diggity
Active member
yep, Michael Pollan knows. I recommend his book 'In Defense of Food' if you havent checked it out already
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The Organic Think Tank
- Thread starter NiteTiger
- Start date
yep, Michael Pollan knows. I recommend his book 'In Defense of Food' if you havent checked it out already
BORNaSMOKER
Member
excuse me, I didn't read through this entire thread. Organic is not less productive, nor inferior to modern farming methods.. do you even know what you are saying? modern farming methods are incorporated into organic production operations.. please give some examples to prove such outlandish claims that organic is inferior to the alternative.
Wow this is on the verge of propaganda.. they use lots huh? believe me I know first-hand that MANY organic farms do not use ANY pesticides. You are trying to make a point and failing miserably..
No, I wasn't asking you that at all. If you could read and comprehend, you would see I was referring to GMO's..
Wow you are so wrong. You think the natural world wasn't thriving before the industrial revolution? Everything was more sustainable 100 years ago..
Very little of what we do today is 'sustainable'
The word sustainable is so far from how most of live, using it simply IS NOT relative.
Ok I'm done arguing with people who don't have a clue
totally with you dude.... if you think that using bottled salts is better for the world than organics lazyman then all kudos, respect, credit you have as far as I'm concerned is gone.
Let's see you beat a good organic soil grower with your over complicated hydro mess. It may look nice and techy but really what is all that shit. Best plants I ever saw came out of dirt and grew under the sun.
What do you get per watt then?? I'll put hard cash, after looking at your straglers that it isn't over 1g/watt of electric!!!
Hydro fucks with what nature intended, end of. If you can't see this hippy mantra bollocks is actually what this planet needs then you are a total tool in need of extermination. (darwin award imminent)
Anyone who's extreme view is their only right answer is a total tool.
Yea, I am still in the camp that both have different advantages over the other in certain aspects, but in the end it creates an equilibrium where neither method is better than the other, unless it compliments the functional purpose of the user.
That is to say, its functional purpose and value is directly related to the specific person using said method and what he or she wishes to achieve.
Hence the circular arguing.
cannaboy
Member
THE ORIGIONAL QUESTION WAS...................Organics suck! Prove me wrong!
This is a broad spectrum or vews and grow styles..
In there we have indoor/outdoor/suplimentary lighting, and hydroponics/aeroponics/hand fed pots/ in the dirt "GUPPYPONICS" with salt based swagg feed or just water or homade brews, fertilizer salts that are made are week diluted streangth!!!!!! and pollute to get to you then polute the ground watersupply evaporate,,,,,
by using coco rockwool adds miles to the petrol situation and polution..
needless to say that modern farming techniques work better but for example pollytunnels and drippers,,, but for preservation or human life we need to learn about whats good for us.. Humaniterianism is a word is it??? I would love to see a hydro aerotabel panda or other tabel Dwc Drip outdo big trees in pots of dirt and organicmatter in the ground. pound for pound your pissing in the wind and sounding redicolous and losing rep too,
The tecnices are good but the feed is still crap, (they make what is already there like the drug companysand middle man you) LOL, They needed to grow on the moon and in space so umm, we can still use the systems for the good of man.. but stop the cheep ass buying plant food get a life job and help the world!!!
Middlemaned sheep ba ba.. getting sold what you have a rite to the knowledge of how to do it for real.
"I would love too see propper use of cannabis and its wase/by products benefit the enviroment more" The law is BOLLOCKS.
You know what you can make with hemp byproducts?? everything nearly..all the plastic we need for healthy made grow tunnels,, "We never needed Industrializeation just people got scared to loose status!!" Imagion if it was always legal??? How it could have been implimented into daily life, and sociaty,
This is a broad spectrum or vews and grow styles..
In there we have indoor/outdoor/suplimentary lighting, and hydroponics/aeroponics/hand fed pots/ in the dirt "GUPPYPONICS" with salt based swagg feed or just water or homade brews, fertilizer salts that are made are week diluted streangth!!!!!! and pollute to get to you then polute the ground watersupply evaporate,,,,,
by using coco rockwool adds miles to the petrol situation and polution..
needless to say that modern farming techniques work better but for example pollytunnels and drippers,,, but for preservation or human life we need to learn about whats good for us.. Humaniterianism is a word is it??? I would love to see a hydro aerotabel panda or other tabel Dwc Drip outdo big trees in pots of dirt and organicmatter in the ground. pound for pound your pissing in the wind and sounding redicolous and losing rep too,
The tecnices are good but the feed is still crap, (they make what is already there like the drug companysand middle man you) LOL, They needed to grow on the moon and in space so umm, we can still use the systems for the good of man.. but stop the cheep ass buying plant food get a life job and help the world!!!
Middlemaned sheep ba ba.. getting sold what you have a rite to the knowledge of how to do it for real.
"I would love too see propper use of cannabis and its wase/by products benefit the enviroment more" The law is BOLLOCKS.
You know what you can make with hemp byproducts?? everything nearly..all the plastic we need for healthy made grow tunnels,, "We never needed Industrializeation just people got scared to loose status!!" Imagion if it was always legal??? How it could have been implimented into daily life, and sociaty,
this thread actually got me thinking and i think my micro-culture/permaculture will be a sort of "outdoor organic hydro/aqua"
i guess it depends on if i get a fish pond involved
and how fine the line is between mimicking nature and "true hydro"
W
whiterasta
you know, your right about this. I keep forgetting because all I keep reading about is soil.. my bad. Organic hydro.. Organic hydro.. Organic hydro.. Hopefully, I will now remember that this thread is in the organic hydro subforum. 90% of the posters feed my ego and I make no sense? I apologize for not staying on topic. It's pretty tough when the subject has changed to ACT vs hydro. If I had anything to do about it, I apologize. maybe the only advocates I have are the ones who can think outside the bun. was the original question about organics vs hydro? or was it organic hydro vs hydro? I don't even remember anymore.. I'm just defending salt based hydro based on what the initial debate was about. The mudslinging began when soil entered the conversation.. If I had anything to do with that, it was out of my mis understanding altogether. may I plead ignorance?
MMM...er,uh DITTO
Apologies, musta had some dirt in my eye
WR
Organics don't yield better and don't taste better. That's like saying hydro vs soil results in more yield or a better taste. It's not proven and it doesn't make much sense. Yield and taste are both the result of mainly genetics, and partly the skill of the grower.
That being said, organics IMO do have the obvious benefits of being soft on the environment, probably costing less, and being less maintenance than some other setups (no pH regulation etc.)
Of course I'm mainly talking about soil vs soilless medium. As for organic vs non-organic soil grows? no real benefit except the fact that you can say you've grown it organically (which translates to "grown in horse/cow shit") and I'm not downplaying this by any means. "Organic" and "green" are BIG marketing keywords.
That being said, organics IMO do have the obvious benefits of being soft on the environment, probably costing less, and being less maintenance than some other setups (no pH regulation etc.)
Of course I'm mainly talking about soil vs soilless medium. As for organic vs non-organic soil grows? no real benefit except the fact that you can say you've grown it organically (which translates to "grown in horse/cow shit") and I'm not downplaying this by any means. "Organic" and "green" are BIG marketing keywords.
excuse me, I didn't read through this entire thread. Organic is not less productive, nor inferior to modern farming methods.. do you even know what you are saying? modern farming methods are incorporated into organic production operations.. please give some examples to prove such outlandish claims that organic is inferior to the alternative.
Wow this is on the verge of propaganda.. they use lots huh? believe me I know first-hand that MANY organic farms do not use ANY pesticides. You are trying to make a point and failing miserably..
No, I wasn't asking you that at all. If you could read and comprehend, you would see I was referring to GMO's..
Wow you are so wrong. You think the natural world wasn't thriving before the industrial revolution? Everything was more sustainable 100 years ago..
Very little of what we do today is 'sustainable'
The word sustainable is so far from how most of live, using it simply IS NOT relative.
Ok I'm done arguing with people who don't have a clue
You can't be bothered to read this whole thread, and I'm the clueless one? Your arrogance is only outshined by your ignorance. People far smarter than you or I have proven this to be true, and I've mentioned it (with links) several times in this very thread.
By the way, do you believe the world has the exact same population it did 2000 years ago? If so you probably still believe the world is flat, but I'll give you the short version, from Nobel prize-winning chemist Norman Borlaug:
The earth can only support 4B people if everyone farmed organically. Since we are already at 6 billion, which 2 billion people would YOU starve to death?
Read the rest of the thread for more information you'll simply ignore.
EatMoGrass
Member
Knowing how to garden organically could be very useful if you find yourself one of those few survivors after this whole 2012 deal.
norm borlaug a microbiologist for dupont who went on to work for the military said something 50 yrs ago relevant to the current state of affairs at the time only remotely (as he was a ballswinger for dupont) that isnt even remotely relevant today (w/ improvements in every method and drawbacks to a "certain method" becoming apparent)
cannaboy
Member
There is less production into natural organic farming and new era hydro organic approach,,,
Organics is misportrayed by the media barons and SCUM!! Modern organic farming methods like partial rootzone drying ect have been the way for most for years and the natural methods can't be ignored!!! The new and old ways need to work homogeniously without distruction..
Because organics doesn't make the £$£ required for the law makers to teach it anymore.. Is bollocks..
You can't be bothered to read this whole thread, and I'm the clueless one? Your arrogance is only outshined by your ignorance. People far smarter than you or I have proven this to be true, and I've mentioned it (with links) several times in this very thread.
He was being sarcastic lazy!!
The earth can only support 4B people if everyone farmed organically. Since we are already at 6 billion, which 2 billion people would YOU starve to death?
Mabe the people waiting life on death row screned for fixed trials ect. and some stragglers?? And organic hydro the parts of the world in starved deprived and natural disaster zones??
If we don't go back to the way things used to be done we will end up in generations to come with children being told to sow GM seeds into rockwool and distroy and pollute further and then have them have to pay them to grow dope to clean the earth!!! Teach your children well grow in dirt and feed cows on grass we don't need people thinking that cows are mutant ninja milk aliens with holes to feed them through and that we just discovered them in space and brought them back from there native plannet where somebody discovered/visited at $10000,0000,000 a trip. "On dope fuel",,,discovered bullshit, telling them put a industrialised manufactured grass strain (E1$£75B) into its testube and you suck the milk out its NOZZELS with this SUCTION TEET a few hours later,, ("What a joke") you cant breed them and the are only malifirous for a month then you get a new 1 of us at a discounted $5000,000 2nd time byer rate and then go go buy a new delicasy called 87235627 that just on the market to eat in pill form (Its all the rave apparently like hydro and chemicals) and its your cow as food.. refined into a ££ moneymaking marketed product now owend patented and sold no longer free or in nature. All E numbers are there design so the avarage joe gets old and dies before you can work out what natural resorce he is paying through the nose for thats in his back yard.. patenting a gene or flavours/terpines taking out the strawberry and giving a it CHEMICLE DEREVITIVE, take out the good we need in a natural product (CORN) sell it high say its running out and keep the supply so we need twice as much as we did so they can justify this mass globalization distruction of our natural food and habitats for profit and gain... I can't belive CAPTIN PLANNET ISN'T GONNA ARREST THE TOSSERS!!!!
"Captain planet he's our hero gonna take pollution down to zero" It was a catchy tune ... Did they ban this cartoon did any 1 notice it was bad ass and a good cartoon for kids better than tom and jerry in a way,,,Nowerdays your kids watch properganda and media lead sheep bollocks designed to make them thick and you feed them stuff that is bad for them and Shit I best have a spliff and rant some more..
All designed to take away your knowledge and ability to be self sustainable we live amongst locusts of the highest pedigree they know oil is about gone and hemp is the future but they need to controll us through food and the environent and the terror act is here to stop things positive dead!!
Organics is misportrayed by the media barons and SCUM!! Modern organic farming methods like partial rootzone drying ect have been the way for most for years and the natural methods can't be ignored!!! The new and old ways need to work homogeniously without distruction..
Because organics doesn't make the £$£ required for the law makers to teach it anymore.. Is bollocks..
You can't be bothered to read this whole thread, and I'm the clueless one? Your arrogance is only outshined by your ignorance. People far smarter than you or I have proven this to be true, and I've mentioned it (with links) several times in this very thread.
He was being sarcastic lazy!!
The earth can only support 4B people if everyone farmed organically. Since we are already at 6 billion, which 2 billion people would YOU starve to death?
Mabe the people waiting life on death row screned for fixed trials ect. and some stragglers?? And organic hydro the parts of the world in starved deprived and natural disaster zones??
If we don't go back to the way things used to be done we will end up in generations to come with children being told to sow GM seeds into rockwool and distroy and pollute further and then have them have to pay them to grow dope to clean the earth!!! Teach your children well grow in dirt and feed cows on grass we don't need people thinking that cows are mutant ninja milk aliens with holes to feed them through and that we just discovered them in space and brought them back from there native plannet where somebody discovered/visited at $10000,0000,000 a trip. "On dope fuel",,,discovered bullshit, telling them put a industrialised manufactured grass strain (E1$£75B) into its testube and you suck the milk out its NOZZELS with this SUCTION TEET a few hours later,, ("What a joke") you cant breed them and the are only malifirous for a month then you get a new 1 of us at a discounted $5000,000 2nd time byer rate and then go go buy a new delicasy called 87235627 that just on the market to eat in pill form (Its all the rave apparently like hydro and chemicals) and its your cow as food.. refined into a ££ moneymaking marketed product now owend patented and sold no longer free or in nature. All E numbers are there design so the avarage joe gets old and dies before you can work out what natural resorce he is paying through the nose for thats in his back yard.. patenting a gene or flavours/terpines taking out the strawberry and giving a it CHEMICLE DEREVITIVE, take out the good we need in a natural product (CORN) sell it high say its running out and keep the supply so we need twice as much as we did so they can justify this mass globalization distruction of our natural food and habitats for profit and gain... I can't belive CAPTIN PLANNET ISN'T GONNA ARREST THE TOSSERS!!!!
"Captain planet he's our hero gonna take pollution down to zero" It was a catchy tune ... Did they ban this cartoon did any 1 notice it was bad ass and a good cartoon for kids better than tom and jerry in a way,,,Nowerdays your kids watch properganda and media lead sheep bollocks designed to make them thick and you feed them stuff that is bad for them and Shit I best have a spliff and rant some more..
All designed to take away your knowledge and ability to be self sustainable we live amongst locusts of the highest pedigree they know oil is about gone and hemp is the future but they need to controll us through food and the environent and the terror act is here to stop things positive dead!!
Borloaugs point was that the poor nations of the world cannot afford the additional expense or lower yields organic farming produces per acre, so for food crops yes organic produces less.
For weed, indoors in short cycle crops, MOST people find their yield is slightly diminished, so yes organic produces less this way. Does it taste better? Jury still sounds like it's out, but most say yes.
For weed outdoors under the sun, organics are more practical, cheaper and simpler to apply than salt ferts, but does this mean they yield higher than an outdoor hydro grow? Who knows, but I kinda doubt it. For those that have done outdoor hydro nutes please speak up.
I don't see how this thread is continuing on, the points have been made, debated, proven or refuted.
For weed, indoors in short cycle crops, MOST people find their yield is slightly diminished, so yes organic produces less this way. Does it taste better? Jury still sounds like it's out, but most say yes.
For weed outdoors under the sun, organics are more practical, cheaper and simpler to apply than salt ferts, but does this mean they yield higher than an outdoor hydro grow? Who knows, but I kinda doubt it. For those that have done outdoor hydro nutes please speak up.
I don't see how this thread is continuing on, the points have been made, debated, proven or refuted.
In terms of agriculture, you cannot feed today's population with organic production methods and no mineral fertilizers and synthetic pesticides. It's just not possible. Most farming in the developing world is organic by default and by using 'conventional' fertility and pest management since 'green revolution', farmers in poor countries have been able to improve their yields significantly. Organic produce can never be anything other than a boutique item for people with enough money, unless 3/4 of the world's population suddenly drops dead. The problem is that more organic produce leads to higher food prices as more and more acreage is being farmed using less productive methods.
I think it's great to make use of a lot of the methods of organic growing, like high organic matter, IPM, cover crops and nutrient cycling, whether you're growing marijuana or cabbages in the field. In terms of growing in closets, I personally prefer using mineral fertilizer because it's more straightforward and predictable. Bone and blood meal or assorted varieties of poop (call it manure, guano or castings...it's all shit) are a pain in the ass when it comes to indoor cultivation, imho...
This has been said before, but it bears repeating....nothing is stopping you from using a little bit of both. I add worm castings to my coco but feed my plants with mineral nutrient solution. You really can have the best of both worlds and I think a lot of us strive for that.
I think it's great to make use of a lot of the methods of organic growing, like high organic matter, IPM, cover crops and nutrient cycling, whether you're growing marijuana or cabbages in the field. In terms of growing in closets, I personally prefer using mineral fertilizer because it's more straightforward and predictable. Bone and blood meal or assorted varieties of poop (call it manure, guano or castings...it's all shit) are a pain in the ass when it comes to indoor cultivation, imho...
This has been said before, but it bears repeating....nothing is stopping you from using a little bit of both. I add worm castings to my coco but feed my plants with mineral nutrient solution. You really can have the best of both worlds and I think a lot of us strive for that.
From http://www.livinglettuce.com/debate.htm
There is a huge debate about the value of "organic" fertilizers and methods. Currently accepted organic fertilizer components are dependent upon organisms in the soil to convert the "organic" materials into a useable form for plants.
At Living Lettuce Farms, we provide the minerals required for plant growth directly, completely eliminating the need for soil and soil-organisms.
The result is much higher growth rates, yields and even crop quality than organic methods can achieve. This is not what some people want to hear, but it is the simple scientific truth - and practically all scientists and educators in the fields of agriculture and chemistry know it and will be the first to agree. In fact, the kinds of materials that are permitted for use under "organic" regulations are not of sufficient purity to be used for hydroponic culture.
There is a huge debate about the value of "organic" fertilizers and methods. Currently accepted organic fertilizer components are dependent upon organisms in the soil to convert the "organic" materials into a useable form for plants.
At Living Lettuce Farms, we provide the minerals required for plant growth directly, completely eliminating the need for soil and soil-organisms.
The result is much higher growth rates, yields and even crop quality than organic methods can achieve. This is not what some people want to hear, but it is the simple scientific truth - and practically all scientists and educators in the fields of agriculture and chemistry know it and will be the first to agree. In fact, the kinds of materials that are permitted for use under "organic" regulations are not of sufficient purity to be used for hydroponic culture.
From http://www.simplyhydro.com/f_a_q.htm#hydroponics_is_bad_for_the_environment
Myth: Hydroponics produces huge super-plants
This myth has some foundation in truth but there is an important aspect to consider. Every seed, like all living things, already has a genetic code that will determine its general size, yield potential and flavor. Hydroponics can't turn a cherry tomato into a beefsteak tomato but it can turn it into the best cherry tomato it can be. Therefore, start with the best genetics possible.
Getting a plant to grow to its highest potential in common soil is difficult because of the hundreds of variables in the soil's make-up which influence the plant and its growth. It is the ability to control these variables that makes hydroponics superior to conventional gardening. In addition, factor that a plant in soil expends a great portion of energy working for its food in a way that hydro plants do not. The diva existence of a hydroponic plant allows it to send that extra energy into faster growth, dense vegetation, larger yields and more flavorful produce.
Dr. Howard M. Resh, in his book HYDROPONIC FOOD PRODUCTION, cites vegetable yield increases that are dramatic; identical cucumber plants produced 7,000 pounds per acre in soil but 28,000 pounds per acre when grown hydroponically and tomato yields that ranged from 5 to 10 tons per acre in soil but 60 to 300 tons per hydroponic acre. The reported results are typical for practically any plant. Said another way, to produce the total number of tomatoes consumed annually in Canada (400 million pounds) requires 25,000 acres of soil. Hydroponically, it would require only 1,300 acres.
Shall I post a few hundred more of these articles?
Myth: Hydroponics produces huge super-plants
This myth has some foundation in truth but there is an important aspect to consider. Every seed, like all living things, already has a genetic code that will determine its general size, yield potential and flavor. Hydroponics can't turn a cherry tomato into a beefsteak tomato but it can turn it into the best cherry tomato it can be. Therefore, start with the best genetics possible.
Getting a plant to grow to its highest potential in common soil is difficult because of the hundreds of variables in the soil's make-up which influence the plant and its growth. It is the ability to control these variables that makes hydroponics superior to conventional gardening. In addition, factor that a plant in soil expends a great portion of energy working for its food in a way that hydro plants do not. The diva existence of a hydroponic plant allows it to send that extra energy into faster growth, dense vegetation, larger yields and more flavorful produce.
Dr. Howard M. Resh, in his book HYDROPONIC FOOD PRODUCTION, cites vegetable yield increases that are dramatic; identical cucumber plants produced 7,000 pounds per acre in soil but 28,000 pounds per acre when grown hydroponically and tomato yields that ranged from 5 to 10 tons per acre in soil but 60 to 300 tons per hydroponic acre. The reported results are typical for practically any plant. Said another way, to produce the total number of tomatoes consumed annually in Canada (400 million pounds) requires 25,000 acres of soil. Hydroponically, it would require only 1,300 acres.
Shall I post a few hundred more of these articles?
Another fun tidbit, taken from: http://www.simplyhydro.com/harvesting__profits.htm
The two obstacles I most often encounter are the fact that my produce is not labeled "organic" and that hydroponics is not traditionally known to be of excellent quality. The latter is easy to overcome once the buyer has tasted my produce, but the former is handled with a little more delicacy. One argument is of course that we use no pesticide, no herbicide and no chemical pest control. Then I present a study on a tissue analysis that has been made on our peppers. It shows that, not only do they contain more vitamins than soil grown peppers, but they contain not even a trace of heavy metals which are harmful to human consumption. I think this is due to the excellent quality of nutrients and the water-culture system that we use. In this manner, I have been able to sell our produce to even the organic grocers in our area. I give them a sign with our logo and a text describing our produce to hang on their shelves. Their clients have proven to accept our produce since they have been selling more basil than ever before!
The two obstacles I most often encounter are the fact that my produce is not labeled "organic" and that hydroponics is not traditionally known to be of excellent quality. The latter is easy to overcome once the buyer has tasted my produce, but the former is handled with a little more delicacy. One argument is of course that we use no pesticide, no herbicide and no chemical pest control. Then I present a study on a tissue analysis that has been made on our peppers. It shows that, not only do they contain more vitamins than soil grown peppers, but they contain not even a trace of heavy metals which are harmful to human consumption. I think this is due to the excellent quality of nutrients and the water-culture system that we use. In this manner, I have been able to sell our produce to even the organic grocers in our area. I give them a sign with our logo and a text describing our produce to hang on their shelves. Their clients have proven to accept our produce since they have been selling more basil than ever before!
Are we having fun yet? http://thehydroponicshop.com/hydroponic-gardening/how-to-grow-and-nurture-hydroponic-strawberries
Throughout the world, farmers are taking up hydroponics in a big way. It has been proved that this method of production is high yielding and eco friendly. Farmers have found hydroponic strawberries to be a very convenient and high quality substitute.
Other than this, there are other benefits of growing hydroponic strawberries. Some of them are as follows:
1. Excellent taste- These strawberries taste great. You’ll never have enough of them.
2. High picking rate- They grow at a great altitude so the while the picking rate grows, it's simple and less laborious to cultivate.
3. High yields per plant- If you take into account the yield per plant given by hydroponic strawberries, you will see that these plants are far more productive than the ones grown in soil. Any kind of soil can be used since there is no pest or weed trouble.
4. Space utilization- Also, they can be grown in stacks so that the air space is used. In this way, you can make the garden reach great heights. This can be done as water can reach high levels.
5. No seasonal cultivation- These strawberries are not dependent on seasons. So you may grow them at any point of time.
Throughout the world, farmers are taking up hydroponics in a big way. It has been proved that this method of production is high yielding and eco friendly. Farmers have found hydroponic strawberries to be a very convenient and high quality substitute.
Other than this, there are other benefits of growing hydroponic strawberries. Some of them are as follows:
1. Excellent taste- These strawberries taste great. You’ll never have enough of them.
2. High picking rate- They grow at a great altitude so the while the picking rate grows, it's simple and less laborious to cultivate.
3. High yields per plant- If you take into account the yield per plant given by hydroponic strawberries, you will see that these plants are far more productive than the ones grown in soil. Any kind of soil can be used since there is no pest or weed trouble.
4. Space utilization- Also, they can be grown in stacks so that the air space is used. In this way, you can make the garden reach great heights. This can be done as water can reach high levels.
5. No seasonal cultivation- These strawberries are not dependent on seasons. So you may grow them at any point of time.
