The Elbow Room; Round Infinity (Rare Dankness; Sin City; CBD strains; CMH lights)

[Dready_jake]

not really near a fan, but def the older lower leaver
there are leaves on other plants closer to fans with no wind burn, but they are newer fresher leaves...

for the most part thins are looking good in there, just going into week 4 now... show is about to start this round

See, I would call it humidity burn if anything cuz the fan didn't cause the drier air, if it was more humid the fan would've blown the more humid air at the plant. fans do dry the air but they aren't magic, if its humid they will blow humid air=no burn, I have ALOT of fans in My grow and I don't see things like that unless I overfert them. Just my 2cents, but the buds look great

 

[Avinash.miles]

vigorous air circulation 24 hours a day contributes to low rh, imo. call it what you will, wind burn/ low rh / VPD. I seriously doubt it's any kind of nute burn, I've not fed hardly anything that's readily available that could burn. I'm sure the heavy foliar feedings in early flowering are at part to blame, that electric atomizer sprayer REALLY tosses plants around and has the ability to soak the canopy in minutes. Those heavy regular foliar feedings combined with the BIG metal fans really kicking air around the room 24 hours a day... some lower leaves in canopy were looking rough, that's why I gently de-leafed yesterday.

tops of canopy have no "wind burn" and are looking happy as hell...

sef0ur, i'm so proud of myself for spotting that comfrey by your place, urban foraging - pro level.
actually, I have recently spotted son yellow yarrow blooming in local parking lots of stripmalls and generally around town.... ripe for the harvesting.

also I think I may have sprayed some STRONG fermented plant extracts and possibly done some leaf damage with slightly over-acidic foliar solutions. I've been told that finished fermented plant extracts made with lactic acid bacteria can be as low as 3 pH!
since switching to organics this is the first time I need a pH meter again, to test finished fermentations and foliar sprays for low pH. (I do have liquid and paper pH tests, much less accurate, but still usable for some tasks.

 

[Dready_jake]

vigorous air circulation 24 hours a day contributes to low rh, imo. call it what you will, wind burn/ low rh / VPD. I seriously doubt it's any kind of nute burn, I've not fed hardly anything that's readily available that could burn. I'm sure the heavy foliar feedings in early flowering are at part to blame, that electric atomizer sprayer REALLY tosses plants around and has the ability to soak the canopy in minutes. Those heavy regular foliar feedings combined with the BIG metal fans really kicking air around the room 24 hours a day... some lower leaves in canopy were looking rough, that's why I gently de-leafed yesterday.

If you have a room with minimal added humidity, fans will lower RH%, but if you are adding humidity (humidifier/sealed room) then there will never be too dry for the wind, but it can be a fine line. Humidity drops = "wind burn".

and 3 pH? Shit! I've never used Nuthing that I know of with that pH. That coulda burned on its own couldn't it?
But "heavy foliar feedings" couldn't that still be nute burn? as the plants are getting a lot of nutes both from the soil and the foliars?

 

[Bueno Time]

Sorry if its been said, I didnt read the entire thread, its been a while since I was in here, is your whole garden converted to organic/soil now?

I havent used comfrey FPE on my canna ladies yet to see how they respond, but I feed my worm bins the dried crumbled leaf and they love it. I tried the FPE on themselves (comfrey plants fed comfrey FPE), tomatoes, and a juvenile orange tree. The only thing that didnt like it was the orange tree made the new leaves rippled looking. I used fresh chopped leaf for my FPE with RO water in a 5 gal bucket with lid outside stirring a little bit once a day, I didnt dry the leaf first or use lacto b, though Im sure the lacto would help speed the process. Also comfrey FPE smells horrible smells like rotten shit, plants love it though lol.

 

[Avinash.miles]

If you have a room with minimal added humidity, fans will lower RH%, but if you are adding humidity (humidifier/sealed room) then there will never be too dry for the wind, but it can be a fine line. Humidity drops = "wind burn".

and 3 pH? Shit! I've never used Nuthing that I know of with that pH. That coulda burned on its own couldn't it?
But "heavy foliar feedings" couldn't that still be nute burn? as the plants are getting a lot of nutes both from the soil and the foliars?

Colorado peeps know my pain, if you are NOT running sealed room; low rh is a major issue here. my room definitely experiences drastic humidity drops, from when I spray/atomize the room well, get it soaked down with foliar feeds, then lites & fans cut on and humidity dries up pretty quick.

as for the 3 pH, remember that is the concentrated nutrient formula that measures at 3 pH, I mention it because of seaf0urs typo of 15:1 being EXTREMELY concentrated of a mix and hence too low of pH (methinks). I err on the cautious side and mix my foliars pretty light (probably close to 500:1). I've never tested the pH of my foliar sprays, but would like to. my descrption of my sprays as "heavy" was more in reference to the amount of water (2 gal res on the atomizer) and the pressurized spray that penetrates into the canopy and at times can leave the plants looking droopy and weighted down. That's why I like these big atomizers, especially for killing pests and preventative maintenance, not to mention good coverage for foliar feeds.

what's most important is that I believe the fpe's are doing more good than bad, the "wind damaged" leaves are a minority in the room, I really just wanted to be SURE it wasn't something else (like rust spot) that I should be worried about...

Sorry if its been said, I didnt read the entire thread, its been a while since I was in here, is your whole garden converted to organic/soil now?

I havent used comfrey FPE on my canna ladies yet to see how they respond, but I feed my worm bins the dried crumbled leaf and they love it. I tried the FPE on themselves (comfrey plants fed comfrey FPE), tomatoes, and a juvenile orange tree. The only thing that didnt like it was the orange tree made the new leaves rippled looking. I used fresh chopped leaf for my FPE with RO water in a 5 gal bucket with lid outside stirring a little bit once a day, I didnt dry the leaf first or use lacto b, though Im sure the lacto would help speed the process. Also comfrey FPE smells horrible smells like rotten shit, plants love it though lol.

yes, all organic soil now, completely converted
I haven't used comfrey yet, but have used my fpe's made from all kinds of random and not so random things. I've made 2 batches of fan leaf fpe, for veg. 2 (successful) batches from kickdown groceries (fruit: strawberries, papaya, pineapple, pears, bananas; roots: beets, radishes turnips), wildflowers, grasses and herbs, willow branches, eggshells. also made one batch with the freshwater clamshells specifically for calcium. since I've bade the lactobacillus ALL my fermented plant extracts have used it; aside from speeding up the process I think it makes a better fpe, the microbial activity is apparent, smells more yeasty wine than just alcohol-y.

Bueno Time when you "hurt" the new leaves of your orange tree did you foliar feed the fpe or root feed?
I ask because the only damage I've know done from these kinds of "bio-fertilizers" or fermented nutrients was via foliar feed on some tomato plants, and the newest leaves curled up.

edit: by my calculations 500:1 ratio is about a tablespoon per 2 gallon reservoir (my sprayer). so when I use fpe's, if i'm using 2 different one's I should use 1/2 tablespoon of one(eggshell & vinegar calphos or lacto extracted calcium) and half tablespoon of another (fermented fruit extract). It's likely that I went over that ration and definitely this could have contributed to my "wind burn" (considering I also have foliar feeding liquid kelp, protect silica, and both fresh and powdered aloe). I think this is a case of a cosmetic problem, something that bothers the grower more than the plants growing....

 

[FatherEarth]

I'd bet the burn from fermented concoctions has something to do with alcohol being created during the fermentation process...

 

[Avinash.miles]

I'd bet the burn from fermented concoctions has something to do with alcohol being created during the fermentation process...

I bet you are right, alcohols being generally low pH (acidic)

I thought I was in the safe zone mixing light, but probably a tad heavy handed. Luckily the "burn" is really limited, and I'm into week 5 now, no foliar regime is drastically reduced, don't want to soak my nuggets... altho some organic growers i know foliar feed nearly all of flowering.

^^ been mixing soil for next run. it's about 60% recycled from last round plus i added about a cubic foot of perlite, about 3 cubic feet of humic sources (EWC, home-made compost, and black mountain soil), maybe 2/3 cubic foot of aged horse manure. Also added some smaller lava rock we collected on a short hike and some crystals (drusy quarts on jasper and botryoidal chalcedony, small quartz points, black tourmaline, epidote, mica) strictly for vibes. amendments added today include blood, bone, kelp meal, rainbow mix veg, down to earth bio live, fish bone meal, azomite, glacial rock dust and earth worm castings and 20 gallons of my home-made bokashi (wheat bran, lacto, molasses fermented together.
Still need to add some oyster shell meal and kelp meal, perhaps some gypsum as well (probably will collect more local sand/rockdust from areas i know have gypsum and/or calcite). Have a removal permit for a local "community pit" to take a cubic yard of bentonite clay, cost me all of 78 cents.

 

[Dready_jake]

"Colorado peeps know my pain, if you are NOT running sealed room; low rh is a major issue here." I am a Colorado grower with a non sealed room, lol running a humidifier 24/7 and still can't get over 55% lol I too know the battle.lol

Also if its low on the plant and they're not getting much light the plant could just be diverting nutrients somewhere its getting light, and if so its the last thing to worry about.

 

[Avinash.miles]

I am a Colorado grower with a non sealed room, lol running a humidifier 24/7 and still can't get over 55% lol I too know the battle.lol

Also if its low on the plant and they're not getting much light the plant could just be diverting nutrients somewhere its getting light, and if so its the last thing to worry about.

that's right, u r co peeps, u know.
i'd have to run serious humidifiers in my room like 3-5 diy pond fogger 5 gallon bucket styles for my room, imo.
here is a pic of the damage that i believe is due to over-strong (acidic/alcoholic) foliar sprays:

^^ see the pale white-ish green spots on the other leaves not fully shown? also the full on brown crispy "burnt" circles on the main leaf shown? imo that's a result of the foliar sprays being too strong (looks kinda like low ca, but i can't imagine that is the case). The "wind burn" is only on edges of leaves.... both only show on lowest and oldest leaves in the room.
either way, it's much ado about nothing, imo the plants are healthy, just wana stay on top of what doesn't look 100% right in the room so that nothing gets away from me.

^^ Dieselrella x ogkush
all the plants from this seedstock have a similarly "long-haired" look in mid flowering.... generally has been a high yeilder, and i'm hoping this pheno is no different because it is the biggest plant in the room.

^^ Cookies tops, most aromatic plant in the room at the moment

^^ Tops of the LCB, the ones that unexpectedly shot up above not only everything in it's bed, but just about everything in the ROOM.

^^ cookies top on left, twista top on right
top of the world in this room, using the garage door rail as training/support

 

[FatherEarth]

Not really ado about nothing. It's def something. I feel it's ok to try and perfect your garden. Fine tuning and attention to detail is rewarded. Only the best will stick around for the long haul.. Twist that dial...I'm always trying to step it up a notch when possible...

 

[Dready_jake]

I agree with not making a big deal about a small thing and i also agree with fine tuned dialing the last post mentioned.

Both are right to an extent. I have new strains that Im dialing in the nutes on because they're sativa dom and hate the recipe the bottle recommends. (Too much N) I have a bunch of lower leafs, because j don't take leafs off when thinning just growth sites.

The reasoning is because the more "spare"leafs you have, the More opportunities to to diagnose and make sure its fixed. take off too many leafs when thinning and you might be left with limited leafs, and if something happens to them the buds are next. The extra lower leafs also catch any light that slips past the bud and doesn't let it go to waste. If the fan leafs below the canopy start to die, I have a lot of opportunities to fix it before a bud fan leaf is messed with. But because they are far from the light and shaded, I expect them to divert nutrients higher and kill them off but they get enough light not too. Sorry it was long but that's my experience with non canopy leafs

In a side note my strains stretch like crazy too.

 

[Avinash.miles]

Not really ado about nothing. It's def something. I feel it's ok to try and perfect your garden. Fine tuning and attention to detail is rewarded. Only the best will stick around for the long haul.. Twist that dial...I'm always trying to step it up a notch when possible...

thanks for that reminder, it's SOMETHING....
i meant the much ado about nothing part kind alike "bothering the grower more than the plants", hope i'm right.
have stopped spraying as often and have reduced my rates of fpe's in the sprays

as for the humidity, that issue will be tackled in the future...

 

[Seaf0ur]

youre still using protekt?...

I got a bunch of agsil16h...

I premix 150grams powder per liter... makes just around 8%... almost identical to protekt but without the price tag

I get the 4pounders... and 4 pounds of agsil lasts me quite a while...

 

[Avinash.miles]

I agree with not making a big deal about a small thing and i also agree with fine tuned dialing the last post mentioned.

Both are right to an extent. I have new strains that Im dialing in the nutes on because they're sativa dom and hate the recipe the bottle recommends. (Too much N) I have a bunch of lower leafs, because j don't take leafs off when thinning just growth sites.

The reasoning is because the more "spare"leafs you have, the More opportunities to to diagnose and make sure its fixed. take off too many leafs when thinning and you might be left with limited leafs, and if something happens to them the buds are next. The extra lower leafs also catch any light that slips past the bud and doesn't let it go to waste. If the fan leafs below the canopy start to die, I have a lot of opportunities to fix it before a bud fan leaf is messed with. But because they are far from the light and shaded, I expect them to divert nutrients higher and kill them off but they get enough light not too. Sorry it was long but that's my experience with non canopy leafs

In a side note my strains stretch like crazy too.

always tinkering, always fine tuning....
as for the canopy depth... leaving leaves down in the canopy to help diagnose, top of canopy looking happy, lush, green, no matter where the fans hit, the canopy is evenly "happy" looking, it's only underneath (where very little light is penetrating to that these "issues" are showing). even short, thin "sucker" branches in this lower area have no signs of flowers on them, so i removed them and add to mulch layer.

^^ as you can see the canopy is 3 feet deep on average (some taller tops push it to about 4 feet above the "thin line, and the outside edges of canopy extend lower where lite is available, whereas the inner canopy is more thinned out, it's dark under there). notice the top of the 6 foot ladder, sitting on the ground; gives some scale to the size of plants and canopy.

^^ canopy top of 1/3 of the room, looking all happy to me

Seaf0ur and anyone else making fermentations; do you add sugar/molasses in with plant matter and water and lacto/em1?
also, anyone using any of the Tainio products?

 

[Bueno Time]

yes, all organic soil now, completely converted
I haven't used comfrey yet, but have used my fpe's made from all kinds of random and not so random things. I've made 2 batches of fan leaf fpe, for veg. 2 (successful) batches from kickdown groceries (fruit: strawberries, papaya, pineapple, pears, bananas; roots: beets, radishes turnips), wildflowers, grasses and herbs, willow branches, eggshells. also made one batch with the freshwater clamshells specifically for calcium. since I've bade the lactobacillus ALL my fermented plant extracts have used it; aside from speeding up the process I think it makes a better fpe, the microbial activity is apparent, smells more yeasty wine than just alcohol-y.

Bueno Time when you "hurt" the new leaves of your orange tree did you foliar feed the fpe or root feed?
I ask because the only damage I've know done from these kinds of "bio-fertilizers" or fermented nutrients was via foliar feed on some tomato plants, and the newest leaves curled up.

edit: by my calculations 500:1 ratio is about a tablespoon per 2 gallon reservoir (my sprayer). so when I use fpe's, if i'm using 2 different one's I should use 1/2 tablespoon of one(eggshell & vinegar calphos or lacto extracted calcium) and half tablespoon of another (fermented fruit extract). It's likely that I went over that ration and definitely this could have contributed to my "wind burn" (considering I also have foliar feeding liquid kelp, protect silica, and both fresh and powdered aloe). I think this is a case of a cosmetic problem, something that bothers the grower more than the plants growing....

I root fed with the comfrey FPE and the new growth leaves got all messed up looking on the orange tree. I thought you were using comfrey for some reason but yeah those fruits or anything with sugar content being high will ferment to alcohol I would think, even when not adding yeast there is always some naturally occuring yeasts around that could be in the ferment breaking down sugars to alcohol. There was definitely no alcohol smell with the comfrey FPE I made, havent tried any other FPEs though, seems you have tried a pretty good variety already. I experimented a little with homebrew wines using fruit juices and champagne yeast, which is why I thought about and mentioned the sugars in the fruits turning to alcohol.

 

[Seaf0ur]

I do add some water and lacto with organic agave nectar in place of molasses or sugar but only a tiny bit...
I wont this rip because your lacto had a high sugar content already

I also have my ferment-tech... large containment vessel
stage 1 is a waterlock to keep pressure up and gas release low...
stage 2 is filled with activated fishtank charcoal to kill odors from escaping gasses...

 

[Dready_jake]

Dope sea, and dope canopy avanish.

Ya judging by the info you gave it is NOT an issue it is a leaf that wasn't getting light and started diverting nutrients to other parts that were. The calcium like burns are from the calcium either bouncing elsewhere in the plant, or it's getting left to be toxic to the leaf. Depends on if you think Ca is mobile or not. Either way its a useless leaf and the plant is just disposing of it cuz its more of a hindrence than a help without light. Great looking plants!

 

[FatherEarth]

yea from the looks of your garden. I can just barely see the tiniest bit of tip starting to turn. The color and leaf shine are excellent looking IMO. Doesnt mean things are balanced completely but the plants are definitely healthy and not looking like they need life support. I wouldnt stop anything maybe lighten up on the foliar mix. Nice plants.

 

[heady blunts]

did i start this misunderstanding? sorry about that

just to stick my nose in again: FPE ends up more like a vinegar than an alcohol. bacterial dominant fermentation and all that.

but ya, generally you dont wanna pour concentrated acetic acid into your soil.

i remember coot never really felt like FPE made any sense, however, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence of extremely dilute FPE applications via both root and foliar having positive effects on plant health.

so i guess there's a lot more that we do not yet fully understand....

 

[Avinash.miles]

youre still using protekt?...

I got a bunch of agsil16h...

I premix 150grams powder per liter... makes just around 8%... almost identical to protekt but without the price tag

I get the 4pounders... and 4 pounds of agsil lasts me quite a while...

haven't actually PAID for the protekt, just have it laying around from my chem nute days. about half way thru a 5 gallon container of it.
i have a 5 gallon container about half full of protekt... so im just working thru that, when it's gone I'll switch to agsil, or perhaps to do a rock dust ferment using lacto on mica dust and perhaps some quartz dust.

just today "urban" foraged me some yellow yarrow... (can barely call it urban where I'm at)

will crumble some of this in my next fermentation and soak some for about 30 hours then feed it to plants.

also picked up 4 big stalks of aloe at the mexican grocery, will be rootfeeding aloe into the plants in both flowering and veg AND putting some on the soil for NEXT round, that veg is all about to go into.

did i start this misunderstanding? sorry about that

just to stick my nose in again: FPE ends up more like a vinegar than an alcohol. bacterial dominant fermentation and all that.

but ya, generally you dont wanna pour concentrated acetic acid into your soil.

i remember coot never really felt like FPE made any sense, however, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence of extremely dilute FPE applications via both root and foliar having positive effects on plant health.

so i guess there's a lot more that we do not yet fully understand....

duno if u started it, but i'm glad we are discussing it, because the whole FPE thing is new to me so im ALL EARS!

I've NEVER fed anything with ACETIC acid to my soil, have foliar sprayed with the toasted eggshells and vinegar calphos recipe from the unconventional farmer, but never to the soil.
LACTIC acid solutions are the only ones that have gone on my soil.
do these lactobacillus fermentations produce acetic acid?

I'm curious what all is KNOWN about these fpe's... like are the nutrients in them readily available? ( COULD fermented plant extract provide enough nutrition to plants in nuetral soil like promix? probably not im guessing.... but very curious)
i feel like you would damage plants with the acidic rootfeed BEFORE you could burn them with available nutrients in the fpe's.

Father Earth and dready jake thanks for chiming in !