Synthetic yields more then organics; myth?

[gregor_mendel]

I we don't mind cross posting, Lucas said this on the subjuct at CW

I we don't mind cross posting, Lucas said this on the subjuct at CW

> Does hydro offer an increase in yield vs. soil/less

No, not in equally skilled hands.

soil/less can yield just as well as hydro.

Yield comes from light , and from fat healthy plants, regardless of how they are watered, or what they are fed.

imo, the term Hydro is a general term for lots of different styles of growing, the common element being that the watering is not done by hand, and the nutrients come from a bottle.

A lot of times people ask a question about hydro vs soil/less, and implied is that the medium is hand watered, and may be preloaded with organic nutrients, though most indoor medium based growers supplement with bottled (hydro) nutrients.

Hand watering is a skill. Most beginners water too much and too often, keeping the medium too wet, preventing oxygen from reaching the roots.

In hydro, the how to water question is simpler, because hydro offers such high oxygenation rates to the water.

So I think the question to ask is, are you willing to hand water, which requires daily visits to the garden. Or do you want to automate, so you can leave on vacation for a week at a time?

Lucas OnVacation

 

[gregor_mendel]

My personal experience is summed up in the last 3 paragraphs in Lucas' post from CW (above)

I have ruined many crops with my poor handwatering skills.
I probably could hand water now that I am a decent gardener, but I already love hydro - especially indoors.

Many people who are new to this hobby have never grown a plant, much like I once was.

Hydro is just less work for me, and I screw it up less.

What are the NASTIES in refined minerals? I am not aware of them.

gregor

 

[foaf]

My experience is that it is easier to **** up organic fertilizers if you are pushing the envelop of high growth rates, dense spacing of plants, high light levels, or long veg times and big plants. With that theory said, I suspect that high yeilds are more often successful with so called synthetic nutrients. A monkey ( me for example ) can grow big fine super high yeilding plants in a bubbler using one part flora nova and following the directions. A monkey can't grow huge high yeilding plants in soild using organic nutrients in as predictable of a fashion. If you have problems with soil/organics you have to figure it out and treat the patient carefully, if you have problems in a bubbler or most other hydro teks, you dump the reservoir, flush briefly, and start over following the label.

 

[Mr Celsius]

Nice turn out from both "sides".

I guess to sum it up, it seems that they are on equal par with each other, except organics requires more education. So a "monkey" that may not want to learn and just smoke will probably use synthetics; where, someone who wants to grow and learn about growing cannabis will probably use organics.

Personally, I like to grow and learn about everything in life. Also, I've grown in every hydroponic system out there; I'm done. This monkey wants to evolve into a man.

 

[Guest]

so you going outdoors?

 

[Dignan]

I used to manage the produce department in a natural foods market. It always irked me that most of the folks who shopped there bought organic products because they are healthier for the person consuming them and rarely because the production of organic food is much less detrimental to the planet.

In other words, they bought organic for selfish reasons, i.e. to benefit themselves in an immediate way... rather than buying organic because it's healthy for them and also happens to benefit everyone else living on the planet.

The same thing annoys me about these organic nutrients vs. synthetic nutrients debates we have here over and over.

Everyone seems to only care about growth rates, yield and quality of the final product (all of which, an argument can be made, are equal among organic soil, synthetic soil or synthetic hyrdro).

Does nobody care that the production of synthetic nutrients creates far more waste and pollution than the production (which is more accurately described as "collection") of organic nutrients?

For me, that's the primary reason I strive to master organic cultivation methods, in the closet, in the garden and in the forest. It's the responsible way to supply yourself with meds.

 

[foaf]

Does nobody care that the production of synthetic nutrients creates far more waste and pollution than the production (which is more accurately described as "collection") of organic nutrients?

I think you are correct about this, but Im not positive. For example, you proposed that organic produce if better for the environment. In some ways this is certainly true, of course no pesticide run off ect. But in other ways it is not always - for some produce there is significantly less production per acre, so if we were to do total organic farming, one might infer that more deforestation would be required to provide the worlds needs and in some cases more fossil fuels burned per amount of produce since organics plots can be tilled and harvested with machinery and there is sometimes less density of produce per acre.

I'm not down on organics at all, farming produce or pot, but I don't think you can be so sure exactly where your bought fertilizers come from or how they are made, regardless if they are harvested guano or GH 3 part; and the overall impact on the planet is a very elusive beast to quantitate.

 

[Sheriff Bart]

learn how they derive the "synthetic" stuff. not very nice IMO. I'd rather use nature with nature instead of fighting nature (deriving synthetics) to help nature....seems kinda contradictory to me! oh well what do i know i am but a simple man trying to live a simple existence....

oh and organic crops have been proven to have higher levels of nutrients than non-organic.

also, while on the topic i will say stay the **** away from GMO foods. they are terrible for you. they wont publish/realease the studies showing it but they are out tehre if you look. down with genetically modified shit. go organic!

 

[gregor_mendel]

Please, cite your source.

Please, cite your source.

oh and organic crops have been proven to have higher levels of nutrients than non-organic.

If your are saying there exists a scientific article that demonstrates an experiment on a plant, then yes, that is true.

Repeated, over and over, without contradiction... cite your source.

gregor

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

You Know... There are areas where 'organics' are destroying the eco-system...
Just because something is organic does not make it good...
Lots of organic substances can be harmful... Organics can pollute the environment...

Post up some factual info about how the derivation of nutrients from minerals destroys the environment...

Cow manure runoff from farms is destroying the ecosystem that used to exist in buffalo river national park, in Arkansas...
Changing the nitrogen levels in the river, and allowing algae and mosses to proliferate, robbing the stream of it's oxygen and killing off species needing a high oxygen environment... There are plenty of other examples of organic substances damaging the environment...

Organics isn't perfect. Organics isn't superior. Organics works. Mineral derived nutrients work. It doesn't have to be a pissing contest. Both methods can work equally well and negative things can be brought up about each method.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

And how on earth could 'removing toxins from minerals' be 'fighting nature' lol... Using the system nature evolved, maybe... but fighting nature? puhlease...

The Organics vs Derived Hydroponics debate often reminds me of the Religion vs Science debate...

 

[SensimillaWolf]

What makes a synthetically derived nutrient formula "clean" in comparason to a nutrient formula that is "unclean?" Can anyone give examples of each?

I just read in one of the quotes from gratefulhead's link to understanding inorganic salts which says

"The effects of balanced and unbalanced high-salt nutrient solutions on soil microorganisms were studied with the aid of fluorescence microscopy. Changes in microbial activity were determined by evaluation of direct counts, degree of colonization, colonization patterns, and distribution of bacteria throughout the soil samples. Although both types of salt solutions inhibited growth at high levels of osmotic stress (–1000, –1500, and –2000 kPa), the balanced salt formulation stimulated growth at less negative osmotic potentials (–500 kPa)."

I take it this means a balanced salt forumlation could be beneficial in organic growing.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Well, for example... PBP contains more mercury, lead and arsenic than GH flora series...

 

[Mr Celsius]

Cow manure runoff from farms is destroying the ecosystem that used to exist in buffalo river national park, in Arkansas...
Changing the nitrogen levels in the river, and allowing algae and mosses to proliferate, robbing the stream of it's oxygen and killing off species needing a high oxygen environment... There are plenty of other examples of organic substances damaging the environment...

Please cite your sources. Also, I think you've got it wrong. The carbon to nitrogen exchange of most "synthetic" fertilizers used by large ag is actually the run off that is causing the algae to grow and strip the water of oxygen.

I think you are correct about this, but Im not positive. For example, you proposed that organic produce if better for the environment. In some ways this is certainly true, of course no pesticide run off ect. But in other ways it is not always - for some produce there is significantly less production per acre, so if we were to do total organic farming, one might infer that more deforestation would be required to provide the worlds needs and in some cases more fossil fuels burned per amount of produce since organics plots can be tilled and harvested with machinery and there is sometimes less density of produce per acre.

Ecologically speaking, organics can be just as bad as synthetics. If your actually interested in Ag systems that are neutral to positive in an ecological sense. Please read up on general Sustainable ag; most specifically, look up biodynamic and biointensive gardening. Bio-intensive garden, while restricted somewhat, is the the most productive Ag system in regards to soil production.

True hydroponics (roots submersed in water) is the most productive system on the planet. If you keep it in a closed system, i.e. greenhouse, and use suplimental lighting and environmental conditions, you can have twice the production of food per acre. It just costs a lot to setup a system like that. There are a number of growers in the North Eastern US that are certified organic but are using NFT systems. They use bacteria to make organic materials, like blood, bone and kelp meal plant available and then run that rich nutrient solution through their systems.

If you really cared about your local ecology, you would be growing your cannabis outside with hedgerows, IPM as part of your system, food crops next to it, legumes to fix atmospheric nitrogen into the soil. But the reality is, this plant that we love is illegal, so we're not able to integrate it into a true natural setting. Think about it, if cannabis was legal, would most people spend the ridiculous amount of money and take up space in their homes to grow dope? Or would they just throw 30 of them outdoors and have enough smoke for the year?

Society and systems are really the blame in the big picture of things. The most we can do is try and be as ecologically sound as possible. We can argue about transportation costs and effects on this and that, but we're stuck in a system in which it is very difficult to get out. How many of you run a sustainable commune where there is very little to no inputs? Thats what I thought...

Peace

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

From Buffalo River Stewardship Foundation
Box 5003-161, Harrison AR, 72602

Major sources of "non-point pollution" entering the Buffalo River are: runoff from pastures; forest clearing on steep slopes; brush clearing on tributary banks; and streambank erosion

 

[floppyfundanglr]

those cows were probably put there by people...right and i need proof mister. If not, than on with darwin survival of the fittest poopy cows. I mean ive pretty much eatin everything i give my plants. Fish...probably polluted with mercury and cyanide from people...yum yum yum. Mollasses....mmmm mmm good makes me happy. Would you like some taffy. Bones well on accident choked on many. Dont get any ideas for a joke im watching you. Worms and there poop um no but the fish like em and so does fear factor. No ones dying. Now give me a bottle of mirical grow yum yum. ill get back on the results should be a doozy.

peace

Oh and i forgot the veggies i get at walmart that are raised with synth nutes are ****ed. Avacadoes that look ripe but are like plastic on the inside. Blueberries that dont get you all purple and are white on the inside. big huge tomatoes with no taste. I mean i love a good pile of shit.

 

[Mr Celsius]

http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/1128.html

To be certified organic, manure has to stand for at least 18 months before being applied to the soil. It is illegal now to spray manure onto crops, because of the whole E. Coli scare with the spinach a little while back. If manure is used as a fertilizer in certified organic crops, its tilled into the soil.

Spraying ammonia in vast quantities (like non-organic farmers do) will cause a nutrient rich run-off, if near water ways.

If manure is part of the cause, its not going to be from a certified organic farm. Its going to be from a conventional farm that just happens to be using manure. Or its a cattle farm that is either farming for beef or dairy, which has nothing to do with produce food systems.

I realize that people on this site aren't using certified organic products. But if you want to produce food in our system, then you need to follow certain regulations.

I typed "organic agriculture cause hypoxia in the gulf of mexico" and didn't come up with anything: http://www.google.com/search?q=organic+agriculture+cause+Hypoxia+in+the+Gulf+of+Mexico&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

If you can find me a source that says that organic farmers are contributing to it, I'd bow down before you.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Ignorance...
It's not the nutes that ruin wal-mart veggies, it's the whole growing environment and the varities grown...

I'lll drink a cup of nute from my rez if you'll drink a cup of shit tea ...

 

[Mr Celsius]

The Organics vs Derived Hydroponics debate often reminds me of the Religion vs Science debate...

Except there is scientific facts on both sides. Its not all voodoo and relativistic thinking.

 

[floppyfundanglr]

yippy my favorite do i get to choose what kind? In all honesty i dont mean anything but the fact that were getting no where fast and i suck organics dick.

props to your crops everyone