Taking it too the next level!!

[gregor_mendel]

fvk:

I've never used chemical nutrients before so do you think it'd be safe to change over to the GH?

It is safe. Unless you are using flouros, go full strength 6/9 right off the bat.

 

[clowntown]

Even under HIDs, neither my ChemDD's and Apollo Mist liked 6/9. I started at about 3/4.5 and any more resulted in the nitrogen over-fert leaf curl. The AM's handled it a little better, but the ChemDD's really showed their distaste!

I should note that I am using a mycorrhizae mix (Plant Success' Great White, specifically) and I'm not sure if this is what's causing my plants to be so sensitive; I understand that mycos increase the surface area of the roots and consequently allow the plant to take up more more nutes, more efficiently resulting in lesser nutes required.

This is an example of how adding too much stuff (which you do not fully understand) can complicate things. Right now I'm in the guesswork phase of whether it's the strain, or whether it's the mycos, or something else... but I probably won't know for sure until the next time.

 

[Cozy Amnesia]

Oh, really?

Cozy Amnesia, Are you using the Canna coco base nutes? I have used them and found that i needed to add calmag, so has ALOT of other people. I now realize that I was not using it at 8ml /gal like I am supposed to.

Hmm...I assumed that the canna's coco specific nutes would be flawless. I guess I shouldn't make assumptions, sorry about that.

 

[~fvk~]

Jitamon - Thanks for the suggestion but I stuck with just regular Flora. It's nice not to have to do a "tea" anymore and it's only been a couple hours.

Gregor - Yeah, not too stoked on fluoro's so I'm under a 400MH for veg. I'm still gonna start out lightly though... I'll probably start out a little bet less than half strength and work my way up.

 

[JITAMON]

Clowntown, Ok let me try this again. By looking at the numbers of certain base nute's, I notice that the ratio's are off the mark, doesn't match any of the discussed formulas. So people see nutrient deficiencies,mostly cal/mag issues. Most peoples first instinct is to add more cal/mag, thus the talk of coco being a cal/mag hog. I read about it all the time here on I.C. What"it"really boils down to is having ratios out of proportion. With ratio's in proportion one has to use little, if any cal/mag.

 

[Guest]

Well the lucas formula is a mixture of flora bloom and micro to achieve the target ratio, and it can be modified for use with coco.

I think of the Lucas Formula as the 100N-100P-200K-60Mg profile that is not nute specific. So long as you have access to the nutrient profile calculator http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm
you can reproduce the numbers with a variety of nute lines and/or additives (Flora, Floranova, PBP, etc.). I think that is what the Lucas formula is all about.

All you need is the FloraNova Bloom for your entire grow.

Is it for veg too? I was under the impression that Lucas used this for flower only, since he did sea of green. Seems like low N for veg, but if it works, it can't get much easier than that, eh?

Sorry for a sidetrack question (i searched), do you know if floranova has a limed usable period before it expires? I've got like a full pretty unused bottle of that stuff, maybe a year and a half or two old......It might be time to break it back out?

I seem to recall the shelf life of Floranova being reported at about a year. I use PBP & CNS-17; soon to be 100% CNS-17 so I won't have to worry about that.

Here you go man. Pulled from BGHydro >>> http://forums.bghydro.com/faq.php?faq=faq_nutrients

Nutrients are split into two formulations because the phosphorus, calcium and sulfur nutrients need to be separated from each other. If this is not done, then the calcium and phosphorus, as well as the calcium and sulfur, in high concentrations, will react with each other to form calcium phosphate (cement) and calcium sulfate (gypsum). Both calcium phosphate and calcium sulfate precipitate out of solution, forming a white precipitate (which will usually fall to the bottom of the reservoir), and are unavailable to the plants. This will cause phosphorus, calcium and sulfur deficiencies in the plant. Once these nutrients are mixed together in the reservoir they are at lower concentrations and also a pH balanced nutrient mix will prevent the three nutrients from reacting with each other. This is another reason why balancing pH is extremely important.

Some nutrients are one part such as FloraNova Grow and Bloom, are extremely thick and need to be shaken well before mixing into the reservoir. If these nutrients aren’t shaken well before use then the precipitates that have formed at the bottom of the bottle aren’t remixed into solution. This will cause deficiencies, slow growth and reduced yields.

Some nutrients also come in three parts. This is done with some brands of hobby hydroponic nutrient formulas so that the grower can mix the three parts in different ratios to create different solutions for the vegetative and bloom stages, as well as for different types of plants, without having to switch to a different product. Most commercial formulas, however, are two part (you’ll never see a commercial hydroponic farm using a one or three part nutrient formula; they are primarily for hobby growers).

Cheers!

 

[Cozy Amnesia]

So if there are no precipitates floating in it is it still good?

 

[Guest]

So if there are no precipitates floating in it is it still good?

I would think the cement would sink to the bottom instead of floating; I don't know about gypsum(drywall?). If you don't feel or hear anything solid in there when you shake the bottle, I would think all is well.

 

[JITAMON]

I think of the Lucas Formula as the 100N-100P-200K-60Mg profile that is not nute specific. So long as you have access to the nutrient profile calculator http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fo...es/profiles.htm
you can reproduce the numbers with a variety of nute lines and/or additives (Flora, Floranova, PBP, etc.). I think that is what the Lucas formula is all about.

Very well said. My feeling's exactly. The Lucas formula is a base formula that works. The more we work it and share the knowledge the better we get. Every plant is different. Each strain is different. Get to know your strain. Get to know your grow as a whole.
I say this cause if we ain't got base, we ain't got shit. The plant only need's what it needs nothing more, nothing less. It is our job to deliver the necessary nutrients,water,and environment that make our individual strain or strain's reach their maximal potential!! It is our job to learn their need's. Only then are we taking it to the next level.
Each and every grow has its own variable's. It is never the same thing twice. We can however, reduce grower error if we grow smart.

 

[Buxxy]

Ok since I tried to figure out that Nute Calculator and failed to understand how to use it I was wondering if any of you nute doctors could break down the numbers for Canna's PK13/14 as Jitamon have done for few of those AN additives on page 1 and suggest what amount to use with Canna's Coco solution. The label says (PK13/14):

- N: 0%
- P: 13% (as P2O5)
- K: 14% (as K2O)

big kudos for anyone here willing to help me on this one

 

[gramsci.antonio]

for the non-US constumers: be careful!

 

[JITAMON]

Aloha, Buxxy, I wanted to post these. These #'s are for Canna coco nute's,

canna coco 5.7a plus 5.7b (this is their baseline 3ml per liter formula), the highest dosage they recommend is 14ml/gal of canna coco A plus 14 of B). This mix (5.7ml/gal) is less than 1/3 strength of GH Flora Nova Bloom @8ml per gallon on the P, K and Mg..
N 87
P 30
K 43
Mg 17


canna coco 8/a and 8/b
121
42
60
24

Here is canna coco's strongest bloom mix, before the pk14 boost. it resembles the GH FloraNovaGrow recipe in its Nitrogen level
canna coco 14/a and 14/b
212
74
106
42

Here we see Canna Coco hitting hard with P and K
canna coco 14/a and 14/b plus 6ml pk13-14

212
177
317
42

pk 13-14 alone
0
103
212

This is straight from Lucas.

 

[Buxxy]

thanks a lot jitamon. I must learn to use this damn calculator I kknow I'll need it at one point again

 

[MedResearcher]

I use PBP & CNS-17; soon to be 100% CNS-17 so I won't have to worry about that.

CNS-17 is a godsend ^^

Ive been using it for some time now, I started using it with additives. Although now I use only CNS-17 with better results. So simple 1 part veg, 1 part flower. Watch the PH and push the ppms until you find out what the strain can take.

I also tried modified lucas formulas with less success... all the calculating and mixing is a royal pain, as well as easily miscalculated or messed up.

Ive used AN, GH, as well as a couple other less known lines, and I have to say, I dont think I will try anything besides CNS-17 anytime soon, if ever. Great results for a fraction of the price and hassle. I feel the same about CoCo as well.

MR^^

 

[Guest]

CNS-17 is a godsend ^^

Ive been using it for some time now, I started using it with additives. Although now I use only CNS-17 with better results. So simple 1 part veg, 1 part flower. Watch the PH and push the ppms until you find out what the strain can take.

I also tried modified lucas formulas with less success... all the calculating and mixing is a royal pain, as well as easily miscalculated or messed up.

Ive used AN, GH, as well as a couple other less known lines, and I have to say, I dont think I will try anything besides CNS-17 anytime soon, if ever. Great results for a fraction of the price and hassle. I feel the same about CoCo as well.

MR^^

Do you use R/O? I find that R/O + CNS-17 Bloom = ph perfect; I'll wager the Grow formula is spot on aswell.

I'm with you man; riding the CNS-17 gravy-train until the wheels fall off.

 

[mister c]

Beautiful thread Jitamon. A lot of priceless information to be utilized. Thanks a grip.

When you say Rez and Head (resinhead) went to school, did you mean that figuratively speaking or actual real live schools. If actual schools, which ones??

Peace.

 

[Cozy Amnesia]

Bump for awesome thread

 

[wickedpete66]

CNS-17 is a godsend ^^

Ive been using it for some time now, I started using it with additives. Although now I use only CNS-17 with better results. So simple 1 part veg, 1 part flower. Watch the PH and push the ppms until you find out what the strain can take.

I also tried modified lucas formulas with less success... all the calculating and mixing is a royal pain, as well as easily miscalculated or messed up.

Ive used AN, GH, as well as a couple other less known lines, and I have to say, I dont think I will try anything besides CNS-17 anytime soon, if ever. Great results for a fraction of the price and hassle. I feel the same about CoCo as well.

MR^^

Ive been using cns17 bloom as well. This is my first coco run and I noticed that the phosphorus is a bit lacking so I have been adding some earth juice bloom(0-3-1) to it. I have been using 2tsp cns17 and 3tsp ej bloom/gal.

Are you guys stating that I shouldn't worry about the low phosphorus and just use the cns17 by itself? I'm midway through flower

 

[JITAMON]

Aloha!! Thanx for the support. I have been extremely busy taking it to the next level. I check in when I can. I am very happy to know this thread is helping people. I am very glad that we are working together.
I have a lot of info that is yet unspoken that deals with this topic. I will update this thread big time very soon.

 

[JITAMON]

< Jitamon, Clowntown mentioned that with CAnna AB (like with pretty much any equal mix AB), he has issues with the amount of N given towards the end of flowering....Do you experience ths at all with the floranova?>

I can see how the nitrogen can be a factor. My solution to this is dropping the base to 6ml/gal . This gives me a base ratio of 92-81-134-46-92. I am going to do this at the START of 12/12. This profile gives me room to add Floralicious+, Kool bloom and Carboload. The end phase I will drop the base formula to 2ml at most and add A.N. Overdrive as needed. Here's Lucas' take on additives once again.Here is Lucas going furthur with his thoughts on additives:

" I honestly don't think any of the additives are "bad" unless they are used in combination's that create overdoses or pH problems.

I don't think ANY additives are necessary, but otoh, I don't doubt that they can be used to help the grower feel more interactive, without causing harm, and possibly even being helpful to the plants metabolism.

therefore, Im not going to go as far as to call any additive a snake oil, just unnecessary.

given the choice that an additive could be good, bad, or neutral, I think they can be used to produce any of the 3 possible results.

Of course, if you dont use the additive, there is no chance that the bad or neutral result will occur. And if you buy a complete nutrient, many of which now contain Humics, then there is no need to add additional additives.

otoh, Im sure there are many people who have developed a feel for a combination of ingredients, including humics and or fulvic acids, that works for them in combination with other products, to build a combination of products that meets the needs of the plants, just like a one bottle commercial product can.

What I most discourage, is the use of additives to remedy problems, that are actually caused by environment, instead of nutrition defficiencies or overdoses.

One of the most common overused additives is Clearex. It is used to remove excess nutes, after a feel based grower has overdosed their plants with additives like PK 13-14. Unfortunately, I have seen regular and repeated learning curves in people who get their plants so waterlogged from flushing them, that it is no longer possible for the plants to survive. The roots die, the pH drops, the leaves curl, and the grower starts looking for better additives. The real problem in this example, is over watering, after overfeeding.

The flushing additive did absolutely nothing but allow the grower to mess with their plants even more often, but the plants dont appreciate being water logged.

see my drift?

as to your original question, Im sure you or someone else willing to risk a crop on an experiment, could come up with a recipe that uses humics and fulvic additives, without hurting the plants. I doubt though, that the use of any additive will increase the yield of a garden beyond what could be done without the additives."

hth
Lucas

Let's hear some recipes using Floranova Bloom as a base. What additives do you use with the Floranova?
By the way check this out:http://www.eminfo.info/ This will soon be a topic we discuss, just giving a Head's up