Teaming with Microbes: The Organic Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web

[xmobotx]

Botany of Desire based on the book with the same title by Michael Pollan (author of The Omnivore's Dilemma)

not this is it?

linky

 

[xmobotx]

yeah it ran on pbs~

It was shown on PBS in our area. ~

OIC

 

[secondtry]

Wow missed 2ndtry's rant on my post. Ok I see they aren't compost experts now, but sending your compost to be tested for $100? lol Tell that to the poor folks in the Detroit Comm gardens just trying to get a tomato to come out of the ground.

You don't have to get it tested, but it's the best way, and what's a $100? A few nights out drinking, a 1/4 of herb, etc; IMO it's well wroth the cost.

Also Cornell University states that a compost pile is never supposed to reah more that 150 F or organisms die.

Yea I emailed them about that a while ago maybe fell on deaf ears. That is outdated info and besides, a majority of the thermophilic microbes don't die, they become dormant. Once the temps go back to thermophilic levels they once again become active, and at the point mesophilic microbes also start to come back (except for human pathogen type microbes which do die). The genus of microbes most responsible for breaking down compost (and those which also break down "lignocellulosic" cell walls) is Bacillus spp., that genus is also the ones most responsible for breaking down organic matter in the hyperthermophilic range.

Not all compost will naturally reach the hyperthermophilic range, but my point is if the compost does its fine. I adjust my compost C:N ratio to reflect the actual amount of bioavailable carbon (link) thus my piles heat up more because I calculate the real amout of C the microbes can easily use, thus the relative C:N ratio is lower which means slightly more N and slightly higher temps into the hyperthermophilic range. The Luebke's also make a big deal out of this, by that I mean they try to keep the temps in the thermophilic range by turning everyday. But the main reason professional composters try to keep it in the thermophilic range is to make compost as fast as possible, allowing it to reach the hyperthermopilic rage slows down the composting process a bit (a few days to a week) but it also provides better compost in the end.

You can Google for all this info, use Google Scholar (link), NOT regular Google.

HTH

 

[secondtry]

RE: protozoa soup:

It's not needed, ACT should have plenty of protozoa if it's made correctly. But, if one wants to make so-called protozoa soup the easiest and best way is to buy some "timothy hay" from the pet store (the kind the is used to feed rabbits) and put it into a container with pond water or slow moving stream water and aerate for a couple of days. That's about it; however, one should not need to do this as all the protozoa one needs can come from ACT and from naturally occurring microbial loop in soil or soilless media like Promix, etc.

I have not done this for years, but there is much info on this process online.

HTH

 

[mad librettist]

what about the mesophilic organisms the book claims are the ones we are actually worried about. The gist of it, as I read, is that we want them to become active again after the hot stage, and not prolong the hot stage too much, and the soil binding happens mostly in the mesophilic stage.

let's look at the actual book, shall we?
p.133

this is a chapter, not a book on composting

p. 135

never let a pile get over 155 F as this will start to burn off carbon

I see no mention of protecting the microbes.

2ndtry, you have not read the book, it's clear. If we need corrections we need them from someone informed on the latest who has read the book. It's important to get the corrections, but let's correct real stuff. (why read it if I already know it's wrong: not a a good reason)

or clarification if that's what you meant. but please, pretty please, let's keep any partisanship and personal grudges out of this. Sorry Dr. Ingham insulted you by telling you to learn how to read, but Jeff did nothing wrong. He used the most well-known and informed (there's a balance, hey!) person he could to act as intellectual backstop. Let's not obsess, and just read the book and comment on the contents of the book.

TY.

 

[Flying Goat]

Interesting thread, gentlemen!

I compost & grow our food organically. Being a patient with fibromyalgia & the digestive upsets that come with it, I have severe sensitivity to all the chemicals used in growing commercial produce...

My manures come from my goats & donkey... a bit from the chickens... Interestingly, all of these receive "treats" of fan leaves when the harvest is in... So, ultimately, my weed ends up fertilizing my weed - complete with added microbes from my animals' digestive systems...

I compost EVERYTHING - including my egg shells, dryer lint (winter only), & hair from trimming the dogs & my family's heads (great for keeping slugs outta the compost).

<ok, back to lurking>

 

[secondtry]

what about the mesophilic organisms the book claims are the ones we are actually worried about.

Most of the 'good guys' become dormant, and those that die off will re-populate the pile once it cools down.

The gist of it, as I read, is that we want them to become active again after the hot stage, and not prolong the hot stage too much, and the soil binding happens mostly in the mesophilic stage.

The reason people state the thermophilic stage only needs to be 2-3 days is to kill human pathogens, not for the best compost. I am not sure what you mean by "soil binding", but if you mean lignin to humus that starts in the thermophilic stage, then into hyperthermophilic stage and then continues into the mesophilic stage where for exmaple actinobacteria are common microbes which assist there.

let's look at the actual book, shall we?

this is a chapter, not a book on composting

Which is why I suggested the corrections I did and why I suggested the Rodale book. The problem is lots of people like to use TWM as a book for info on composting, to me; both Jeff and Wayne should have left out the compost section, or written it correctly...

let's look at the actual book, shall we?

never let a pile get over 155 F as this will start to burn off carbon

I am not sure what they mean by that statement as it's not correct to use "burn off", I assume they actually mean burn, and yes, that can happen, but only is the pile is not properly moist all the time (which as I pointed out TWM doesn’t mention how 46-65% moisture content NEEDS to be maintained), and using a compost fleece holds much moisture which prevents that burning (i.e., cooking) of OM. If the pile gets too hot and dry the OM will turn white and be frail, that is, it's burnt; but that is easily to avoid with proper turning and watering. Did you search Google Scholar like I suggested? I have at least 6 studies on this very topic at home...

I see no mention of protecting the microbes.

What do you mean, by them going dormant? Well that cuz' Jeff and Wayne don't really know about composting (as I pointed out). This topic of hyperthermophilic stage is not new but it's not commonly known either because no one has yet to put it in a book, I know about it because I read journal articles all the time And my own composting expensive proves it true...

2ndtry, you have not read the book, it's clear.

Yes I have, I already stated that, I read it like a year ago. How else could I quote word for word from it like I did?

If we need corrections we need them from someone informed on the latest who has read the book. It's important to get the corrections, but let's correct real stuff. (why read it if I already know it's wrong: not a a good reason)

See my previous sentences, I read the book long before you guys/gals, and I know what I am writing about. Why is that so many people think if it's in a book it MUST be true? I have the book right here in front of me and I would like it if TWM had reverences too!!!

Published in 2006 by Timer Press, Inc.

Fourth Printing 2008

Printed in China

ISBN-13:978-0-88192-77-1

...is that proof enough I have it right in front of me

or clarification if that's what you meant. but please, pretty please, let's keep any partisanship and personal grudges out of this.

It's NOT about grudges, it's about getting the CORRECT info out, which I am sorry to say TWM does a very poor job of in the compost section and the part about protozoa soup shouldn't be there either IMO.

He used the most well-known and informed (there's a balance, hey!) person he could to act as intellectual backstop. Let's not obsess, and just read the book and comment on the contents of the book.

ALL my comments, save how I compost as was requested by Nug-NUG have been on the book! What more do you want of me, blood?

 

[mad librettist]

What do you mean, by them going dormant? Well that cuz' Jeff and Wayne don't really know about composting (as I pointed out). This topic of hyperthermophilic stage is not new but it's not commonly known either because no one has yet to put it in a book, I know about it because I read journal articles all the time And my own composting expensive proves it true...

they mention it actually.

citations please.

 

[ixnay007]

Damnit you guys.

Didn't you take debate in high school?

Something about the internet and virtual anonymity makes people a lot less considerate (I'm not pointing fingers), maybe it's because we're not hearing the other person's words, or seeing their face..

 

[mad librettist]

oh it's not an insult. I was thinking more of a song. let me edit it.

I do want to know the errors. I'm serious. If there are incorrect statements, I am sure they are in the minority, and it would be awesome if 2ndtry helped out. seems like that's his intention, so great! then the rest of us can pass it around for everybody!

 

[xmobotx]

not so much incorrect as incomplete

but, the focus of the book is laypeople who won't necessarily understand complex microbial relationships (or bother w/ a thermometer in their pile)

i would definitely prefer to see people convert to rotting their yard wastes over burning or hauling to the dump - even if they don't do it the best fastest way

 

[Microbeman]

I noticed a post earler asking for info regarding microbe ID. If you look here; http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Microbe_Identification you will find two PDFs I created plus many other resources. 200X and 400X magnification is required to observe soil microbes.

It has been over a year since I read Teaming... but one thing I 'think' I noted was that Jeff and Wayne seemed to hold to the Ingham stance on compost in that it is more of a microbial creative process rather than a degradation/digestive process. If you are using compost for ACT or raw OM topdressing this is okay but if you are after high quality humus-stable [sic] compost which can be stored long term and mixed 'into' soil/media then I am in the school behind the more finished degraded compost. (if I'm remembering incorrectly give me a slap)

 

[mad librettist]

thanks microbeman that's helpful


where would you put vermicast in there?

 

[xmobotx]

you know, that's a fine line thing MM that you only just brought to my attention

compost finished enough to use in container gardening

in the past i have always used EWC specifically as the soil ammendment and compost for mulch and tea (or, of course outside in the garden)

 

[Nicedreamz]

I really want to start a compost pile concerned about neighbors complaining about smell......of course id rather them smell compost than the other smell!

 

[xmobotx]

if the compost smells bad at all, you're doing it wrong

if it smells bad to your neighbors, you're doing it waaaaaay wrong

i have to get my face about a foot or 2 away to smell the pile. early on it will smell like cut grass and leaves or what you put into it. but i have never noticed that manure in a pile contributes to bad manure smell - the pile seems to absorb it (?)

compost smells "earthy"

 

[Microbeman]

Vermicompost-cast can be uncompletely digested just like therma-compost but pure castings or completely digested vermicompost should be humus-like or have humus content. As I've stated previously I garner a high-humus [sic] vermicompost by forcing/encouraging worms to redigest their castings.

Nicedreamz; composting requires very little to no manure so odors are of no concern.

 

[mad librettist]

yeah MM you have me using castings as bedding mostly.

 

[xmobotx]

as in "seed bed?"

i sprinkle ewc onto newly planted seed beds (even as a means of covering smaller seeds -flowers, carrots, like)

 

[mad librettist]

that too. actually I put the seed on the soil then cover with the castings. surface sown seeds I put the castings down first.

I'm referring to using the castings from one bin as the bedding in another.