Robin_of_Loxxy
Member
What do you guys think about this, using a collapsible water bladder. Would something like this not require a timer or would you still want to incorporate a timer into it to keep the ground from being over saturated?
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What do you guys think about this, using a collapsible water bladder. Would something like this not require a timer or would you still want to incorporate a timer into it to keep the ground from being over saturated?
for someone like me who has to deal with terribly hot and humid summers this would be perfect. i can't wait to hear the results of your design.
G
Guest
We're going to get there Rudolf. Your goal and mine are the same.
I like the basic concept Robin, but what is the method of transfer from the 20 oz bottle to the leaching bottle?
On Saturday, i got out in the field and and attmepted the first real life installation of the latest design. Im not happy with the results as installation was too difficult and time consuming. I conducted the installations just before dawn and the ability to prepare everything was difficult while holding a small flashlight. I spent over 30 minutes per planting hole.
Practicality is as important as effieciency in my view. A system that requires one to carry lots of parts and then take forever to install them isn 't going to be practical for my growing methods. It was clear to me that because of the parts involved and the time required for the install, a grower could only complete a couple of installation per visit. I need to be able to carry the supplies to complete 4 installs per visit. Even at that pace, with my usual 40 plant grow, im going to have to make 10 trips.
Im back at the drawing board with new info. I believe I have found an effective method of providing moisture, I just need to find a way to make the installation of it quick and simple.
The design has to be practical, cheap, easy, light weight, and effective. Ill be back.
I like the basic concept Robin, but what is the method of transfer from the 20 oz bottle to the leaching bottle?
On Saturday, i got out in the field and and attmepted the first real life installation of the latest design. Im not happy with the results as installation was too difficult and time consuming. I conducted the installations just before dawn and the ability to prepare everything was difficult while holding a small flashlight. I spent over 30 minutes per planting hole.
Practicality is as important as effieciency in my view. A system that requires one to carry lots of parts and then take forever to install them isn 't going to be practical for my growing methods. It was clear to me that because of the parts involved and the time required for the install, a grower could only complete a couple of installation per visit. I need to be able to carry the supplies to complete 4 installs per visit. Even at that pace, with my usual 40 plant grow, im going to have to make 10 trips.
Im back at the drawing board with new info. I believe I have found an effective method of providing moisture, I just need to find a way to make the installation of it quick and simple.
The design has to be practical, cheap, easy, light weight, and effective. Ill be back.
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Robin_of_Loxxy
Member
The 20oz bottle is the leaching bottle. It is buried in the ground, covered in landscapeing cloth to prevent roots from covering the holes.
I used 2 bottles in my design both are fed off the res and are the "leeching bottles" for 2 plants in the design. I just didnt show the first one covered with the cloth so you could see the detail (or lack of.) You could add as many bottles to the design as you want for more and more plants.
I used 2 bottles in my design both are fed off the res and are the "leeching bottles" for 2 plants in the design. I just didnt show the first one covered with the cloth so you could see the detail (or lack of.) You could add as many bottles to the design as you want for more and more plants.
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Hey guys! I thought I'd share this thought with anyone who is thinking about various tweaks for the Gorilla Collar. I came up with this idea a moment before I came up with the GSWD. I was trying to think of a way to ensure even operation when using the Collar with a air-tight rez.
Basically, you make a "standard" Collar, but you drill holes on all sides of the emitter pipes, wrap with whatever you are using to prevent silt problems, and place the Collar in a shallow container, fill with a medium that is conductive to Capillary action(like Peat, Coco, Potting soil), and then your normal soil.
Since the collar is a container, water(blue lines) can only travel up to get out, which it will do as the soil sucks water from the soil in the hole. As the wicking media around the emitter pipe dries, air(red lines) will be allowed to enter it, which allows more water to flow.
Basically the container gives the Collar more control over managing how fast water and air is exchanged.
Anyways, this is the version of the Collar I'll be testing this year, lots more control without much more trouble than a basic collar, that is if you are using a airtight reservoir, but I doubt many will it seems. Good luck and wishes to all!
G
Guest
Hey folks.
Well, there have been advancements. I am working here with a couple of other growers that are also testing and trying different things. We met on Sat after my trial installs and reached some agreement.
First, there are 2 methods/ approaches to device design and installation and we all agreed the 2 were'nt really related.
1. A satellite reservoir system approach for the plot grower.
2. A single plant system for the single plant grower.
1. The Reservoir/plot system. There was no disagreement amongst us about the results of the collar with a reservoir feed. The collar in its basic form, layed on a track of compost and water crystals and buried at 3-4", uses water at a flow rate of approximately 1 pint per day per 8 foot plant. Use of the device in this arrangement reduces that amount of water needed from 1.25 gallons per day to 1 pint per day under very dry conditions. Very little water is lost with this method as the pint of moisture per day is released directly into the root area. We all agreed without reservation that when all factors are considered such as cost of producing the device, development and install labor, effectiveness and effieciency that for a reservoir system, the collar is very very effiecient. It can be improved upon, but not in any way that is cost or labor effective for a larger number of plants. If a grower had just had 1 small plot with a few plants, then the sytem could be made more efficient still but with a significant plot grow or for growers with numerous plots, the collar is it.This watering issue has been resolved for us. In our mind, if your'e a plot grower, the collar is as good as it gets and because of that conclusion, we'll remove his grow situation from further consideration for this thread.
2.Single plant irrigation: Efficiency here is more complicated simply because there isn't a continual water source available. Its the small amount that is released each day that makes the collar efficient in the plot setting, but with the single installation, watering is much more of a periodic event. Once every day or few days or week, but periodic. With the single plant approach, the question becomes one of how to get the periodic waterings to last between watering events and reduce the amount needed for each event. Its my consideration there are at least 2 ways to approach the issue.
A. A leaching approach which through vaccum, slowly releases the liquid. This requires control over the amount of air allowed into the bottle as that is the determining factor for the rate of water release from the bottle. Fittings and connections for this approach would have to be air tight.
B. A moisture retention approach. Since I cant get a continuous flow, can I retain the moisture that Ive released so that it doesnt evaporate or dissipate into the surrounding drier soil and remains available to the plant.
For single plant designs, we were all in aggreement on one primary understanding.
A growers final design must be based on his enviroment and watering needs.
For example, in Rudolf Red's situation where he has very hot and dry weather, he's probably going to lean toward a leaching approach in an effort to extend his water usage for longer periods. This growers design will cost a bit more and be a bit more detailed and extensive but once developed will greatly redudce the amount of water needed and extend the amount of time it takes to leach the water from supply bottles. In contrast, a grower that lives in an enviroment that normally provides adequate rainfall, with the exception of dry spells and the need for occassional waterings. This grower does not need the detailed design and installation of a system that will greatly extend watering efficiency. This grower is just providing supplemental moisture to get through the dry spell and does not have to try and provide every drop for the plant.
I am hopefully in category 2. How many 1000 year droughts can occur each decade? Surely to goodness I will return to normal conditions and only have to supplement my moisture. This aspect should be the guiding factor for my design and fwill be the guiding principle of a growers final design before proceeding forward.
So blynx, Ill post up my design here shortly. Im doing a little more testing, but I believe it will meet my needs. I have traded some effieciency for cost and ease of installation, but I believe I am well on my way to success, or at least my version of success. All growers must define what "success" looks like for their enviroment. That understanding will be the first step and the guiding factor for how one proceeds forward.
A little more food for thought.
Well, there have been advancements. I am working here with a couple of other growers that are also testing and trying different things. We met on Sat after my trial installs and reached some agreement.
First, there are 2 methods/ approaches to device design and installation and we all agreed the 2 were'nt really related.
1. A satellite reservoir system approach for the plot grower.
2. A single plant system for the single plant grower.
1. The Reservoir/plot system. There was no disagreement amongst us about the results of the collar with a reservoir feed. The collar in its basic form, layed on a track of compost and water crystals and buried at 3-4", uses water at a flow rate of approximately 1 pint per day per 8 foot plant. Use of the device in this arrangement reduces that amount of water needed from 1.25 gallons per day to 1 pint per day under very dry conditions. Very little water is lost with this method as the pint of moisture per day is released directly into the root area. We all agreed without reservation that when all factors are considered such as cost of producing the device, development and install labor, effectiveness and effieciency that for a reservoir system, the collar is very very effiecient. It can be improved upon, but not in any way that is cost or labor effective for a larger number of plants. If a grower had just had 1 small plot with a few plants, then the sytem could be made more efficient still but with a significant plot grow or for growers with numerous plots, the collar is it.This watering issue has been resolved for us. In our mind, if your'e a plot grower, the collar is as good as it gets and because of that conclusion, we'll remove his grow situation from further consideration for this thread.
2.Single plant irrigation: Efficiency here is more complicated simply because there isn't a continual water source available. Its the small amount that is released each day that makes the collar efficient in the plot setting, but with the single installation, watering is much more of a periodic event. Once every day or few days or week, but periodic. With the single plant approach, the question becomes one of how to get the periodic waterings to last between watering events and reduce the amount needed for each event. Its my consideration there are at least 2 ways to approach the issue.
A. A leaching approach which through vaccum, slowly releases the liquid. This requires control over the amount of air allowed into the bottle as that is the determining factor for the rate of water release from the bottle. Fittings and connections for this approach would have to be air tight.
B. A moisture retention approach. Since I cant get a continuous flow, can I retain the moisture that Ive released so that it doesnt evaporate or dissipate into the surrounding drier soil and remains available to the plant.
For single plant designs, we were all in aggreement on one primary understanding.
A growers final design must be based on his enviroment and watering needs.
For example, in Rudolf Red's situation where he has very hot and dry weather, he's probably going to lean toward a leaching approach in an effort to extend his water usage for longer periods. This growers design will cost a bit more and be a bit more detailed and extensive but once developed will greatly redudce the amount of water needed and extend the amount of time it takes to leach the water from supply bottles. In contrast, a grower that lives in an enviroment that normally provides adequate rainfall, with the exception of dry spells and the need for occassional waterings. This grower does not need the detailed design and installation of a system that will greatly extend watering efficiency. This grower is just providing supplemental moisture to get through the dry spell and does not have to try and provide every drop for the plant.
I am hopefully in category 2. How many 1000 year droughts can occur each decade? Surely to goodness I will return to normal conditions and only have to supplement my moisture. This aspect should be the guiding factor for my design and fwill be the guiding principle of a growers final design before proceeding forward.
So blynx, Ill post up my design here shortly. Im doing a little more testing, but I believe it will meet my needs. I have traded some effieciency for cost and ease of installation, but I believe I am well on my way to success, or at least my version of success. All growers must define what "success" looks like for their enviroment. That understanding will be the first step and the guiding factor for how one proceeds forward.
A little more food for thought.
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Lots of good conclusions there, must be nice to have a trustworthy think tank of growers nearby, most of us have only websites like this to work with, which isn't too bad really.
I don't personally know any other Guerrilla growers, most everyone I know who grows here has a medical card, or else grows indoors, ahhhh loneliness.
Very good point on the differences of Collar being used with a air-tight system and a non-airtight system, both work different enough that they are two different beasts. I'm looking forward to seeing this develop.
I don't personally know any other Guerrilla growers, most everyone I know who grows here has a medical card, or else grows indoors, ahhhh loneliness.
Very good point on the differences of Collar being used with a air-tight system and a non-airtight system, both work different enough that they are two different beasts. I'm looking forward to seeing this develop.
Hey silverback this is a great post and its really gave me some ideas. I'm gonna try to find the flattest 5 gallon container so I can bury it on its side under the soil but still give a little elevation above where I want the loops to be so it'll gravity drip of course. I can then run 10 plastic drip lines off the 5 gal rez.For the ''collars'' I'm gonna use T connectors to connect loops of drip line to the main lines to the rez, and holes poked in the drip collar loops.
silverback, I wish you would post up your final design. Ive been following this thread carefully and it has provided me with some very good ideas. Just hearing and reading the conversation between people with so much experience is a pleasure for me. I have followed Backcountry's design and conversation for years. This is icing.
G
Guest
Im finishing my stuff today DST. Ill get it up.
Good chook! Nurtured, a spark becomes a raging fire. It sounds like your flame is burning bright.
Thats good info BC. I didnt know that. You must really be in the boonies. Thank goodness, humans have a tendency to gather together in groups, (towns) and leave the boonies to those of us that are less interested in the group or their social activities. Ive found the boonies to be even less attractive to the towners after dark! I have a neighbor that lives less than a mile from me. It takes 30 minutes to drive to his home because of the winding road. It suprising how placing a mountain between to houses can isolate both of them!
Good chook! Nurtured, a spark becomes a raging fire. It sounds like your flame is burning bright.
Thats good info BC. I didnt know that. You must really be in the boonies. Thank goodness, humans have a tendency to gather together in groups, (towns) and leave the boonies to those of us that are less interested in the group or their social activities. Ive found the boonies to be even less attractive to the towners after dark! I have a neighbor that lives less than a mile from me. It takes 30 minutes to drive to his home because of the winding road. It suprising how placing a mountain between to houses can isolate both of them!
buggsuperstar
Member
My head is spinning from hearing all these ideas... not really sure what strategy would be most efficient for me! Looking forward to your final designs SB.
BELOW FRIGID
Member
Going south tomoorow to do some experimenting with the collar. Since I will be using a large reservoir (200 gallons) without the ability to create a vacume. I am going to make it without any asorbing material inside it. There will be a timer in between the resevoir and the lines going to the collars. Going to try and run 6 collars per reservoir. I am going to have to figure out how big to make the holes in the collar by starting real small and gradually make them bigger as needed until I get the flow rate I want so there is enough water to fill the collars without running out too fast. Then I will have to figure out how long and how often to run the timer. Cost is all reative. I figure if you spend a few extra bucks and do it right you can use the collars over and over indefinitely. I think most of of us turn a little product as well as for personals. I figure $10-$20 per hole including ferts and amendments and you get back $1500-$3500 per hole maybe more. Plus I wont have to worry about drippers clogging up and less visits to the garden. I will try and take some pic's of my installations.
Robin_of_Loxxy
Member
how will the res feed these, and what kind of res are you planning on using with them? Would it have to be an airtight res for it to work properly?
While I was researching irrigation I came across this online book by a favorite Vegetable gardener author, Steve Solomon, he has written many books about gardening in dry summer climates like mine, anyways here is a link to the book- http://www.soilandhealth.org/03sov/0302hsted/030201/03020100frame.html
I think this book may have some parts that may interest people using the Gorilla collar as Silverback shows, applying a strong fertilizer solution every 1-2 weeks in place of heavy regular watering. Which is genius, and Steve has done something similar in vegetable gardening.
Here are a couple quotes from the book that I think may be of interest-
Steves fertigation bucket isn't near as sophisticated as Silverbacks collar, but the idea is about the same, rather than pack veggies close together in the garden and use tons of water to make them grow, he spreads them out so they are not competing with each other(accomplished in Cannabis growing by lining your holes with plastic to keep out competing native plants), and gives each a strong dose of fertilizer water occasionally rather than pouring on tons of plain water. By fertigating rather than irrigating, the plants do not have to search for their nutrients, and use tons of water in the process. A very good strategy for saving water, and a strong case for making sure your holes are well fertilized in the first place.
I think this book may have some parts that may interest people using the Gorilla collar as Silverback shows, applying a strong fertilizer solution every 1-2 weeks in place of heavy regular watering. Which is genius, and Steve has done something similar in vegetable gardening.
Here are a couple quotes from the book that I think may be of interest-
Steves fertigation bucket isn't near as sophisticated as Silverbacks collar, but the idea is about the same, rather than pack veggies close together in the garden and use tons of water to make them grow, he spreads them out so they are not competing with each other(accomplished in Cannabis growing by lining your holes with plastic to keep out competing native plants), and gives each a strong dose of fertilizer water occasionally rather than pouring on tons of plain water. By fertigating rather than irrigating, the plants do not have to search for their nutrients, and use tons of water in the process. A very good strategy for saving water, and a strong case for making sure your holes are well fertilized in the first place.
buggsuperstar
Member
Hey SB a quick question:
Does that one inch PVC T work perfectly to create a air tight situation with a regular 2 Liter pop bottle or did you make some kind of modification to achieve that?
Does that one inch PVC T work perfectly to create a air tight situation with a regular 2 Liter pop bottle or did you make some kind of modification to achieve that?
Robin_of_Loxxy
Member
Here is what I am going to roll with. It is just a 1 gal jug with a half a pen tube siliconed through the bottom. Just like a giant aqua globe, the pen part goes int he ground. You can then cover the jug with a peice of camo net and some brush. I'm thinking this will give a plant 2 weeks of water or so during the summer. Along with water crystals and some local rain we should be good to go for decent sized plants...I will make a prototype tomorrow.
N707
Member
Silver Back, what an inspiring idea! I'll definatley be trying a version of this come spring.
I think you guys have shown some pretty awesome ideas, but are deviating from the main point of SB's design.....SIMPLICITY. KISS with the OD.
I am going with the collar method but using 2.5" black corregated tubing instead of the pvs and running it in a ring fed by 2 3L soda bottles. I will have the exact brand SB showed (the shammy) as I can get that in bulk suoper cheap at a store I used to help run. This is awesome, I cannot wait for the equinox......= ).
Good idea, I think that would work, but would not be as efficeint as it could.
Using th epen at the bottom will put alot of pressure from the column in hte jug, hence releasing the water faster.
I think if you expanded on the pen by using some 1/2" tubing running near horizontal (still buried) it would work great. Just my
I think you guys have shown some pretty awesome ideas, but are deviating from the main point of SB's design.....SIMPLICITY. KISS with the OD.
I am going with the collar method but using 2.5" black corregated tubing instead of the pvs and running it in a ring fed by 2 3L soda bottles. I will have the exact brand SB showed (the shammy) as I can get that in bulk suoper cheap at a store I used to help run. This is awesome, I cannot wait for the equinox......= ).
Here is what I am going to roll with. It is just a 1 gal jug with a half a pen tube siliconed through the bottom. Just like a giant aqua globe, the pen part goes int he ground. You can then cover the jug with a peice of camo net and some brush. I'm thinking this will give a plant 2 weeks of water or so during the summer. Along with water crystals and some local rain we should be good to go for decent sized plants...I will make a prototype tomorrow.
Good idea, I think that would work, but would not be as efficeint as it could.
Using th epen at the bottom will put alot of pressure from the column in hte jug, hence releasing the water faster.
I think if you expanded on the pen by using some 1/2" tubing running near horizontal (still buried) it would work great. Just my
