The growing large plants, outdoors, thread...

[Yes4Prop215]

@Yes4Prop215 California is already setting its model up with various counties enacting outdoor growing zoning ordinances, these will just be the springboard for permits etc.,

so you are thinking that the current local zoning ordinances are what they will use? hopefully, its pretty much certain that the triangle will do it, I'm wondering about gold country and the eastern side of the valley up to the foothills since there is awesome farmland and better access to water. currently my county is allowing 66 plants on properties of 20 acres and 99 plants on 40 acres which is pretty liberal. all CA "legal" pot will probably need to be grown in AG or secluded property with large setbacks from neighbors, and indoor grows must be on commercial. In CO they are not selling basement grown indoor or backyard grown outdoor in the shops afaik, they all have to be to a certain code.

it seems most central valley counties have banned cultivation but they might change their tune if it goes legal in CA since they already have the best AG structure setup. i just wonder the impact if many fruit/veggie farmers stop growing food and start growing pot, might have some negative consequences not just to wholesale marijuana pricing but also the food market. i would expect a strict permit structure so that everybody with acreage isn't just blowing the whole spot up with thousands of plants.

 

[Backyard Farmer]

I don't think they'll go with what's on the books now but I think they'll definitely base a lot of where the herb can come from on the counties with the strictest zoning ordinances on where and how the MMJ can be grown

 

[Arminius]

I lived in Gilroy for a couple years, and would always get a laugh from the news reports of artichoke thieves. artichokes are nowhere near as valuable as cannabis. Those fruit and veggie ops would end up needing razor wire on their fields...

 

[reppin2c]

Can anybody direct me to the happy frog soil analysis buried deep in the almost 600 pages that is this thread. I think it was somewhere around 400

 

[NorCalDreaming]

Can anybody direct me to the happy frog soil analysis buried deep in the almost 600 pages that is this thread. I think it was somewhere around 400

I still want my '2C is My Hero' T-shirt. I check the mailbox every day and always empty . Was gonna call you today . Got some good things cooking and we'll catch up soon. Doing a bunch more research on soil options for ya.

 

[OrganicBuds]

I would love to hear about those soil options as well. Anybody have any good soil analysis labs? I used this lab last year on my recycled soil and had a fantastic season. http://www.kinseyag.com/SoilAnal.htm I will most likely use them again this season, been meaning to get on top of that. Only down side is they are based in Missouri, should be somewhere local (Cali) that can do the same tests.

Here is a quote from the website, and is all you need to know. "The recommendations will utilize the proven principles of the Kinsey/ Albrecht
system of soil fertility management."

 

[NorCalDreaming]

I would love to hear about those soil options as well. Anybody have any good soil analysis labs? I used this lab last year on my recycled soil and had a fantastic season. http://www.kinseyag.com/SoilAnal.htm I will most likely use them again this season, been meaning to get on top of that. Only down side is they are based in Missouri, should be somewhere local (Cali) that can do the same tests.

Here is a quote from the website, and is all you need to know. "The recommendations will utilize the proven principles of the Kinsey/ Albrecht
system of soil fertility management."

For a lab try A & L Western in Modesto and see what they can do for you.

 

[milkyjoe]

Fuck Kinsey, that motherfucker takes forever. Logan Labs will have your results back in a week, not local for you but really good to deal with.

Also be aware these high organic matter soils do not react like Albrecht predicts. What you want to get with a Mehlich test is a paste test...basically a very light acid, tries to mimic what is actually available in the soil at any given time.

You will find all that organic acid from humus ties up about 3 times as much as the cec would suggest. You can load the soil much more heavily than you would think using Kinsey.

You really want the ergs (or EC) of the soil up in that 0.6-0.7 range the entire grow.

And you want more traces than any of these guys will tell you...kelp, basalt, azomite, etc.

At least that is my take...what it is worth to anyone else has to be up to them.

 

[NorCalDreaming]

Milkyjoe...that last post jogged my memory a bit regarding the light acid test thing. The rust is starting to come off.

 

[GseeG]

Fuck Kinsey, that motherfucker takes forever. Logan Labs will have your results back in a week, not local for you but really good to deal with.

Also be aware these high organic matter soils do not react like Albrecht predicts. What you want to get with a Mehlich test is a paste test...basically a very light acid, tries to mimic what is actually available in the soil at any given time.

You will find all that organic acid from humus ties up about 3 times as much as the cec would suggest. You can load the soil much more heavily than you would think using Kinsey.

You really want the ergs (or EC) of the soil up in that 0.6-0.7 range the entire grow.

And you want more traces than any of these guys will tell you...kelp, basalt, azomite, etc.

At least that is my take...what it is worth to anyone else has to be up to them.

good info, ty.

i think its important for people to understand less is more when it comes to your input amend and moreso if you have a hard time figuring your situation, more soil will make this all the less important, as the roots are excellent workers. im not suggesting that one should not try to make soil "perfect" for them, but, if one is in question, having a massive soil system tends to autocorrect if you are generally on track already.

and i totally agree with having more traces than the info we have had passed down, adequate and perfect have always had quite the gap...

 

[NorCalDreaming]

More soil will make this all less important...yes. Yet for those working with less soil and still pulling off awesome harvests of yield with quality kudos. More soil gives those less capable more wiggle room.

 

[Backyard Farmer]

more soil is just more soil, thinking having more soil thats incorrectly balanced does anything for you is a joke.

 

[Cep]

I'd also like to know the test results of ffof. Maybe there's a thread with the results for the common mixes i.e. black gold, happy frog, ffof, etc.?

Fuck Kinsey, that motherfucker takes forever. Logan Labs will have your results back in a week, not local for you but really good to deal with.

Also be aware these high organic matter soils do not react like Albrecht predicts. What you want to get with a Mehlich test is a paste test...basically a very light acid, tries to mimic what is actually available in the soil at any given time.

You will find all that organic acid from humus ties up about 3 times as much as the cec would suggest. You can load the soil much more heavily than you would think using Kinsey.

You really want the ergs (or EC) of the soil up in that 0.6-0.7 range the entire grow.

And you want more traces than any of these guys will tell you...kelp, basalt, azomite, etc.

At least that is my take...what it is worth to anyone else has to be up to them.

I think they use carbonic to try and be on par with root exudates?
Do you mean that its easy to oversupply amendments using a strong acid soil test?

more soil is just more soil, thinking having more soil thats incorrectly balanced does anything for you is a joke.

True. Its easy to picture why if you have seen the change in plant health after the roots have sunk into shitty subsoil.

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

I would love to hear about those soil options as well. Anybody have any good soil analysis labs? I used this lab last year on my recycled soil and had a fantastic season. http://www.kinseyag.com/SoilAnal.htm I will most likely use them again this season, been meaning to get on top of that. Only down side is they are based in Missouri, should be somewhere local (Cali) that can do the same tests.

Here is a quote from the website, and is all you need to know. "The recommendations will utilize the proven principles of the Kinsey/ Albrecht
system of soil fertility management."

Interesting URL there Senor.

 

[milkyjoe]

I think they use carbonic to try and be on par with root exudates?
Do you mean that its easy to oversupply amendments using a strong acid soil test?


.[/COLOR]

When you are dealing with field soils 5-10% organic matter is considered good...the Luebke farm has 18 and they are basically kings of organic matter as far as I know.

Bagged Black and Gold has 35% organic matter.

That organic matter complexes elements as, or more, effectively than cec sites imo.

You can actually load more amendments without fear of them becoming soluble in our mixes than Albrecht math predicts. For example I can load at least 3 times the Ca that math would suggest without overfilling cec sites and without increasing soluble Ca too much.

If you are really interested here is that Albrecht math. Say a yard of our soil weighs 800 lbs. An acre of field soil is claimed to weigh 2,000,000 lbs...so when you calculate lbs per acre with Albrecht math you then need to multiply that by 800/2000000 to get lbs per yard...yes?

OK so B and G has a tcec of 34 (at least my bag did, that is no guarantee yours does). To calculate lbs per acre for a soil with a 34 tcec...34 x 0.68 (% of sites you want occupied by Ca) x 400 (how many lbs of Ca a soil with a cec of 1 would hold if that was all that was on it...Albrecht did this work) = 9248 lbs. So a yard would be that times 800/2000000 = 3.7 lbs, call it 4.

I know for a fact you can triple that, and every other base cation, without exceeding 0.7 EC, or getting your paste test out of whack, or getting your base cation saturations out of whack.

You still have to keep them in proportion though. But this gives you a much bigger battery in the same amount of soil.

If you want to kinda prove some of this to yourself here is a simple test. Take a soil and measure the EC then water in some soluble humic acid....you can drive the EC down as the humus ties up elements.

anyways...just my opinion, take it for what you think it is worth.

edit...DOH, I did everything BUT answer your actual question. I think it is very easy to under supply minerals based on Mehlich type acid tests. If we could actually run tissue tests what I think we would see is that we could get a lot more minerals into the plants and improve both health and yield.

 

[GseeG]

more soil is just more soil, thinking having more soil thats incorrectly balanced does anything for you is a joke.

notice i said generally on track already. i think i speak to the majority assuming most can build a basic soil that is in balance

i notice excellent results with soil that has minimal input with a ideal balance and life.

sorry if i worded that silly, i would never suggest someone having a bunch of garbage soil as a fix.

nice to see u guys around

 

[GseeG]

yah ive found that out the hard way milky, like the plant hit a brick wall in full stride, or in my case a clay wall.

im going to try to do some very shallow, yet large beds over some killer soil ive been building over the last 5 years. i saw some great success with this at another garden and the subsoil was just previous years soil without reammend.

i may have to water these more than i'd like in the heat of the summer, but with proper mulching on my side, im gonna give it a whirl.

i also have a couple side by sides in mind, once the details come together ill try to keep up with documenting.

 

[NorCalDreaming]

more soil is just more soil, thinking having more soil thats incorrectly balanced does anything for you is a joke.

Oh heck you're right in how I put that. I totally agree it does not make up for any imbalances. Guess my point was the larger plant you attempt to grow in a smaller amount of soil the less tolerance you have for error.

EDIT - I saw Nomaad here pull off 8 lb Blue Dreams in 200 gallon smarties in his third year of growing. He was on his game and the plants were beautiful. A local friend could barely get 3 lbs in a large raised bed with the same cut. It was that extra soil volume and basically being in the ground that made the difference for him. The plants looked good start to finish yet never really excelled. He had some plants in the same soil in kiddie pools and he could barely finish them properly and yields were very low. He's a knucklehead and lazy otherwise he would have done much better.

 

[OrganicBuds]

I totally agree with more soil = more room for error.

The last couple years I was growing in 65 gal pots. This last year I stepped up to all my pots being 100 gal, except for one that is in a 150 gal pot. Huge difference, and my pots still could be bigger. I pulled 4.8 elbows off my 5g'sRed that was in a 100 gal pot and was only top dressed with EWC all season. (besides a weakly regimen of foliage sprays.) Top quality smoke also. That is the biggest difference I found when upping my pot size, the quality of the herb goes way up. Could be other factors as I learn new techniques every year, but more room for error means better cannabis.

That organic matter complexes elements as, or more, effectively than cec sites imo.

You can actually load more amendments without fear of them becoming soluble in our mixes than Albrecht math predicts. For example I can load at least 3 times the Ca that math would suggest without overfilling cec sites and without increasing soluble Ca too much.

This is why I love the soil from EWSF. I don't think it was loaded up with enough nutrients across the board, but the humus levels where off the charts. I am excited to work the soil with a full season under my belt, should only get better.

Also, Dave from the EWSF also promotes organic matter as being more effective than cec sites.

This is also why I have my own worm bins. Nothing spruces up your organic levels than EWC and EWC slurry's.

 

[Cep]

If you want to kinda prove some of this to yourself here is a simple test. Take a soil and measure the EC then water in some soluble humic acid....you can drive the EC down as the humus ties up elements.

I've seen this before with a bacterial product dropping the ec in a solution

anyways...just my opinion, take it for what you think it is worth.

edit...DOH, I did everything BUT answer your actual question. I think it is very easy to under supply minerals based on Mehlich type acid tests. If we could actually run tissue tests what I think we would see is that we could get a lot more minerals into the plants and improve both health and yield.

Gotcha, bigger sponge with high o matter. Mine comes out between 15-20 on tests. I was worried this year about putting too many amendments in after seeing the test results from several available soils in the area: One ("white lightning from a co called dean innovations) had ppm readings of 4375, 576, and 2231 for Ca, Mg, and K respectively. There was zero H in this soil and the pH was 7.2 with 18.4% o matter. I think this co had the more is better mindset.

Tissue tests are doable, pm me for details.