The search for a proper recovery pump..

[Gray Wolf]

I am not going to care about noise for now. I want lowest dollar to chill stuff and things. I'll use all the SS tubing in coils necessary and have no problem seeing how an off the shelf industrial unit may help.

I don't like dry ice pricing. I guess liquid nitrogen is my next investigation, and I mentioned eco-friendly antifreeze and didn't hear any opinions?

As for air temps effecting AC's there are water chilled AC units. I could see circulating some 40* eco-frendly antifreeze over an AC unit instead of water or water if we must. I want to use all liquids to heat or cool various processes in production. So I am really looking for a thermo dynamic flow solution to chill to -40 and heat to 300+

On the heating side of things I note that simple green in water dilution boils at appx 270* 5,420' elevation.

"I'm tired of patiently waiting around hungry and have decided to go out and kill something for food............"

I just picked up a couple -40C refrigeration plants for walk-in freezers, to experiment with alternatives to dry ice or liquid N2.

I also have a couple stainless 1,200,000 BTU tube and shell heat exchangers coming, which in conjunction with -40C chilled 50/50 methanol, should add a whole new dimension to our game.

All in route and due next week.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Sadly we don't have a decibel meter, but the anecdotal "ear pan" test, shows that the Appion G-5 is the noisiest, followed by the TR-21, and a toss up between the CM EP and CM EP OL.

Both about as noisy as a loud refrigerator.

More testing over the weekend.

 

[JColtrane]

Sadly we don't have a decibel meter, but the anecdotal "ear pan" test, shows that the Appion G-5 is the noisiest, followed by the TR-21, and a toss up between the CM EP and CM EP OL.

Both about as noisy as a loud refrigerator.

More testing over the weekend.

But that CM EP's edge's are SHARP AS FUCK!!! Brother's and Sister
s, please wear glove's while extracting with this pump ... or at least have a first aid kit around, lol

 

[Hydrosun]

"I'm tired of patiently waiting around hungry and have decided to go out and kill something for food............"

I just picked up a couple -40C refrigeration plants for walk-in freezers, to experiment with alternatives to dry ice or liquid N2.

I also have a couple stainless 1,200,000 BTU tube and shell heat exchangers coming, which in conjunction with -40C chilled 50/50 methanol, should add a whole new dimension to our game.

All in route and due next week.

I am driving up with Harriet to bug you, the wife, your kid, and the dog....

with love.

 

[SkyHighLer]

Fuck I just had a 3 page post I was working on and my phone died! This time I'll try to be more organized and go post by post.

Hydro I think you misunderstood sky's point. He's talking about only using the fan and coils, not the compressor, it will not cool below ambient air temp. If you want -40 I think di or nitrogen is you only choice. If you can settle on -20 a freezer like mine will do unless you want to shell out 8-14k for a Cascade style freezer.

Chump change, Initial drop, g5 and get back to you. Get fucking back to you?!? How bout you try that idea if it's so bad ass and get back to me eh??? The burden of proof is on you not me my friend. Chump change? Using That fan in combination with a freezer, or just the freezer alone will require the SAME amount of energy. Btu is btu. Energy is energy. This is an ancient alchemical concept. Big picture dude, You can only get out what you put in. What matters is how you convert the energy which human beings suck at with our current 60hz technology but it's more profitable then tesla ' s 4hz earth driven technology that is locked in the Vatican vault.

That particular fan is for a house unit which is meant to be quiet which means it's not moving much air. I have 2 - 30" 6000 cfm 3 amp 120V 1/3 hp fans in my greenhouse. The actual motor you can't hear over the loud as shit noise of the fan blades literally chopping the air. I've done indoor for over a decade. I know fans. Any typical fan with blades, on planet earth, will make more noise, from chopping the air, the more cfm it's moving.

So much negativity? Dude seriously? How bout so much narcissistic condensing bullshit? Your telling us basically to not knock it until we try it, so how bout YOU try it. I for one am getting tired of you telling me (us) how to test our solvent, how to distill our solvent, what equipment to buy and how to run our systems. I have an extremely good memory and attention to detail and I'm almost positive your not even an extractor. I remember well your post with the pic of yourself saying you couldn't go to jail because it would literally kill you, being scared of having the leftovers of a 30# tank of blend. You were also scared to have sean send you a tank to test. You call him and cuss him out but then you refuse to do the test you claim is the only way to know?!? Any analytical scientist would laugh at your bro - science "homie" test. If it was illegal to posses butane or propane than everyone with a gas stove or a lighter in their pocket would be in jail! I can't at all see you being caught dead in a lab. A grand is a lot of money for a glorified coil.

The freezer is a kenmore with express chill. It will rock -20F all day, express chill takes it -30F for 72 hours I believe, not 24. Yes it's low btu but we are banking on the concept of heat sink. Over night the condensor sinks heat (the difference in temperature between two systems) into the contents of the freezer. Which is why he has all the void filled with ice. This heat then transfers to the glycol and then the coils. If you ran it 24 hours a day it wouldn't work but it can catch up during the 12 to 16 hours your not running your system. Denser material would hold more heat (cold) but then you run into weight issues so water is fine.

I skipped the upgrade to subzero this go round, that will be for next year with a slew of other upgrades but I was going to put the holes in the side as close to the top as possible. How is opening the lid with the lines in it? No issues? If your not putting spools in the freezer you can line in with pond liner and just fill the whole thing with glycol and water. That might get expensive though but would give you more material for the heat sink. I got the 22 cubic foot biggest one for the heat sink purpose, if you can only fit 4 buckets then you got the smaller one yes? I'm using 5 gallon old nutrient containers that are square with the lid cutoff to make ice. You could use those for your coils, the square is more space efficient and you might be able to fit more coils as I thought I read somewhere else you could only fit 4. These containers actually fit 2 side by side perfectly!!! However for, making ice, the water expands and then I couldn't get the containers out so now I have them stacked.

I wouldn't want it in my shop either. What happens if an inversion layer or omega pattern sets in and it's unusually hot for a few days. Or what about summer time when it 100 degrees. That thing ain't doing shit but wasting energy imo and I don't want to reconfigure my system constantly based on the weather.

The freezer works bro. I can make 25 gallons of ice in 2 days if I cycle the containers properly. It's working for A6 and I know two other people off forum that are doing subzero with freezers. In no man's land we can't get di easily. It does work it's ass off which is why I payed the extra 250 for the 5 year master warranty. I'm no expert either but I'm pretty sure the refrigerant cools as it expands, just like your material spool starts getting very cold if you recover to -5hg. The compressor compresses the vapor into liquid and the creates heat which is why the compressor is outside of the insulated cabinet. The liquid is released into the coils and as it expands and evaporates it gives off the heat energy (cold) that the compressor used via electricity to compress the vapor into liquid and the cycle continues. These kenmore use R134a I believe.

yes by energy you mean heat obviously. Once again, it's all energy dude, using a fan will be less efficient than the totally contained environment of the freezer. You'll be using alot of electricity to push fan blades to chop air that isn't all running over the coils. Which is why fins are used to maximize the efficiency. You'll not save any "energy", your wasting it too simply from the noise, it takes energy to compress the sound waves which is caused by the resistance the air is giving the blades. Think big picture it's all energy but what's important is how efficiently we convert it.

yes, this is the goal, condense the vapor into liquid faster. Yes adding some air cooling will maybe make it a little faster, but how much faster is probably negligible. I agree 100% queequeg.

Wfm

Oh, and when the blogs and mag articles start blowing that CLS's have a whole plethora of solvent contamination issues... forget who stood up, and was told to sit down.

 

[Permacultuure]

Wfm

Oh, and when the blogs and mag articles start blowing that CLS's have a whole plethora of solvent contamination issues... forget who stood up, and was told to sit down.

I'm not sure what these could be? I agree that there are certain suppliers whose 99.5 is dirtier than some of the nicest canned butane. But through proper distillation this can be cleaned up a in a day's work. On a production level the waste involved with can tapping is horrendous. Being able to use refillable bottles is a huge factor in sticking with large gas suppliers, even if it means a day of distillation.

I did hear a lecture from the chief chemist at a local lab discuss how solvents can be contaminated with pesticides. It seems that certain pesticides bond or vaporize with the solvents and can contaminate future batches. Dumping your tank would solve this issue.

 

[Sunfire]

Sadly we don't have a decibel meter, but the anecdotal "ear pan" test, shows that the Appion G-5 is the noisiest, followed by the TR-21, and a toss up between the CM EP and CM EP OL.

Both about as noisy as a loud refrigerator.

More testing over the weekend.

Look at that collection! I've had the opportunity to see the original cmep and I think it's extremely quiet. If it a toss up between that and the cmepol then I'm excited! God I can't wait until next fall to upgrade everything. It's going to be tough to keep following the threads to stay current while I'm not extracting for six months!

 

[SkyHighLer]

<snip>

So much negativity? Dude seriously? How bout so much narcissistic condensing bullshit? Your telling us basically to not knock it until we try it, so how bout YOU try it. I for one am getting tired of you telling me (us) how to test our solvent, how to distill our solvent, what equipment to buy and how to run our systems. I have an extremely good memory and attention to detail and I'm almost positive your not even an extractor. I remember well your post with the pic of yourself saying you couldn't go to jail because it would literally kill you, being scared of having the leftovers of a 30# tank of blend. You were also scared to have sean send you a tank to test. You call him and cuss him out but then you refuse to do the test you claim is the only way to know?!? Any analytical scientist would laugh at your bro - science "homie" test. If it was illegal to posses butane or propane than everyone with a gas stove or a lighter in their pocket would be in jail! I can't at all see you being caught dead in a lab. A grand is a lot of money for a glorified coil.

<snip>

I take issue with "How bout so much narcissistic condensing bullshit?" lol...

If you find my demeanor or truthfulness in question, compare Professor Brainard's, or SkyHighLer's, or heck, gee gosh, my Natal Chart,

http://alabe.com/cgi-bin/chart/astr...na&COUNTRY=USA&STATE=CA&INPUT9=&Submit=Submit

I have the long version, it's even more concisely accurate.

Do your own if you have your exact time and place of birth, it's free. See if you are accepting your position, and appointed activity.

 

[A6 Grower]

The freezer is a kenmore with express chill. It will rock -20F all day, express chill takes it -30F for 72 hours I believe, not 24. Yes it's low btu but we are banking on the concept of heat sink. Over night the condensor sinks heat (the difference in temperature between two systems) into the contents of the freezer. Which is why he has all the void filled with ice. This heat then transfers to the glycol and then the coils. If you ran it 24 hours a day it wouldn't work but it can catch up during the 12 to 16 hours your not running your system. Denser material would hold more heat (cold) but then you run into weight issues so water is fine.

Coolest cheapest freezer out there!!! Ya it does -30f for 72 hours but i never use it that long, works awesome though. I thought i was a google master when i found it lol

I skipped the upgrade to subzero this go round, that will be for next year with a slew of other upgrades but I was going to put the holes in the side as close to the top as possible. How is opening the lid with the lines in it? No issues? If your not putting spools in the freezer you can line in with pond liner and just fill the whole thing with glycol and water. That might get expensive though but would give you more material for the heat sink. I got the 22 cubic foot biggest one for the heat sink purpose, if you can only fit 4 buckets then you got the smaller one yes? I'm using 5 gallon old nutrient containers that are square with the lid cutoff to make ice. You could use those for your coils, the square is more space efficient and you might be able to fit more coils as I thought I read somewhere else you could only fit 4. These containers actually fit 2 side by side perfectly!!! However for, making ice, the water expands and then I couldn't get the containers out so now I have them stacked.

Yup i got the smaller one as my extraction machine room is kinda small. Opening the lid with the lines in it is just fine. I had to make the holes kinda big to get the hose end threw but i used duct tape to close the gaps a little to kinda seal it but still let the hoses move freely when i open the lid. Was not going to drill holes in one of thoe 2k+ sub zero -40F freezers lol. I might give the just glycol in the freezer thing a try, the only reason i didnt do that is i only bought 5g of glycol and ice was convenient and super cheap lol

I wouldn't want it in my shop either. What happens if an inversion layer or omega pattern sets in and it's unusually hot for a few days. Or what about summer time when it 100 degrees. That thing ain't doing shit but wasting energy imo and I don't want to reconfigure my system constantly based on the weather.

That was my thought, i havnt even experince summer in this shop yet lol. Couldn't plan on that at all.

The freezer works bro. I can make 25 gallons of ice in 2 days if I cycle the containers properly. It's working for A6 and I know two other people off forum that are doing subzero with freezers. In no man's land we can't get di easily. It does work it's ass off which is why I payed the extra 250 for the 5 year master warranty. I'm no expert either but I'm pretty sure the refrigerant cools as it expands, just like your material spool starts getting very cold if you recover to -5hg. The compressor compresses the vapor into liquid and the creates heat which is why the compressor is outside of the insulated cabinet. The liquid is released into the coils and as it expands and evaporates it gives off the heat energy (cold) that the compressor used via electricity to compress the vapor into liquid and the cycle continues. These kenmore use R134a I believe.

Ya the warranty is a must for almost anything we use lol, i abuse the hell out of my equipment!

yes by energy you mean heat obviously. Once again, it's all energy dude, using a fan will be less efficient than the totally contained environment of the freezer. You'll be using alot of electricity to push fan blades to chop air that isn't all running over the coils. Which is why fins are used to maximize the efficiency. You'll not save any "energy", your wasting it too simply from the noise, it takes energy to compress the sound waves which is caused by the resistance the air is giving the blades. Think big picture it's all energy but what's important is how efficiently we convert it.

yes, this is the goal, condense the vapor into liquid faster. Yes adding some air cooling will maybe make it a little faster, but how much faster is probably negligible. I agree 100% queequeg.

You dont want to run oil in a wind tunnel??? lol

 

[Sunfire]

You know when I first heard "cotton candy tech" that's what I thought!!! What if we do cure with a heated wind tunnel and whip out super super thin strings of oil and crush them up, that might be the super jammer!

Rv winterizer is 5 bucks a gallon at home depot and handles down to -50. Says you'll see a little slush though.

I know my western astrology, vedic astrology and human design charts very well. Yes by definition you words are condescending and narcissistic just as mine are rude and abbrasive. I'm seriously tired of you acting like extraction king when you don't extract. Holy shit dude I know people who have been doing it all day everyday for years and are still trying to figure it out. They like thousand page log books. The technology and equipment is to dynamic and constantly changing it's extremely hard to keep up and I'm constantly frustrated with myself so now you get the overflow of that because your energy channels are vibrating with that same frequency. Sorry dude, I totally accept who I am, which is why I'm not ashamed of anything I've said.

 

[queequeg152]

yes, this is the goal, condense the vapor into liquid faster. Yes adding some air cooling will maybe make it a little faster, but how much faster is probably negligible. I agree 100% queequeg.

this thread moves faster than i am comfortable with, so forgive me if im misinterpreting something here.... but you seem to suggest that im dismissive of this idea.

While i dont agree with using the condensing unit as an after cooler, im not dismissive of the aftercooler idea itself, what so ever. even an air cooled unit could potentialy work very well.

the problem is that condensing unit condensers are designed around the compressor equipment, and as such is exceptionally thin and very very large. if you roll out a 5 ton unit... there like the size of a kids bed. IMO what you would want is a far thicker multi pass unit with a ducted fan similar to what you see in car radiators.

after coolers CAN be beneficial... by cooling the exhaust vapor down, even if you cant liquify it, you are reducing the head pressure that the pump is working against.

this SHOULD equate to faster pumping, less wear and tear, and possibly reducing the current draw on the pump itself.

all pumps typically have published curves... perhaps dig out the ones for this particular unit.

id be curious to see someone data log their refrigerant scale and pressure gauges... with a go pro perhaps?
perform one run with and without and see whats possible.

alternativly, someone could head over to that forum... refrigeration engineering.com, and solicit information from someone far more knowledgeable.

 

[Sunfire]

No I'm not suggesting any dismissive-nes. Sorry if I rubbed you wrong there. All I'm saying is on a 100 degree day air cooling probably won't help as much as the electricity and footprint that unit would cost. If I lived somewhere that had lots of snow I'd totally rake advantage of it but it was 84F here today, yikes! I remember gw saying someone took a finned aluminum block and strapped it to the head of the tr21 to disperse more heat. Maybe a small fan blowing on that would help for sure.

Another thing to consider is the additional heat and contamination in the shop. I have emergency ventilation setup to where if something happens I hit the switch as I run out the door to grab the fire extinguisher. However a good sized fan running constantly will add to contamination and I'm super ocd about every spec of dust. With the two seeds mats for my pre-purge technique and the pumps as is, the shop space gets pretty warm. Having another motor running and more heat being taken off the pumps into the shop would make me want to get a lab assistant with a nice ass in a bikini! As skyhighler pointed out, one could duct the air outside as bonus ventilation but as I said I don't run the ventilation constantly anymore because of contamination, but that's just me and my ocd.

I'd also like to make an open and public apology to skyhighler. It's been a rough week for me. However I truly meant all of it but I for sure could have worded it better and I apologize for not being more diplomatic and kinder. I always tell people the honey and vinegar thing and I'm amazed at how often I find myself to be a hypocrite.

 

[Permacultuure]

I'm not sure what these could be? I agree that there are certain suppliers whose 99.5 is dirtier than some of the nicest canned butane. But through proper distillation this can be cleaned up a in a day's work. On a production level the waste involved with can tapping is horrendous. Being able to use refillable bottles is a huge factor in sticking with large gas suppliers, even if it means a day of distillation.

I did hear a lecture from the chief chemist at a local lab discuss how solvents can be contaminated with pesticides. It seems that certain pesticides bond or vaporize with the solvents and can contaminate future batches. Dumping your tank would solve this issue.

So you guys want to stop this completely irrelevant banter and talk about pertinent info? Please.....

Has anyone heard of pesticide contamination of solvents? It's makes sense that this could be a hidden epidemic on the rise.

Especially with the broad mite epidemic that is upon us. I know many growers these days are using horrible pesticides in a very unprofessional and irresponsible way. I'm sure there's another thread for this but.....,

 

[Sunfire]

Lol the air cooling discussion is just as pertinent is this thread as pesticide contamination. The other stuff isn't and is hopefully now officially done with.

So i assume your talking about the solvent getting contaminated by the material that has residuals from pesticides yes? Cyclamen are actually not the big issue, it's the hemp russet mites.

Yes lots of growers don't follow a proper ipm schedule, and use chemicals they've never researched. The re-aplication time on the bottles is a good idea of the residual time but isn't precise at all. I personally research all the pesticides i use, organic, synthetic, and plant derived single isolated compounds. I've had this discussion many time with friends in regards to our harvest but not with solvent.

If you know the half life of the pesticide in question, and the real residual times you can make your product much safer. Similar to solvent in oil, you can get undetectable levels at ppm, but what about billionth and trillionth?

So pretty much my theory is that I give ample time for the residual levels to get low with the pesticides. The longer residual stuff I spray first and work my way down to the shortest. I usually have about 7 or so products in my ipm system and part of good ipm is never spraying the same thing twice in a round. Outdoor is much longer cycles and I do the regiment once in veg. And once in flower. All the lab tested residual detectable time frames are given more than that by time harvest comes around. There's also the time it takes for harvest, dry, cure, and trim. And I'm under the impression the half life increases speed when the material is dried.

So to try to give my opinion on you question. Yes I do see how that could be possible. One would have to find out though if your solvent will carry those organic or synthetic compounds however. If it's a hurried indoor situation where they spray the gnarly chem a week before harvest and wet trim and have it sold and processed within a week I could totally see contamination happening. I've heard of people who don't love their ladies, not notice the infestation until later in the cycle and will spray avid like 3 times in a row a few days apart, way too close to harvest. Unfortunately there's a lot of jackasses out there that just want to make money and don't care about clean meds.

Your concern is scary because it would be really hard to steer clear of such instances unless your source is well known and trusted. Maybe in regulated states the material should be tested for pesticide residuals before the extractors utilize it

 

[Sunfire]

I'll just further add. The pesticide thing is a huge deal among farmers with a conscience. There's many labs locally that do analytical to test for pesticides and a lot of clubs are making it as standard as residual solvent tests. If you already have a good connection to an analytical lab it may not cost too much to get some random samples out of a bag of trim tested before running it. Make the grower pay for it too but do the sample collection yourself.

 

[Permacultuure]

Yeah that discussion was really going places. I'm running to the scrape yard now to get a super big coil and fan to replace by extremely efficient 25' after chiller.

Pesticides are the dirty secret of most growers so unless your only extracting your own material, which I believe is your situation sunfire, your at risk for contamination.

I'll move this discussion somewhere else so you guys can continue to talk about this hypothetical after chiller. Good work fellas!

 

[Sunfire]

Oh come on bro, don't go. I think it was dumb too but I'm trying to honor other people's opinions.

This is really a pump thread and hopefully gw will swoop in soon and change all of it back to his cmepol reports that I'm on the edge of my seat for!

Until then, your right bro, as I said people tend to lie a lot about their herb, not just from ego but to try to fetch a better price tag as well.

I honestly don't know so I ask you, do you think it would be too much time and money/effort to get material tested first? Think it would go over well with the grower if you asked them to pay for it before extracting? If one is simply buying trim from people, would it sour the deal to test it first? If you don't trust or know them then idk how to do it. Just meet up and reach in and grab a random handful and tell them you'll contact them in a few days? Lmao they would have a really weird look on their face!

 

[Permacultuure]

Hey guys, guess what.....the search is over!

Pop bottles and make it rain!!! the proper recovery pump has been found!!!

It's a Haskel! It can be ran off of 60 Amps single phase and you can get into it for under 8k pump included. If you choose to continue chasing the Chinese dream or american tr ripoff scheme that is making johnstone and its distributors too much money by all means continue.

The answer is there, man up or stop complaining about shitty pumps.....I'm starting to feel like a broken record....

Sun fire, I appreciate your input on pesticides ect, let's continue this discussion in thread I will start after work tonight where it is relevant.

 

[Sunfire]

Cool bro. I mean I pretty much said all I know. Maybe I'll cut copy and paste what I said over there.

Eesh, 60 amps is crazy. Idk if I can pull that off in the middle of nowhere. I agree that's the ultimate pump currently and you right about chasing the Chinese dream. Hopefully the cmepol will be better by time I'm ready to purchase next fall. I'll contemplate the haskel. Is it extremely loud with the air compressor and all? Take up a lot of footprint in the shop?

 

[A6 Grower]

Cool bro. I mean I pretty much said all I know. Maybe I'll cut copy and paste what I said over there.

Eesh, 60 amps is crazy. Idk if I can pull that off in the middle of nowhere. I agree that's the ultimate pump currently and you right about chasing the Chinese dream. Hopefully the cmepol will be better by time I'm ready to purchase next fall. I'll contemplate the haskel. Is it extremely loud with the air compressor and all? Take up a lot of footprint in the shop?

Ya i came to the realization im already using 120 amps in my 200 amp shop lol... gonna have to get rid of some stuff or ask the neighbor to borrow some amps. Or move the lab, which is maybe going to happen more building I could probably get away with it but it would be MAXED out but i usually don't have everything on at once but there could be a day where it would happen. Never maxed out a box that much, most ive done was 150amp/200amp.

The little Chinese pumps kinda work well for me since i run multiple machines. I dont have room for 2 or 3 haskels lol. For me id rather have 3 Good proper pumps and maybe spend a tiny bit more then 1 bad ass haskel.

Only way i could run multiple machines on a haskel would be having 1 large 200# tank feeding a 1" cooling coil then multiple machines and an intake manifold on the haskel for machine recovery selection correct? Would it even be capable of that? Maybe i should askt his in the haskel thread lol