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The Terpenes of Cannabis Their Aromas and Effects
- Thread starter Seaf0ur
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Bubbleblower
Member
Let's get this straight; the substance in the so called RKS (scRKS) pheno was certainly not pyrazine.
Like Daub said you could smell it a quarter mile away (up to a mile downwind) and there are maned wolves in Rotterdam Zoo, which is in the center of Rotterdam. The only pee you can smell there is not from wolves let me tell you.
Whatever was in the scRKS pheno didn't only smell that bad, but also irritated the eyes. It had this effect on every single person who smoked it. It is hard to imagine this was also psychological, especially since the Visine had a visible placebo effect.
Like Daub said you could smell it a quarter mile away (up to a mile downwind) and there are maned wolves in Rotterdam Zoo, which is in the center of Rotterdam. The only pee you can smell there is not from wolves let me tell you.
Whatever was in the scRKS pheno didn't only smell that bad, but also irritated the eyes. It had this effect on every single person who smoked it. It is hard to imagine this was also psychological, especially since the Visine had a visible placebo effect.
At least that would explain why it was only found in area's where skunks live.
(which happens to be the same area where skunk cabbage grows)
Not simple, but yes, we could.
One of the explanations how we got the scRKS pheno is it was attacked by grey mold.
Interestingly there is a substance in there that does quite a bit of engineering; Beta-Glucosidase.
In Kashmir they let hash mold on purpose, which indeed makes a very special hash.
The reason the scRKS pheno has only been found incidently and always in the same areas could be because you might need both skunks and a severe attack of grey mold to find it. The scRKS pheno is not at all interesting by the way, it was never very popular before we got internet.
You have a point, not going to argue about that
.Still, I'd like to add a few things which might be interesting for one or the other concerning pyrazine and the like.
Pyrazine (e.g. isobutylmethoxypyrazine) and pyrroline (e.g. 2-acetyl-1-pyrroline) derivatives are know aromatic compounds with a very low odour detection threshold sometimes well below ng/l liquid (that's less than a ppm of a ppm) or ng/m3 air (actually so few molecules that your nose can literally count the single molecules it smells
) . These compounds are very important in food and contribute for example to the different aromas of wine. One problem with them is that they are so diluted that it's very difficult to analyse them and determine their structure.Sure enough, these seldom let your eyes water (unless it's tears of joy or you just spent a couple hundred dollars for a rare bottle of wine only to find out it has a cork taint). The RKS smell might well be a mix of different constituents of which some might actually have been pyrazine derivatives.
I like your idea with the microbes as responsible factor. Like in the case of wine, the special notes are partially due microbial fermentation. I don't think it's grey mould because that one exists nearly everywhere and does not cause your buds to smell that weird (just rotten). Why you need a skunk nearby too seems more like happenstance to me. I'd rather guess it had to do with a more unique microbe variety combined with local climate and growing style.
Besides, Visine has no placebo effect, it's a (visible) pharmacological effect. It contains a vasoconstrictor making the dilated and hence red shining blood vessels thin and thereby your eyes white again.
Sourdough comes to mind, not that it has anything due to weed. Just that the wild varieties seem to be specific to certain geographic areas.
There probably are specific terpene synthase pathways that are responsible for what’s found in MJ, just not enough research has been able to be done to identify them. Here’s a link to some research on terpene synthase in bacteria.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/12/141223114024.htm
My hypothesis is that RKS was selected by humans - before the internet became popular - because it sold well, to the point of being expected of all bags. Response to mold may have been a reason why the genes for producing certain volatiles were around in some isolated strain, but for the totally different reason of an evolved chemical defense against fungi, not further requiring fungi. I speculate that the main reason why bud odor changes with time - on and off the plant - is because some volatiles are more prevalent or more volatile or more unstable than others.
If I don't know what exactly is in RKS, what the things in a GC/MS analysis smell like by themselves or all together, what exactly happens to hash in goatskin, and what 3,5-dimethyl-2-propylpyrazine and 2-methoxy-3-(1- methylethyl)pyrazine smell like, that's a lot that I don't know, and, I admit I don't know. The scientists who suspected that those pyrazines were 2% of the volatiles of NL weren't even totally sure - and they were like, hey, we're not sure. Being scientists, they did not even speculate why those were there or what pharmacological impact they have on the smoker.
1) this thread *needs* to be a sticky.
2) perhaps some informed person can attribute this odor to a terpene? sometimes when i crumble a bud it releases a pungent odor that i can only associate with opening a plastic wrapped ham (not something i've done for many years) - really in your face "ripe". it's a pretty common effect i remember more with lemony strains like afghan haze and sour lemon o.g.
2) perhaps some informed person can attribute this odor to a terpene? sometimes when i crumble a bud it releases a pungent odor that i can only associate with opening a plastic wrapped ham (not something i've done for many years) - really in your face "ripe". it's a pretty common effect i remember more with lemony strains like afghan haze and sour lemon o.g.
Bubbleblower
Member
Exactly
I just realised the thiols in a Scheurebe smell completely different than that of a skunk. Upon reading more (on wine faults) I learned thiol can smell like burned rubber (“Paak”) too. Precisely the scRKS and burned rubber pheno's are the ones you will never forget and always recognise. The same would probably go for any substance with such a low perception treshold as pyrazine.
Yeah, you'd think it would be found more often then. An explanation why the pheno is not even found in California anymore is you may also need Afghani's that are not adjusted to local pests and diseases yet. The grey mold of course is highly speculative based on a story, it could be anything, just like the other pieces of the puzzle.
The skunk cabbage idea I think is not. What are the odds a random event takes place in Northern California 90% of the time and 0% of the time in Europe? Obviously zero, the event can not be random, something unique to those regions must explain the difference.
“Terpenes are generally considered to be plant or fungal metabolites, although a small number of odoriferous terpenes of bacterial origin have been known for many years. Recently, extensive bacterial genome sequencing and bioinformatic analysis of deduced bacterial proteins using a profile based on a hidden Markov model have revealed 262 distinct predicted terpene synthases.”:
Terpene synthases are widely distributed in bacteria (PDF)
G.O. Joe, you silver tongue devil, these are my thoughts exactly!
But I could not ever convey my thoughts correctly.
I feel the odor profile is ever changing, like you specify on and off the plant.
Each pheno has its own time for peak, and this is very subjective to user interaction.
We all gravitate more toward one thing or another!
shag
Pepe le skunk
Member
Something I found interesteing was THCV requires an additional dea license for tests to be run in Colorado according to a testing center owner.
Also interesting is one story about that Black Durban (African Black magic) supposedly(story, rumor, perhaps) having a 35% thcv test result because so many tripped out on it they wanted to see if it was laced. Some African strains, like Malawi, contain thcv and might help explain why african strains are more trippy than other strains.
Am aware of sams thoughts on thcv not being specifically psyco active but perhaps it works in conjunction, like cbd, but a more synergistic effect when combined with thc...
Thoughts???
Great thread Sea.
Also interesting is one story about that Black Durban (African Black magic) supposedly(story, rumor, perhaps) having a 35% thcv test result because so many tripped out on it they wanted to see if it was laced. Some African strains, like Malawi, contain thcv and might help explain why african strains are more trippy than other strains.
Am aware of sams thoughts on thcv not being specifically psyco active but perhaps it works in conjunction, like cbd, but a more synergistic effect when combined with thc...
Thoughts???
Great thread Sea.
Sylvester1
New member
Standards are DEA exempt at the 1 mg/mL level, same as THC.
Full Spectrum applied for DEA registration, but says they "didn't need to do so."
That's almost 5 years old, and perhaps DEA now recognizes that restriction. But THCV standards aren't restricted. Perhaps they are covering their bases under the Federal Analog Act, in that THCV is similar to THC. But even then, standards of 1 mg/mL or less of THC aren't restricted.
Bubbleblower
Member
Mmmm, that has happened before, a lot of people are convinced Thai was laced. I was always one of them, because the effect is incomparable to any other weed or hash I have ever smoked. One evening a friend and I smoked a huge joint of it by the beach and next we sat there watching the seagulls untill the next morning. Seagulls are very spectacular stuntpilots. That Thai literally made you trip.
Who knows the explanation for that was THCV then.
Alpha Pinene, Actanol, Bornyl Acetate, Linalool, Octyl Acetate, Incensole and Incensyl Acetate.
Incensole acetate elicits psychoactivity by activating TRPV3 channels in the brain
B
Baron Greenback
Some excellent posts. The capturing of the aromatic hydrocarbons which are the most volatile is difficult. I believe the current drying/curing paradigm does not capture them very well, this is why I dry with a dehumidifier, reducing the time for them to disappear.
Freeze drying the fresh buds is the best way to protect the most vulnerable terpenes and expand the shelf life too.
Keep on growing
Keep on growing
It's the best way to lose most of the volatile constituents very efficiently and very fast (common knowledge and experienced dozen times myself with plants other than cannabis). Lyophilised tea for example has to be reconstituted with essential oils. Nowadays, these are usually recovered from the cold trap and often mixed with cyclodextrines prior to putting them back to the dried plant matter.
Besides, lyophilised stuff contains well below 5% residual humidity (if done right, well below 1%) and due to this and the whole lyophilisation process will burn very differently (faster and hotter -> good night THC). The only thing that makes freeze dried weed more durable is said absence of residual water...
In order to avoid sublimation/evaporation of essential oils, use high atmospheric pressure and certainly no vacuum! Has to do with their high gas pressure which lets them evaporate well below boiling point and even in a frozen state
.
Freeze drying the fresh buds is the best way to protect the most vulnerable terpenes and expand the shelf life too.
Keep on growing
To remove oxygen, I use a product called Private Preserver that us wine snobs use to keep opened wine "fresh". It is a blend Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide and Argon (no oxygen or impurities) that slows oxidation to a crawl...available on Amazon and most wine shops for under $10 and will deliver 120 uses (4 spurts of air for each bottle/use).
It looks like a bottle of wine...sort of.
IMHO, a must for long term storage. No freezer burn or moisture issues (or lack thereof) that freezed buds can exhibit.
That's very cool! I mean, really seriously very cool!! Thanks for sharing!
Nitrogen and argon are commonly used to protect fragile and reactive chemicals. Unlike nitrogen, argon is heavier than air, sinks down, and stays in the bottle/vial but is quite expensive. I didn't know that one can buy it in small cartridges for home use.
Putting your harvest under such a protective atmosphere (and storing it in the fride) is certainly the best way to protect it! Snobby, true, but very cool!
I say, adopt the best practices from all disciplines and ignore what doesn't work.
Freshness in wine...weed, same same here. LOL.
Freshness in wine...weed, same same here. LOL.
It's the best way to lose most of the volatile constituents very efficiently and very fast (common knowledge and experienced dozen times myself with plants other than cannabis). Lyophilised tea for example has to be reconstituted with essential oils. Nowadays, these are usually recovered from the cold trap and often mixed with cyclodextrines prior to putting them back to the dried plant matter.
Besides, lyophilised stuff contains well below 5% residual humidity (if done right, well below 1%) and due to this and the whole lyophilisation process will burn very differently (faster and hotter -> good night THC). The only thing that makes freeze dried weed more durable is said absence of residual water...
In order to avoid sublimation/evaporation of essential oils, use high atmospheric pressure and certainly no vacuum! Has to do with their high gas pressure which lets them evaporate well below boiling point and even in a frozen state
Found only one pdf file about what you describe above, but for Cannabis or any other aromatic herb more research need to be done.
http://www.agir.ro/buletine/1301.pdf
I did use Oregano from this brand which is freeze dried in the past, but the smell didn't remind me from the particular smell of dried oregano.Remind me more of Parsley
Keep on growing
