TWO S1 LINE PRODUCES MALES

[Tom Hill]

Chimera was speaking of a molecular marker/DNA sequence associated with the male of the species. This analysis is done in the lab and would be a much quicker way in attempting to get to the bottom of it. Do keep an eye out for pistils in these "males" though, they are usually present ime though may escape visual identification. I have found a good method is to dry and sift through the plant matter after you're done pollinating, are there any seeds when sifting through the aftermath is what you're looking for. I find them in both Haze and Deep Chunk sometimes when I'm collecting pollen for storage. Interestingly, both of these lines have traditionally produced a higher than 50/50 female offspring phenotype, over thousands of individuals grown.

Chimera, I used to lean towards contamination as well but this scenario is coming out of breeding projects that haven't been close to a Y in years, plus I'm running out of hypotheses Thanks for the kind words man, good to see you.

GMT, you're not allowed to talk about time and space in that manner after that whorled phylotaxy breeding experiment of yours, lol. Just kidding amigo, it's good to see you too. I'm not so sure it's as rigid as all that and I'm almost positive that the assumed lack of pistil production is often experimental error - these plants usually do produce pistils, if only a very few. Anyway, old plant, young science, should be interesting if he's willing to see what happens I'm interested in his findings.

Charlie, thank you for your very candid input brother it's always refreshing.-Tom

 

[Hammerhead]

DC has the hermie/nanner recessive trait no? I have one that had a few nanners I picked off so far no more have shown..

 

[Tom Hill]

I first noticed intersex plants with the DC line when I reproduced it indoors in '09, I never observed the trait prior to that in decades of growing it outdoors - but yes, it does appear to be there to some extent.

Interesting to me is that if you look at the sticky of this reproduction in my forum, you'll see that intersex "males" outweighed intersex females by a ratio of 4:1 I believe. Are these intersex males genetic females? Time will tell. -T

 

[Hammerhead]

Every Time I mention Im going to use my s1 males I get the book through at me lol

 

[Tom Hill]

Just tell them that from DJ Shorts reverse hermies to Breeder Steve's frosty males, man has likely been using them for decades/centuries/millennia, lol.

 

[Hammerhead]

lol I sure will. All of you have been a big help. Thank you Tom, Kaiki, Chimera....

 

[charlie garcia]

There is certain dominance/recesiveness on nanner traits, lines behave like that and may hide or reinforce such trait. Thus some reversals work awfully while others seem to be correct. Sure best way is to stress the ladies to hell to find a proper one to be used, we all know that. Its not good for me to work this lines unless of so much interest and/or there is not other way to maintain seeds or explore line itself with more individuals like in the case you have only a female clone representing the line. I believe they have this trait somewhere but results surprise you sometimes and a very high ratio of good females do excellent...or opposite, some cuts have to be discharged due clearly have increased this nanner trait so easely although it seemed to be so so minimal earlier. Not mean clearly intersexuals used, but some females which under strongest stress may show couple of bannanas if so and so far. But Ive heard so often about males found in feminised seeds here or there used with normal results in first instance. Or even a friend told me short ago about using a Panama/DC male from a fem population and with very good results in small populations.

Not contamination in this case, line is been reproduced several times and always same results. Fact is some ppl like Hammerhead were looking for males and usually you need to run lots of seeds to find them and have had not problems with females yet. What I know is that in my place some guys have cloned a few males found of Peyote and they never found female hairs up to now afaik. Would be interesting to ever look for male markers and see results. My data is not such large to tell for sure about this line in particular

Lets see Hammerhead how it goes. Stress them with lights, temperatures, high nutes doses, etc you know and lets follow results. If not female traits, lets see offspring
best
kaiki

 

[Hammerhead]

I just culled the other male I had from CSG GDP S1..It was a Hermie. Balls and pistils where present.. The PP male is doing fine no Pistils are showing yet. I will keep an eye on him for sure.

 

[Hammerhead]

Stressing the Lady's wont be easy im not use to doing that. I usually pamper my girls. I will try light leaks and then some temps

 

[Tom Hill]

Of course the GDP was a hermie, so is the PP, this is the the topic of the thread . If the PP does not throw a few hairs I'd be surprised. I would look upon a few pistils as expected rather than an end to the experiment. Two days ago you had males from fem seeds, I;m guessing you feel fairly comfortable in saying that most folk would have come to that same conclusion? Here's our chance to give pause to that notion, it's a ridiculous notion that has gone on far enough. Breed with one of these "males", I'll give you two marbles and a cookie to see what happens hehe, bring it.

 

[lbezphil2005]

This thread is solid gold and should be made a sticky in the breeding section, fellas - some brilliant stuff here! Thank you Tom, Charlie, Chimera, and Hammerhead for being, well, a hammerhead!! Keep up the great work - I've had a "male" s1 too, no hairs at all. Very nice specimen, haven't grown anything out that I bred with it yet, though! Good luck, hammerhead, will be following along with this project with great interest!

 

[paulo73]

Finally some Light is coming through.
Thank you Hammerhead, Tom Hill, Chimera, kaiki and all involved for opening the way for the ones behind.

 

[ojd]

hi hammerhead

just joining this thread as you seem to closed the gdp s1 thread

we not doubting you for a second,we would of just liked to see pics of these plants so we can see the extent of the hermie male etc for ourself
the pics you sent me has no pistils on it? it looks like a male to me
im not saying i dont belive you bro just didnt see any pistils myself

ive grown 31 of these fem seeds and not found any males or hermie
these can be efected by light leakes etdc but i know yours were just being sexed so that not the case

we are very interested in this thread for any more info found about males or hemie being found in fem seed

peace

 

[GMT]

Of course the GDP was a hermie, so is the PP, this is the the topic of the thread . If the PP does not throw a few hairs I'd be surprised. .

Exactly, there's more things wrong with the plant if it doesn't show a few pistils than if it does.

 

[Hammerhead]

I was under the impression that Charlie is using these males to make PP is this not correct?? The PP has not shown any pistils as of today. I will continue to look. If I do not find any should this plant be culled??. At the beginning of the conversation I thought the consensus was to do some test with these plants and see what happens now im reading why bother you already know what will happen. There seems to be allot of interest in these types of females?? Im already doing a seed run with the Querkel (GDP s1 X Querkel and PP s1x Querkel). I might as well do some with this female and see what the results are ?? the PP s1 "male" will be used to pollinate some of the branches on the s1 females as well as my Querkel female..

 

[Tom Hill]

Hi again Hammerhead,

I was under the impression that Charlie had used one of these plants at some point of the breeding process back up the line (?), but thought the PP seeds you got were the result of a regular reversal via STS, on an apparently non-intersex female. The theory is that she -as very many plants will- was masking some of these traits.

No don't cull the plant (well, unless you want to of course). I was only saying that I would expect to see some pistils because I do not believe them to be males. I suspect that most folks get as far as you have now, label it a male, cull it, then post online about how they got a male from a fem seedlot, which I do not believe to be the case.

If you do not find any pistils after an exhaustive search then it does get a bit more interesting and we could only glean more insight through testing. As Chimera pointed out, if offspring produced from the test show similar sex ratios as the parental line (vastly female, and/or female intersex), then it would lend weight to it not being a male after all, which is what I suspect.

We don't know how it will turn out though, only hypothesizing. Do some testing, shit I'll grow some of the seed, I want to know! -T

 

[trichrider]

...

 

[Hammerhead]

Thanks Tom for getting back to me. I will continue and do a few batches like I described in my previous post. Kaiki will need to clerify that. I tought he used a s1 male from the Bubba? no chems used..

 

[mofeta]

Great discussion! Would that all threads were as full of on-topic, thoughtful, troll-free discussion.

They're not males ime, but highly staminate intersex females. Cannabis plants (sex) are controlled first by the XY system, but secondly (expression) by (often environmentally triggered) modifying factors located on autosomes, or pseudoautosomal regions.

A female plant with a noted absence of masculine type modifiers can be said to be strongly female. When selfed her progeny will contain very few if any intersex individuals. The opposite type of plant (a female with a noted abundance of masculine type modifiers) -though they may be masked in the parent- will occasionally give rise upon recombination to what you're referring to in this thread. But they're not really males.

All plants born from gynoecious selections (born from female reversals) are females in regards to their sex chromosomes but express as females and intersex females of varying degrees (varying all the way to "it damn sure looks like a male to me") due to the presence/absence/activation of modifying factors.

This is in harmony with my thoughts on this matter.

Consider phenotypic sexual expression in humans. There are many conditions in which gender is mixed/confused. The causes range from aneuploidy of sex chromosomes to parthenogenesis to disruption of the "modifying factors" you mention.

The human condition that I believe to be analogous to the scenario you put forth is what used to be called testicular feminization, and is now referred to as androgen insensitivity.This is an inherited disorder, an x-linked recessive mutation(s) for the androgen receptor gene (in the vast majority of cases). There are varying degrees of expression of this condition, and CAIS, or complete androgen insensitivity is the most extreme.

XX individuals are basically unaffected by this condition, and are both genotypically and phenotypically female, and fertile.

With XY individuals though, it is a bizarre situation, especially when looking at cases of CAIS. These people are genotypically male, but phenotypically female. Usually they are indistinguishable from XX females when you just look at the outside of the person. In fact they may seem hyper-feminine, with large breasts and scant pubic and axillary hair. Many times these people are unaware that they have this until they fail to achieve menses, or try to have children and can't. They seek treatment for infertility and find out that instead of ovaries and uterus etc, their internal sexual anatomy consists of testes. This is of course by virtue of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome that causes the primordial gonads in the embryo/fetus to become testes.

This happens because although they have the karotype necessary for the formation of testes, their cells lack the ability to respond to androgens (like testosterone). As the androgens are what cause the masculinization of the external genitalia, the XY CAIS person will have female genitalia, and the secondary sexual characteristics will be feminine. The hyper-femininity of secondary characteristics I mentioned before is due to the presence of testes. The testes produce testosterone (sometimes huge amounts) in these people that, because of the androgen insensitivity, has no effect. Testosterone is converted to estrogen, though, through aromatization. This excess estrogen then enhances the expression of female phenotype. (This is by the way, the reason for the obsolete term testicular feminization. It was initially though that these people had abnormal testes that produced female hormones, it was later determined that the testes were normal, and that it was the androgen insensitivity and aromatization of testosterone that were the cause.)

Cannabis plants aren't humans, obviously, but the analogy lies in the effect of hormones/hormone receptors on phenotypic expression of sex. Maybe these phenotypically male plants from female selfing are insensitive to ethylene, or maybe hypersensitive to gibberellins.

I would be interested to see the results of treating one of these phenotypically male offspring of a selfed female with Ethephon or similar compound. If the plant refused to throw female flowers, or did so very reluctantly, I would suspect ethylene insensitivity.

This phenomenon is not exclusive to plants born of gynoecious selections, rather it is simply more readily apparent there than with male/female selections where it is masked by the expectation of seeing males in the population. ...

...It would be wonderfully amusing to me if it turns out that as we do learn more, that some breeders choosing to poddy-mouth female lines were actually using them unbeknownst to them, utilizing highly staminate intersex females as pollen donors. It is possible imo, and I would lmao. -T

Very astute point. I believe this may be the case. I have known a number of people that had favorite "males" that they insisted produced a very high frequency of female offspring. I have also read many reports here on ICMag and other forums where people found some lots of commercial seeds consistently produced more than 50% females.

Make a test cross. If you see 1:1 male:female ratios, you are likely looking at a true male (XY) plant. If not, Tom's theory likely holds some merit. Who knew there was more to him than big plants and a pretty face?

Respectfully,
-Chimera

This is obviously a good idea, and would really shine some light on the subject.

 

[Galactic]

Charlie repeated says the Peyote is S1.

Males were found for early beginnings of line yes, but seed offering is multiple feminzed females for best results. You assuming available using male and female achieving 95plus percent females would be ridiculous. Its an S1 line.

Stop going through the motions. This is what you've been searching endlessly for. You've waited for this chance to log it and flreceive confirmation of your intent. Just do what you were already going to do.

Not foolin me.