Tea Article

[Bullfrog44]

Thanks mad. When it comes time for planting can I just plant in the clover? I am trying a no till approach this year.

 

[StrapAssassin42]

Thats what i would do! I think i'm gona try clover as mulch in my veggie garden this year.

 

[Bullfrog44]

My veggies and canna are in the same garden, so I will be putting a cover crop on the entire area I guess. Does that mean no more tan bark? Yes!

 

[h.h.]

http://www.bountifulgardens.org/prodinfo.asp?number=MCO-6300

 

[Microbeman]

plenty of time

crimson clover and chickweed

the chickweed will be not cheap, but you don't need a lot. just a few little packets in some choice areas.

crimson clover is not expensive at all. just get a 5lb bag and you are set

Bear in mind that crimson clover is an annual and red clover is a perennial and has pretty much the same attributes.

 

[Microbeman]

This is the result of a large glossy con job pulled off by the manufacturers of the vortex brewer [if indeed that is what they are using]. They have convinced many hydro stores that they get superior results running perpetual brews, partially emptied through sales, then topped up. They have no science behind these assertions, just a bunch of dopey testimonials. Of course if one goes from not using any CT to using some, they will report good results but these will not be optimal unless the shop owners are checking each batch with a microscope. The biofilm build up is not the bad thing. What about the poor guy who purchases a gallon right after new ingredients are added? When new compost and feedstock or water is added to top up a running brew there is always a transition time, where the microbes go 'slack' or dormant for a period before they begin utilizing the new foods or until the O2 comes back up.

Furthermore to show how scientifically confused the manufacturers of these brewers are;
Here is their advertising blurb they send out in a colorful email;




They are telling everyone that perpetual brews in their brewers are superior then on their website they state the following;




It is moneyass stuff like this which could give ACT a bad name.

As a follow up to this post;

Some use compost tea personally, some professionally and some like myself are invested in research and teaching but also derive some income from related products or services.

There have been a variety of ACT machines over the years, most of them having their unique qualities and features. Before I undertook to put on the market, what tested out for me to be an affordable and efficient (but admittedly ugly) ACT airlift bioreactor, I designed and we built a replica (or semblance) of every other brewer design which I knew of. We tried these different machines on our operating farm. I went into debt acquiring some decent microscopes and testing equipment so I would not be running blind.

Thankfully that debt educated me and opened my eyes wider than I expected. I learned that it is as simple as running a machine until one can see the appropriate organisms in approximately correct ratios; bacteria/archaea, flagellates & fungal hyphae. If one looks back at the old writings of the Raoul & Annie France it is apparently not that different from what they saw in healthy soil (humus as they called it).

We built brewers ranging in size from 2 liters to 1200 gallons. We tested them for temperature, dissolved oxygen (DO2), pH, EC/TDS and most importantly microbial population; density & diversity recorded to hard drive for comparison.

I came up with my present design so it could be shipped cheaply and used by a small farm or commercial operation by providing their own standard size barrel. I backed up the efficiency by posting video clips of the microbes extracted and multiplied.

I communicated with many other manufacturers and practitioners. Many of us had our differences and little squabbles and someone might state ‘my brewer does such and such’ but over all there was a camaraderie and we learned from each other. One well known manufacturer was always willing to lend a hand, got me a great deal on my 95 CFM pump for our 1200 gallon airlift brewer and he was always encouraging.

As many say frequently, it is hard to make bad ACT, you can just make it better. In that tenor the brewers on the market sunk or swam based on their merits.

Publicly, we did not run each other’s machines down, at least not that I really noticed. It seems now that has changed abruptly. Machine manufacturers/marketers are using flashy ads with barely clad women, reminiscent of the Advanced Nutrients campaign which garnered millions for the owners but seemingly bilked ordinary people of their money as they shelled out huge amounts for liquid nutrients which they could buy and mix themselves for pennies. Now this mindset is being applied to the ACT and microbial craze.

Ads are sent out to hydro stores which are already, ‘in many situations’ charging more than they should. These ads instruct how they can price gouge even more by garnering a 1000% profit selling compost tea to their customers. Part of the sales pitch includes schmaltzy testimonials from people who have been using the tea. You know how those go.
“I neva saw such green grass until I used Uncle Jim’s grass juice!!!”

One fortunate (but unfortunate) attribute of ACT is that it does produce good results even if poorly made and overpriced, especially with the uninitiated.

I recently read ads distributed about the vortex brewers and read through their webpage. I’ve posted a PDF so you can read for yourself. What really jumped out at me was their willingness to criticize other peoples’ products in their apparent effort to win the mighty dollar.

Here is a quote;

“All other brewers don't do anything that a bucket with an airstone cannot do, meaning you are paying for a fancy mold and maybe convenience and a larger bucket. They don't circulate, they agitate.”

And another;

“The question must be asked – why do I need to buy a compost tea brewer? Good question…with many answers.

The short answer is, you don’t. Upon comparison of the brewers on the market it is obvious that there is not a unit other than the Vortex Brewer™ that performs a function that a bucket and an airstone cannot perform. This means you are paying for a fancy mold, and maybe a larger bucket than you can buy at a Big Box store. The Vortex Brewer™ separates itself form the rest by performing a deliberate function = perpetual implosive vortexial flow.”

“If you have already investigated compost tea units, you may have noticed that there is very little difference in them.”

Because my ACT bioreactor is included in ‘All other brewers’ and because there is a lie as pertaining to my machine “They don't circulate, they agitate.”, I feel justified in composing a response to all this clutter.

First of all let us be clear. The accepted definition, so far for ACT is a liquid/water medium which consists of certain groups of microorganisms, the main purpose of which is to cycle nutrients and/or populate leaf surfaces. The one thing I learned about this in all my research is the true simplicity involved in seeing with a microscope the three groups we are concerned with; bacteria/archaea, flagellates (& naked amoebae) and fungal hyphae. That’s it in a nutshell.

I figure that at this stage of the game, if one is making big talk about their brewers and amendments they should be showing these microbes.

Second of all ‘who’ has the fancy mold????

A quote from the vortex ad;

“The totally unimpeded circulation creates an absolutely perfect environment for growing microbes to extraordinarily high concentrations.”

Okay, then show them. Simple.

But on the other hand they say one does not really need the microbes and they are not necessarily in great numbers in the hydro store perpetual brew.

“When stores distribute tea out of a perpetual brew from a Vortex Brewer they are working with growers who are many times not really trying to set up a soil food web.”

“No doubt, one of the major benefits is the fact that the solution is alive. But as we all know, it is a perfect plant food as well, as Nature intended. As I have mentioned, we encourage retail stores and nurseries to brew perpetually with our Vortex Brewers. Our approach is not necessarily to create a perfectly replicable tea, but to ensure that stores can hand their customers a living solution (something they cannot buy from a shelf) and reduce the maintenance of the unit in the store. We’re not going to ask you to bottle it, buy a refrigerator, organize a pick up day, and hope people show up.”

~Evan Folds~ from another forum

I believe there is a theory that the nutrients produced by the microbial interaction remain in solution in the tea. Interesting and perhaps possible but not supported by evidence. The bit of testing I had done showed extreme minimal macronutrients.

This is in keeping with what they recommend in the PDF posted:

“What if people don't show up? You're forced to pour it down the drain, or take payment up front and hope you generate enough people to justify your time, resources, and energy. The Vortex Brewer operates perpetually by adding inputs at the end of each day, based on the amount of water you put into the unit daily. You can go months without cleaning the unit.”

And from their website;

“For growers using compost tea daily or for garden stores/nurseries looking to distribute compost tea perpetually, do the following. Start your brew following the below recipes. As you use or distribute compost tea throughout the day, top off with clean water. At the end of each day, simply re-fresh the Vortex Brewer™ with Genesis Compound, Earth Tonic, & Food Source and you will be ready for tomorrow. After the brew has been started, the microbes are already at a high reproductive capacity, so the end of day inputs are simply a boost to the current biological situation. Experiment with what formula works best for you. Start by using half of the below recipe amounts and go from there. This process is easier in a VB60 because you will not need to fill the Vortex Brewer™ to allow circulation.”

I’d be interested in seeing the notes or data which show what microbial group which the customer who picks his tea up at the end or beginning of the day might be. Do we really believe this has been tracked? Maybe….one never knows for sure. Also one wonders about their instructions for dispelling chlorine from the topped up water.

But also from the website it says;

"It is important to utilize microbes before they hit their reproductive peak. You want to deliver them hungry, which is why we recommend brewing for no longer than 24 hours. If you are using it in a retail store, make sure to keep the concentration below 600ppm so as not to burn plants after handing it out."

“Brew Time
Because the Vortex Brewer™ actively circulates the solution using the induction of air, and due to the vortex sucking in higher amounts of air relative to other brewers, it is possible to brew compost tea faster than other units. Brew ingredients for at least 12 hours, but no longer than 24, if possible. To be clear, there is never a time when the solution is "bad", these are only better/best recommendations. We are in the process of fine tuning these recommendations, but generally the solution should be used when the microbes are "hungry", before they have reached their reproductive peak.”

http://www.progressearth.com/the_vortex_brewer.htm

Okay, perpetually but not longer than 24 hours. Are you getting dizzy yet? Hold on there’s more.

So far we have heard that their marvelous machine produces the highest densities of microorganisms ever seen in an ACT machine and then we’ve heard that microbes are not that important. Well just in case you are considering the alternative liquid compost extractor (LCE), they’ve got some dirt they can sling at the folks who sell those as well.

From the PDF;

“Compost Tea is far better than Compost Extractors
The AACT method (Actively Aerated Compost Tea) must be distinguished from compost “extractors”. You may have seen this idea expressed in liquid compost collectors on the bottom of compost bins or worm farms and many units on the market being sold as “compost tea” machines.
This is misleading, let’s make the distinction.
Extractors do exactly what they say, they extract. They don’t grow microbes. Using microbes in any capacity is beneficial, but suffice it to say that microbes hold on really tight. When you brush your teeth in the morning, you’re brushing off microbes, and you don’t get all of them.
The Vortex Brewer™ can be used as a batch extractor, but it is much more effective and efficient to grow the populations of microbes rather than extract them. It may take a bit longer, but it’s worth the wait.”

This simply expresses their ignorance of LCE and should really be an embarrassment. I would like to know, though, how their machine can be used as an extractor.

Now we’ve heard that the microbes are important after all (again) but still cannot find any supportive data.

When reading through the PDF, I encountered so much shlock and it is really tempting to go through it point by point to show that it not only contradicts scientific thought and process but also common sense. It is filled with sensible sounding metaphors which are (to me) in fact not sensible. It is filled with buzz words and phrases like potentization, subtle energies and resonance.

There is one statement I must touch upon or else bury my head in the sand. Living entities have nothing to do with the second law of thermodynamics regarding entropy so what is stated has no meaning (from my understanding).

On their website, they wish to take a swipe at those who have actually done some scientific research by stating;

“Thoughts on Microbes
Most everything biological is still yet to be discovered, there is still much to learn. Here are some ideas to keep in mind when evaluating compost tea brewing units and products:
 If HUGE numbers are claimed, keep in mind that up to 500,000 bacteria can fit in the period of the exclamation point a the end of this sentence! In other words, "billions of organisms" can be accomplished in a couple tablespoons of good compost = not impressive. There's another universe down there!
 If large diversities are claimed, ask if they have done DNA testing...diversity cannot be verified visually with any certainty. The best indication of diversity is in the performance of the product...period.
 MOST IMPORTANTLY: Do not be swooned by biological testing that shows amounts of microbes present. Strength and ability of organism cannot be seen under a microscope. For instance, you may be the best soccer player (Nitrogen cycler) on Earth, but this cannot be seen microscopically. Impress yourself with what the microbes do in living systems (see PE Product Performance page)...that's what counts. “

Ah the soccer player metaphor. Probably my favorite. The unfortunate ignorance displayed here is the lack of knowledge or acceptance that the diversity we are talking about here is between bacteria/archaea, flagellates, naked amoebae, testate amoebae, ciliates, fungal hyphae, rotifers and the odd nematode (in ACT). This does not require DNA testing. This is as easy as using binoculars to see what type of birds are in your backyard.

Of course there are all kinds of things undiscovered about soil microbes but for now we are using some of the things which have been discovered.

Do you think they would be preaching this stuff if they had some of the on again off again microbes to show?

If you wish to talk about your machine’s ability to restructure water or some other unknowns, that is completely open and go for it. However, if you want to begin talking about basic ACT microbe multiplication, you’ve walked into my pasture (at present) and if you say things like “They don't circulate, they agitate” without doing your homework, expect to be taken up on your claims. You can try the usual; ‘That happens in a lab and not in the field’ except that I did my work and research on a farm.

One more point before I close this long rambling rant.

This is from the PDF if I’m still on track;

“Due to the force of circulation in the Vortex Brewer™ colloidal or soluble inputs will not build up and become anaerobic like in other units. The circulation keeps the brewer clean as a stream.”

Here is a video of their 60 gallon, I believe, in action. If I had a cone bottom brewer going that slow, I’d be back at the drawing board. BTW you can reduce foam just as effectively with fish hydrolysate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHMaYCdgtAw&feature=player_embedded#!

Well I could not post the 1.04 MB PDF because of the 1MB limit here. I did post it on a couple other forums, you could look for.

 

[StrapAssassin42]

Nice video!.... they call that a vortex! lmao that's a slowly circling pool at best.

There is no way that is being mixed properly...what a joke! oh yeah, microbes aren't that important so it doesn't need to be mixed well! WTF!!

I wonder how many David Beckhams they got spinning around in there!!

 

[Microbeman]

How to tell a good 'tea'

How to tell a good 'tea'

There are many shops selling ACT these days and this can be good or not so good. I posted the following elsewhere and thought I'd post it here as well.

If someone is selling compost tea, especially if they claim to follow it with a microscope, they should be able to show you something similar to the following.

The following clips demonstrate the changes that an aerated compost tea (ACT) goes through over time. Please excuse my unusual form of narration. Note that the following ‘brews’ were all made using simple ingredients as itemized on my webpage (good finished but fresh vermicompost at 2.38%, black strap molasses at 0.50%, fish hydrolysate at 0.063%, feed grade kelpmeal [not necessary!] at less than 0.25%, soft rock phosphate [not necessary!] at 0.063%) Lately I have been making ACT successfully using only vermicompost and molasses.

First at 18 hours, the early stages of a brew, normally we see the development/division of bacteria/archaea and the growth of fungal hyphae. If one is seeking a fungal brew for some reason, this is the time to use it.
http://microbeorganics.com/18hrs2vcfree.wmv

In the following clip I identify an amoeba as a naked type but in retrospect it may be an active testate amoeba.
http://microbeorganics.com/18hrs3vcfree.wmv

Usually some time between 24 and 40 hours flagellates and/or naked amoebae excyst (hatch out) and begin dividing every 2 to 4 hours so the population increases rapidly. Flagellates are the small globe-like creatures moving about. They are larger than bacteria/archaea but normally smaller than ciliates. It is the flagellates in ACT which are mainly responsible for cycling nutrients to your plants. As they eat bacteria/archaea they excrete ionic (available) form nutrients to the roots. Amoebae and ciliates also contribute to this but too many ciliates can be a sign that there may be an abundance of anaerobic bacteria and the ‘brew’ is on its way (or has gone) downhill.
http://microbeorganics.com/36hrsvcfree.wmv

At 42 hours we still have a good ‘brew’ and this is often the stage I usually apply it at but I recommend 36 hours to folks who do not use a microscope. You can see that ciliates have come to life by the presence of the beautiful vorticella.
http://microbeorganics.com/42hrsvcfree.wmv

Finally, at 60 hours takes a very efficient machine and good monitoring with microscope and O2 meter to ensure good quality. Although it is not stressed in the narration one can see the increasing presence of ciliates whizzing around out of focus. These are normally larger and faster than flagellates and can indicate the presence of too many anaerobic bacteria. Usually if the ‘brew’ is continued on past this point it degrades rapidly, with ciliates and anaerobic bacteria dominating.
http://microbeorganics.com/60hrsvcfree.wmv

As long as there are much greater numbers of flagellates and/or naked (active) amoebae than ciliates there is no worry because ciliates also cycle nutrients. It is possible to run a perpetual ‘brew’ but there will always be a down cycle where undesirable organisms dominate until the new [vermi]compost and foodstock kicks in (starts being consumed and the correct microbial groups begin multiplying again) and homeostasis is established. I have seen this down cycle persist for at least 24 hours.

Shops selling from a perpetual brew:
If one is selling tea to customers from a perpetual ‘brew’, how do you decide which customer(s) gets the inferior ‘tea’. There are people who did the testing of perpetual brews a number of years ago and assuming that ACT is about achieving a consortium of diverse nutrient cycling microorganisms, they concluded there is greater efficacy achieved by starting a new ‘brew’ each time.

Those who advocate the perpetual brew support their method by alluding to some mysterious hidden diversity which one can not know about without DNA testing. This is complicating the use of ACT and [vermi]compost far beyond its simple form and use within the microbial nutrient loop. They are confusing bacteria and archaea which fix nitrogen (and other nutrients) with the nutrient cycling previously described, wherein nutrients are cycled by protozoa feasting on bacteria/archaea and excreting bioavailable nutrients taken up by roots. The diversity we are looking for are bacteria/archaea and flagellates (and amoebae) mainly. Fungal hyphae provides an ongoing food resource, binds soil aggregates, provides microbial pathways, degrades organic matter and increases moisture and O2 holding capacity. There is no mystery here, no specialty agents (although there could be) and it is as easy to see that diversity, with a microscope as it is looking for robins, sparrows and crows in your back yard with binoculars.

The folks who are perpetuating this mystery bunk to advocate perpetual brews, as far as I can tell, do so to line their pockets. They do not appear to back up their statements with data and criticize other ‘brewer’ sellers who do. They entice hydro shop owners by illustrating how they can price gouge their customers. Amusingly they also state on their site that one should not ‘brew’ beyond 24 hours because the microbes must be applied hungry…..Yikes!

 

[schwagg]

fantastic stuff MM !!!

 

[Dawn Patrol]

Awesome post MM, thanks for the video, it makes looking at my brews much more meaningful. I've looked at lots of slides of my brews through my microscope and I'm not always sure what I'm seeing. This sure helped me out!

 

[trichrider]

yawn...

man that was a long read. well worth it though. thank you.

gonna go smoke a phat one and ease the kink out my neck.

amoeba tea...flake of straw, couple gallons water, let sit...add after ACT to cycle them nutrients...

 

[elmanito]

Very good info thnx

MM
What's your opinion about using EWC combined with green compost and manure compost??

Namaste

 

[Microbeman]

yawn...

man that was a long read. well worth it though. thank you.

gonna go smoke a phat one and ease the kink out my neck.

amoeba tea...flake of straw, couple gallons water, let sit...add after ACT to cycle them nutrients...

Better to put the straw in at the beginning of the brew so the protozoa grow up with the other organisms, forming a consortium. How do you know you are getting amoebae and not ciliates? Microscope?

 

[Microbeman]

Very good info thnx

MM
What's your opinion about using EWC combined with green compost and manure compost??

Namaste

Nothing wrong with that, provided it is truly composted.

 

[elmanito]

Nothing wrong with that, provided it is truly composted.

Thnx and what about Alfalfa as additive in compost tea.

Namaste

 

[MrSterling]

Ah, I see the last post is almost the same question as mine. I've been doing some reading about alfalfa tea and triacontanol. It's sounding as simple as soaking some alfalfa pellets for 24 hours and then using it as a foliar spray or a soak. What's the organic forum's take on this stuff? Sounds like it could be a godsend for a gardener.

 

[guest2012y]

Alfalfa is good stuff and most of the peeps I know use it...however it can burn so watch the concentration if you are planning on a foliar. It works just fine as a topdress also..and yes small amounts in an ACT is ok as a food source..I know CT Guy was using it in his ACT. This is fast release nitrogen..be careful. I wouldn't be spraying it in flower....mostly because triconatol is suspect for prolonging flowering...and the extra residual material on the flowers just ain't my style~

 

[rrog]

Sorry for being stupid. Is the alfalfa I'd buy in the form of alfalfa hay?

 

[MrSterling]

Sorry for being stupid. Is the alfalfa I'd buy in the form of alfalfa hay?

As far as I can tell it seems to be any form of alfalfa, but Alfalfa pellets have a higher concentration of nutrients.

Capt., do you have any opinion on the use of alfalfa as an addition to soil mixes?

 

[guest2012y]

Capt., do you have any opinion on the use of alfalfa as an addition to soil mixes?

I use it almost every time when I recycle. I feel as though it would be best 'cooked' along with the other amendments when re-amending. I also feel that after 3 months in a cycle the majority of the triconatol has been broken down by the soil,and has been used during the growth and end phase of flowering by the plant....so it may be that I'm seeing positive results when using it in this manner rather than applying in other ways which may have prolonged flowering IME.

..but this is a tea thread.... the triconatol subject has been kicked around before by Coot or someone who may have more experience with it than I.
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