The growing large plants, outdoors, thread...

[milkyjoe]

on the other hand

on the other hand

So I am looking at a mix that is 40% peat and compost and 20% lava rock. Tested with no amendments:

tcec...29.2
pH.....7.0
organic matter...30.91
sulfur...167 ppm
P2O5...1183 ppm (a life time supply, no evil soft rock for me)
base cation saturations:
Ca...62.19% (678 lbs per acre short)
Mg...13.96
K...15.84 (this is an issue, 4 x the ppm I would ideally like to see)
Na...3.6 (I got something for this, spectrum extra to the rescue, but more K, doh)
H...0
micros
B...1.05
Fe...162
Mn...20
Cu...1.62
Zn...13.32
Al....41

So I need some gypsum (the Ca will drive the Mg off the cec sites and pH will go down/H will go up...or I could use a little AS if I need N). I need a fair amount of Mn and a little B and Cu.

Definitely foliar Zn and Mn.

But overall not bad and 30% organic matter to buffer...hell yea. Gonna be a great year.

 

[Rising Moon]

What kind of compost is that?

 

[Cep]

Milky those are pretty good numbers. I've seen several samples where H was at 0, and the pH was around 7.4. Thats the highest P level I've seen yet though. Excessive K levels are discussed a little in the high brix thread. I think it might have been Reams that talks about high K levels restricting maximum brix in plants, can't remember. I know my dad's veg garden has K% around 9-10 and his plants are very healthy. Right now my plot has K levels around 4-5% and the mix I'm thinking about incorporating has a 17% reading. I'm worried less about that than I was early last year when I saw how much K they pulled when they went into flower (3-4% depleted in 2 months)!

 

[milkyjoe]

I talked with AEA last night and they were horrified by those K levels. They say the plants will grow well, look nice but that I will never get enough Ca into the cell walls leading to stretchy, weak plants. I will also end up taking in too much NO3 compared to NH4 leading to the problems associated with that...so fast, green growth, but not as much bud set and health issues.

Remember this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39t4tdc_ldg&hd=1. The K and Na will antagonize uptake of Ca, Mg and NH4. They are much more comfortable with not enough K in the soil as a plant deficiency is easy to see (bottom leaves yellowing around the edges) and fix with foliar...that makes sure you uptake enough Ca and Mg. The guys that do the sap testing say K and NO3 excesses are the two biggest problems they see worldwide.

So fuck me runnin backwards...I still don't know shit.

 

[Cep]

I see. Are you going to find a different mix or add a bulk amendment, then add more Ca/Mg sources? I know Tainio would recommend K levels be at the upper range of Albrecht ratios. This is what was in my native soil (5-6%). At the end of bloom a handful, maybe 5 plants, showed K deficiency.

High Potassium levels seem to be found in most of the mixes, probably all just using too much compost. Thanks for sharing, going back to the drawing board as well.

 

[Backyard Farmer]

There's gotta be an easier way to tie up the k and not lose the organic matter % you get from ramping up on quality compost in your mix.

I bet you're on to something using a little AS in the beginning especially if it's cooler out

 

[milkyjoe]

The guys at Nova Crop Control...the ones that do the sap testing...say you cannot prevent a plant from taking up K if it is available. They are kind of adamant on that being a for real problem.

Good compost is a great thing because of the organic matter...bad compost is turrible. I would rather have a minerally balanced low organic matter soil than a poorly balanced high organic matter soil...but that is me, definitely an opposing camp on that one.

I got a month before I have to get something out there....I plant on June 1. So I will see what I can come up with.

If I have to go with high K then tons of PHT-Phosphorous and Albion Ca in the foliar. Try to force Ca into the plant to prevent it from taking up all of that K, but long term I don't want to have to always do that.

The AS would get things going and drop that pH a little in the spring but would not solve the root cause problem. Best to see if I can address that.

edit...I can always add organic matter with either clean worm castings or with this stuff http://www.leonarditeproducts.com/Source.aspx. Little more expensive but do it once and don't fight it for yrs.

 

[Backyard Farmer]

I would also rather have the soil be balanced and sacrifice organic matter. You can even build the organic matter of the soil just by growing healthy plants in the presence of lots of biology.

What bagged peat did you use? Premier?

I'm going to read back through your posts and see if you have the compost analysis posted

 

[theJointedOne]

man, i wish i took chemistry lol

time to break out some old books....

 

[Rising Moon]

Wouldn't a highly active fungal population tie up a considerable amount of K given proper species introduction and feedstock? As in woodchips and oyster mushrooms.

Seems like symbiotic planting/innocluting could be the answer to maintaining high organic matter, while balancing the mineral relationships plants, humus and microbes have

Many deep rooted herbs, dynamic accumulators and fast growing legume trees mine the soil around them, and store vast amounts of minerals in living organic matter.

 

[Cep]

^^^ Maybe, it would be difficult calculating how much it would tie up though. I was thinking of doing this to drop N levels in my soil but I'm hesitant for that reason. What I'll probably end up doing is tilling in about 5% wood chips to my existing soil and applying biodigester, then run an analysis a month later to see how it changes.

Backyard, yes, as far as organic matter goes my plan is to use more bio inoculants this year, with more frequent early complete foliar feeding to have the plants putting more carbon in the root zone right away. I was lazy last year early on but this year I wan't those big, fibrous, fluffy root balls that you see in some of the vids.

Milky, did they speak of how effective Ca & P foliars are in suppressing K uptake? I wonder if thats something that would need to be done every two days to get the results you're looking for. I'd rather take my time now fiddling with my mix than be scrambling mid season with corrective sprays. Enough time will be spent trellising, pulling tarps, running down tweakers, etc.

 

[CaliGabe]

I talked with AEA last night and they were horrified by those K levels. They say the plants will grow well, look nice but that I will never get enough Ca into the cell walls leading to stretchy, weak plants. I will also end up taking in too much NO3 compared to NH4 leading to the problems associated with that...so fast, green growth, but not as much bud set and health issues

Hopefully that hookup with AEA will pay some dividends for you

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Backyard, yes, as far as organic matter goes my plan is to use more bio inoculants this year, with more frequent early complete foliar feeding to have the plants putting more carbon in the root zone right away.[/FONT]

Talk to the guys at AEA and see if their HumaCarb will help with this. The stuff is inexpensive and a little goes a long way. I know it helps build soil over time.

I would have sent a visitors message yet can't being a newbie. Wanted to say Hi and hope this is you guys best season yet

 

[Reevage]

I just use foxfarm with extra Pearliet. works great

 

[milkyjoe]

^^^ Maybe, it would be difficult calculating how much it would tie up though. I was thinking of doing this to drop N levels in my soil but I'm hesitant for that reason. What I'll probably end up doing is tilling in about 5% wood chips to my existing soil and applying biodigester, then run an analysis a month later to see how it changes.

Backyard, yes, as far as organic matter goes my plan is to use more bio inoculants this year, with more frequent early complete foliar feeding to have the plants putting more carbon in the root zone right away. I was lazy last year early on but this year I wan't those big, fibrous, fluffy root balls that you see in some of the vids.

Milky, did they speak of how effective Ca & P foliars are in suppressing K uptake? I wonder if thats something that would need to be done every two days to get the results you're looking for. I'd rather take my time now fiddling with my mix than be scrambling mid season with corrective sprays. Enough time will be spent trellising, pulling tarps, running down tweakers, etc.

The plant works just like the soil...it can only hold so many cations, so many anions. So yea, if you can get Ca in the plant through foliar you can prevent the uptake from the soil of K. I see that as an emergency only thing, a crapshoot. If I gotta I will, but I would prefer not to.

On the compost...first of all I am working with a company called Build a Soil in western CO. They are going above and beyond to get me the soil I want, I cannot say enough about how good their customer service is. They are literally testing everything for me. And I will bet you this...90% of compost is not what you think it is. Unless yours is tested you probably cannot say it is better. I am 100% confident we will work out a great soil and would recommend them to anyone in the area.

Anyways...here is the test result for the compost only

tcec 46.5
organic matter 28.04
pH 7.8

P2O5 2122
S 327

Base cation saturations
Ca 55.23
Mg 15.55
K 21.37
Na 4.25
H 0

ppms
B 1.94
Fe 102
Mn 34
Zn 18.32
Cu 1.03


Thing is we have tested a few other composts. They are worse. I am rapidly becoming a compost skeptic.

 

[milkyjoe]

Hopefully that hookup with AEA will pay some dividends for you

Talk to the guys at AEA and see if their HumaCarb will help with this. The stuff is inexpensive and a little goes a long way. I know it helps build soil over time.

I would have sent a visitors message yet can't being a newbie. Wanted to say Hi and hope this is you guys best season yet

That hook up is paying big dividends for me indoors. I don't have hard numbers quite yet, but yield and quality are both up big time. Fantasic guys to learn from.

I use the humacarb to deal with bicarbonates in my water. Good product.

 

[Backyard Farmer]

I don't think that stuff is a necessarily bad place to start. For compost those are actually not bad numbers. It just may require work to be 33 percent of the mix.

What a lot of us underestimate is taking what's right here on our farms and making it work. It takes more time and you can give 5 yards to one plant in one season but over time you're winning if you can get the native soil working ...

I'm about to plant alfalfa in my upper field after tilling it and spraying it with sea crop , spectrum , micro5000 and MycoGensis , cutting and letting the alfalfa get eaten up by bio digester then rotate to oats

 

[greentreefarmer]

Earthworm Farm Soil Factory in Butte Valley, CA. I have seen several people sing the praise of Earthworm Farm. Was getting ready to take the plunge. At $198 a Cubic Yard, is the value there?
If I purchase and grow in that soil, will it need to be supplemented throughout the grow with ferts? Exactly, how are you peeps using this soil in the manner that it would be better than say, Vermifire or any of the other soil companies that cater to the 420 boys? Thanks Guys, and my thoughts go out to Anonymous too. Lost my barn once, and all the animals in it. Not as bad as a whole house though.

Just took a trip to the factory and purchased some of the Earthworm Soil Norcal. The stuff looks better than any bagged products I've seen. I really like that they make their own compost, and only use green waste. They stand by their product and pride themselves in their efforts to encourage bio-activity at every step of the soil making process. The price is steep, but after doing the dollar math to put my own soil together, and the time that it takes to dial it in right, I'm optimistic that the extra money spent will be worth it.

I'll be sending in samples to be tested so I'll try n keep this forum posted with the results. Would love some feedback from you OGs and better read folks on here at that point as well.

...and after the sleepless nights I've had thinking about soil, I would agree that your soil strategy is arguably the most important decision you make all season, so it's definitely worth the research and skepticism.

Much love to the BIG OUTDOOR THREAD!

 

[CaliGabe]

That hook up is paying big dividends for me indoors. I don't have hard numbers quite yet, but yield and quality are both up big time. Fantasic guys to learn from.

Fookin awesome. I offered that hookup to a lot of growers and mostly fell on deaf ears.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I'm about to plant alfalfa in my upper field after tilling it and spraying it with sea crop , spectrum , micro5000 and MycoGensis , cutting and letting the alfalfa get eaten up by bio digester then rotate to oats [/FONT]

AEA's PhotoMag was specifically designed for alfalfa. I talked to them a few years back about it when working on a Sea-Crop project. In the right growing area farmers are getting an extra cutting a season but mainly much better yields per acre. Something about the alfalfa's stems becoming totally solid opposed to hollow in many instances. Application rate is pretty low from what I remember. Think they recommend it's use in conjunction with Sea-Crop. I think they recommend Sea-Crop in conjunction with everything lol.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Just took a trip to the factory and purchased some of the Earthworm Soil Norcal. The stuff looks better than any bagged products I've seen.[/FONT]

Oh pretty soon their soil will be bagged but not in time for this season

 

[Giggin & Diggin]

Thanks for the amazing soil mix tips. Just thinking up our summer organic mix as well and your ideas are always a blessing.


G&D

 

[Dreambig]

Lab results

Lab results

So I sent in some samples to Logan labs. I like them better than then the local lab I used a few weeks ago...
I sent three samples the column that is labeled used is from my indoor organic mix that's had run cycle run through it. The second column labeled fresh is the same mix but freshly made. The third column labeled greenhouse is from my 300 gl smart pots that I used last year and the one I'm more interested in making right for obvious reasons.
If any one has any input I'd appreciate it. as I kinda know what I should do but not 100 percent sure. Thanks for all the help and this amazing thread.