Timing is huge! When to use all this organic stuff.

[VerdantGreen]

i feel a bit responsible for the argument about senescence.

in the thread linked by Mm i think Mr Fista sums it up in a sentence.

.....

The plant yellowing happened with plenty of N left in the soil. Senescence is not a symptom of lack of N when in flower, though a shortfall will provide conditions for more severe senescence.

some people may like a more extreme senescense than others?

that and the fact that some of us grow in small pots whilst others grow in huge pots or beds explains the difference of opinion imo.

VG

 

[Canniwhatsis]

Tagged

 

[Microbeman]

Microbeman is a bawse!!! His insight into growing plants through good soil has helped all of us, if you vapor want to be taken seriously you should change your tone and try to write more coherently

Most of all keep it civil dude!!!

Edit: Mr.S was here changing incite to insight :3. Much love baja.

Baja; I appreciate the sentiment but I did bring it upon myself.

I do not recall saying leave me alone Vapor. I said I would leave you alone and that is the reference to sorry folks I could not keep my devil possessed hand from hitting the keyboard not some halucinated "are you making fun of my spelling{fat fingers}." if that is indeed what you meant.

It was 6-1/2 years ago. Kind of cool when I think about that I was using what is considered advanced methods for 5 to 7 years prior to even that. It was not me at all that was the judge of the quality and I did not call it the best - lololduh. I served a group of around 2000+ people to the best of my ability and it was them who 'deemed' ours the best for 7 seven years running.

Of course I do not grow cannabis anymore. I was told not to.

You did not answer my questions.


VG: You did notice the #5s right?

 

[xmobotx]

epic derailment! of course; the timing issue will draw out the timing fans

let me just say that is all crap anyway the plants like the same nut curves during flower as during veg/just more of it

& of course the plant will go to its natural life cycle and senesce @ the end of flower just as long as there isnt extra levels of N going on like if you did a alfalfa drench

it takes extremes to make extreme things happen

and one exception to what i said is the exception VG pointed out where; in small containers; you are feeding more like a nut program and the cycles are basically shorter

 

[VerdantGreen]

,,,,,


VG: You did notice the #5s right?

is that a pot size Mm? you'll have to give me a volume if it's to mean anything to me, i live on a different continent to you.

VG

 

[ClackamasCootz]

VG

About 18 liters - there are some variables in specific volume displacement between container manufacturers. The SmartPots product is fairly accurate, i.e. a #5 is 5 gallons which isn't the case with nursery containers from Pyramid Plastics for example.

Long stupid story on why that is......

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks coot. well i think we may as well have this out now, as the thread is so 'epically derailed' already.

So you guys are telling me that the nitrogen levels are constant in your pots/planters and that the senescence your plants experience is purely by other genetic triggers?

i can accept that.

but, just so i am straight on this, you guys are also telling me that MY soil in MY pots does not become depleted in Nitrogen during the course of my flowering cycle?

please note i say depleted not devoid. i use slow release Nitrogen amendments which will give a constant background level cycle to cycle, but i also use fast release nitrogen ferts in the form of powdered guano.
i see vapor, who incidentally i think some of you were a bit rude to, uses blood meal in his mix and he also thinks that his soil becomes depleted in Nitrogen. I have to say his opinions are pretty close to mine.

VG

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Where does the green come from in a plant?

 

[VerdantGreen]

Chlorophyll, chemical formula C55H72MgN4O5

in the case of cannabis the N element comes from the soil.

 

[VerdantGreen]

right, im off to work now.

hopefully someone will have answered my question in post 127 by the time i get back

VG

 

[ClackamasCootz]

I reject the basic premise that one can remove or restrict Nitrogen or any other element if for no other reason that the grow store approach which selects each and every element via a specific amendment.

IOW, Alfalfa is for Nitrogen, Kelp is for Potassium, Limestone is for Calcium, Crab meal is for Chitin and the parade goes on. The calculations posted are ludicrous at best.

It shows at the very least a complete and total misunderstanding what a bionutrient accumulator plant actually provides. It's beyond mythical.

Is there anything approaching science available to read other than articles at weed magazines or ill-informed books? Anything approaching a legitimate study?

I remain doubtful as always

CC

 

[bajangreen]

Screw me, i was born rude, you guys know that by now. A question though, anyone of you ever seen a wild marijuana plant senescence? a really wild one. IMO its noting like senescence we are talking about in senci, for one the plants are full of ripening seed, and in the wild the nutrient level throughout the whole life cycle is much lower,(i think this plays an important role in the actual start time of senescence) also the yellowing phase only last for a week the most the plant goes from green to dead, brittle dry in days.

What we are talking about i don't think is natural senescence but a grower induced nutrient deficiency that happens just before natural senescence would occur.

 

[supermanlives]

my sour b in the shopping cart with plenty of n didn't yellow at fuckin all. in nature there aint much n at the seasons end . great reading and input guys

 

[MileHighGuy]

VG -

I suspected a misunderstanding from square one.

That is why I asked for his recipe.

It got a little weird when it showed up in the Form of Liquid measurements for dry ingredients and had some of the ingredients measured out to 0ml

Why even include that on the list then?

I'm reaching here, but the book he says this recipe is from is probably full of other recipes with these same ingredients at different levels.... hence leaving a few of them in there at a 0 level. But I'm just guessing.

Before Vapor posted his recipe I was assuming a few things.

1. He was using Blood Meal or other Fast release nutrients that would undoubtedly cause issues with flowering and taste of final product if overused..... That would explain his dialing in of the right amount of nutrients and feeling like he was using too much in the past.

2. I also was assuming that these trace amounts of nutrients in his mind, were more than likely going to show up as normal amounts of nutrients and not anything special. The way it was described I was imagining a practically soilless mix being used for flower with a magical math calculation that reserved only the right amount of food for a calculated amount of weeks based on plant type.... What I saw instead was one recipe that was not different than most recipes I see out there.

3. My main contention is that there would still be PLENTY of available nutrients left in his soil.... maybe not for a complete run, but certainly there are still nutrients.

After seeing what may or may not be his mix... we will know when he gets home from work and double checks it all.

Anyways, it sounds to me like Vapor is just doing what we all do and taking credit for what the plant is doing for him.....

When he spoke up I really felt that what he was saying would be better received with a super soil crowd. People already using an abundance of Hot nutrients that have to include a certain amount of super soil per plant based on what they think the nutrient needs to be.

Personally I feel like just EWC made the right way will have more nutrients than any of our plants could use up in 1 cycle.

Another thing = Look at Cootz Recipe:

1/2 cup per Cubic Foot of:
Neem Cake
Crab Meal
Kelp Meal

4 Cups Per of Rock Dust mix

Now THAT is a minimal soil mix and it performs very very well.

As an experiment I recently did a 100 gallon batch of Cootz mix but added 1/2 cup alfalfa to the mix and doubled the kelp and crab meal. Then when mixed up I took some plants and put them directly into the fresh mix... Not one issue, plants are super healthy. (I don't think the extra nutrients are doing anything special either, just cost more money so in the future I'll just keep Cootz Ratio's.) So that really tells me that "dialing" a soil in is mostly dealing with proper amounts of the fast release nutrients while dealing with smaller containers.... otherwise the measurements aren't imperative for senescence at all.

VG - You're earlier Photos and posts about senescence have bolstered my confidence and shown me that I'm not an inferior grower because yellowing occurs, rather that it is completely natural. I was aware of this phenomenon but didn't really understood how that fit into my garden as there was such a difference between strains. A while ago I found that senescence thread and really enjoyed it.... then to be reminded here with the photos you posted on week 3 week 6 and week 10.... that was awesome.

One of the challenges of the internet is that much is lost in translation..... For a derail this one wasn't that bad, there may have been some rudeness but no names were being called for the most part and I don't think anyone is going to have to clean this up.

My next post will hopefully get us all back on track a little bit.

 

[MileHighGuy]

So about the timing with all this organic stuff.

Coots posted a link to a website by Gil with all sorts of amazing organic extra's and I know that many of you are using them.

The website is here: Gil Carandang

Things I'm interested in doing some side by side experiments with:

1. CalPhos Spray at flower transition
2. Grow Fert
3. Bloom Fert
4. Home Made Fish Fert

FPE's have been on my to do list but I haven't had a reason to.... mainly because I wanted to get used to my new soil mixes and figure out how everything was working before I added more stuff besides the aloe, humic, silica etc.

Please, anyone with experience with these ingredients please tell me how they might be valuable to growers like us and how best to experiment with them.

For instance, should I even bother with the Grow or Bloom Fert?

I know I want the Fish Fert for my Compost tea.... I was thinking about trying these mixes on my vegetable plants too.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

MHG

Are you running a worm bin?

CC

 

[MileHighGuy]

Yes I am!

100 gallon smart pot full of compost, sphagnum, amendments like Neem, Kelp and gypsum along with food scraps and old dead cannabis leaves.

It's only been up and running for about 2 months so I have more waiting to do.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

When you get some serious worm colonies, run all of your plant materials through the bins.

In the produce industry it is called 'value added commodities' like bagged chopped salad or cut fruit trays all properly treated of course with this or that to enhance the presentation.

"But it smells like chlorine"

"Shut up ya little asshole! Eat your greens!"

The advantage to running it through your worm bin is that more of the plant's compounds will remain intact and will be available. That's why I add kelp & neem meal to the worm food stock.

CC

 

[VerdantGreen]

.....

I can grow a healthy indica to fruition in a #5 planters pot, using ACT through to the end, having it reach proper senescence with yellowing leaves, produce a good yield of a renowned and still talked about quality product (in your region), yet be able to grow a green healthy rooted youngster in the same soil for a good 2 weeks or longer before requiring what you guys call ferts. Here I thought I would have used up all of the nutrients, the plant cannabilizing blah blah blah.

Mm, apologies in advance that you will find this tiresome, but what you describe doesnt really prove that nutrients aren't depleted... indeed it seems to confirm that they are.
the nutrients required by a small plant in vegetative growth are going to be way less than a flowering plant whose roots have grown to fill the pot.
so if a small plant can only get along in your soil for a couple of weeks in a 5 gallon pot before requiring extra nutrients then how is that proving that the nutrients aren't depleted in the soil?

for comparison i put my rooted clones into an unferted soil mix that contains 20% compost but no other nutrition amendments. They grow quite happily in this for a couple of weeks before i pot them up into my fully amended soil.

VG

 

[xmobotx]

VG; i have done it w/o top-dressing @ all in the second cycle {in 3 gal pots} and w/ a top-dress @ the flip {you know me/always experimenting} i think its a good idea to replenish before flower but thats about it ~trying just kelp meal this go-around on 1

MHG/re; clack ~the other thing there is the worm bin is an awesome humus resource

again; w/ living soil the key factor is quality humus

essentially; nutrient cycling your amendments through the compost and/or worms coulped w/ having a good CEC in your soil chemistry eliminates the timing aspect and shifts the paradigm from feeding the plant to feeding the soil

nute balancing. pH. or other meters are clinging to techs associated w/ the 'feed the plant' paradigm

you want no MAJOR imbalances or excesses but; it doesnt have to be perfect balance or perfect timing @ all