The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread

[growingcrazy]

I wanted to put this after thought here instead of in the last post.


Your goal with nutrition is to first find the correct ratio of elements each specific plant likes and then only after that can you push the EC up to chase more yield, terps etc.


Within commercial production, pushing proper nutrition creates higher yields and higher quality. We usually don't associate quality product with high nutrient use, but that goes out the window once the right profile is run for each environment. Fertilizer input costs and out of balance nutrition dictate the low quality of most products.

 

[growingcrazy]

I honestly don’t keep “headstash”. Good enough for a customer, good enough for me


From there you collect enough tissue data some timing becomes apparent. You drop k and continue with ca

That helps a lot

Are you referring to bring Ca back up at the end of flower? If so, when do you start and are using gypsum to move the K or another Ca source?

 

[growingcrazy]

What I made with the list you provided plus Ksil. That is 1 gallon ready to use. Multiply to make your concentrates if desired.

 

[jidoka]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lvIO3Ht_9BQ

So Ream’s vegetative vs flower stuff explained without talking about the energy of electron spin. Also without giving him credit...but that speaks to the presenter.

But with info about element synergies with hormones

And no, I don’t have peer reviewed citations. Only me own little n=1 experiments. So proof no. Try it or not, up to you

 

[bsgospel]

Good listen. I'll give you some citations (sort of)

UC Berkeley has been doing a lot of work on auxins specifically over the last ten years. This paper echoes what Kempf is talking about here: https://www.pnas.org/content/114/36/E7641

Another paper I can't find at the moment but will dig up tonight is a demonstration of how auxins, NOT as a whole, are redistributed when say topping/branching/higher cell division occurs; but the main engine that drives more reproductive and shoot advancement is almost entirely glucose. A redistribution of sugars is what must first occur for RNA to signal periclinal and anticlinal division.

 

[ledo]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lvIO3Ht_9BQ

So Ream’s vegetative vs flower stuff explained without talking about the energy of electron spin. Also without giving him credit...but that speaks to the presenter.

But with info about element synergies with hormones

And no, I don’t have peer reviewed citations. Only me own little n=1 experiments. So proof no. Try it or not, up to you

proof for yourself though and that's what counts....

I'm still perplexed that you never smoke properly cured cannabis. Nothing ever aged 3 months+, a year or two perhaps? Nothing ever fermented either? You're a great grower and able to scale well but seems you may be missing out a little too.....

 

[ledo]

I wanted to put this after thought here instead of in the last post.


Your goal with nutrition is to first find the correct ratio of elements each specific plant likes and then only after that can you push the EC up to chase more yield, terps etc.


Within commercial production, pushing proper nutrition creates higher yields and higher quality. We usually don't associate quality product with high nutrient use, but that goes out the window once the right profile is run for each environment. Fertilizer input costs and out of balance nutrition dictate the low quality of most products.

I never understood why people thought / think that quality needs to mean light, smaller, or that organic should equate a smaller size.

Vigorous, healthy plants just kill it across the board, all plant species, quality and quantity should be directly in step.

This isn't pumping with K but balancing with it, I'm always too light on K and Mg, something I need to work on.

 

[Lightweight]

proof for yourself though and that's what counts....

I'm still perplexed that you never smoke properly cured cannabis. Nothing ever aged 3 months+, a year or two perhaps? Nothing ever fermented either? You're a great grower and able to scale well but seems you may be missing out a little too.....

It could just be different strokes for different folks. Some strains I prefer fresh and others I like better cured. It's entirely dependent on the variety for me. My best and most steady customer prefers flowers as fresh as I can get them to him. He's had plenty of cured stuff, he just prefers fresh. I know some other growers who feel the same way too. They like fresh better for the most part.

@jidoka, thanks for mentioning excess plant sugars based on too much potassium. I have historically just amended my soil at planting (field soil at 85% Ca, 10% Mg, 4% K, 0.5% Na as of the past year and a half-ish) and let them go finish off of that. Quality has been good and yield has been good too (at least I think it's pretty good) and my flowers don't need much of a cure to smoke smoothly and I'm guessing it's because I never push potassium. I didn't know why people get black ash and harsh smoke without a longer cure, but it makes sense to me that too much potassium can produce harsher smoke.

 

[jidoka]

I have never been the guy to ask about taste. I ain’t ever gonna say hint of this, touch of that. Just the way it goes

Hell, I like PBR

 

[Badfishy1]

I have never been the guy to ask about taste. I ain’t ever gonna say hint of this, touch of that. Just the way it goes

Hell, I like PBR

PBR ftw ALWAYS

 

[GSWCali]

I am not the resident coco loco here, that would be Jidoka.

In saying that, yes I have run a lot of coco in the past. Initially on chems and then organics before going to a coco/soilless medium and then on to soil/soilless.

N100 - P100 - K120 - Ca110 - Mg50 - S60

Fe3 - Zn1.2 - Mn - 2 - Cu.6 - B.45 - Mo.15

That is where I would start and then increase the concentration until you see your desired amount of N in the plants. Getting additional P and Ca into fertilizer mixes with salts without throwing anything else off is the difficult part.

Do a source water test, adjust the mix as needed and then send a sample to a lab, then make adjustments from that. I really like using higher pH water so Pacid can be used to drop the pH and bring the P up to desired levels. As long as no elements are way off in that water, of course.

Wash the coco until you get the same ppm/ec in and out. Remove as much moisture as you can and then charge it with your nutrient mix. Add plants, drip to waste and adjust the K ratio in the mix up if you see a K deficiency but are happy with N. If you see the K def. and think more N can be used, increase the whole recipe. Work up to 4-5 feeds a day in the final container before flowering.

I can make a mix in hydrobuddy if you would like. It just may take a little time.

Growingcrazy, thank you for assistance.

I never got a test of my water before so I'm looking forward to that. Just made the call today and should have that completed within a week. My water usually is around 40 ppm and now it will be good to finally know what exactly that 40 is composed of.

You know, I really appreciate this thread and the ideas that are being discussed throughout. I'm being shed to a different light of ideas and topics that I'm learning about but also making me think about certain things in a different way. It's exciting haha.

I've been digesting what you told me and I thought of some more questions if you don't mind me asking.

I understand a little more about CEC and the unit mEq and how that relates to a medium. Going to your post about nutrition, would the first step to create a balanced ratio of elements within the medium would be to find the CEC value and then balance the ratios from there? How would one find that value with coco coir? Should I contact the manufacturer of the brand and maybe they would have that info? From a quick google search some sources state that the average coco is 70-100mEq/100g of medium. What if I cut the medium with lets say 25% perlite, would I then just subtract 25% from the CEC value to find the final value? I really want to learn more about CEC and apply that to the coco coir medium.

My next question revolves around knowing when to push or reduce a certain element during a stage of growth. I'm wondering if you could point me to the right direction on where I could learn about this practice.

Thank you for the HydroBuddy recipe. Once I get my water test back I'm going to play around with the recipe and try it out. Time to do some more reading and note taking!

 

[bsgospel]

Sugar demand, not auxin, is the initial regulator of apical dominance

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4000805/

Turns out that's a repost from 2014. Someone had already found it and OO/others had already commented upon it. May still have some relevance as a bump here.

 

[jidoka]

Thanks bs.



Triangle Kush x SFV by Cannarado

 

[bsgospel]

Oooowheee. that's the stuff!

 

[moose eater]

I received my most recent lab analyses back; the Mehlich III acid-extraction S001, as well as the water-extraction S003.

I'm mildly befuddled, and even questioned if this was actually MY sample's results, as I'd boosted the calcium and P and reduced dolomite lime. Got rid of the prilled molasses and thus -some- of the related excess K, yet the Potassium, while reduced is still fairly stout, and the P didn't budge high enough in contrast to the N & K.

The numbers are as follows; typed in translation, rather than made into a jpeg or pdf, for ease of conveyance to the forum from my somewhat crippled internet connection:

In the S001 Mehlich III acid extraction analysis:

Ph is 6.4 (*precisely what I was -originally- aiming for; now planning on moving more toward a 6.6-6.7).

Calcium base saturation % is 67.67

Magnesium base saturation % is 11.42%

Potassium base saturation % is 2.9%

Sodium base saturation % is 4%.

Other bases are 5%

Hydrogen is 9%.
--------------------------------------------------
Total exchange capacity is listed as 24.81 (ME/100 g).
--------------------------------------------------
Organic matter % is 37.2

Soluble sulfur is at 559 ppm.

Phosphorous is at 173 ppm.

Calcium = 3,358 ppm

Magnesium = 340 ppm

Potassium = 281 ppm

Sodium = 228 ppm

Boron = 2.53 ppm

Iron = 138 ppm

Manganese = 35 ppm

Copper = 5.07 ppm

Zinc = 38.8 ppm

Aluminum = 128 ppm

---------------------------------------------------

Other tests:

Soluble salts (mmhos/cm) = 1.81

NO3-N = 125.2 ppm

NH4-N = 4 ppm

--------------------------------------------------------

Initial thoughts for modification include getting rid of the 1 TBSP of Azomite altogether.

Reduce dolomite lime by yet another TBSP, and increase the low Mg garden lime by 2 TBSP, plus bump the gypsum up by another 5 TBSP.

Add another 1/2-cup to a cup of (8-16 TBSP) of 0-7-0 Bat Guano.
-----------------------------------------------------------

The water extraction test shows a VERY low available P, at something like 1.9 ppm, telling me this mix needs to sit and activate for a MUCH longer period of time than it received before being sent to the lab.

It also tells me (maybe) that by contrasting the Mehlich results to the water extraction results, I can figure out what items to boost via liquid or other faster acting fertilizers for any prematurely-applied mixes while the slower-to-release components are 'awakening.'

(*Because I need to come up with about 5-6 cubic ft. of this mix right now, to be used in the next several days, and will need to compensate for the present but unavailable components in the here and now).

Any comments on nutrient or mineral levels are welcome. Please.

And do the sulfur or Mg levels strike anyone else as a bit alarming? Maybe I'm worrying over insignificant issues?

I currently have some flowering (aged, former) mothers in this mix, as well as properly rooted vegetative plants prepping to go into bloom, and they all seem more or less happy; not ecstatic, but fairly comfy. Knowing what I do now about the P levels, however, I'm contemplating doing a foliar spray with amino acids, and either a fish hydrolysate product (2-3-0.2) I have here, or a hefty dose of Budswell (yellow label).

Meanwhile, a top-dressing of some 0-11-0 seabird guano is likely in the very near future.

Ideas?


Edit: And as Murphy would have it, the high P (0.5-13-0.2) Indonesian Bat shit I'd been using is seemingly no longer available in town. I swear Murphy follolws me just to formulate new challenges for me to overcome. I dislike Murphy a lot these days....).





.

 

[jidoka]

Indo/GH/Outdo? What size pots? Is organic a concern?

 

[moose eater]

Primarily organic. Natural at least, and organic as much as possible.

Indoor, 315 cmh's, @ 1 per box, (not yet with auxiliary lighting, but hopefully augmented soon with PAR/BR 30-38 12-15 watt LED floods = 120 watt each +/- incandescent with 3000k - 4200k spectrum x 4 per box; again, hopefully soon, to augment the 315s). Vegging under 4200k and bloom under 3000k after initial 10-12 days under 12:12.

Plenty of air changes (each box with ~345 cfm's/box before adjustment for pressures), in (3) 4'x4'x6.5' boxes, and (1) 3.5'x3.5'x6.5', with the room in question cranking a steady pleated MERV8 & Industrial VOC-grade carbon-filtered ~465 cfm's thru 12"x24" custom, aluminum-framed panels @ 100% fill, in an overall ~14'x20' room. (*Yes, I know there's no such thing as a true 100% fill, but..... ).

Most bloom pots being Classic 2000 (Maybe 4-5 gallon? Maybe bigger? Never did a specific look-up on them; the biggest I have in any quantity. Veg pots go from the 1" sq. for cuts, then begin as 3"x3" cubes, and then go to 5"x5"x6.5" square, then into the Classic 2000s for bloom.

Thanks.

 

[moose eater]

I can post the -current- (amended) mix in a bit, but have to head into town to locate a couple items I'm missing or low on at the moment.

 

[Badfishy1]

ME, just wanted to say thanks for sharing. Real examples being dealt with help a lot!

 

[jackspratt61]

I received my most recent lab analyses back; the Mehlich III acid-extraction S001, as well as the water-extraction S003.

I'm mildly befuddled, and even questioned if this was actually MY sample's results, as I'd boosted the calcium and P and reduced dolomite lime. Got rid of the prilled molasses and thus -some- of the related excess K, yet the Potassium, while reduced is still fairly stout, and the P didn't budge high enough in contrast to the N & K.

The numbers are as follows; typed in translation, rather than made into a jpeg or pdf, for ease of conveyance to the forum from my somewhat crippled internet connection:

In the S001 Mehlich III acid extraction analysis:

Ph is 6.4 (*precisely what I was -originally- aiming for; now planning on moving more toward a 6.6-6.7).

Calcium base saturation % is 67.67

Magnesium base saturation % is 11.42%

Potassium base saturation % is 2.9%

Sodium base saturation % is 4%.

Other bases are 5%

Hydrogen is 9%.
--------------------------------------------------
Total exchange capacity is listed as 24.81 (ME/100 g).
--------------------------------------------------
Organic matter % is 37.2

Soluble sulfur is at 559 ppm.

Phosphorous is at 173 ppm.

Calcium = 3,358 ppm

Magnesium = 340 ppm

Potassium = 281 ppm

Sodium = 228 ppm

Boron = 2.53 ppm

Iron = 138 ppm

Manganese = 35 ppm

Copper = 5.07 ppm

Zinc = 38.8 ppm

Aluminum = 128 ppm

---------------------------------------------------

Other tests:

Soluble salts (mmhos/cm) = 1.81

NO3-N = 125.2 ppm

NH4-N = 4 ppm

--------------------------------------------------------

Initial thoughts for modification include getting rid of the 1 TBSP of Azomite altogether.

Reduce dolomite lime by yet another TBSP, and increase the low Mg garden lime by 2 TBSP, plus bump the gypsum up by another 5 TBSP.

Add another 1/2-cup to a cup of (8-16 TBSP) of 0-7-0 Bat Guano.
-----------------------------------------------------------

The water extraction test shows a VERY low available P, at something like 1.9 ppm, telling me this mix needs to sit and activate for a MUCH longer period of time than it received before being sent to the lab.

It also tells me (maybe) that by contrasting the Mehlich results to the water extraction results, I can figure out what items to boost via liquid or other faster acting fertilizers for any prematurely-applied mixes while the slower-to-release components are 'awakening.'

(*Because I need to come up with about 5-6 cubic ft. of this mix right now, to be used in the next several days, and will need to compensate for the present but unavailable components in the here and now).

Any comments on nutrient or mineral levels are welcome. Please.

And do the sulfur or Mg levels strike anyone else as a bit alarming? Maybe I'm worrying over insignificant issues?

I currently have some flowering (aged, former) mothers in this mix, as well as properly rooted vegetative plants prepping to go into bloom, and they all seem more or less happy; not ecstatic, but fairly comfy. Knowing what I do now about the P levels, however, I'm contemplating doing a foliar spray with amino acids, and either a fish hydrolysate product (2-3-0.2) I have here, or a hefty dose of Budswell (yellow label).

Meanwhile, a top-dressing of some 0-11-0 seabird guano is likely in the very near future.

Ideas?


Edit: And as Murphy would have it, the high P (0.5-13-0.2) Indonesian Bat shit I'd been using is seemingly no longer available in town. I swear Murphy follolws me just to formulate new challenges for me to overcome. I dislike Murphy a lot these days....).





.

Rinse that mix to .5 ec or so...sodium is high and N too. It needs additional P and Ca. Perhaps use triple super phosphate and steamed bone meal. Avoid ammendments with sodium and iron. Retest and balance metals.