The search for a proper recovery pump..

[Sunfire]

Also, not everyone is on your guys' level with multiple machines. 8k is alot for some folk.

I'm not complaining, I love my the tr21. Twice the speed and exposing proof for three times the cost for a cmepol sounds appealing. But I'll contemplate the haskel for the future.

 

[cerkilr]

ok I am new hear, and to CLS. so i read this whole thread from the start. so besides going Haskel route, the trs21 with a cooler is still the best option to date for a budget?

If i order trs21 how do i make sure i get a one with stainless fittings?
and does anyone have a recommendation for supplier?

Thanks

 

[Sunfire]

Well you saw the pics, I believe Perma posted, of the trs internals. It's not explosion proof and it apparently isn't stainless and apparantly they have some bugs to work out, so I gather anyways.

Just get the regular tr21. Less expensive and easier to obtain. I'm loving mine.

Just Google the best price you can find and always call before ordering to check availability. The website stock numbers always lie.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Well, yesterday afternoon was scheduled for Skunk Pharm Research testing, but alas when we went to load it for transport, it was gone, so testing was postponed until we could lay hands on the varmit whut took it.

As it turns out, sneaky Wayward Wolf borrowed it on the fly to rescue a DIY operation he was helping start up in the land of WA, without notification or prior discussion.

On balance, thwarted and pissed three people off in the land of OR, while rescuing and gladdening the heart of three in WA.

Because they simply used it for practical purposes, vis a vis running a controlled experiment with recorded times and weights, only anecdotal data is available.

They also hooked the CM EP OL into a system previously running a TR-21/MT-69 combination, and left the MT-69 in place, so the recovery rates were compromised some, but he noted that it distilled a 30# tank of R-600 in about an hour and estimated it was as fast as three TR-21's.

Empirically, the unit performed without issue and discharged a stream at about 96F, which the MT-69 dropped another 4F, using an ice bath.

Today we will resume the originally scheduled tests at the Pharm and record those numbers to share. I can hopefully get them to ya'll before Tuesday morn, cause we are planning to vacation in sunny downtown Eugene on that day, delivering and bringing SN-0009, a Mk VC, owner named Beast on line, as well as training the proud new owners operating team.

If not, they should be available by Wednesday.

 

[gholladay]

Well, yesterday afternoon was scheduled for Skunk Pharm Research testing, but alas when we went to load it for transport, it was gone, so testing was postponed until we could lay hands on the varmit whut took it.

As it turns out, sneaky Wayward Wolf borrowed it on the fly to rescue a DIY operation he was helping start up in the land of WA, without notification or prior discussion.

On balance, thwarted and pissed three people off in the land of OR, while rescuing and gladdening the heart of three in WA.

Because they simply used it for practical purposes, vis a vis running a controlled experiment with recorded times and weights, only anecdotal data is available.

They also hooked the CM EP OL into a system previously running a TR-21/MT-69 combination, and left the MT-69 in place, so the recovery rates were compromised some, but he noted that it distilled a 30# tank of R-600 in about an hour and estimated it was as fast as three TR-21's.

Empirically, the unit performed without issue and discharged a stream at about 96F, which the MT-69 dropped another 4F, using an ice bath.

Today we will resume the originally scheduled tests at the Pharm and record those numbers to share. I can hopefully get them to ya'll before Tuesday morn, cause we are planning to vacation in sunny downtown Eugene on that day, delivering and bringing SN-0009, a Mk VC, owner named Beast on line, as well as training the proud new owners operating team.

If not, they should be available by Wednesday.

Good report GW. Thanks! Looking forward to hearing more results.

GH

 

[Sunfire]

Oi, we need to know the temps they distilled at. A 30# tank only has 14#s of actual solvent, that seems kinda slow compared to my two tr21s. Am I missing something?

I know when you get her back in your hands you'll get the goods, with an 80F water bath, not for distilling, my two tr21 are moving at least 20#s in an hour.

How did the mt69 only drop the temp that little? The in on my coils are hot and the outs have water condensation on them because they are so cold, with just an ice bath.

Damn it's crazy how everyone's system is so different.

96F out is way better than the 150F I'm seeing with the tr21

 

[cerkilr]

i dont mean to hijack this treat, but does anyone have a recovery tank they recommend?

or just make sure it has the down stem?

 

[Gray Wolf]

Oi, we need to know the temps they distilled at. A 30# tank only has 14#s of actual solvent, that seems kinda slow compared to my two tr21s. Am I missing something?

I know when you get her back in your hands you'll get the goods, with an 80F water bath, not for distilling, my two tr21 are moving at least 20#s in an hour.

How did the mt69 only drop the temp that little? The in on my coils are hot and the outs have water condensation on them because they are so cold, with just an ice bath.

Damn it's crazy how everyone's system is so different.

96F out is way better than the 150F I'm seeing with the tr21

Look at his entry temperature. The drop is a function of the delta T. With a lower delta T, the drop will be less.

I've see up to 174F heads on a TR-21 under vacuum, but they run cooler when distilling, because of the steady gas stream carrying away the heat. Once under vacuum, there is less flow, and the hotter they get.

 

[Sunfire]

Well good sir, have you broken that cmepol yet?

 

[Gray Wolf]

No, but I haven't talked to the team that ran it for the last few days running production, cause I've been over the hill and far away since Thursday, helping install a Mk VB, which was running a Haskel.

 

[Gray Wolf]

What we did do, was run the Haskel in both single and double stage, using my two three way valve design and it worked slick both ways.

Mk VB SN-0009, "Mad Shatter" was equipped with a triple core dry ice/alcohol heat exchanger, and running our pot heat at 85F, we were able to run the whole process in single stage, and pull to -22", before backfilling with nitrogen and pulling to -29" using the CMS VP6S.

We held it long enough to fluff the extract into a gorgeous light blonde powder dry cotton candy shatter, and I would share a picture but my camera card appears to be corrupted and I need to seek professional help with it. I can see the pictures on my D-80, but my computer can't read them to down load.

WW also took pictures with his phone, so I will see if I can hijack some of those.

I did one recovery cycle on the water trap, drier, and heat exchanger system, to prove the system, and did need two stage to pull it off. The system can be valved to allow the Haskel to recover the butane between its discharge and the storage tank, and pump it into an axillary cylinder.

Because there are no heat exchangers in that circuit, to minimize vapor between the pump and tank, it gets hot, even in an ice bath and drives the pressure up high enough on the discharge side, to require two stage at 50 psi inlet air pressure to the pump drive cylinder.

Rather than increase the air pressure when it stalled out in single stage, I switched to double stage and left the air pressure at 50 psi.

Under the operating conditions we ran at, the Haskel hit around 60 strokes a minute at around 50 psi.

I couldn't tell much difference in noise levels single or double, with the loudest component being the hammering of the check valve when the spool shifts, which is not near damaging levels, but a steady hammering in the background.

We were impressed with how quiet the sweet leeedle Chicago Pneumatic 10 hp 3 ph rotary screw compressor was. We were seriously unimpressed when it wouldn't start and run after being plugged in, but upon reaching customer support at Portland Compressor, we located the reset button and switched the three phase legs to reverse the polarity, after which it purred like a cat.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Here is a shot of the first test run from WW's phone cam.

 

[HG23]

Thanks for the info GW,

How much solvent would you say you recovered from the discharge side with both the heat exchanger and water trap in the system?

How was the heat exchanger setup? Did they split the Haskel exhaust between the two 25' coils or just run it through one?

How would you compare the recovery speeds you witnessed with the Haskel to other users of the same model extractor who use two TR-21's?

Would you estimate the recovery speed of the Haskel and CMEP-OL to be in the same realm?

From my point of view right now, if the CMEP-OL gets the same safety rating, will appease a fire marshal, and is at least somewhat comparable in recovery times, it will be a much easier pump option to implement and maintain, given that it holds up to the wear and tear we need it to. With the air compressor costs and maintaince that come with a Haskel, a couple OL's could be had at comparable cost. They are also much easier to move and setup. Also, while switching a few more valves and keeping an eye on another set of pressure gauges during extraction wouldn't really be a problem for me, I would rather not add them to the mix unless there is a clear advantage to their presence. What do you think?

 

[Permacultuure]

Thanks for the info GW,

How much solvent would you say you recovered from the discharge side with both the heat exchanger and water trap in the system?

How was the heat exchanger setup? Did they split the Haskel exhaust between the two 25' coils or just run it through one?

How would you compare the recovery speeds you witnessed with the Haskel to other users of the same model extractor who use two TR-21's?

Would you estimate the recovery speed of the Haskel and CMEP-OL to be in the same realm?

From my point of view right now, if the CMEP-OL gets the same safety rating, will appease a fire marshal, and is at least somewhat comparable in recovery times, it will be a much easier pump option to implement and maintain, given that it holds up to the wear and tear we need it to. With the air compressor costs and maintaince that come with a Haskel, a couple OL's could be had at comparable cost. They are also much easier to move and setup. Also, while switching a few more valves and keeping an eye on another set of pressure gauges during extraction wouldn't really be a problem for me, I would rather not add them to the mix unless there is a clear advantage to their presence. What do you think?

The Haskel has very minimal maintenance and is quite easy to service. We are under working this pump so it will last a very long time compared the notoriouy short life spans of Chinese pumps. So far there is no rebuild kit for either the trs or the cmep ol as far as I know.

The compressors are not as difficult or burdensome as people think. Unless your in a residential setting.......

If your concerned about having to switch between the two stages then just run the standard 59025-3

The cmep ol is being over worked, the Haskel under worked. We'll see how long the cmeps last before rebuilds.

 

[HG23]

I appreciate the response Perma, it's very clear where you stand on the issue. I've seen the pics of your shop with the Haskel and it looks great. It seems like pneumatic recovery makes especially good sense when you're running a subcritical CO2 extractor in the same facility. That uses a Haskel as well right?

I have a shop too, but bringing a 3 phase compressor into the hills as part of a mobile lab may throw a monkey wrench into the mix...bringing a little genny to fire up an OL on the other hand is a little easier.

I believe the jury is still out on the reliability of the OL, but aside from a small leak at a gauge connection, they seem to be checking out and owners are giving good reviews. I know the only people who really have them and are sharing are vendors at this point, which is why I'm so happy SPR finally has one in hand.

Since this particular Chinese manufacturer seems to be on our side with the OL, or at least sees the dollar signs, I hope a rebuild kit can be worked out.

If both the Haskel and CMEP-OL get the safety and sanitation thumbs up, and dollar for dollar they recover at about the same rate, it will definitely boil down to reliability.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Thanks for the info GW,

How much solvent would you say you recovered from the discharge side with both the heat exchanger and water trap in the system?

No idea, or way to measure, but we recovered it to -22" Hg. Next time I'll take a refrigerant scale and weigh it.

How was the heat exchanger setup? Did they split the Haskel exhaust between the two 25' coils or just run it through one?

We ran each side of the Haskel through its own 20' coil and then the discharge of the drier through a 50' coil, to achieve temperatures as low as -15C at the triple core heat exchangers final discharge port.

How would you compare the recovery speeds you witnessed with the Haskel to other users of the same model extractor who use two TR-21's?

Not ready to make that comparison yet, because of all the variables, but it is faster that two TR-21's on IC-69's. We currently have it placed in a S. Oregon production facility with Appions, TR-21's, and Pro 6000's for comparison doing actual production extraction 16/7, and will report the results.

Would you estimate the recovery speed of the Haskel and CMEP-OL to be in the same realm?

I'll let you know. With our current Mk VC configuration, a Haskel running single stage, recovers about .36 pounds/min.

From my point of view right now, if the CMEP-OL gets the same safety rating, will appease a fire marshal, and is at least somewhat comparable in recovery times, it will be a much easier pump option to implement and maintain, given that it holds up to the wear and tear we need it to. With the air compressor costs and maintaince that come with a Haskel, a couple OL's could be had at comparable cost. They are also much easier to move and setup. Also, while switching a few more valves and keeping an eye on another set of pressure gauges during extraction wouldn't really be a problem for me, I would rather not add them to the mix unless there is a clear advantage to their presence. What do you think?

I'm pretty much a utility at the margin, bottom line kind of wolf, and if the CMEPOL works well, it would be a clear choice for applications where a 10 Hp compressor is not possible or cost effective.

In contrast, even it it kicks ass from a recovery rate standpoint, it would be extremely hard for a pump of the CMEPOL design, to compete feature for feature with a pneumatic intensifier, except for percent efficiency of the overall system, where it is a clear win.

Even the screw compressor maintenance is relatively low per hour, because of the screw design, vis a vis a reciprocal piston design.

To our advantage, we don't need some of the more indearing features of a pneumatic intensifier in our application, so a good reliable electric pump for us'n home bodies, would be worth its weight in precious metals.

 

[SkyHighLer]

The Mk VB SN-0009, "Mad Shatter" GW's been referring to, in action...

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1706865996207037&set=vb.1557888421104796&type=2&theater

 

[icdog]

Whats the spool in the back for?

 

[Gray Wolf]

The big black one is the heat exchanger. The one beside the recovery tank barrel is the water trap/drier.

 

[queequeg152]

The Mk VB SN-0009, "Mad Shatter" GW's been referring to, in action...

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1706865996207037&set=vb.1557888421104796&type=2&theater

hahaha... its got a catchy almost lyrical sound to it.

this popped into my head instantly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei0l-in--1s&feature=player_detailpage#t=1030