The Truth on Flouro vs HID

[Thundurkel]

That's cool I'm going to go CFL/LED when I have some extra cash I want to use the LED Drop Light's I think that will give the yield of HID quantity with CFL quality which IMO and many other's is better medicinally due to the range of cannabinoids and terpines being produced under the better spectrum...

But I'm not totally against HIDs I just feel they are on their way out in the near future but I have been thinking of making a 300w CMH cab with 2 150s and then use Sunblaze Strips on the sides and I'd get the 2ft ones cuz they only cost $20 - $25 each and I'd grow out bushes topped in 6" square pots

 

[kno3brock]

right on Thundurkel- Im currently running a CFL/T5 cab with 5 x 42 warm cfl's and 2 x 23 watt t'5s and 2 x 13 watt strip t5's iin 3 square feet. The t5's are mounted vertically. I like the mix method of lighting and have seen a boost in my yield since I started running the t5's.

keep on pushing the growing evelope.

 

[Anti]

[nuts]
Thundurkel - I was leaning back and forth on the CFL vs HID fence until I came across Dr. Bud. Then I started getting impressed with the CFL concept. Then while reading through his stuff, I came across YOUR stuff... which is what REALLY gave me confidence in the idea of CFL. (Because he seems to be a degreed botanist, so it could be a fluke. But then you duplicated it.)
[/nuts]


I've just completed a box design (not yet built) that I'd really like to get your input on.
Basic idea is that it's a self-contained unit for Dr. Bud style perpSOG. It also integrates a drying cab with ventilation through whole setup. I built a 3D mockup of it and I made some pics to illustrate what I mean:





Don't wanna hijack this thread, so feel free to take it to mine if you choose to respond. (Or keep it here. it is CFL related.) The link to my thread is in my sig. I'd send it private, but too much of a newb to qualify for such lofty honors. Appreciate any thoughts you might have.

 

[Thundurkel]

That's a cool design I would make the flower chamber taller though, my cab is 28" tall but my light's are mounted at 24" cuz I noticed that's where DrBud had his at cuz when you hit the sweet spot you plants should finish at 17"-22"

 

[Anti]

That's a cool design I would make the flower chamber taller though, my cab is 28" tall but my light's are mounted at 24" cuz I noticed that's where DrBud had his at cuz when you hit the sweet spot you plants should finish at 17"-22"

My lights are mounted at 24" above the base of the chamber. For the same reason you mentioned. The containers I'm going to be using will be cut somewhere between 6" and 8" tall. So that'll leave 17"-19" between the base of soil and the lights.

You think it should be a few inches taller? Go for 28"? I want to keep the "top" of the chamber within 1/2 inch of the top of the bulbs so that it can reflect the light back down more efficiently.

 

[Thundurkel]

no you should be fine just like that, can I ask what program you made the design in??

 

[Anti]

Awesome free 3D design/CAD program: Google Sketchup 7

Awesome free 3D design/CAD program: Google Sketchup 7

no you should be fine just like that, can I ask what program you made the design in??

I used Google SketchUp 7. You can go to google and type "sketchup" and be done downloading it in a few minutes.

I've used other programs like lightwave and truespace in the past. Those are pretty intimidating if you don't have a background in 3d animation.

With Sketchup.. it gives you a help screen that activates whenever you click on a tool to show a little window with a little tutorial of what that tool does. So you can be up and running with something in a matter of minutes.

I downloaded it after hearing someone on some thread make the suggestion. This allowed me to build the box to it's actual dimensions so that I could see how it would all fit together and what the space would be like. I'm really happy I did, because now I can just measure my virtual parts and go to home lowe's and have them cut them all out for me.

http://sketchup.google.com/

 

[Gr8fulDen]

Just downloaded the free Google SketchUp 7 program. Looks amazing! I learn more in this forum than I learned in college! Thanks!

 

[Thundurkel]

yea buddy that program is SICK!!! Also when you click the Get Models button to the far right up top you get to see stuff other people designed and can download them and open it in you SketchUp. So I searched Growroom, Grow Box, Marijuana Growing and they all came up with some cool shit that people made there's a cab by this dude Zombie when you search growroom that its pretty sick I think all Micro Growers should be using this program and improving the designs they make.

 

[Anti]

Ain't That a Bitch?

Ain't That a Bitch?

yea buddy that program is SICK!!! Also when you click the Get Models button to the far right up top you get to see stuff other people designed and can download them and open it in you SketchUp. So I searched Growroom, Grow Box, Marijuana Growing and they all came up with some cool shit that people made there's a cab by this dude Zombie when you search growroom that its pretty sick I think all Micro Growers should be using this program and improving the designs they make.

Hmm. ::Slaps forehead:: It did not even occur to me to look for a cannabinet in their models section. (cannabis+cabinet=cannabinet?) I did consider looking at the models to see if anyone had designed some kitchen cabs... but then I was like "nah, I'll learn more by starting at 0." I learned a LOT. I highly recommend just starting from scratch.

Click the box tool. Drag a rectangle. Doesn't matter what size. Once you've made it, let go of the mouse... DON'T DO ANYTHING ELSE. Now... there's a lil box at the bottom right of the screen. It's telling you the size of that box you just made. Just start typing:

4',2'

or 48",24"

Hit return.

Bam. You've got a flat rectangle that's 2'x4'. Hit the stretch tool. Center the mouse over the face of your rectangle until you see it selected. Click the mouse and pull and release. No matter what size the object is, just type: .5" Now you've got yourself a piece of plywood that's 2'x4'x0.5" .. just like the real one will be. You can make 2x4s, 2x2s, anything you might actually purchase at the hardware store.

Bulbs and ballasts generally have their dimensions in the specs. You can put them in the box and make sure everything fits before you buy the first piece of wood. SOOOO worth it.



This:

^^...was done last night, completely from scratch, in about 2 hours. I didn't modify my last design. I started over. The first time took a lot longer, but now I know the tricks of the trade. (Or at least a few.) The measuring tape tool is your friend. You can mark points in space and then "drag" pieces to intersect perfectly with that mark. (that's what those little black x's are you can see in some of my images... markers I didn't erase.)

The major changes to my last design?
#1) I switched to pulling instead of pushing with my carbon to make it a little easier on my fan.

#2) Re-routed the cab exhaust vents and added a pane of glass so that I can separately exhaust the lights. Now it'll run three micro (PC) fans instead of one large inline. I also doubled the size of the light-proofing air ducts between cabs with the hopes of lessening pressure on the fan

#3) Raised mother and flower chamber a few inches. Chamber is still 23.5" but now the lights are in the glass partition ABOVE that 23.5" effectively raising plant ceiling 3".

#4) Shrank drying chamber and added a carbon filter chamber. (Necessary so that I could route the plant room exhaust and the light room exhaust seperately.

#5) Shrank overall cab height by 3", which adds to the asthetic appeal of the CD cabinet face, hopefully helping to keep people from spending too much time looking at it.





If anyone has any suggestions, please hurry. I'm gonna start construction within the next two weeks, at latest.

 

[I_Lurk_Good]

Thund, I was wondering if you had anything to say on the difference in light dispersion for a tube vs. point light source.

The OP does a great job of showing how a point light source dissipates in intensity via the inverse square law, but a flouro tube is a long string of overlapping point light sources dissipating at 1/r (r being distance from the source).

My roommate argues that the tube is more energy efficient overall because creating an array of tubes side by side in a small space (we are trying to follow in Dr.Bud's and yours footsteps in the MicroSog area) approximates outdoor light much better and that allowing for many side by side tubes at 1/r means that light intensity shouldn't drop off nearly as much as a single point light source like a CFL or HID, if at all.

I'm by no means a super science/math nerd and don't know how to verify this or anything. Do you have a take? Certainly a strip light source does not abide by the inverse square law for light, at least, right?

Oh, one other questions on heat and CFL's. I've come to believe that there is an efficiency curve for CFL's regarding power consumed and output of light/heat. Looking at the packages between the 23W CFL's and the 42W's and above also provides some interesting information. The latter CFL uses about 86% more energy while producing about 60% more lumen output. My only conclusion is that remaining 26% is going into heat creation and not light and that there is a non-linnear correlation between energy consumed and light produced. You seem to be a serious CFL guru and was wondering if you have any information on this or observed similar.

*crossing fingers and hoping I don't make the "stupid questions" thread*

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Thund, I was wondering if you had anything to say on the difference in light dispersion for a tube vs. point light source.

The OP does a great job of showing how a point light source dissipates in intensity via the inverse square law, but a flouro tube is a long string of overlapping point light sources dissipating at 1/r (r being distance from the source).

My roommate argues that the tube is more energy efficient overall because creating an array of tubes side by side in a small space (we are trying to follow in Dr.Bud's and yours footsteps in the MicroSog area) approximates outdoor light much better and that allowing for many side by side tubes at 1/r means that light intensity shouldn't drop off nearly as much as a single point light source like a CFL or HID, if at all.

I'm by no means a super science/math nerd and don't know how to verify this or anything. Do you have a take? Certainly a strip light source does not abide by the inverse square law for light, at least, right?

I'll take a crack at part of that, if Thund' doesn't mind.

The inverse square law does indeed apply and, because it does, they offer the maximum benefit for systems that continually keep the light source right on the plants.

The reason the multi-point light source is so effective is because the plant doesn't have much shadow on the lower leaves. Normally the light comes from a single source and any spot of the plant that gets the light first, throws a shadow on the rest of the plant past/below it.

With the PL-L lamps (and Fluoro tubes in general) you don't have any shadows in the first layer of canopy. The top of the plant is getting hit by light in all directions without shadows. Hence the reason the top several inches of the canopy layer will produce highly dense buds, when grown correctly.

Because you can also keep these lamps right down on your plants, you're looking at minimal loss through the inverse square. HID, on the other hand, can't get that close without glass and extra cooling. Much more expensive for a medical op for one person.

 

[I_Lurk_Good]

thanks for verifying our basic math notions Hydro

I edited my post to also ask if there's a linear or non-linear relation between power consumed and light output for CFL's. It seemed to me that the 42W CFL's produced far more heat in relation/proportion to the light output than their 23W counterparts, suggesting a curve. But I have not been able to find any relevant information on this and don't know how it could be tested or verified.

Follow up question, if there is a curve, would be "where along the curve do CFL's start becoming less efficient?"

 

[Thundurkel]

Alright Anti thanks for the half assed tutorial I didn't know I could type my dimensions that way so I tried it out and got myself a piece of plywood lol but how do I go about piecing them together haha ???

 

[Anti]

Half-assed tutorial 2.0

Half-assed tutorial 2.0

Alright Anti thanks for the half assed tutorial I didn't know I could type my dimensions that way so I tried it out and got myself a piece of plywood lol but how do I go about piecing them together haha ???

Well, what I did was build the bottom one, and then draw the second rectangle on the face of that one and then extrude it (pull/push).

Another way to do it is to click on the movement button. (Looks like a cross with arrow tips) So first you select the object you want to move with the pointer button. Then you use the movement tool and hover it above one of the corners. Now click on it once. Now move your mouse to the corner of the other piece you want to intersect with. Click it again. Should be joined now.

But like I said, make your first piece, and then just make the other pieces right on top of that piece. Much easier.

PS - anyone interested in following the build of my cab design, the wood's been cut and partially painted. April 1st will be the first serious day of construction. I'll do my best to document it for you. Should have new pics up tomorrow in my sig thread. Word up.

 

[Rastatrue]

hey Now, You did a great job spreading real stuff _Thundurkel__Thanks for the effort. Funny how a good thread can last as long as there's good info. Both you & Dr. Bud have changed my whole direction and made me a much more productive, sustainable micro farmer. ____________ Sure I love those photos of massive grows, but for my own interest bigger does'nt have to be better! Thanks again for the good words & research.

 

[Elite]

I love to being a technology whore

Incredible design Anti!! I need a new entertainment center

Great thread Thundurkel as ALWAYS!!

Just wanted to bump this up...Anyone have any updates??

Elite

 

[dontae1000]

cfls lumen listing in all practicality is about half as much

cfls lumen listing in all practicality is about half as much

you have to consider that unless you have them(the cfl's) positioned just right hanging vertically between two plans lets say for actual use of all the lumes that the label says it contains then cfl are not that strong for growing, for the most part when there hung horizontally half the light is just boucning back and forth inside the bulbs center, plus the bottom side thats actaully going toward your plants doesnt even have a reflector so u loose a little there a little also as well. i think cfls are great for space challenges but for flourescents t-8 and t-5 are way better and brighter in real life not packageing, i agree cfl look brighter but thats because they are, there just trapped light, im not knocking the mini or micro grows, im just suprised people dont use more 2ft flours when they easly could and have better cheaper results.

 

[Thundurkel]

you have to consider that unless you have them(the cfl's) positioned just right hanging vertically between two plans lets say for actual use of all the lumes that the label says it contains then cfl are not that strong for growing, for the most part when there hung horizontally half the light is just boucning back and forth inside the bulbs center, plus the bottom side thats actaully going toward your plants doesnt even have a reflector so u loose a little there a little also as well. i think cfls are great for space challenges but for flourescents t-8 and t-5 are way better and brighter in real life not packageing, i agree cfl look brighter but thats because they are, there just trapped light, im not knocking the mini or micro grows, im just suprised people dont use more 2ft flours when they easly could and have better cheaper results.

Ok bro you are SO off I had to build a whole new veg and mom cab cuz the one I put together with a 4ft T5 6500K and 2 2ft T8 7800K do NOT have my plants growing as fast as my 4 26w 6500k CFLs. Now that I went back to vegging with strictly CFLs my clones and moms veg ALOT quicker and you can't fit the same amount of lumens in a 2.5 sq ft cab with 2ft T5s or T8s I could fit a total of 4 T5s in my cab. Thats 8000 lumens in 2.5sq ft when I rock 7 42w CFLs with a total of 18200 lumens at 7280 lumens per sq ft and you wonder why you don't see more peeps micro growing with t5s and t8s

 

[HawaiianPunch]

I thought lumens don't stack? And maybe your T5's are growing the plants faster Thundurkle... just more condensed?