The Elbow Room; Round Infinity (Rare Dankness; Sin City; CBD strains; CMH lights)

[heady blunts]

LACTIC acid solutions are the only ones that have gone on my soil.
do these lactobacillus fermentations produce acetic acid?

great question. i don't know. i was conceptualizing tandem populations in FPE with lacto b. possibly they produce different metabolic waste that is in solution with the acetic acid?

I'm curious what all is KNOWN about these fpe's... like are the nutrients in them readily available? ( COULD fermented plant extract provide enough nutrition to plants in nuetral soil like promix? probably not im guessing.... but very curious)
i feel like you would damage plants with the acidic rootfeed BEFORE you could burn them with available nutrients in the fpe's.

i totally went down that train of thought about using FPE as an organic bottled nutrient replacement. afaik many commercial bottled nutes ARE fermented plant extracts, but i do not know their fermentation procedures.

most of the nutrients in the plant material are made soluble during the fermentation process from what i understand. i use dr. duke's phytochemical and ethnobotanical database to get a rough idea of what i'll be left with in my FPE.

comfrey and nettle are the most broad spectrum and heavily concentrated green manures of all the dynamic accumulators. they sort of cover a similar spectrum---good levels of NPK, slightly weighted to N, Ca, Si, Mg, etc etc etc---so i generally only have one or the other around.

you can also use specific parts of specific plants to further refine nutrient profiles. i like to use dandelion roots for a calcium supplement (not that i often come across the need for it...). camellia flowers have a high level of P and i will occasionally do a camellia flower FPE root drench during swells and resin moments in flower.

Seaf0ur and anyone else making fermentations; do you add sugar/molasses in with plant matter and water and lacto/em1?
also, anyone using any of the Tainio products?

i never have. i just chop up whatever plant material and fill half of a food grade plastic container with a lid (i usually use water bottles). then i cover that with water leaving 1/4--1/3 of the container empty for air expansion.

give it a little shake, then cap it loosely so gas pressure can escape. if it's a snap on lid i just poke a little hole in it.

just plants and water. no molasses or anything. works great.

there's lots of native bacteria on the plant material to get the fermentation started, and the decomposing plant material acts as a food source. so everything you need is right there.

you can use it as soon in as soon as a few days, but it will continue to ferment and further concentrate for weeks or even months depending on the material. at a certain point the materials that cant be digested sink to the bottom of the container and pressure stabilizes. several weeks after that i find the concoctions generally start to denature and loose the more dramatic odors.

in terms of proper dosing i go by smell and color. you want to aim for "a light tea" color. if you're using an intense rotten shit type FPE like comfrey or nettle, dilute until it settles down to a mild grassy barn smell.

all this is as i was taught by icmag member jaykush when i first joined. i've been using FPEs with great success, mostly as foliar treatments, since then.

wild harvesting and using fresh ingredients is my favorite, i know the folks in this thread will appreciate the feeling of feeding your plants with plants FOR FREE.

when i don't have time/access, i get good quality organic herbs from a local herbal apothecary. since you don't need much it won't break the bank, but obviously it's less economical than finding or growing your own plants.

 

[Avinash.miles]

great question. i don't know. i was conceptualizing tandem populations in FPE with lacto b. possibly they produce different metabolic waste that is in solution with the acetic acid?



i totally went down that train of thought about using FPE as an organic bottled nutrient replacement. afaik many commercial bottled nutes ARE fermented plant extracts, but i do not know their fermentation procedures.

most of the nutrients in the plant material are made soluble during the fermentation process from what i understand. i use dr. duke's phytochemical and ethnobotanical database to get a rough idea of what i'll be left with in my FPE.

comfrey and nettle are the most broad spectrum and heavily concentrated green manures of all the dynamic accumulators. they sort of cover a similar spectrum---good levels of NPK, slightly weighted to N, Ca, Si, Mg, etc etc etc---so i generally only have one or the other around.

you can also use specific parts of specific plants to further refine nutrient profiles. i like to use dandelion roots for a calcium supplement (not that i often come across the need for it...). camellia flowers have a high level of P and i will occasionally do a camellia flower FPE root drench during swells and resin moments in flower.

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=24341&pictureid=869124&thumb=1]View Image[/url] [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=24341&pictureid=853792&thumb=1]View Image[/url]



i never have. i just chop up whatever plant material and fill half of a food grade plastic container with a lid (i usually use water bottles). then i cover that with water leaving 1/4--1/3 of the container empty for air expansion.

give it a little shake, then cap it loosely so gas pressure can escape. if it's a snap on lid i just poke a little hole in it.

just plants and water. no molasses or anything. works great.

there's lots of native bacteria on the plant material to get the fermentation started, and the decomposing plant material acts as a food source. so everything you need is right there.

you can use it as soon in as soon as a few days, but it will continue to ferment and further concentrate for weeks or even months depending on the material. at a certain point the materials that cant be digested sink to the bottom of the container and pressure stabilizes. several weeks after that i find the concoctions generally start to denature and loose the more dramatic odors.

in terms of proper dosing i go by smell and color. you want to aim for "a light tea" color. if you're using an intense rotten shit type FPE like comfrey or nettle, dilute until it settles down to a mild grassy barn smell.

all this is as i was taught by icmag member jaykush when i first joined. i've been using FPEs with great success, mostly as foliar treatments, since then.

wild harvesting and using fresh ingredients is my favorite, i know the folks in this thread will appreciate the feeling of feeding your plants with plants FOR FREE.

when i don't have time/access, i get good quality organic herbs from a local herbal apothecary. since you don't need much it won't break the bank, but obviously it's less economical than finding or growing your own plants.

GREAT POST, thanks alot for sharing! that dr. dukes link is a goldmine of info.
it's my understanding and experience that using the lactobacillus culture in fermented plant extracts will reduce the HORRIBLE STANK, give you more of an alcohol-y smell, then the alcohol smell subsides upon "finishing".

when you are talking about proper color, heady blunts, you are referring to the diluted nutrient solution, not the fermented plant extract concentrate, right?

also, do any of y'all use plant teas, just soaking plant matter in water for a day or 2? I mixed one up last nite with about 30 gallons of water and a bunch of that yellow yarrow chopped up coarsely.

 

[who dat is]

I'm still on the organic bottle crutch but have slowly and steadily started weening myself off. I recycle my soil every run, reamend it, and let it cook before using it again. I'd like to dabble like you guys do but time and space and all that.

 

[heady blunts]

WDI your flowers look real good so whatever you do it's working!

AM---ya when I say " the color of weak tea" I'm referring to the diluted nutrient solution and not the concentrated fermented plant extract.

I'm just staring to experiment with botanical teas and sprouted seed tea (sst). I run them both through my tea brewer to keep the dissolved oxygen levels high, I just figured that was best for what we're trying to do with them. botanical teas I bubble 24--36 hours and SST I do 6--8 hours. apparently sst can turn to acetic acid after 24 hours in the brewer, so I keep it short just to be safe.

 

[Avinash.miles]

I'm still on the organic bottle crutch but have slowly and steadily started weening myself off. I recycle my soil every run, reamend it, and let it cook before using it again. I'd like to dabble like you guys do but time and space and all that.

I'd suggest reading unconventional farmer site recipes, that's where it really all started for me. I read about fermented plant extracts on ICMAG a long time ago, and never tried it until recently, when necessity demanded me find a better way... imo the unconventional farmer is a good starting point, the recipe's have some informative comments and discussions as well.

lacto is a great start, will help you make your own compost quickly and slightly less stinky (imo). Also it's a good building block for making fermented nutrients from plant matter, fruit, any nutrient source really, like bone, oystershells, eggshells, compostables.

try out calphos recipe, (it's super easy) foliar feed going into flowering, i feel like that has made a big difference in my garden concerning health of plants going into flowering. Altho this round everything stretched for 2 weeks straight easily before showing any budset, which seems kinda long to me, but health of plant and vigor in early flowering has really shown itself in BOTH the last rounds i've used. Used it more regularly (and at higher rates, perhaps slightly too high) this round than last, and I feel like it's been worth it, made a difference.

also, for going organic, the better quality of humic source (real compost that's gone thru the hot stage, earthworm castings, black soil) will really make the difference. Similar to the calphos; I've upped my humic content in the soil over the last 2 rounds and have seen increased results both rounds. This batch of soil I'm mixing now I added lots of compost, ewc and black soil and now I'm trying to balance the mucky thick texture of humic sources with slightly more aeration (rock dusty sand, perlite) perhaps a lil more coco and peat.
Good test i learned for soil texture is to water the soil well, as if a plant were in it, like for "cooking", and take a handful of soil, squeeze it hard in your hand and open your hand and shake it. Soil should break up and crumble in hand, not stay caked together like clay. If it stays caked up, add sand, perlite or stringy coco or sphagnum peat moss. EWC, humic soil, some black soils all will cake up hard and can almost act like clay.

WDI your flowers look real good so whatever you do it's working!

AM---ya when I say " the color of weak tea" I'm referring to the diluted nutrient solution and not the concentrated fermented plant extract.

I'm just staring to experiment with botanical teas and sprouted seed tea (sst). I run them both through my tea brewer to keep the dissolved oxygen levels high, I just figured that was best for what we're trying to do with them. botanical teas I bubble 24--36 hours and SST I do 6--8 hours. apparently sst can turn to acetic acid after 24 hours in the brewer, so I keep it short just to be safe.

yhea, i like sst's have used alfalfa, wheatberries, barley, and just got some corn to sprout. Also i was given some bags of sprouted mung beans, blended them up in rainwater and fed them to plants, figured it couldn't hurt. thanks for that info about the acetic.

this botanical tea I'm making now (used half of it last nite after 24 hours of soaking) has a NICE big round airstone in the bottom of a trashcan reservoir... figured the agitation of the air bubbles would help.

 

[Jhhnn]

I hear you about soil, Miles. I was having trouble getting it right- too heavy, stayed too wet at the bottom of the pots, led to what I think was root disease from which the plants never really recovered entirely, also a calcium def.

Ace was entirely gracious, helping me with a recipe and a way of looking at it that's working great so far. Adding more coarse stuff- coarse compost, leaf mold, perlite & coco chips does wonderful things for the mix, opens it up, promotes good drainage. Cantaloupe Skunk seedlings grow explosively in 1 gal airpots & now 5 gal fabric pots w/ blumats, something else I adopted from him. I can't say enough nice things about the help he's given me. I'll go to 12/12 tomorrow, anticipate what would be a monster yield for this not so hot grower. I'll start in with some EWC tea maybe next week, but these girls don't appear to be lacking for anything.

 

[Avinash.miles]

I hear you about soil, Miles. I was having trouble getting it right- too heavy, stayed too wet at the bottom of the pots, led to what I think was root disease from which the plants never really recovered entirely, also a calcium def.

Ace was entirely gracious, helping me with a recipe and a way of looking at it that's working great so far. Adding more coarse stuff- coarse compost, leaf mold, perlite & coco chips does wonderful things for the mix, opens it up, promotes good drainage. Cantaloupe Skunk seedlings grow explosively in 1 gal airpots & now 5 gal fabric pots w/ blumats, something else I adopted from him. I can't say enough nice things about the help he's given me. I'll go to 12/12 tomorrow, anticipate what would be a monster yield for this not so hot grower. I'll start in with some EWC tea maybe next week, but these girls don't appear to be lacking for anything.

"ace" you talking Eights & Aces?
Soil texture is key, and as for your calcium deficiency....
I just bought 50lbs of oystershell meal, and am looking at most mixes saying 1 cup per cubic foot, i am curious how much would be TOO MUCH and HOW would too much calcium show itself in either (ideally both) soil structure or plant problems?

Trying to plan for next round, looking at this room currently flowering and figure how to improve upon it....
basically I'm considering using vertical lighting, trying to figure how i could do it, and arrange plants in kiddie pools around the outsides of pools, drop vert bulbs down the center of the pools, mix in the 3 600w 220 only ballasts i have... need to upgrade electric to 10 guage from 12 to fit more ballasts on each timer.
here is a sketch i threw together thinking out potential layouts for next round:

4 kiddie pools (black circles), each with a 1k w bulbs in the center, donut style.... 2 vert bulbs in econo wings (lotsa spread, better wide coverage than the parabolic/vertizontal hoods) kinda centered over the 4 kiddie pools. Off on the side will be one 600w parabolic horizontal bulb over one of my smart beds (black rectangle) that didn't get filled this round. 2 vert 600w bulbs in the "inner canopy".


looks crazy, i know.... what do y'all think? part of me wants to just stay horizontal and not open that can of vert beans... but i know there is massive potential with vertical lighting particularly yield-wise.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yes, eighths-n-aces for sure. He printed the recipe from here-

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964

To which he adds 1 cup glacial rock dust, 2 cups oatmeal, & 1/2 cup of azomite.

When the *very* fishy aroma is nearly gone, it's ready.

I mixed that with some too heavy recycled soil that I'd partially amended, added the same proportions of perlite, coco & lime mix to that stuff before mixing it all together & letting it age.

Dunno that it's "the best" but it's easily the best thing that's happened to my efforts. I suspect it'd be even better all on its own.

 

[Avinash.miles]

Yes, eighths-n-aces for sure. He printed the recipe from here-

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964

To which he adds 1 cup glacial rock dust, 2 cups oatmeal, & 1/2 cup of azomite.

When the *very* fishy aroma is nearly gone, it's ready.

I mixed that with some too heavy recycled soil that I'd partially amended, added the same proportions of perlite, coco & lime mix to that stuff before mixing it all together & letting it age.

Dunno that it's "the best" but it's easily the best thing that's happened to my efforts. I suspect it'd be even better all on its own.

great link, been reading thru that thread for several days straight now actually... on about page 120

 

[heady blunts]

AM watch out for the pH effect with the oyster shell meal. it's very basic and acts as a liming agent.

if you want more calcium without affecting ph gypsum is what is usually recommended.

EWC also contains lots of calcium from the metabolic processes of the wormies.

I've been using lots and lots of crab shell meal plus my compost is made with crustation shells so I'm getting a lot of calcium through that.

 

[Avinash.miles]

AM watch out for the pH effect with the oyster shell meal. it's very basic and acts as a liming agent.

if you want more calcium without affecting ph gypsum is what is usually recommended.

EWC also contains lots of calcium from the metabolic processes of the wormies.

I've been using lots and lots of crab shell meal plus my compost is made with crustation shells so I'm getting a lot of calcium through that.

yhea.... went light on the oystershell meal because I'm sure some of the local sand I've added has gypsum in it (found selenite formations in topsoil nearby), also added diatomaceous earth.... plus ewc, should be fine on the ca, considering I'll still be foliar feeding with calphos (made with LAB, i'm out of the vinegar stuff but have plenty of egglshells...).

separated my big batch of lacto bacillus cultures today:

^^^ Gonna screen in some of these curds into my soil and let it cook, will put the rest in my compost pile.
got real good separation on it this time, just sealed it up in 5 gallon buckets and left them in the sun for about a week.

 

[Avinash.miles]

added 2 bags of perlite (3 cu ft total) 2 bags of "clay buster" which was composted chunky woodchips & pumice mostly, also added some kelp meal and more of our "wildcrafted" crushed freshwater clamshells. I THINK I now have enough soil to fill 4 kiddie pools (not entirely full, room for mulch), AND one "smart bed". Soil is well moistened pretty evenly, and covered with tarps outside, will plant in it in about 2 weeks ( I HOPE ).

Pretty sure 3 pools will have 4 big plants each; big plants being (one of each): cherry limon, banana kush, silver grapefruit, flo, bubba kush, "purple pakistani diesel" (which is my reveg of the dieselrella x PCK), Sour Tsunami x Scotts OG, otto x scotts og, canna tsu, cookies, Dieselrella x OGkush, and twista. THEN, i have about 20 smallish (18-24 inches tall, all about to have clones took off their tops); plan on putting about 12 of those in the 4th kiddie pool and the rest in my home-made smart bed.

still unsure about switching to mostly vert... fortunately have some time to think it over and decide on the best avenue to light these plants.

 

[HatchBrew]

could you do a combo of horizontal & vert lights?

 

[Avinash.miles]

could you do a combo of horizontal & vert lights?

that's the concept....
3 horizontal lites, 6 vertone light per kiddie pool (centered) vertically. plus 2 more for "inner canopy" One horizontal light per 2 pools (centered).
just not sure about it.... would be a big step and i would probably need some metal fencing (rings around the bulbs, keep that vertical canpy from drifting into the HOT zone) or ALOT more stakes. One thing about vertical growing is plant training (staking/vertical trellis) and trimming (backsides) is very important.

also with vert there is the whole "my retina" concern.... damn brite ass bare bulbs burning holes in my eyeballs... will have to get a few pairs of good glasses.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

that's the concept....
3 horizontal lites, 6 vertone light per kiddie pool (centered) vertically. plus 2 more for "inner canopy" One horizontal light per 2 pools (centered).
just not sure about it.... would be a big step and i would probably need some metal fencing (rings around the bulbs, keep that vertical canpy from drifting into the HOT zone) or ALOT more stakes. One thing about vertical growing is plant training (staking/vertical trellis) and trimming (backsides) is very important.

also with vert there is the whole "my retina" concern.... damn brite ass bare bulbs burning holes in my eyeballs... will have to get a few pairs of good glasses.

If ur trying to max yield out in a space I think both vert and horiz can be the answer. But my gut tells me that if ur just trying to achieve the most efficient gpw, then vert alone still is better.

I really try to emphasize to people to turn the bulbs off when ur directly working in that area so not to kill ur eyes. Also u don't want to touch ur skin to a bulb. no,...no... Im starting to adopt the idea of a green light head lamp to work in the night cycle. takes a bit of getting used to but it has some great benefits. Besides the obvious easier on ur eyes, and no burn from the hot bulbs, also the environment is more comfortable. I run my rooms in the mid 80's with 70% plus rh. Its a rainforest feel. U sweat just from being in there,let alone working. So those numbers taper down during the night cycle making it a whole lot more comfortable to work in.

 

[Avinash.miles]

thanks for the safety tips MM, I'd def have to change HOW i work the room if switched to mostly vert.... maybe a set of xmas lites down low in canopy near and one up high. i like the green headlamp idea too.

I am considering putting some earthworms directly into the beds (kiddie pools) this upcoming round... what yall think? would it be a waste to get nightcrawlers (or wigglers) and put just a dozen or 2dozen per bed? also wana get a worm farm going, but putting them right in the soil is.... more direct, right? certainly more immediately useful, is my thinking.

also, anything wrong with planting some mint in my kiddie pools as a kind of cover crop? already have some growing in 1gal pots in the grow room and plenty to outside i could transplant into the beds.

 

[Photosynthesis]

Worms in your kiddie pool is not a bad idea. Paying for them may be though. Do you have access to a creek, river, lake where you can go dig up some worms? I know in Co. digging worms is not a s easy as it sounds. Hell I haven't seen an earth worm in the ground since I left the south.

Part of my garden in the south consisted of about 60 smart pots ranging from 5 gallon to 15 gallon. It was all layed out on concrete next to my raised bed garden. You would not believe the amount of worms I would get under my pots on the concrete. Hundreds upon hundreds. Small snakes too.

Not the same here in Co.

 

[who dat is]

I have no experience with using live worms in my container so can't help you there. Try it? You could always buy some red wigglers from a worm farm for cheap enough I'm sure. I haven't used mint as a cover crop but I one around the house for awhile in a container and remember it being pretty needy with water. It didn't tolerate dry soil at all and I finally chucked it for being high maintenance. I don't think they would be a good cover crop over other things but that's only a hunch. If you go with it let us know how it turns out.

 

[Siskiyou]

When I started using homemade EWC, there were almost always a few worms unintentionally potted up with plants. I noticed a definite increase in plant health when I began using my own EWC rather than commercial products. A while back, I was lagging on transplanting a few clones that were in 1 gallon pots, and noticed that only one of the clones was beginning to show stress, while the other remained healthy. The clones were identical and the soil was identical, but one plant looked horrible while the other was green and ready to go into flower. When I de-potted then plants for transplant, it was abundantly clear that the healthy plant had a few live worms in the pot, worm tunnels throughout, and fresh castings in the saucer and on the soil surface, and healthy roots. The plant that had faded hard had no worms, simply by luck of the draw, and her roots were unhealthy looking and she was very rootbound.

Since that experience I make sure to have worms in every pot. Vermicentric gardening has been very very good to me.
I love finding fresh castings around my plants and the plants love it, too.

 

[heady blunts]

like sisk said, worms in the pot are good and most of mine just came along with the ewc and the recycled soil.

you can capture wild earth worms if you live in right place. soak a piece of brown cardboard and put it on the edge of a lawn where it meets some trees or scrub. come back at dawn and you should find a bunch of those suckers near the top right under there. earthworms are not necessarily the same species as composting worms, however, and they have diff habits.

DO NOT PLANT MINT. that shit is the worst invasive beast ever. you'll never get it out short of screening out every last section of root rhizome. also it is a terrible companion plant. literally strangles the shit outta anything near by ime. in my veg garden it only gets planted in suspended containers by itself, with no chance of getting any roots in the native soil.

a good quick and cheap covercrop is buckwheat.