Terra Preta - Dark Soil - Experiment

[MrFista]

I've used chips of old pottery pipes. These do lose their edge over a couple of years in the soil so must be decaying - just slowly.

 

[h.h.]

be sure to open the windows; could get smokyyyyyyyyyyyyy

I have a ceiling vent into the third floor...Sometimes it's good, sometimes not so good.
I burn wood in the bbq. I think that char is char regardless of how it's made. Wood goes through a char state before becoming ash. Take the hot coals and drop them in a bucket of water. Go to the park and do it. Throw in some hydrocon.

 

[onegreenday]

you guys really think unfired pottery would last as long as fired pottery in the soil? unfired pottery is just clay!

Is a mud dome roof used to cook char considered "fired"
pottery. Fired on 1 side (inside) interesting:
maybe that's the key; fired on one side............

EDIT:

The char piles would have to be good size to obtain the amount of char required for the mounds even over hundereds of years of building the mounds

and there's only so much annual tree growth material for char along with all other village uses for sapplings
like bows, arrows spears,building fire's.

remember these mounds were built over the savana grass plains (very few trees)
and they had to grow their own trees on the mounds to make the char to build the mounds.

Has anybody tried making char in pottery urn?
I doubt that can be done.

The mound method with clay/mud roof seems likely with broken village pottery thrown in..........
Of course as been stated before ;they composted all their manure /urine/food scraps/grass from the plains to build the mounds/compost.

Edit: They had no metal tools to cut up /chop trees into small pieces;as they are pre-columbian civilization

 

[xmobotx]

well, reading my post it sounds like i would use terra cotta

i needed some separation between -maybe terra cotta? and -i could get unfired shards from local studios

But, one could definitely mix their TP sans pottery and pot into terra cotta pots? -why not?

seems like when i was young (70's) there was a thinking like terra cotta planters had benefits -of course, i was like 7 or 8 so?

@ onegreenday;

I believe the real TP would innoculate a TP recipe -but, the mixture would probably rely on tropical conditions to survive as true TP (which it would be if the 'recipe' were reasonably accurate)

 

[onegreenday]

right mobo. the fungi/bacteria might not survive the freeze/thaw cycles of
North America or compete with our winter hardy fungi/bacteria.

In the video above, the hopes for TP is to help solve world food production and loss
of topsoil, from slash and burn.

Not sure if TP is transferable out of the tropics though but char sure can store carbon for a long time.

 

[jaykush]

I believe the real TP would innoculate a TP recipe -but, the mixture would probably rely on tropical conditions to survive as true TP (which it would be if the 'recipe' were reasonably accurate)

the way i see it, its like sourdough. sure you can go steal some San Fransisco sour dough starter(if that's even possible lol). but when you take it home to say ummm Florida. your slowly going to loose that culture in favor to local cultures.

 

[Strains]

but when you take it home to say ummm Florida. your slowly going to loose that culture in favor to local cultures.

I would prbly be more worried about the introduced clay/char soil adapted microbes wich have had maybe up to 2000 years of evolution in the terra preta, could be stronger than the "native" microbes in any given position in this new type of soil, could it create a disaster for local ecosystems wich are not tropic?(since our own microbes are not yet adapted towards that soil chemistry), Remember biology class? Bacteria evolve many many times faster than "hígher" organsims because of their extremely fast reproduction! Wouldnt it be more ecological correct to just start offering these soil conditions to our own native microbes and let them evovle into "mimics" of the tropic fungi/bacteria and thereby be temperate(or other zones) tolerant and non invasive? I have NO clue if they will do such a thing(the TP microbes creating disaster), but i would certanly leen more towards the "offer it to your own microbes and let THEM handle it" approach! Of course i know that almost all crop plants are introduced but still, the soil is such a fundamental thing in any given area that i would be very cautios about introducing microbes from such a distance away *and from such differing soil*, imagine that i did this here in denmark, bought Amazonian terra preta ladden with very foreign microbes, i cant imagine much good comming from it other than MAYBE the original microbes in the introduced terra preta dies of and gives way for local microbes or MAYBE the new bacteria will improve the soil, theres risks and perhaps pro's but im not sure i wanna take the risks! <<-- AND if the microbes die, then why should we even buy it?

I Say make it ourselves. then it will be adapted to our own local conditions (then start inoculating soil in the same area once the microbes have adapted )

Sry for rambling

-Strains

 

[onegreenday]

Canna ships Dutch dirt to USA and it's full o microbes /bacteria.
General Hydroponics is shipping Alaska bacteria/microbes never seen by modern man
in USA. Canada ships peat with microbes down to USA.
Well you get the picture.
Have we had negative effects from using these items in gardens
across the country?

Not sure that TP microbes have the power to de-stabilize native ecosystems
in Denmark or if they survive freeze-thaw cycles and asyou say
bacteria can adapt quickly and mutate/change.

he jury is out. ...

 

[Strains]

I get where youre at and i know full well of the trade in soil. Just airing my concerns, imo the other soil types is made with well known and widely used bacteria or naturally build up soils. Terra Preta is a thousands of years old manmade soil, in an enverioment low in nutrients and high in humidity(of cousre not the TP in regards to nutrients as it changed by the intervention of man) these microbes is prbly nothing like those we get in other bought soils. The microbes in the TP might just well die of, or they may change the adjecent soil with these new "manmade" microbes, and my concern is primarely the native forests, bush, will they be compatible with these bacteria, will the trees and shrubs kill the microbes, will the microbes kill the plants or will they function in a symbiose? im more than confident that any food garden would prbly see positive effects. But before it is applied in any real scale i would like some serius studies regarding the effects of plants in the local natural ecology, and still, if the microbes/fungi do nothing but die when not in the tropics, whats the point of bying them??
hope you understand what im concerned with?
Yes... Im a Treehugger

But as i said in the other post "I have NO clue if they will do such a thing"

End of all im just saying that I, apploud the cautios approach : replicate it as close we can (without taking some and dumping it in our soils) and let our own microbes change with the new soil chemistry/composition.

-Strains

 

[onegreenday]

thanks strains I got to think on that a little.

But look at white shark & all that stuff in their;
they don't seem to be worried about competition there or in combo with native soils;

yah TP vs white shark......who shall conquer.............
I think the may all cohabitwithout trouble but I'm no expert.

PS: we do know that char increase crop production
without any other added bmo's.

PS2: 1 researcher says worms have destroyed hardwood forests in north
central usa; since they are not native; so we in virgin territory as 4 knowledge.

 

[Strains]

hmm, whiteshark? soil in US? ima gonna google it now

cant find anything besides Great white sharks, shark teeth and all other kinds of sharks, all animal though.

So my question is; What is the white shark your talking about?

 

[jaykush]

yea im a bit lost on the white shark part as well. please explain more.

 

[Morose Jessebel]

Importing soils across ecosystems, or introducing any foreign organisms from one continent to another is not smart. Which is why it's illegal. from US dept of ag
Circular
Q-330.300-1
Soil (05/2008)

What is soil?
Soil is a mixture of inorganic and organic materials, when the organic materials
are unidentifiable plant and/or animal parts. This mixture can support biological
activity and therefore carry and introduce harmful pests or diseases. Examples
of soil are: Topsoil, forest litter, wood or plant compost, humus, and earthworm
castings.

What is not soil?
Materials free of organic matter, such as: pure sand, clay (latarites, bentanite,
china clay, attapulgite, tierrafino, etc.), talc, rocks, volcanic pumice, chalk, salt,
iron ore and gravel. These materials must be mined or collected so they are free
of organic material, such as roots, grasses, or leaf litter.
Fertilizers that contain minerals, bone meal, and crushed grain are not soil.
However grains in the mix mj says hello may be regulated if they lack processing that prevents
sprouting. Authorities for regulating imported grains are - corn relatives (CFR
319. 24 & 41), rice relatives (CFR 319.55) and wheat relatives (CFR 319.59).
What has or may have organic matter in it and may be considered soil, but PPQ
has determined is exempt from USDA soil regulations?
The following items are exempt:
• Peat, cosmetic mud and other mud products from fresh water estuaries or
the earth’s upper surface, if processed to a uniform consistency, and free
of plant parts or seeds.
• Volcanic rock, pumice, geologic samples, drilling cores, or mud, if mined
so it is free of organic material.
• Any sediment, mud, or rock from salt water oceans of the earth.
NOTE: All shipments may be inspected at a US port to identify the material and
verify it is free of pests and prohibited contaminants. A shipment may be refused
entry or require treatment based upon inspection findings.
What are the common treatments or conditions that allow soil to move into and
through the US?
Soil must move in leak-proof container that can withstand shipping. Soil must be treated before disposal or further use in the US. Two treatments are authorized for soil: (1) Dry heat at 250o F. for at least two hours, (2) Steam heat at the same temperature for 30 minutes with 15" pressure.
Other treatments and conditions maybe required or approved such as,
destructive analysis, acid washing, irradiation, and boiling. Under facility
conditions, small amounts of soil in water may be flushed into sewage drains, if
the water is processed in a tertiary treatment system, (such as a municipal
sewage system).

 

[Strains]

Isnt that law for cross continent contamination and not for soil from canada and such?
Cross continent "pollution" of microbes was exactly my concern So i guess its settled then? make our own Im so looking forward to spring and getting my hands in the dirt. winter is sooo boring here, ive been stuck at home for a week or so now cuz of snow and freezing...

On to TP, im not a user of peat moss (called spaghnum in DK) since its destroying the bogs here and in many countries where its "mined". We now import most of our peat from poland, and its destroying biodiversity and is not sustainable so im looking for alternatives for making a huge batch of soil, i know of coco, but im having trouble finding any organic source, any alternatives cuz im not about to order it from some country and have it shipped?and I think it will be hard to get 4 raised beds filled with charcoal and cocco without costs being prohibitive! I have a source of heat threated free compost, but its very high in nutrients, itll kill almost any plant the first season, and many the next. you think the charcoal might offset this by "sucking" up some of the nutrients?

Sry for all the Q's its just that im starting to get a grip of the organic side of stuff and also into permaculture, its just... i havent done anything but reading about it yet and i realy want this to work, so im planning for spring

 

[Morose Jessebel]

glad you asked!

What locations are not regulated?
Most parts of Canada. However, soil from Alberta: a farm unit and associated land located near the municipality of Fort Saskatchewan: and a farm unit and associated land located near the municipality of Spruce Grove, British Columbia: that portion of the Municipality of Central Saanich on Vancouver Island, east of the West Saanich Road, Newfoundland and Labrador: the entire island of Newfoundland and Quebec: the municipality of Saint-Amable, is regulated. (Title 7 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 330.300).


Soil is regulated from what locations?
• All foreign sources, including Hawaii, Guam, Puerto Rico, and the US
Virgin Islands.
• Parts of US States (under CFR 301 regulations and quarantines). For
more information on which domestic soils are regulated, contact the local
Plant Protection and Crazy Composer Narcissism Quarantine (PPCCNQ) office, the PPCCNQ Permits, Registrations, and Imports staff in Riverdale, Maryland at Area Code (301)
734-8645; fax (301) 734-5786 or the State agricultural officials. (Title 7 of
the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 330.300).
the West Saanich Road, Newfoundland and Labrador: the entire island of Newfoundland and Quebec: the municipality of Saint-Amable, is regulated. (Title 7 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 330.300).

 

[xmobotx]

bummer that we can't legally find the answers to these questions

or, any imported TP soil would arrive essentially inert for our purposes - which makes a good case for not depleting the natural TP plots

I find I am in complete agreement w/ strains

the charcoal has it's obvious benefits - so my plan is to add charcoal to my compost pile for introduction to my outdoor veggie gardens

However, it would be interesting to compend some possible recipes for container gardening - and it seems microbe rich ingredients like peat and compost would help to represent more accurate application of the TP concept

similarly, i intend to introduce some unfired pottery shards - if nothing else to a test region

starting to kinda yearn for spring

 

[Morose Jessebel]

i think i just found you the legal answer, from the dept. of agriculture. the circular is a year old, but i'm sure the rule hasn't changed. i guess you could take it to the supreme court if you wanted to.

I am glad for this law (rule actually, the law gives ag the power to make it based on administrative findings). rooted plants, soils, seeds, and any other biologicals need to stay on the continent of origin. unintended consequences are the worst kind. it's not a country issue. look above, you can't bring soil from hawaii to the continent, for good reason. did anyone predict asian carp would be so devastating? if your TP is still alive, does it contain eggs of a devastating pest with no north american predator?

 

[onegreenday]

yea im a bit lost on the white shark part as well. please explain more.

my goof. I meant Great White (shark's in my head) sorry.

 

[onegreenday]

thanks Jessebel.

That's going to kill their plan to export TP worlldwide
and save the world's agriculture; if you can't tranfer the TP BMO's.

They bring dutch/german peat over here.
Don't think the biocanna is sterilzed.

 

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