Timing is huge! When to use all this organic stuff.

[VerdantGreen]

I personally have found it can rob nutrients.

http://www.gardening.cornell.edu/factsheets/orgmatter/

thanks for the link Mm.

guano i think is a fairly special 'group' of ferts. because in some ways they are manure, but the bat droppings also get processed by various beatles and insects on the cave floor - so in other ways they could also be compared to worm castings or similar.
I'm kind of an oldschool organic gardener and although compost is king, i feel manures in general bring a lot of growing power to the plants when used. I use a fair bit of stable manure in my veg garden as well as compost and i swear by it - but it's richness means it needs to be used in a careful and measured way in canna growing.

i think most of the disagreements here are arising from different grow styles/intensiveness/pot size. some generalizations will work across the board, others wont.
Root/soil volume as a ratio to yield will imo dictate if you can get way with just mild nutrition/ferts like compost and rockdusts, or if you need to move into stronger amendments like guanos/manures... and those things need to be used sparingly and with caution.

VG

 

[MileHighGuy]

The goal. to have the little leaves on the inside of the buds to yellow as well as the big leaves.
This can be done, you need to run the plant a few times, and or have some experiences. For me i have grown said plants for years, many different ways many different ratios. You can look to the ideal soil book for a place to start in terms of how to balance nutrients.
So all you are doing is trying to get the right amount of nutrients in the medium for the plants life cycle, no more. For me i want to see fading on a longer sativa type around 40-50 daze flower. shorter flowering plant week mid to end week 4 flower. If your plants are healthy till those points they should have enough storage in there leaves to finish there life cycle. So we veg plants as big as we would like then i add my nutrients to soil/medium to cook for a month, then at the start of flower i up pot to the size the plant will need{this is where experience comes in dialing in} So i start with a certain amount of nutrients in balance that cannabis likes{cal/mag ratios can make a plant turn out completely different}. I grow out said plant and bioassy. If it need less or more it may be a matter of reducing the flowering pot size or increasing it. I use two mixes. One for heavy feeders, and one for kush types and 8-10 weekers. It comes down to personal taste. And having the plants yellow and drop all there leaves in a balanced fade, while maintaining bud growth you can still get a good yield and have nice clean buds. It is a learning curve thats all. And i wish more folks would take the time to do it and learn it, cause it makes a huge difference in the end product. As you learn to do this it becomes easier. I do organic amendments and vortex teas and compost etc but i know Salt feeders do this too just cut your feeding at week 5-6 for a 12 week flower and or week mid 4 for a 8-10 weeker Weed can be grown with salts or organics and be clean and great, but it is a matter of thinking on the plants level not our preference. most see yields as the marker but this is about quality. This usually means less yields{depends on growers skill level this changes} but better quality/ meds.
try it you might like it. that is a bit of my process
If you want a actual soil mix that i use i will post if you ask,,./

I respectfully disagree with everything you just said.

Thank you for spelling it out though, it more clearly helps me understand how certain growers are thinking.

Let me share a few thoughts from my viewpoint.... I know everyone has their own opinion here, but I believe that working with nature is much better than attempting to understand nature completely.

Yes, starving a plant of nutrients is one way to induce senescence. Also if you want to hone your fading skills you can try temperature extremes, wounding, infecting your plant etc.

The plant hormones will control senescence and this plant is awesome.... senescence will allow a plant to finish even under stressful conditions.

Or, if you want to induce senescence naturally you'll be looking to wait for age, reproductive development, and phytohormone levels.

A quote taken from, "Making Sense of Senescence'"
Molecular Genetic Regulation and Manipulation of Leaf Senescence

Like many other genetically programmed developmental
processes, leaf senescence, particularly its initiation, is subject to regulation by many environmental and autonomous
(internal) factors. The environmental cues include stresses
such as extremes of temperature, drought, ozone, nutrient
deficiency, pathogen infection, wounding, and shading,
whereas the autonomous factors include age, reproductive
development, and phytohormone levels.
Among the environmental cues, limited water and nutrient availability (especially nitrogen) are major factors
that adversely affect plant life in many ecosystems. Plants
have evolved mechanisms by which leaf senescence can be
induced by these stresses to reallocate nutrients to reproductive organs and to eliminate water consumption by
older, less productive leaves. This regulation of leaf senescence has an obvious adaptive value, allowing the plant to
complete its life cycle even under stressful conditions.

All these trees around here turning colors in autumn you'd have thought that some professional fader was running aroung mixing up up-potted nutrient mixes to let these trees fade right before winter.

Starvation Method = Grower is a Pro

Senescence Method = The Plant is a pro.


Edit: I don't want it to sound like I believe that a really rich soil with raw Organic matter is best.... Rather that balance is very important and it seems that balance is more inline with nature than attempting to starve a plant at a given time. Observations from my tent lead me to believe that a recycled soil gives the plant more control of it's own nature. Also, that given the fact you are building a soil that is purely for flowering.... the running out of nutrient idea doesn't sit in my head very well....

Maybe you should breakdown your flower mix for us on a normal 8-10 week run of the mill hybrid. I'm thinking I will see more nutrients added than I was envisioning in my head when you said you let the soil run out. Maybe we are just having a mix-up of terminology.... there is a chance.

 

[vapor]

Well i can respect your point of view. What i said was years of experience and experimenting so thats fine if you disagree but i am not going back lol. Senescence and starvation are really the same thing,the way i am speaking of it, we are just taking it to the extreme. What you are saying about trees and nature i agree.
I did not want to say that cause i don not have any "proof" so to speak but my own observations. What i think is senescence is a natural plant move regardless.But i think that it can be amplified so to speak. It is wanting to do it right? trees do it right? Not all soil is the same through nature. So i think of what we are doing is more of amplifying the effect. I dont stand here saying i know the answer all i know is 17 years of growing experience and i know how i like my herb to smoke and i know what it takes to get it to that point after years of experimenting. wounding the plant i have tryed and temp swing have tyed it makes them fade, but not the same when i get the nutrients in line to where the buds form like they should and there is no more left for them. If i was growing veggies and wanting the minerals in the plants for nutrition etc i would agree with you. but i find cannabis when smoking it in the end product to be different then growing a veggy. try it you might like it. If you are ever in vancouver buds on the table and you can smoke what i am thinking. and you bring your buds and we will see whats going on. I have grown many many plants, in many many mixes and if i over do it with the ferts organic or chemy it dont matter, the ash is black and harsh. If i temper the nutrients so the plant uses most of what in the medium i like the results much more. Truth is we are still in the baby steps of learning about cannabis and cannabis growing/understanding. Will post a mix in abit have to dig it up....

 

[canna woop!]

Insofar as the plants adapt to the environment, perhaps the growers subconscious expectations also lead the plant to runout sooner. I mean I don't really calculate exactly whatiwant out oftheplantwhen I mix soils, so whati am seeing with them can only mean whatever random idea I Hardin the back of my mind while I was soil mixing is currently manifesting, and the seemingly premature yellowingoflower fan leaves is actual ly premeditated... So what's reallyexactly in the soil that runs out? I can accept senescence, but idontthinki can accept allowing the soil to go barren whiletheplants are stillgrowingthere

Apologize for the lack o f space s

In any case there is more to this than we are talking about. Toward the end of the cycle the pl ants are visibly senescing, which is a cue that things are changing below the soil line as well. Howdo you know that the microbial fertility incorrect, that the root die off is corresponding evenly to foliage? That the dead roots are being consumed fully? Cutting off npk won't ensure that if it is a goal.... What about moisture levels? If you let things dry out, die off, howdo the microbes get enough energy to fully process the decaying material before you harvest?

Then your plants have not ful ly self cannibalized likeyouintended, because the fertility wasn't high enough to allowthistohappend... Self fulfilling prophecy of cutting things from happening off no?

 

[MileHighGuy]

Have to dig up a mix that you regularly prepare for all of your flowering plants?

Can't wait to see this.

Canna, that was pretty tough to read man. I think you're trying to say that vapor still has nutrients in his soil whether he thinks so or not.... right?

 

[canna woop!]

Have to dig up a mix that you regularly prepare for all of your flowering plants?

Can't wait to see this.

Canna, that was pretty tough to read man. I think you're trying to say that vapor still has nutrients in his soil whether he thinks so or not.... right?

Mmmmyyyupppp

Also, what things do you consider npk? Is that npk all were talking about depleting? If so than spitting in the water instead of flushing Not per se may be acceptable since spit has little npk

 

[canna woop!]

BJW

BioAg's TM-7 contains the correct level of Molybdenum (Mo) - chelated even plus the other 6 micronutrients in their Humic acid base. You know how well this product is priced.

RE: Comfrey

The best investment I have ever made was buying 4 root pieces a couple of years back. I've already harvested two plants this year - that's how fast Comfrey grows once its established.

The typical way we use it is to lay the leaves on top of the raised beds and water it. Let that sit for 3 or 4 days until it has broken down. Toss some kelp, neem & crab meal and we covered that with 6" of organic thermal compost. Ready to go in less than a week.

I'll try and find the Carbon:Nitrogen ratio numbers but it's insanely low which is why it breaks down as quickly as it does. Comfrey contains over 400 compounds (Secondary Metabolites) and an important one is Mucilage @ 290,000 ppm.

Here's some of the elements in your Comfrey:

Calcium - 18,000 ppm
Magnesium - 700 ppm
Phosphorus - 2,200 ppm
Potassium - 17,000 ppm

Not too shabby for a weed......

CC

Comfrey >> Silicic acid >> 40,000 ppm

Borage is about 1/2 that @ 22,000 ppm

HTH

CC

So I a wondering about this, any one know would the flowers have the same nutritional profile or less? With the silica? I am not even sure if its worth making tea, ESP. With the possibility of bringing leaf spot into the garden

 

[Corpsey]

can someone explain their process of making a sprout tea?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

can someone explain their process of making a sprout tea?

Post #907 & #908

 

[ClackamasCootz]

So I a wondering about this, any one know would the flowers have the same nutritional profile or less?

Far, far less - two completely different functions by the plant. Leaves accumulate nutrients (NPK) - flowers do not. However they do create insect repellents, create fungicide compounds, etc.

Worth using but for different reasons. Think about the cannabis plant - leaves are far different from the flowers in almost every way.

CC

 

[Microbeman]

Vapor, in your vast wisdom and experience please explain how;

I can grow a healthy indica to fruition in a #5 planters pot, using ACT through to the end, having it reach proper senescence with yellowing leaves, produce a good yield of a renowned and still talked about quality product (in your region), yet be able to grow a green healthy rooted youngster in the same soil for a good 2 weeks or longer before requiring what you guys call ferts. Here I thought I would have used up all of the nutrients, the plant cannabilizing blah blah blah.

Could you also please describe the bioassay you keep name dropping.

If I had believed all the dogshit written in the cannabis books, I would still be convinced that the big withdrawal of N and boost of P is the primary cause of yellowing etc. It is mind boggling how many experts I've met who have prattled on about this.

I'd also be really interested to hear how growing cannabis differs so drastically from many other plants like say.....vegetables, corn, hops, mullien, hay, hemp....

[sorry folks I could not keep my devil possessed hand from hitting the keyboard]

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

So i was reading the other day that nothing accumulates silica like grass. So i was thinking:

A: Is this true?
B: If so would a good, hot, weed killing compost of my rampant couch grass = a silica rich (and bio available) compost?

The root nodules of the couch grass certainly look and feel like a really hard plastic which im guessing is almost pure silica...

EDIT: Just checked Dr Dukes database and he has silicon at only 253ppm.... but good amounts of mucilage @110,000 ppm and a decent amount of potassium, phosphorous and calcium among a few others.



ps. I would like to (just for fun) try popping some seeds in the same pot as a flowering plant @ say week 6 and see if they grow well...

 

[vapor]

Have to dig up a mix that you regularly prepare for all of your flowering plants?

Can't wait to see this.

Canna, that was pretty tough to read man. I think you're trying to say that vapor still has nutrients in his soil whether he thinks so or not.... right?

yea it is a book at home and i am not at home atm i am at worky{phoned home}... lol
Vapor's mix Ratios
alfalfa 100 ml
blood meal 15 ml
kelp 10 ml
cal carb lime 45 ml
bat guano 10 ml
rock phosphorus 10 ml
glacial rock dust 15 ml
leonardite 2.5 ml
borate 40 0.0425 ml
soybean meal 60 ml
neem seed cake 15 ml
pyro clay 5 ml
copper sulfate 0.1 ml
zinc sulfate 0.15 ml
manganese sulfate 0.175 ml

Multiplication Factor 5 gallons

total volume 287.7925 ml

 

[MileHighGuy]

This is getting wierd

 

[vapor]

Vapor, in your vast wisdom and experience please explain how;

I can grow a healthy indica to fruition in a #5 planters pot, using ACT through to the end, having it reach proper senescence with yellowing leaves, produce a good yield of a renowned and still talked about quality product (in your region), yet be able to grow a green healthy rooted youngster in the same soil for a good 2 weeks or longer before requiring what you guys call ferts. Here I thought I would have used up all of the nutrients, the plant cannabilizing blah blah blah.

Could you also please describe the bioassay you keep name dropping.

If I had believed all the dogshit written in the cannabis books, I would still be convinced that the big withdrawal of N and boost of P is the primary cause of yellowing etc. It is mind boggling how many experts I've met who have prattled on about this.

I'd also be really interested to hear how growing cannabis differs so drastically from many other plants like say.....vegetables, corn, hops, mullien, hay, hemp....

[sorry folks I could not keep my devil possessed hand from hitting the keyboard]

your so funny first you say leave me alone and then you talk down to me about sharing MY experiences. lol find some humility
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioassay
it is called sitting down with folks and smoking your weed lol, are you making fun of my spelling{fat fingers}.
As far as your weed how many years was that ago? lol everyone has the best right? and how do i know what the fuck you put in your soil?
I dont think a big boost of p and lack of N in flower is the answer to growing cannabis. I time my food to start running out a certain point during flower, i am just sharing what i have seen over years of growing, and if you can show me a better way and abetter product i will surely listen{buds on the table time}. Fading or yellowing senescence is natural eh. it happens even with lots of nutrients in the soil. But it does it to extreme when you have the right amount as per the plant. Listen i am not going to sit here and argue with you about who is right or wrong. I know what works in my garden and i have seen it in other who grow this way as well. Just bring your buds to the table and we will give it the real test. Thats the one where people go wow holy shit what is this......
I would love to meet you again and smoke some buds of this historic buds, i have some of mine. place? time? the proof is in the pudding and i am willing to put more then words and experiences on the table, Bring your buds and show me the light,or do you even grow cannabis?

 

[bajangreen]

Microbeman is a bawse!!! His insight into growing plants through good soil has helped all of us, if you vapor want to be taken seriously you should change your tone and try to write more coherently

Most of all keep it civil dude!!!

Edit: Mr.S was here changing incite to insight :3. Much love baja.

 

[RanchoDeluxe]

This is getting wierd

I think you mean..."This weird getting is"

 

[mapinguari]

Old news, as I'm sure you know.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=190022&highlight=yellowing

MM, thanks a bunch for that. I hadn't seen that thread, and it does a lot of what I was asking for (science references, detailed descriptions of experiences)--even if it doesn't resolve the issue of flushing, organics, and senescence.

Great read!

 

[BlueJayWay]

MM, thanks a bunch for that. I hadn't seen that thread, and it does a lot of what I was asking for (science references, detailed descriptions of experiences)--even if it doesn't resolve the issue of flushing, organics, and senescence.

Great read!

I'm still waiting for the issue of Acres that addresses this as well.

The only flushing issue you should ever have can be easily handled by a plumber.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

The only flushing issue you should ever have can be easily handled by a plumber

You're assuming that everyone involved in this discussion enjoys the luxury of indoor plumbing allowing for flushing toilets.

Heck even 'mobile homes' have this feature...makes ya wonder doesn't it?