Vavilov, Afghan Sativas, and Uzbeki Giants

[PazVerdeRadical]

Hey gpig long time no see. Paz I cannot help but wonder about the placebo effect with cannabis. With psychoactives especially when judging subtle differences we must always be aware of how powerful the placebo effect is. In a way Sasha shulgin has been spending his whole career studying the placebo effect. This is what got him into psychedelics. He told of a story where he once was given some orange juice by a dr that he thought was spiked with a sedative. He exhibited symptoms of having taken a very strong sedative. It turned out he wasn't given anything. This is Shulgin the man who has taken more psychedelics than any man on the planet couldn't tell the difference between a placebo and a strong sedative. If shulgin can think he's taken something when he hasn't taken anything at all certainly many of us can read a strain description saying a plant is energetic and feel energized after smoking it without the herb directly causing us to feel energetic. I don't care how experienced of a smoker you are it can happen to you. Speaking of psychedelics I believe they can ptovide a more objective means for determining a few of the characteristics of a plant especially ceiling and tolerance since only the very best quality herb can effect you when you're tripping.

hola zamalito,
um... well, even before i knew what were the supposed effects of an indica variety as opposed to a sativa variety, i noticed some cannabis flowers made me either feel nice, alive and vibrant, while others had a very narcotic effect; so i cannot anchor your placebo theory to my experience at all. plus, i am not a chronic smoker, although i have had times lasting a few months where i have smoked every day. during these stages of smoking a lot, no matter what i smoked, the effect couldn't be 'categorized' easily due to have had built a tolerance...
your theory would be more plausible if instead of relying on the placebo effect to explain the differing effects of a variety of strains on people without a tolerance, you would consider the physical, mental and emotional state of a person when he takes cannabis. also, we cannot discard the whole thc and cannabinoid relationships simply because cannabis as a species is hard to sub-categorize.
also, just because someone has taken tons of psychedelics, doesn't make them experts, in the same way an alcoholic is not made a wine expert by default.

one love. peace.

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

But for these researchers and taxonomists who seek to categorize the Cannabis plant, the words "Indica" and "Sativa" have different meanings, each depending on which researcher is doing the investigation......

hello guineapig, that is the point i think too, it is merely a problem of semantics, or rather, a problem that arises because there is not an established dialectic within the subject of cannabis. this should of have been obvious simply by considering the title of the book from which SativaBelieva posted: The Species Problem in Cannabis, Science and Semantics.

one love. peace.

 

[zamalito]

Paz I agree with you. I have smoked quite a few indicas that I was expecting to be typical sedative and have consistently produced energetic effects and I've experienced the opposite with some sativas especially the more modern ones but there's quite a few sedative landrace sativas also. Panamanian and sour diesel never fail to put me to sleep. On an interesting note the zulu traditionally broke cannabis into two types sedative cannabis which was used for medicine and recreation and energetic cannabis which is used for celebration and before wartime. Then you take into account the placebo effect, the effect of mood set and setting and personal differences in brain chemistry and it gets quite complicated and is very difficult to get an objective grasp on unless you smoke a lot of the same strain over time. One thing that also I personally feel is true that does help us is that floral structure maturation pattern does seem to some degree be associated with the high.

Ok back on topic. Dubi you are correct about the current state of indica and sativa in central asia. However Vavilov while his definintion may have been different he did show to have knowledge of both indica and sativa. When he traveled afghanistan (and he did so very thoroughly) he did not find any cultivated indica for hashish or hemp. He did find some wild sativa. Also while some areas of pakistan and definitely north india may have a long history of cultivated indica (india is where linnaeus first used the name indica. I don't know the date.) However until vavilov discovered the wild afghans noone had found any wild ancestors to the north indian indicas linnaeus had discovered and it was thought to possibly be a cultigen species. Robert Clarke clearly states that areas like kashmir and chitral traditionally and consistently used wild sativas for hash production and did so well into the 20th century. These regions were being used by pakistani secret service to fund the mujahedeen so since afghan indicas were so much faster and better producers they very quickly became popular and made very nice hybrids with the traditionally used wild plants.

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

yeah getting a consistent effect from cannabis seems to be pretty elusive to say the least...

btw, i need to dig up some info in spanish posted not long ago in the cannabiscafe.net forum, about the possibility of cannabis fossils that would also place cannabis as native to south america... which would add more spice to the whole issue. peace!

 

[zamalito]

Yes please dig that up paz. Botanists have a dificult time explaining how cannabis got into mexico and south america so quickly. Though I like the story I personally never fully bought the one about the moorish members od cortez's crew that had escaped into michoacan and had brought some seeds they had goten on previous travels to central asia (pakistan?) to a tiny village with volcanic soil and getting the local people who were very adept with agriculture to grow these seeds. Though at the same time new plant species especially ones as useful as cannabis spred very rapidly to and from the new world. Peppers are strictly new world plants yet about 5 years after columbus' "discovery" (lol) peppers had incorporated themselves fully in east indian cuisine. On the other hand there is evidence people from the ancient wise and magnificent andean empires engaging in trade with various parts of asia and africa at a time when many europeans were living in caves going ooga booga to each other. In king ramses tomb (pharoah to all you bible fans) they have found tobacco (new world plant spred over north and south america) coca ( strictly andean new world plant) and hashish (central asian) I cannot remember if opium was present but that would be the least suprising of the bunch anyways. The test results of this are certain and it wouldn't be too suprising then if cannabis had gone back the other way. There's also reason (both very old video, film, and genetic evidence)to believe that the true native south americans were genetically and physically similar to the aborigine of australia. As the land bridge thawed the east asian people along with a diverse array of new animals and plants fungi and bacteria carried on their fur and in their stomaches and intestines came down through canada and evetually making it to south america. Since the native americans of asian descent had adapted to be very skilled hunters and warriors by developing adavnced weaponry and domesticated animals (dogs) they quickly and easily pushed the less technologically advanced ethnically aborigine people to the very southern tip of south america. In the 1930's or 40's (? ) an anthropoligist lived with a tribe of these people capturing them on film. Presently there are only two known ancestors of this tribe who genetically are half asian type native american and half aborigine type. A genetic test was done on them showing their encestry. The native americans who had crossed the land bridge later formed the very advanced mayan and incan empires.

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

zamalito, hello, ok, found it, here in spanish and i translated it for those who don't know spanish:

America
El cáñamo llegó a América de la mano de los primeros grupos humanos que colonizaron el continente. El hallazgo de ropas de cáñamo en tumbas de pueblos de América del Norte demuestra que el cannabis llegó a esas tierras mucho antes que los europeos (algo que niegan fanáticamente algunos historiadores norteamericanos). Además, en una isla del Caribe que aún no ha podido ser identificada, se documenta el primer cigarrillo de marihuana, el primer porro. En esta zona también se inventaron los puros de tabaco, y el proceso con el cannabis era similar: bastaba con secar juntas un fajo de hojas atadas. Para fumarlas tomaban una hoja del fajo y envolvían las demás en ella poniendo unas dentro de otras y apretándolas fuertemente (la primera mención de estos cigarrillos se encuentra en un informe español de 1561).

english:

Hemp arrived to America by the hand of the first human groups that colonized the continent. the finding of clothes made out of hemp in tombs of
native north American nations shows that cannabis arrived to those lands way before the Europeans (something that some north American historians fanatically deny)
Moreover, on an island of the Caribbean that has not been identified yet, it is documented the first marijuana cigarette, the first joint. on this region tobacco cigars were
invented, and the process with cannabis is similar: it was enough to dry a stack of leaves tied together, to smoke them a leaf was taken from the stack used it
to wrap more leaves from the stack (the first mention of these cigarettes is found on a Spanish record of 1561)."

Although it would be good to know where this information came from, the most "original" source of this information i know of is at: http://www.amec.org.es/historia.htm
it would be good to contact the guys running that website and ask whether they have the true sources with proper references.

Here´s some similar info though:

“In his study of Prehistoric Textile Art of Eastern United States (1891), Smithsonian Institute ethnologist W. H. Holmes showed that the ancient Mound-Builders utilized cannabis hemp. Hundreds of clay pipes, some containing cannabis residues and wrapped in hemp cloth, were found in the so-called Death Mask Mound of the Hopewell Mound Builders who lived circa 400 BC in modern Ohio. At one site in Morgan County, Tennessee, Holmes recovered large pieces of hemp fabric”

an interesting read http://www.rexresearch.com/hhist/hhicon~1.htm

What you say about coca and tobacco found in Egyptian tombs should be common knowledge, but hey, you know how it is...
i am fond of the thesis that ancient civilizations were not as technologically dumb as we have been led to believe...
conventional history is on trial on many good minds. we should add food of the gods and chariots of the gods to the reading list of our youngsters hehehe…

peace and health!.

 

[guineapig]

great info guys!!! I have heard that story about the Moorish Sailors and I always believed in it too.....and I always thought that Cannabis has been in North America for way longer than scientists think....and Africa too for that matter.....

Hopefully DNA research will shed some light on the subject......i hope....

This is my favorite thread!!! I'm gonna look for some primary source material so we can make this thread even stronger....

yer pal the guineapig

 

[zamalito]

I would say gracias paz but someone is gonna have to pick my jaw up off the floor first.

 

[Guest]

This really is a great thread. I am more interested in this than lookin at identicle pictures of everyones cindeezabub or whatever.....

I love history and i love growing, two of my favorite things are met in this subject and i thank you Zam for starting it, and all of the contributers for making the thread that much better.

I went ahead and added a link to my Sig to advertise. Hope this helps

 

[Redrooster]

Great stuff guys !

Great stuff guys !

Thanks for the info. Great stuff. Keep it coming.

RR.

 

[The Dopest]

Zamalito, im not interested as interested in my family history as mush as this thread has made me interested in cannabis history! you are THE man. Guinea Pig i never realized you were such a source of info either! dude this thread should be a mandatory read for newbies prior to registering at this or any other mj site. lol

thanks guys, this is what its all about right here!

 

[OG Royal Grower]

I never thought i would hear such intelligent converstation from a bunch of pot heads... haha just kidding this thread kicks ass!
Peace,
OGRoyalGrower

 

[Orangelazaris]

Hola Guinea! and co. I have been reading this thread for a few weeks now and finnaly got my registration back and i just wanted to say that i love it.


this thread has me thinking about a black domina/deep chunk cross i saw a while back...just casue BD has some similarly old landracce genes that have been wiped out and what a treat that smoke would be.


Best regards,

OL

 

[Orangelazaris]

I know i know DC is not a landrace but its from a unique and specific part of the world so there.

 

[- ezra -]

Zamalito - its great to read something a bit different and more interesting than most of the threads in the forums. You make very valuable contributions to the intelectual element of the community.

The classification of cannabis sub-species is obviously a difficult task and not a simple matter of deviding cultivars into 'sativa', 'indica', 'ruderalis'. As we look at the historical and anthropological aspects, the lines become blurred and the task of tracing the evolution of the sub-species is revealed as a complex puzzle. Understanding the origins and history of cannabis can help us to understand its multitude of manifestations today a well as recognise the value of landrace cultivars.

 

[OGDread]

cindeezabub

Yeah that cindyzabub sucks, now this blue cindyzabub I got.. thats the hit!
Good thread, I wonder if Dutch troopers will get some giant uzbeks seeds back from the war. That would make it good for something I guess.

 

[indicalover]

Why is Deep Chunk not a landrace? Has it ever been crossed with anything?

 

[Guest]

So Vavilov enters this Cradle of Cannabis Civilization and he finds an amazing
variety of Cannabis plants....one of the varieties he found he names "Kefiristanica"
because there used to be a region called "Kefiristan" which was populated by
people who trace their lineage to Alexander the Great.....Alexander the Great was
known to supply his soldiers with copious amounts of Cannabis to make them
march without feeling as much pain and under his rule the Cannabis plant thrived....
Unfortunately the Kefirs are extinct today, but when Vavilov explored the region
he still found traces of this ancient culture......i hope to find more info about this....

hiya, I am still in the process of reading this, however

Kafir is a word used by Muslims generally (it is Arabic) and refers to "non-believers" of any sort, in this instance a number of non-Muslim minorites in the Kafiristan area of Afghanistan near the border of Pakistan and next to the Hindu Kush

my point being that Muslims in Pakistan and Afghanistan continue to refer to this region as "Kafiristan" today, and it still has an ethnically and culturally distinct identity to the best of my knowledge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafiristan

Nurestan it seems is the accepted name

hope that is of use,

Namkha

edit: the point regarding just how cosmopolitan these areas were some considerable time ago is spot on. These trade routes would have been employed by ancient Buddhists, Zoroastrians, then later early Christians, and so many others; they might have been monks, merchants, soldiers, refugees - they would be from far and wide: ancient Greece, or Persia, areas of what are now modern China and India, Tibet and so on
these were extremely sophisticated places, back in 2000BC and earlier

edit edit: there are a number of ethnic minorities around these and other regions in the Himalayas and Westwards into Europe who continue to claim descendance from Alexander the Great and his men; it is not an uncommon phenomenon

 

[Chamba]

1 : interesting thread and theories!

2 : there are a number of ethnic minorities around these and other regions in the Himalayas and Westwards into Europe who continue to claim descendance from Alexander the Great and his men; it is not an uncommon phenomenon

it's the blue eyes that does it!..and in many cases they lived in remote areas in Afghanistan and were only recently (less than 100 years ago) forced under the sword (from being Animists) to Islam.....

read "An Unexpected Light, travels in Afghanistan" ..a wonderful book

3) if cannabis was carried with the first people to populate the Americas, then why is cannabis only found in a few very isolated digs?.......why wasn't natural American cannabis widespread throughout the continent prior the Spanish invasions?..esp considering how easily cannabis becomes feral as happened after WW2? My theory is that cannabis was introduced by Spanish and the very few samples of hemp cloth proven to be prior to the Spanish in the Americas were from the odd lost trading ship that made it that far by accident and luck..probably much in the same way that coca and tobacco were found buried in pyramids....but one wonders why tobacco and coca were brought back and not the dozens of unique vegetables native to the same area ( potatoes, tomatoes and others)

 

[Guest]

re. Cannabis in the Americas, that sounds more plausible to me too

the notion of an antiquated cigar sounds unlikely, given the enviornment

I can see that surviving in a desert, or ice, but in Jamaica?

is there a link Paz?