The growing large plants, outdoors, thread...

[high life 45]

BF, I thought you just said 5# plants werent that big just a few pages ago.....JK

I always though letting new soil cook is a good way to let any eggs of unwanted critters hatch and break down into stuff your plants can eat via bacteria.

Roots Organics is local around here and comes loaded with thrips, put it under a dark tarp in the sun for a few days and no thrips..

Ive let soil mixes cook or sit and added a bunch of mycos and when I went to move it the myco was sooo strongly developed that it came out in single chunks when I dug into it. You could see the long stringy filaments protruding from the soil.

Plants grew faster in it than the uncooked soil, at least from what we noticed.

 

[Backyard Farmer]

Totally stand by what I said. 5# is just a good sized tree. It isn't huge by any means.

No doubt spots get better over time, but you can walk on to a spot late and work relatively hard and still do good [average 5#]

Although you may have developed a fungal network by adding protein , spores , moisture , and substrate it still takes organic acids produced by the roots to break down the added amendments.

The Fungi does eat the protein to a certain degree but it really takes those root exudates to get the fungal network jumping because the hyphae travels fastest when its attached to a root system , the organic acids released by the root system allow ions like Calcium Boron and Potassium to be made available, trace and ultra trace elements begin to be broken down and made available by these same organic acids

Mix up your soil and get a soil test , let it 'cook' and get another one ...Compare. Unless something grew in it , Cation and Anion balance will be what it is exchangeable nutrient matrix will be what it is and soluble nutrient matrix will be close to the same

 

[ponobegone]

let your soil cook for a month guys its not a grow myth lol.

 

[milkyjoe]

If you do "cook" it at least plant some grass or something that can dump root exudates. Even your microbes need minerals available. If you think about it foliar feed that grass to speed up the process.

or not...we all buy our own ticket

 

[Backyard Farmer]

@milkyjoe , I'll see you at the show. In the front row.

 

[Cep]

100 ppm is the number I am shooting for. But it depends on how well your microbiology are working also. If you have bacteria that can fix N from the atmosphere and then nematodes, protozoa, etc you could probably get by with 50.

I remember reading about people doing very well with low numbers (10-30) if the biology is working well. These people weren't growing trees however. I've got a bunch of stuff from Kempf, which is a mix of his products and Tainio's, and I definitely won't need things like pepzyme if I'm in the 200ppm range with N. I also don't know the Molybdenum levels in the soil. Something I should figure out of I drop N levels and spend time and money on inoculants.

There's no reason to cook anything because it takes roots with biology on them to break down organic nutrients. It's important to just get the cation and anion sites built right. If you're really worried about the soil being too hot you can putt a buffer of potting soil around your transplant when you plug in… Letting soil cook is a grow myth.

If the amendments are fresh or not composted it's safer to let the soil sit for a while. If you have high soil EC you can burn plants just like you would in a high EC hydro system. It seems like you're saying decomposition won't occur without plants and their exudates?

The Fungi does eat the protein to a certain degree but it really takes those root exudates to get the fungal network jumping because the hyphae travels fastest when its attached to a root system , the organic acids released by the root system allow ions like Calcium Boron and Potassium to be made available, trace and ultra trace elements begin to be broken down and made available by these same organic acids.

This is true, for mycorrhizal fungi. Plant/fungi relationships in the soil are pretty complex though and I want to make sure people understand that mycorrhizal species are most beneficial in systems where N and P are limited. Plants can "choose" the partners they want to feed (N fixing bacterial species and mycorrhizal fungi). This has been shown in the bean family and although I can't claim the same for cannabis (absence of research) I would bet money it's the case. This ability to feed some microbes and cut off others exists because certain symbiotic species can sometimes become lazy and fix less or no nutrients (N in bacteria, P in fungi). These plants are then deemed parasites by the plant and the food is cut off.

Bottom line is that most of us are creating super rich soil. The need for expensive microbial inoculants isn't as great as the companies that make them would have you think. If you are reusing soil or building on already existing mounds (highly recommended) and there is something that is starting to get depleted in the soil, the plant will start to attract a beneficial species in order to increase the availability. N fixing bacteria and P fixing fungi are already in your soil…

 

[rik78]

sorry for the little off topic guys, but it will be quick

"Totally stand by what I said. 5# is just a good sized tree. It isn't huge by any means."

when you speak of that "5#" I understand that is a pot-container size???

how is this system call? where can i get more info? any key-words? explanation?

 

[Backyard Farmer]

Hey Cep

What I'm saying is that while green matter like Alfalfa Meal might decompose quickly in the soil during the "cooking" process the overall soil profile isn't going to change with out a plant growing in it. Where are the elements in the soil going to go with out a plant drawing them up to make new tissue ? They will stay in the matrix , and what frees them is organic acids from the roots.

If you put in so much input that needs to decompose that you're probably in a position to have other things out of balance too and it will show up later on once a plant starts growing in the soil. Like Milkyjoe said, it could even be a grass .... Soil needs a plant as much as plants need soil. They are one system.

You're correct in that after a few seasons things start to work themselves out as native microbe life begin to inhabit the soil..as long as you aren't driving your own ship in to the ground by making poor choices , but every one has their own ideas on what to do during the year...

There is so little we really know about plants , their life systems and what's really happening on the microscopic level that we are in an exciting time in our industry. The potential of real organic farming is just now beginning to be understood.

The opportunity to set the ground work for real research is about to open up once we get recognized as legitimate farmers and agronomists.

 

[OrganicBuds]

Care to share your soil mix BackyardFarmer?

Also, looks like I might have to do a bagged mix depending on where my location is this year. Seems like VermiFire is good, anybody have a soil analysis on VermiFire? Or experience?

 

[Dreambig]

Organicbuds you'll definitely want to add some type of calcium to the vermafire since it has all that coco in it. From my experience indoors with it things start to run out of calcium after about 6 weeks in veg. I would use half vermafire and half peat based soil like happy frog or something and add some oyster shell or other calcium rich amendments.

 

[milkyjoe]

Cep...if you have anything going right now and you are in a rich soil just try the foliar mix they show. I believe it has micro 5000 and some kempf stuff in it...holy shit is all I will say.

 

[milkyjoe]

Care to share your soil mix BackyardFarmer?

Also, looks like I might have to do a bagged mix depending on where my location is this year. Seems like VermiFire is good, anybody have a soil analysis on VermiFire? Or experience?

Here is the thing. When you start mixing your own what is in it depends a whole lot on the compost. No two mixes are gonna come out the same. You need to sample the raw mix and then adjust that to Albrecht ratios. Giving exact mixes can be totally misleading.

 

[Cep]

@Backyard Farmer

I was asking the question because cooking a hot mix could prevent damage. Planting in a buffer is also a way to avoid it like you said. If people are using things like blood meal, fish products, etc. they can harm their plants. It's just not very common with organic inputs.

The short answer to your question about where elements could go once in the soil: some are more mobile than others. I know you know this but a hypothetical would be tilling in manure and losing some N to leeching in the first spring rain. Plants grow better in soil amended with finished compost than in soil with added, undigested material. The answer to whether people should let their soil cook depends on what and how much you add. I would wager that a soil that needs to be cooked before planting to prevent damage prob has unnecessary N, K, and Na levels. I'm in the same camp as you and milky as far as letting the plants and microbes do most of the work for me. In which case, N fixing cover crops save people money with free fertilizer.

Last year I chose to add high N inputs because I failed to use cover crops properly and I was in a hurry. Put it this way, N will prob never have to be added to that soil for the next 1000 years.

We should probably invite FDA/USDA camera crews to our grows to show them how serious we are about our work...

 

[Cep]

@Milky

What product exactly? Did you get the package of testers they sent?

 

[b00m]

sorry for the little off topic guys, but it will be quick

"Totally stand by what I said. 5# is just a good sized tree. It isn't huge by any means."

when you speak of that "5#" I understand that is a pot-container size???

how is this system call? where can i get more info? any key-words? explanation?

5# is a 5 pound tree when harvested and dried rik78

 

[Backyard Farmer]

Care to share your soil mix BackyardFarmer?

Also, looks like I might have to do a bagged mix depending on where my location is this year. Seems like VermiFire is good, anybody have a soil analysis on VermiFire? Or experience?

Hi , what I'm doing is specific to the compost and native soil I'm starting with ... if you did what I do where you are , it may or may not work, so I would prefer to just say that my soil mix consists of compost , castings , perlite , peat moss , lava rock and then adjusted to Albrecht ratios using diverse range of inputs.

 

[bamboogardner]

Care to share your soil mix BackyardFarmer?

Also, looks like I might have to do a bagged mix depending on where my location is this year. Seems like VermiFire is good, anybody have a soil analysis on VermiFire? Or experience?

Hey OrganicBuds. Your lucky day. I sent out a sample of Vermifire from last year. I mixed it 50/50 with a fresh sample of the same that has never been used because that is what I am going to use to mix with what I already have. I was going to do a special blend like a few on another thread recommended, but I just do not have the time.

So if you will wait just a tad, I should have the results this upcoming week. I sent the sample priority mail and the lab stated it only takes a few days for the results to be posted on the net.

I'll post when I have more info on that.

 

[Shcrews]

thats awesome, i am using vermifire too. post those results when you can thanks!

 

[dickcorn]

@backyard farmer, you ever run those ultra sonja seeds last year? If so what were your feelings about it as a outdoor strain? How we'll did it store?

 

[Backyard Farmer]

@dickcorn Hi bud, I gave away all those to a friend who said he was in need of starts for a project. He claimed they got fucked up, but I think the truth is some one forgot to water and they died. I luckily still have one more vial of the seeds that I will work through myself to be able to answer your questions.