvest, myself.

There's nothing special to it, basically the canopy has blocked the light or the buds in question were a bit too far from the light because the plant was tall and the buds were low on the plant. So you cut off the upper growth, lower the light if appropriate (it should be appropriate since you should have just removed the top half of the plant) and then just give them another week or two to fatten up. They won't get anywhere near as big as the buds you harvested already but they will fatten up.

Your crop looks pretty good by the way.

 

[HempKat]

I'm looking for some information on generators and growing with them.
Well generating the power used to grow with them
I'm trying to pick the safest route for growing and I'm pretty much dead set on this method.
Any information would be much appreciated.

If you want to make this thread a little less crowded you can stop by mine and deposit your 2¢

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=166710

Well using a generator is definately a tempting idea because one can have their grow and yet be off the grid, so basically your grow can be virtually anywhere. They aren't ideal though for a few reasons.

One problem is that most are noisey and could draw attention to you in a typical residential neighborhood setting.

Another problem is that since it's your only power source usually someone really should be around at all times in case it needs more fuel or stops running for some reason.

Still another problem is that one sufficient for most grows is going to be pretty expensive.

None of those problems are insurmountable though, you just need to plan things out carefully with avoiding those problems in mind. I've yet to grow using one though so I'm just speaking from things I've heard.

 

[Cindiwaa]

Take a look at this thread...

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=112662

Part way down on that first page is a chart that is a great guideline.
General rule I use is closer the better, without burning leaves. Watch your plants reaction, that's a good approach.

I think I have looked at that before. For a 1000 watt HPS the range is 10 inches to 36. I could handle something with maybe 6 point spread but 16 point spread seems like alot to me. Actualy canopies aren't ususally flat anyways so I guess it all works out in the end. Unfortunatly once you burn the crap outta you plants its a slow recovery. I guess thats why it takes so long to become a master grower. Thanks for the info.

 

[HempKat]

lights, how far above canopy? I mean if a 1000 watt light was like 80 degrees would you put it inches from the canopy? so a regular hps would be what? is it 12 inches? 18? 24? Does it depend on the plant? is there a sweet spot in the middle?

How far depends on two things mainly. The most important thing is how strong, the stronger the light the further it needs to be from the plant. The other thing is if it is air cooled or not using something like a cool tube or a air cooled hood (a hood that's closed off and with a fan blowing air thru it to remove the heat). If it is air cooled then you can get closer then the reccommended distance.

The recommended distance to have a HID above your canopy is:

400W = 12"
600W = 18"
1000W = 24"

Now if you have an air cooled light then like I said you can get closer because the heat is less but heat isn't the only consideration. Intensity is another factor and there is a point where the light can be so close the intensity of it at that distance can cause light stress aka bleaching which destroys the chloraphyll in the affected areas damaging the plant's ability to convert light to food. This aspect of things will be more determined by strain. Sativas for example tend to originate from equatorial regions where the sun is much more intense so they could probably handle a light being close better then Indica's that tend to come from regions where the light is less intense.

If a 1000W was just 80 degrees F putting it just inches from the canopy is very doable but you'll still have to worry about the intensity. Alas the only way a 1000W is only going to be 80 degrees is if it's air cooled. Uncooled, at the surface of the bulb they're probably in the ballpark of 500 degrees maybe even more. I'm not sure of the exact temp but just brushing your hand against a hot bulb for a second is enough to cause a 3rd degree burn.

 

[HempKat]

Another question for Hempcat, and others...

I posted this on a strain thread...

I've just gotten a couple SLH beans for the next run, and reading this thread I have a question...
How is it that one particular strain (in this case SLH) can have pheno's that are both indica dom and sativa dom? Wouldn't dominance run thru the strain? I've only read a little about breeding but I don't remember reading that a stabilized strain would produce pheno's with varying dominance.

Any input?

Well the way it happens is like this, you make a cross, let's say the father is sativa and the mother is indica. In the first batch of seeds you'll see alot of variation as some seeds will be more like the father and some will be more like the mother. As you breed additional generations within that cross strain you created the variations will be fewer and the characteristics will stabilize in accordence to what phenotypes you use as parents. Now even in a stabilized strain you can still see variations, it's just that you'll see it less often, maybe one out of 1000 seeds might produce a plant that is different in some way from the others. This happens the same way it does in humans, recessive genes.

 

[ridingsolo]

Quick question. I've noticed that when my seedlings' soil starts getting a little dry they show severe over-fert. symptoms, but if I keep them really wet they look really healthy. How does the ammount of water in the soil effect nutrient uptake, and since the potting soil I'm using is enriched, should I change soil to an non-enriched soil so I can let the roots breathe a little more? I've just been fighting an uphill nutrient battle lately it seems...

 

[HempKat]

Hey Pine,
Thanks for your response, maybe I didn't quite phrase it correctly though. I vaguely recall what you said from HS biology. It sounded like a description of how traits can be expressed in offspring.
This question came from a thread I posted on about Super Lemon Haze, where there were comments about planting some seeds, all supposedly from the same strain (SLH) and some were indica dominate and some where sativa dominate. Which led me to ask if that variation was possible within the same strain or breed. As opposed to variations such as what you described like brown hair and black hair. I always thought those related to phenotype.
Does that make sense?

Another thing to keep in mind when hearing something second or third hand is, just how much does the person you're hearing this from really know? I mean what makes him say one is sativa dom and another is indica dom? Some might conclude this based on height, sativas tend to be taller and Indicas tend to be shorter. What if the height difference the person saw to make them say one is sativa dom and one is indica dom, was actually caused by a problem in the root zone of the smaller plant?

 

[HempKat]

I think I have looked at that before. For a 1000 watt HPS the range is 10 inches to 36. I could handle something with maybe 6 point spread but 16 point spread seems like alot to me. Actualy canopies aren't ususally flat anyways so I guess it all works out in the end. Unfortunatly once you burn the crap outta you plants its a slow recovery. I guess thats why it takes so long to become a master grower. Thanks for the info.

That chart is a little misleading in that there is nothing indicating at what point the light needs to be air cooled. I don't care what strain you are growing, unless you're growing in a freezer to control temps there is no way you're going to have a 1000W light 10 inches above a plant without damaging the plant unless the light itself is air cooled.

The numbers I gave in an earlier post is based on non air cooled lights by the way.

 

[HempKat]

Quick question. I've noticed that when my seedlings' soil starts getting a little dry they show severe over-fert. symptoms, but if I keep them really wet they look really healthy. How does the ammount of water in the soil effect nutrient uptake, and since the potting soil I'm using is enriched, should I change soil to an non-enriched soil so I can let the roots breathe a little more? I've just been fighting an uphill nutrient battle lately it seems...

Well most seedlings can handle your typical enriched potting soil but beyond that they should not be given additional fertalizer until they show signs of a deficiency which usually takes 3 weeks to a month from when the seed sprouts. Some folks do like to use unenriched soil for seedlings but it really shouldn't be necessary unless you're talking a strain known for being nutrient sensitive.

Now as far as what you're seeing when the soil dries, either it's something you're adding to the water, something that's already in the water or what you are seeing isn't over-fert. If you're using plain water it shouldn't cause enriched soil to release enough fert to burn seedlings. If the water has something in it or you've added something then you can possibly experience over fert. One such addition that many growers use is molasses. Molasses can be a beneficial supplement but it does have some nutrients in it and it has the ability to pull other nutrients out of the soil quicker. So it could in theory take that enriched soil that's supposed to feed the plants up to 3 months and pull the nutrients out quicker then intended giving the plants a hotter dose of nutrients then just plain water would do.

The amount of water in the soil shouldn't effect nutrient uptake like you're describing. Having lots of water in the soil and keeping it wet should essentially smoother the roots in time and cause root rot.

I'm wondering if what you are seeing is more from letting the pots the seedlings are in get too dry? If you let them get too dry then that will case alot of problems although none of the problems should look like over fert.

 

[gabjaz]

Hello Experts,

Quick question. Does this manicuring look alright? I know there really isn't just one right way, but am I leaving on too much?



Thanks,
Gabs

 

[Gold123]

Picked this information up in biology.

Basically genes are either dominant or recessive. When two organisms breed the deck is shuffled so to speak and the outcome is somewhat uniform in the sense that the plants are basically the same if they are the same phenotype. If they are not the same phenotype however, the differences can be dramatic.

The chart below explains it somewhat...
(The chart is not coming out right so just move the top R r over a little and you can see how the link up)
R r

R RR Rr
r Rr rr

Basically as you can see there are similarities in all 4 of the possible phenotypes. The fact they are "R" When compared closer we see there are some that are a pure breed, or hybrid (the "RR" and "rr") which when breed with the same offspring ("RR" with "RR" or "rr" with "rr") will always produce this result. And then there are the more common phenotypes which contain both genes and when breed can produce any number of results.

To put it into layman's terms:
The seeds you are growing have not been hybridized to the point that you will get only one phenotype every time. As far as I know guaranteeing this 100% is impossible. But each time you make a new generation of hybrid seeds you further increase the odds of getting a plant with those same traits.

Similar to that of humans. Both my parents have brown eyes and brown hair. My brother and I on the other hand have blue eyes and blonde hair. The odds of this happening 2 times from the same parents such as mine is very slim. Simply because the blue eye gene as well as the blonde hair gene are both recessive genes.

If I were to mate with a female with the same recessive genes present the chance to have a child with the same traits would be further increased.

If I were to do the same with a female carrying the dominant brown or black hair color gene the chance decreases.

Hope that helps

-Pine

Are you sure the milk mans not your father?

 

[Pineydoobey]

Well using a generator is definately a tempting idea because one can have their grow and yet be off the grid, so basically your grow can be virtually anywhere. They aren't ideal though for a few reasons.

One problem is that most are noisey and could draw attention to you in a typical residential neighborhood setting.

Another problem is that since it's your only power source usually someone really should be around at all times in case it needs more fuel or stops running for some reason.

Still another problem is that one sufficient for most grows is going to be pretty expensive.

None of those problems are insurmountable though, you just need to plan things out carefully with avoiding those problems in mind. I've yet to grow using one though so I'm just speaking from things I've heard.

Yea this grow I'm planning will have about a 100k budget if all goes according to plan. It's a few years out but why not get started, IMO.

I'm basically thinking the generator will go inside, with an exhaust leading to the outside. Probably leading into some box to filter/muffle the odor/sound. Since the generator is inside I'll have some kind of blower to keep the room air at least somewhat cool.

One of my biggest concerns as you stated, is noise. I know they are loud but I'm convinced with enough time and money invested I could soundproof a garage to absorb the sound. Further the house is on almost an acre of land so with some sort of privacy fence/hedge I'm sure the sound will be surpassed by passing traffic, wind, and the like.

If you come across anyone with experience or knowledge in this field please point them my way.

Thanks
-Pine

Hey Pine,
Thanks for your response, maybe I didn't quite phrase it correctly though. I vaguely recall what you said from HS biology. It sounded like a description of how traits can be expressed in offspring.
This question came from a thread I posted on about Super Lemon Haze, where there were comments about planting some seeds, all supposedly from the same strain (SLH) and some were indica dominate and some where sativa dominate. Which led me to ask if that variation was possible within the same strain or breed. As opposed to variations such as what you described like brown hair and black hair. I always thought those related to phenotype.
Does that make sense?

No problem Eric

Glad I've got you thinking. I love to bounce idea's off of other people!!! Now I'm thinking!!!

In plants I think it may work a little differently than I described earlier.

I would attribute Indica and Sativa to being a race if you will, of the cannabis.... species?

So maybe since you are planting from seed there is still the possibility that the plant will be either indica or sativa dominant because the parents somewhere along the line passed on the gene?

Hope we can get this figured out

-Pine

Hello Experts,

Quick question. Does this manicuring look alright? I know there really isn't just one right way, but am I leaving on too much?



Thanks,
Gabs

I wouldn't change a thing Gabjaz.

I love the trich production on those leaves *Drool* Call them sugar leaves.

I left the leaves like that on my first harvest I did recently. IMO it has more THC on it than a bowl of regs
And when stored it seems to add protection to the resin glands covered by them.

2¢
-Pine

Are you sure the milk mans not your father?

I knew as soon as I posted and re-read that someone would make that comment

Thanks for reading

 

[Fat J]

Thx 4 the advice - I think ill try the "split harvest" non-technique ;-) cant move the light down, but the lowers are ripening slightly slower, so it cant hurt just wanted 2 run it by the old farts first ^.^

One idea Piney (not tryin 2 step on toes) you may want to put some kind of power conditioner on the output of the gen as it can fluctuate a lot and cause u to blow caps in ur bal/blow lamps early. Ideally I'd say make a decent sized battery array in-between the gan/lights, just in case u need to shut down the gen for a min or 2 or if jahforbid - theres an issue. Sounds interesting tho, lemme know if u have a thread following it ^.^

 

[Pineydoobey]

Fat J
You're by no means stepping on toes. I want input like this from anyone. Even if you have the wackiest idea's I want to hear them!

And btw I'm no old fart, more like a young grasshoppa. (Hope I can still post here) None the less the "Split-harvest" non-technique worked for my friend and I.

I was throwing that idea around with my friend (The one about the battery bank) who is going to invest in the op with me. He knows a lot about electricity on account of his dad's an electrician. He mentioned something about the generator making DC and switching it over to AC (I'm speaking soulley from memory so don't take my word for it) installing a breaker box and adding circuits. I guess this would make it substantially safer and more efficient. We don't want to use too many amps.

There is a thread to go with this but it's really only a hypothetical thing atm. We are serious about doing this so if you stay tuned for about 2 years then you will actually see some results.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=166710
Stop by sometime. Love to get the thread going and bounce some idea's off of you. This could spawn a whole knew style of growing. One that's safer and more environmentally friendly for everyone.

-Pine

 

[gabjaz]

Thank you Pine~ I really have no idea what the heck I'm doing...Just taking it one step at a time... You guys are great! I can't thank you enough.. I do this then second guess myself and I just don't want to blow it at this point!

Yippy! Also, today I made canna butter.. It looks like the picture from the recipe I followed (from icmag).. So tomorrow I'll be baking something up....

This is fun..
gabs

 

[Pineydoobey]

Gabjaz

My pleasure friend.

I know exactly what you mean about second guessing. When I cut the lower branches off of my plant and saw it next to my friends I felt like I had butchered someones hair. lol

But come flowering time the huge buddies payed off and I'm glad I did it.

A little word of advice about the not messing it up part.

The cure is the hardest part but god, it's worth it. By hardest I mean it's hard to let good weed sit. Don't try to move things along to quickly. If I had any other weed to smoke I would have let mine sit for 6 months easy. But sadly I didn't. Now I regret not getting curing under my belt. Mainly because I've never smoked weed I personally cured. Probably more importantly though is the fact that it burns so much better.

Looking back at things I wish I would have tried water curing. I've never seen anything bad about it and if you're not planning on selling it then I see no reason not to do it. Unless you like pretty looking weed.

But then again who doesn't.

-Pine

P.S. I've always wanted to make some kind of butter or oil. I love pasta and can't imagine anything that could make it better other than butter. Say that five times fast.

*Better other than butter* Better other than butter*

 

[ericcalif]

Well the way it happens is like this, you make a cross, let's say the father is sativa and the mother is indica. In the first batch of seeds you'll see alot of variation as some seeds will be more like the father and some will be more like the mother. As you breed additional generations within that cross strain you created the variations will be fewer and the characteristics will stabilize in accordence to what phenotypes you use as parents. Now even in a stabilized strain you can still see variations, it's just that you'll see it less often, maybe one out of 1000 seeds might produce a plant that is different in some way from the others. This happens the same way it does in humans, recessive genes.

I think I follow you there, I think that's how I understand it anyway.
In other words, traits (what I ascribe to phenotype) such as rate of growth, more or less branching, flower size, etc... vary according to the parents used for breeding. But the short answer is species dominance can vary too when both indica and sativa were used in the first (F1) hybrid?
I guess I assumed that he traits would vary, but indica or sativa dominance would stay the same over generations.

None of this is particularly important to me personally as far as my garden, but just curious. And hopefully others gain something from the back and forth.
Thanks again !