Verger, I got one word for you to ease your mind.
ORCHIDS.
peace
jip
ORCHIDS.
peace
jip
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Homegrow3r
Member
Dr. G said:
I don't think it's all fear mongering, just stating that you have 5400W running etc means you haven't read a bit of the guys post. He's also concerned generally that he's using too much power anyway and would like to reduce that too, you're proud that you use so much power, you can only be American, if I'm wrong, sorry for the insult, in Europe, where you may well be, we don't normally think like that.
Dr. G
Active member
Homegrow3r said:
hmmm you must be a stuck up European
fuck man were you in chat i dont think so
he said hes going to get caught because of the helo sniffers and the cyces that the 400w is running
he said that theres helocopters that can smell your grow and hone in on it you don tthink that this is fear mongering
fuck off you prolly think noone should be commerchial either and everyone should grow your own grow up and get your head outa your ass
you werent there so dont try to act like you know what is going on he only started this thread to fear monger
if a device is made 'smart' and given a node on a network it is vulnerable to hacking. so potentially a person might be able to spoof the meter if he could figure out how they worked.
if you are seriously worried about government monitoring and pattern recognition softare you should begin monitoring the hacking boards, magazines, and the like because sooner or later someone will break into one of these meters, figure out how it works, and post about it somewhere. 2600, CCC, and the like are a good place to start. if nothing else you will eventually learn _exactly_ how the meters work, which might let you figure a way around them.
this would be a great project for a hacker/grower. i am sure they are aound here somewhere.
or you could figure out a way to grow with sunlight.
if you are seriously worried about government monitoring and pattern recognition softare you should begin monitoring the hacking boards, magazines, and the like because sooner or later someone will break into one of these meters, figure out how it works, and post about it somewhere. 2600, CCC, and the like are a good place to start. if nothing else you will eventually learn _exactly_ how the meters work, which might let you figure a way around them.
this would be a great project for a hacker/grower. i am sure they are aound here somewhere.
or you could figure out a way to grow with sunlight.
guest2222999 said:
exactly my thoughts, or as I told him to atleast offset that with other lights/appliances, etc.
Just look at it from the basic point of view, that, it doesn't mean verger or anyone has to quit growing, it just means we have to learn to grow smarter.
I don't know what it'd take to make some of you guys stop, hehe. I gotta admit between alot of moves and personal issues, etc., I've pulled a few grows, just starting to get back into it again, and lord is it nice to have some girls growing again. As soon as my grows don't look like chit I'll have to post some pics up.
No need to argue or get heated about things, laws may be alot different where verger is from. I know myself, I could get busted with MUCH more and only get probation, only the violent offenders get jail time in my area, they just recently closed down a county jail too.
Stay Safe fellows,
Dirty ( and have a safe new years)
spaceghost22
Member
Dirty said:
I know I said I wouldn't post here again but this thread arouses me. I agree with you Dirty, let's stay ahead of the game and not be bullied in this way. There is SO much we can do. This smart meter tactic is not at all an effective tactic and it's not untollerably invasive. Public concern will mount tidal waves when the public is ready. The time is not right. The Man is smart, but so too are we and when we want something we get it.
Again Verger, I meant you no disrespect. I feel that my earlier post had me looking a bit foolish in this way. Don't worry brother, we'll figure something out. In the meantime, stay safe and grow on!
Macster2
Member
I've got a smart meter on my house and I'm currently running 3 1000watt bulbs pumps fans etc.(big electric bill) and trackable by pattern I'm sure. My electric co. doesn't care as long as they get their money. Why should they, they supply power there not extensions of Leo. It's not their battle nor do they want it to be.Just don't rip them off.
Your pattern of usage or the amount you use will only show up if you spark interest in another way. By then your buggard anyways.
Your pattern of usage or the amount you use will only show up if you spark interest in another way. By then your buggard anyways.
V
Verger OG
No, what I said was that in principle they can detect a small grow operation. For a computer chip attached to a device that can measure particles in the air there is no difference or difficulty in detecting a small grow operation or a big one. I did not say I was worried that me personally would be found out by such devices. I brought this example forth to show you that the police isn't sitting stil. I added this information about sniffers in small remote controled helicopters to proof that technology is being invented and implemented to track us. So, it was a support argument for my concerns about smart meters and how they can be a problem in the future.
Here I can describe it much better than in chat. I hope you get that without dissing me.
I dont' see why you would get angry at me because Dutch police is working with out nation's top technological institution, TNO (what perhaps you would call MIT) to find novel ways to detect grow operations.
Again, I am not worried about such a device hovering over my suburb.
But what do I worry about and the reason for that being for instance the american military, who keep inventing drone type craft to be used above battlefields but as well as domestically for law enforcement purposes and how they keep working to perfect such technologies all the time, is that when you loook from a birds eye view at these inventions (no pun intended) you can easily combine the forward march of such systems which without a douubt will be used against us. And there my quote comes in again.
They may use this to be used in war zones first, but already these drones are hovering about the usa. It is therefore only a matter of time, if only for its cost effectiveness (as real helo's are much more expensive to fly around) that such drones will be mass produced to assist law enforcement world wide.
So, am I lying? And I a fool? No. I see how this will end up being used.
And a smart man will recognize this.
But again, this was only to show and proof that technology is being developed all the time to make our life difficult, just as smart meters will make life difficult.
"No, readership is in decline. I've always said, we have more good writers than we have good readers."
-- Gore Vidal
You must be very scared that again you attack me so. Ridicule won't show you have a brain in this matter, in this discussion. I have already given links that proof my point. These sniffer devices are not a conspiracy theory. Law enforcement WILL NOT neglect to use these if it saves them money on tracking grow operations. In general, police forces use the maximum width or limit they can get away with defined by the law to do criminal investigations. There is no law that disallows them to utilize technology to their advantage.
That was the problem, you didn't read, you were busy typing and missed half of my point, you were too busy insulting me, laughing and using phrases like 'bring out the tinfoil hats'.
I deleted the rest because typing is not your strong point either...
Though I still see the same misconceptions. It is not about 400W or how much power you use. It is about pattern recognition and computer software technology. For a computer it doesn't matter if you use 0,0004W or 400.000W.
If everyday you have a LED on using 0,0004W and then increase it to 0,0008W, this is a significant increase of power use as you doubled your power use. Same way for 400.000 W. If that extra 0,0004W follows a rigid pattern on a daily basis, well, that is also significant, it is a parameter that is easily recognized.
Of course, this strict pattern is easily found, in real life it will be harder to detect, but it can be done.
Just yesterday, to give a support argument, I saw some political debate about Dutch immigration and the minister explained how the computer system, in support of human detection of fraud by immigrants, could flag certain parameters and that over time, if multiple parameters were flagged, a printout would point to a pattern of fraud which would then lead to a human investigation.
Of course there will be false negatives, in this case one third of all the suspicious dossiers were cases of fraud and two thirds false positives.
Now, as this sort of system is going to be used on power use, I am sure the irregular power use of some people will cause many false negatives. But I sure would not want to be listed on a printout and being more closely examined. As that goes, it is not about the false negatives but about growers that get on that list. As they will check the WHOLE list as they don't know yet what the real criminals are yet.
V
Verger OG
That were my thoughts too. americans use a lot more power (and on average pollute 5 more times). By no incident in Obama's speech yesterday he referred to it when he said something about using the worlds resources.
And you are right, I am not concerned by my small grow operation.
But it seems that people do not understand, in this selfish world, that I am thinking about their rights to privacy too. It seems hard to get for some people here that I genuinely worry about not just my own safety but theirs too. And that I can rise above my own petty needs for privacy and safety to stand up for those of all of us.
I find that people do not want to discuss this because perhaps the reason exists with them that they rather 'fight the power' and define themselves as courageous risk takers; I am sure that is a sort of ego boost to many. But I rather not have my door busted down.
Or perhaps they just do not want to hear it, withdraw in the seclusion of their grow operation dreaming that they will not get caught or in other words 'lalalal I can't hear you'.
If we do not discuss technology, how can we resist it? As it should be clear now that LEA are using technology to find us, perhaps we should do likewise. And to rely on a smart guy that will invent something to fool a smart meter is too dreamy. Better to think it over now than wait until the first arrest have been made.
Personally I do not believe in techno fixes, that will just pop up show e can all buy a smart meter manipulator.
I rather demonstarte in the street for privacy and to stop the Big Brother society that is enforced upon us as we keep retreating into corners with decreasign relative freedom.
So, my worry about smart meters is really just another aspect of a wider issue of civil rights and liberties, privacy and the control state that has arisen after 11-0-01 and how that sort of world will make it tough on 'criminals' like growers because as you know, anti-terror measures and laws are increasingly abused to fight 'normal' criminals.
You cannot see the one without the other in this.
We all fight and wish for legalization of our herb. It is not an isolated fight. It ties in with the right of self determination, the right to make our choice of vice and the liberties that we should uphold of ordinary people to define society.
An example here would be the Dutch Cannabis Tribunal where christian democrat minister just plainly said that smoking cannabis is wrong, without any argument and that their party 'beleives' this to be true on moral grounds.
How can anyone ignore this fight and not see the link to the increasing use or abuse of technology to track us, proof our wrong doings and not see how that connects to smart meters as a novel new way to detect patterns in consumer power use saying it will save power (which is a good thing for climate reasons) but also undeniably will lead to our life below the radar being exposed just a little more.
V
Verger OG
Yes but that is not the issue is it. I rather not have any registration or possible registration of my private power use than hope to be able to HIDE in a large number of detections. It is taking the wrong stance.
We have the RIGHT to use power privately and the RIGHT not to have anyone measure us up every 15 minutes.
This is critical and I have concluded over the last years, perhaps since I started being interested in what occurred with our lives after 11-9-01 regarding our privacy and civil rights, people do not truly understand what it means to be free anymore.
Instead of saying no to an Orwellian nightmare, they believe privacy is a luxury where in fact it is a right. They accept that laws are installed, technology abused and developed that tracks us, detects us, monitors us as if we were all terrorists or at least criminals. I remind you of the 11 year old girl arrested under anti-terrorist laws in England for walking on the grass. Or how if you fly you are to keep liquids in special bags with a maximum amount of liquid, because detestable people in government and society fear monger about liquid explosives.
We keep retreating making up excuses for the power abuse by our own governments. As growers we know how the deal is because we are defined criminals.
But now all of society us being made guilty. Technology is our menace and mostly our attitude of apathy allows them to proceed.
The wheel of time turns and fascism is here again. Perhaps we call it differently nowadays, but history proves war and peace exchange and now our generation is up to look passively upon our erosion of freedom.
I wonder if we will be the ones cheering in the street when tanks roll by, like Germans in WWII, without a clue about how diabolical things were about to unfold.
And the smart meter is a place to start, it is a vanguard of fascism right in your own home.
That is the way I see it. And I don't think I am wrong to worry.
So why not take a different stance. Not hide in numbers and hope technology can be applied to fight their technology.
I rather have a principle society with a government would not dream of imposing on us with smart meters, saying it is for your own good.
Today they do not need concentration camps. Our own homes are concentration camps as they keep us locked in, measure, monitored and scared, divided and small or wrong minded about what freedom and liberty is.
That is why I worry about smart meters. That is why I do not have a cell phone. That is why, as a guy who loved to watch the tv shows on new gadgets and inventions now take a step back from technology and assess it with more caution.
But they keep improving. New processors are being developed. More processing capacity, storage capacity, analyzing capacity.
I foresee that the police will call upon 'good citizens' to download BOINC and participate in their project to analyze power use of homes. Paranoia? No, just a logical next step.
Many people will join, they don't break the law and feel they pay too much taxes, that could go down if criminals didn't steal from society as a whole.
You see, always a reason to help.
Technology doesn't stand still. And datamining systems keep getting better at it.
Less than you imagine. If it is a measure of cost effectiveness, be aware of the cost of LEO to criminalize your grow op and how bill;ions are spent on it. If you can detect or just increase the chance of a real positve in datamining using advanced computer technologies and software, this will reduce the cost more likely than it would increase.
A PC is cheaper than a squad teams busing a door down because they have a tip and finding nothing.
Especially in the usa, where cops get to use the money they get from the criminal to use it on their own department...it makes sense to be efficient. If they can use computers and datamining from smart meters to increase, even by a few percent, the chance to catch a grower at work, it will be worth it.
Yes, but they will learn from that and advance their software or whatever. It is a game and they get substantial budgets to fight crime.
One of the justifications will be that terrorism is sponsored by criminal activities and that therefore to fight terrorism one needs to fight normal crime. Then their budgets will be increased.
I do not think they would be raised. I believe they would be observed first. There are other signs in my country when a house is not rented for living but for other things. A quick interview with a neighbor could reveal a lot. And they don't have to use squad teams either, they can just ring the doorbell.
And let's forget that EVERY DAY the police finds grow houses. They find so many of them that the police is not handling the deconstruction of these place anymore, they don't have time. That ties in with your previous argument of cost. They now just have special teams to hail plants and equipment out, drive it to a dump site and use a shovel to wreck the equipment. And I don't think these are even in law enforcement, just a business or an approved company or team for the municipal garbage service.
Let's also not forget that all over the world these smart meters are being rapidly installed, I say, infecting our privacy.
Yes, the smart meter is a smart meter and is being installed precidely BECAUSE it tracks power use and sends it to the power company for the reason of climate change and to be able to HELP consumers SAVE on their power bills. So these devices are INTENDED to send data to be analyzed. Otherwise, what other purpose would they serve.
It is for THAT reason that my government postpones the implementation because they want the BEST technology available, that means, they want smart meters that can measure per 15 minutes because measuring per 15 minutes is a time frame that is better than 1 hour tracking.
So not "maybe".
And YES, the power companies WILL analyze to be able to give consumers insight into their power use. Perhaps you should read wikipedia on them meters...
I foresee that you can login on the website of your power company to see the stats and get an instant computer generated advice.
After all, they already do something like that here. Every year the power company sees what you have used in total killowatthour. And based on that data they calculate what your monthly will pay in the next year.
So in effect they already do simple datamining.
go get your foil hat on, just like I told you in chat. In fact for you bro, I once again recommend the full foil suit.
Yes you are quite a respectful person.
The quality of your arguments is overwhelming.
tnt_blaster
New member
Electricity is not a right. It is not guaranteed by any means. I have known multiple people at elec. co's, that's what they always told me. And the use of smart meters, is primarily to track power loss and theft. SURE it can be used to monitor patterns.. but the technology is not available to monitor your refrigerator's usage vs that of your elec. range. Will it happen one day, probably. Not in my lifetime though.
You are also forgetting that a lot of elec. co's are privately owned and operated e.g. Elec Co-op. They only care about theft and people who don't pay. Seriously.
To expect privacy from the power co is ridiculous. You are using THEIR services, THEIR transmission lines, THEIR meters....
If you want to stay private, get off the grid. Only solution.
You are also forgetting that a lot of elec. co's are privately owned and operated e.g. Elec Co-op. They only care about theft and people who don't pay. Seriously.
To expect privacy from the power co is ridiculous. You are using THEIR services, THEIR transmission lines, THEIR meters....
If you want to stay private, get off the grid. Only solution.
V
Verger OG
It was not very evasive either apparently, before WWII, to register in the municipal administration whether or not someone was Jewish.
I beleive you are wrong.
I believe that you have things backward. You do not even see how invasive it is for governments to dictate that in your house you require a smart meter to 'help' you save power and by doing so help battle climate change.
A commendable idea in principle, but I prefer that children from pre-school all the way to high school and college are taught, perhaps in what americans call civil class, not to use so much power. And by indoctrinating children from young age with ecological awareness we change the world. I know the term 'indoctrination' has negative connotations.
But I looked the word up and it does not have to be negative.
"is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. "
So let's do that to help ourselves be more ecological, rather than allow governments to inflict smart meters upon us.
Let's keep government down, rather than increase its power over us. And its ability to mine us for intelligence.
I am scared and amazed by what people tolerate what is being done to them these days. We are being worn down and the threshold between freedom and oppression is moving in our disadvantage.
Growers are a tiny minority and before we go out march on Washington in the style of the black people of america with hundreds of thousands, do you think we have moral support or respect by anti-weed prejudices people?
Where are these mass demonstrations now? In the Netherlands in the 60's people demonstrated, and fought the police in the streets. I know an old man who did that. He told me the same thing I perceive. People are lazy, apathic. They do not demonstrate anymore.
One of my countries' prime moments was the Februari strike during German occupation, when workers became solidair with Jews, who were being arrested and not allowed to work. People rose together.
Nowadays we all fight for ourselves and worry about our income, we have been made to lead a life of divisions, all of us in glass boxes and me me me and fuck the rest.
When we want to demonstrate, we need a permit and need to have responsible persons to guide the march. We need to start at a designated time. We need to be finished by another time or traffic will suffer. We need ambulanbces standing by because god forbid that someone gets hurt by falling of the curb. We need police ready to process traffic and make sure you don't vandalise.
You should have seen how Dutch police attacked young students when they finally marched for the first time in their lives against plans of the government about education. They don't take any shit anymore, the cops these days.
How far we are removed from the 60's when being arrested was a sacrifice you made. Nowadays being arrested means so much more than to stand up for what you believe in. It means a permanent eye on you for the rest of your life and if you aren't careful you never work again.
Point is, demonstrating is a completely controled facade here, no spontaneity, it is completely institutionalized.
Imagine the Febrauro strikers in Rotterdam in WWII applying for a permit...
These geenrations know what freedom is and what price we paid.
You? I doubt you know the value of what you squander and so easily be apathic about.
The time is now to rise up. And it should start with vanguards like smart meters. It starts by opposing anti-terrorist measures and laws, it starts by defending your constitution that Obama dared to mention yesterday. It starts by relearning what rights you have.
I asked earlier, at what point do we start to feel worried? You say not to worry.
But I am. In june is my last chance to get an old passport, because after that they will fingerprint me, two fingers and use biometric data in my passport.
Although my passport is still valid for years to come, I want to be sure I get an old one and use it as long as I can.
It is doubtful I will ever fly again. This is a matter of principles. I detest it, I loathe it, this world that we live in now. I lack civil words to describe my increasing outrage and dissapointment in our apathy and disregard for the sacrifices that have been made to free us and preserve our freedom.
And it is just so much more painful to see Obama speak about the values and principles of america that we all know are hollow and at the same time must face people here who call me crazy because of my concerns.
64 years after WWII and we have already forgotten the soldiers, that Obama referred to, that fight for these values, even though these wars of america are never about values but about corporatism and greed and resources.
Taking it at face value, these words, they insult me and my, MY dream of freedom and my right to grow my weed.
I am disappointed with people. I stopped watching the news much. It will not be much longer before we are so divided, bound and tied up in social-economical layers of society, so preoccupied with only our own survival and choice of what to buy in shops, that we no longer have the ability or even the concept of freedom in our heads because you cannot fight an enemy who has outposts in our heads.
We have been made this way. Business leaders in america in early last century decided that society needs a good level of apathy.It stops them from thinking too much and rise up. To accomplish this we have been turned into consumers, because as they thought, when people are occupied with choice in shops, this will substitute for their political awareness.
They succeeded.
Again Verger, I meant you no disrespect. I feel that my earlier post had me looking a bit foolish in this way. Don't worry brother, we'll figure something out. In the meantime, stay safe and grow on!
V
Verger OG
I never said it is. What I said was that privacy is a right. And that power consumption is a right insofar as how we use it and for what in privacy, without ever growing insight by companies and governments into it.
Fascism is also sometimes named corporatism. I have no inclination to trust power companies.
As it is, the network owner of my area, Essent might be sold to a German company. Who can guarantee my privacy, when computer systems and databases become linked more and more, to form a detection grid that has aspects to it tied to all areas of our lives. And worse, why do I not get a say in whether I want a smart meter?
You are wrong. Just look at what we have come to accept. In my lifetime, no, in the timeframe of merely a decade so much has already changed. We now have a duty to ID ourselves in the street. If anyone would have brought this up in the 80's they would be laughed out of parliament.
I can write down a lengthy list of measures, laws and changes but I think you must know them.
That is why I do not trust them, they have no ideals. If government laws dictate that they must hand over their consumer analysis, they will do so. Just like ISP's are ny law obligated to store traffic data now in Europe or hand over information to LEO if so ordered. Just as libraries are now obligated to hand over what I read if so ordered. And even journalists must now sometimes reveal sources in the name of national security.
I am not naieve.
I do not think that is a valid argument. Not even my government would claim that position. We consider some goods and services as vital and a right. Everyone in my country is entitled to a roof over his head. And food and affordardable health care. We uphold a certain standard of living and as such we structure our society to provide such services and needs for everyone equally.
What you are doing is giving the government an argument, discriminating against yourself, to state that 'if you don't like it, buzzer off'.
I have a right to use electricity because it has been normalized as a good everyone is entitled to have. We have advanced so far that no one in their good mind will fall back to the position that BECAUSE we have been addicted to power, we nonetheless should never depend on it and that our whole life basically can be switched off with a government of power company claiming that it is our own fault for relying on it.
For this reason people on welfare can get money from local governments to buy a tv.
TV apparently is a basic right in NL these days because without it you will be so isolated that you may never even get a job if you remain that uninformed.
For electric power goes the same thing. So take it off grid if you don't trust or whatever or want privacy is a false argument. It also applies for a washing machine. Every 5 year people here can draw on municipal funds to buy something needed like that.
Hope you understand this.
NightFire
Member
Power usage alone will not get you caught, even if it they are able to say with 100% certainty that it's a grow light. Millions of people grow legal plants indoors. My ex and current in-laws have huge indoor grows going, all legit. My ex mother in law has close to 4kw in grow lights she uses year round so she can transplant to her outside garden year round.
For chips that can sniff things, that technology is still pretty far off. Even when it matures, aircraft will not be using it, unless they figure out some way for aircraft to stay in the air without disrupting the air pressure and air speed around them.
Smart meters are a fact of life, they are no different than the cable company putting as cable box in your house, or having a broadband modem. They all track your usage and report it to the companies. Be smart about what you do and you'll be safe.
For chips that can sniff things, that technology is still pretty far off. Even when it matures, aircraft will not be using it, unless they figure out some way for aircraft to stay in the air without disrupting the air pressure and air speed around them.
Smart meters are a fact of life, they are no different than the cable company putting as cable box in your house, or having a broadband modem. They all track your usage and report it to the companies. Be smart about what you do and you'll be safe.
tnt_blaster
New member
Things must be different across the pond. There are no laws saying you HAVE to have a roof over your head. It's a reasonable society expectation. It is not a law.
Privacy of your records to entities outside of the power company is a contract/agreement between you and the power co when you accept their service. They are obligated to abide by gov't law to turn over your records when requested by an appropriate agency.
And getting off the grid is the ONLY GUARANTEE to privacy you have. You preach about how they are out to get us, then disregard anything that doesn't fit into that dogma.
The fact remains you're using their services, you live by their rules and the reach that comes with it from LEO and other gov't agencies. Don't like it, move, shut the service down, or generate your own power.
You still are hung up that elec service is a right.. it's not. Is it vital, sure. Don't pay that bill and see how fast it goes away. Just like your car, your drivers license... It's a service you pay for.
Ideals? Since when do business need to live up to a sense of ideals? They transmit power, you pay for it. Just because they are required to turn over records during a criminal (or so called) investigation doesn't make it their responsibility to fight it.
You do'nt like it, you need to lobby the gov't in your country. Good luck.
Pay the bill, don't steal. Manage your grow correctly and You'll be fine. Smart meter or not.
Privacy of your records to entities outside of the power company is a contract/agreement between you and the power co when you accept their service. They are obligated to abide by gov't law to turn over your records when requested by an appropriate agency.
And getting off the grid is the ONLY GUARANTEE to privacy you have. You preach about how they are out to get us, then disregard anything that doesn't fit into that dogma.
The fact remains you're using their services, you live by their rules and the reach that comes with it from LEO and other gov't agencies. Don't like it, move, shut the service down, or generate your own power.
You still are hung up that elec service is a right.. it's not. Is it vital, sure. Don't pay that bill and see how fast it goes away. Just like your car, your drivers license... It's a service you pay for.
Ideals? Since when do business need to live up to a sense of ideals? They transmit power, you pay for it. Just because they are required to turn over records during a criminal (or so called) investigation doesn't make it their responsibility to fight it.
You do'nt like it, you need to lobby the gov't in your country. Good luck.
Pay the bill, don't steal. Manage your grow correctly and You'll be fine. Smart meter or not.
Dr. G
Active member
dude seriously so your saying that theres going to be helo copters over our houses one day how could you tell the difference from burning joint or a grow and especially a grow thats well filtered
you think just because you type intellegentally that your not 100% completely insane
you said that it doesnt matter if its a 400w light well my tv is 400w and its on 12 hrs a day my lizard and fish lights are 400w and thats on 12 hrs a day
your being really parinoid
and how the fuck do you think americans pollute more and use more energy who the fuck cares how bout start converting solar wind and water to energy does it still matter then im pretty sure your town runs on a nuclear plant most contries do
have you ever been to america? how bout japan they have a million times more electronics than us
were not a bunch of lazy fat slobs that dont care about anything the people of america have been fighting their government from day one maby you watch too much news have you ever heard of propaganda? maby thats what your pot sniffing devices are you know theres not one certain smell that you can detect in all mj how bout burning mj could you tell me what pot smells like cuz i cannot it mostly smells like other things
why dont you go back to your america hateing conspiricy theory websites we dont want you here
we would like to discuss real concerns we told you you shouldnt worry so much about smart meters and you go off on everyone
y dont you just take our advice already and just use a flop or ruin somthing else at the lights off time if your so concerned
have a great day
you think just because you type intellegentally that your not 100% completely insane
you said that it doesnt matter if its a 400w light well my tv is 400w and its on 12 hrs a day my lizard and fish lights are 400w and thats on 12 hrs a day
your being really parinoid
and how the fuck do you think americans pollute more and use more energy who the fuck cares how bout start converting solar wind and water to energy does it still matter then im pretty sure your town runs on a nuclear plant most contries do
have you ever been to america? how bout japan they have a million times more electronics than us
were not a bunch of lazy fat slobs that dont care about anything the people of america have been fighting their government from day one maby you watch too much news have you ever heard of propaganda? maby thats what your pot sniffing devices are you know theres not one certain smell that you can detect in all mj how bout burning mj could you tell me what pot smells like cuz i cannot it mostly smells like other things
why dont you go back to your america hateing conspiricy theory websites we dont want you here
we would like to discuss real concerns we told you you shouldnt worry so much about smart meters and you go off on everyone
y dont you just take our advice already and just use a flop or ruin somthing else at the lights off time if your so concerned
have a great day
if you are that concerned then level out your power consumption... flip flop flowering areas, and run veg lights 24/0....
Honestly dude,... yeah the cops are becoming more intrusive by the day. Thats why we must become smarter and more elusive everyday.
Also BTW you are more likely to get caught because you announced to the world on a public internet site that you are growing weed. When compiled with your anti government drivel, that you post in the same place... thats what is asking for trouble.
If you were REALLY concerned about smart power meters, you wouldn't be bitching about it on here. Grow more pot before the meter gets installed. Save up enough money to either buy property or rent a nice house. Start new grow from day one at new address. Power usage will remain consistent since service was initiated which won't show any spikes or deviations.
Honestly dude,... yeah the cops are becoming more intrusive by the day. Thats why we must become smarter and more elusive everyday.
Also BTW you are more likely to get caught because you announced to the world on a public internet site that you are growing weed. When compiled with your anti government drivel, that you post in the same place... thats what is asking for trouble.
If you were REALLY concerned about smart power meters, you wouldn't be bitching about it on here. Grow more pot before the meter gets installed. Save up enough money to either buy property or rent a nice house. Start new grow from day one at new address. Power usage will remain consistent since service was initiated which won't show any spikes or deviations.
V
Verger OG
Well, I already gave links to proof these devices are real. Apparently technology is way ahead of you. Like I said, TNO, that you could perhaps say is our version if MIT, is developing these systems, they have been tested and in the news I saw them fly and the cops were really pleased.
It may be a few years off until they go from prototype to a working sniffer, I have no doubt it will be used, perhaps first in known areas of grow houses, that is, certain suburbs etc.
So I just do not understand at all how you ignore these FACTS so easily. Please read my links in my first or second post or something.
V
Verger OG
I think you must be an american, to think all societies define themselves the same way.
I live in a social dictatorship. With that comes a sequence of accepted ways of life that we uphold and wish to guarantee (at a cost of privacy among things) for all citizens. I explained this but I must have failed.
In The Netherlands we feel that in order to live normally, you require electricity. In america things may differ because it is a much harder society where the motto is 'do or die. You work or you fuck off to the gutter.
We do not share that view here. You may see Sicko on that when Moore goes to England or France and acts surprised about our social health care system and how people rarely ever see a hospital or doctors' bill.
In short, we feel that people ahve the right to participate in society in a normal way.
That means thbat if you have debts and low income, you can go to a municipal bank, that will take over your finances and gives you an allowance to live on as they deal with your debts to pay them off. What they will do is make sure you fon't end up in the street. So we feel here that a person has the right to live in a house like a human being. We also feel that it is very NORMAL to be able to use electricity. We have raised the standard of living to include certain things, like electricity.
In america that may not be the case, where a financial personal crisis could actually mean you become a shopping cart pusher and collector of street trash.
I have known people that sold their house to get a bypass there.
So electricity is not a true right in the sense of it being a human right as declared in international treaties. But the reality is that our society is modern and that all houses have electricty and a toilet and water.
And when that has been made a standard of living and you have debts, the special bank will grand you to have these because of that standard. And when these needs are fulfilled, what is left of your income will be used to pay off debts.
So, if we all have that right and agree that electricity is a service we are entitled to enjoy, that also means that you cannot base an argument on the idea that IF you do not like to be tracked and measured and analyzed you should go off grid. Or produce your own power. That would mean a sacrifice that we as a people do nod feel anyone has to subject to out of fear for our own government.
This is a vital definition of our society. Therefore as a Dutch citizen I have the right, by our own definition of society and our mutual agreement of a standard of living, to oppose smart meters as an invasive technology that can be abused to strip away my privacy and sets me up for even more unneeded in-depth insight into my personal life.
To me this is similar to the tv screen in the book 1984, that you cannot turn off but is always watching your behavior.
I cannot turn off a smart meter. People here then suggest that I can, when others find this out, to fool that system with a gadget.
But my principle position is that I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO ILLEGAL THINGS LIKE THAT to protect my privacy. Privacy is my RIGHT. And that is why I wrote that someone in this thread had it backwards.
Your next point about the agreement you sign with a company is not entirely without merit, however, if you take my previous point into account, I will turn out to be a fool if I search for a power company that has a code of conduct wyhere they would promise to respect my privacy even when LEO comes for the data on me.
Because there is NO company that would have such a deal available because they would go against the law with that. So I cannot choose another power company and that comes down to the same thing as above, that we have a right to privacy together with the right to have electricity as a result of our national way of life and mutual agreement that it is normal for a person to enjoy electricity. So the choice is not a choice.
So I should not have to go off grid for guarantees. These guarantees should be systemic to law in a land. They should be constitutional. But in the light of the fear mongering and the Hegellian principles that are being used against their own people by governments, they change laws and the basic fundamental beliefs of society to be able to impose on us an Orwellian nightmare.
Who would not oppose a tv screen that goes two ways inside their home? In chat I got ridicule as someone actually said that ' the screen goes 2 ways'.
Who is ridiculous now? With a smart meter being vanguarded into my house, without my consent or approval, without me having ANY right to oppose it?
I believe it IS the responsibility for power companies to fight it but they have vested interests themselves, to create new products that allow people to have detailed insight into their own power usage and the better and easier it is for consumers to understand it, the more people they get as customer, in this newly liberated market.
Mind you that we have 2 separate entities. We have the grid owner and the electricty seller. So I use Essent's power grid and pay for that and get electricity from a power company that as it were hires capacity on the grid to sell me power.
Essent will be the one installing the meters as they connect to their grid. So they will receive the date and perhaps sell of just move it to my power company that provides me with a product or contract where I can help myself save power.
But I can do that without a smart meter.
We are given choice in power company as well as ISP. But the principle choice is not given, to choose between a smart meter and the old one. We are not given the choice to save power by searching how to do it and using the tips you can find everywhere or to use a smart meters to assist us. We are not given the choice between ISP's storing internet traffic by me or an ISP that does not do that.
Journalists always resist to share their sources of information. They go to court defenind that right, because it is vital to a free democratic society to find information and reveal it.
So wht would not a power company resist? We are all part of the same society and even the CEO of such a company goes home and finds himself analyzed.
He may be CEO but he WILL be forced to accept a smart meter. And of all people HE knows what the problems are and what can fail.
And moving? How american an idea. Where would I move where it is any different?
And again, I should not have to be moving, my rights should be respected as a citizen, they should be guaranteed by constitution and by moral principle.
People just do not understand this anymore it seems. And that scares the fuck out of me.
- Status
