Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[Space Case]

What high value crops though? Cannabis is the only one. My cousins can't make a $1 profit on the flowers they sell, because the worldwide flower market is low. Tomatoes and peppers are much cheaper to grow in Mexico and Central America, then to even grow in a field here, let alone a greenhouse with all these fancy toys.

You modify your soil as best as you can to deal with the water you are getting. If the water you are getting can't properly support the crop you are growing, you change crops, you don't try to modify the water. Why do you think most forage crops grown in the west are alfalfa or something that can tolerate high alkalinity?

In fact, one of the first points that Tiejens makes in his book is that as a farmer, there is very little you have control over, other than the soil mineral content.

 

[led05]

What high value crops though? Cannabis is the only one. My cousins can't make a $1 profit on the flowers they sell, because the worldwide flower market is low. Tomatoes and peppers are much cheaper to grow in Mexico and Central America, then to even grow in a field here, let alone a greenhouse with all these fancy toys.

You modify your soil as best as you can to deal with the water you are getting. If the water you are getting can't properly support the crop you are growing, you change crops, you don't try to modify the water. Why do you think most forage crops grown in the west are alfalfa or something that can tolerate high alkalinity?

In fact, one of the first points that Tiejens makes in his book is that as a farmer, there is very little you have control over, other than the soil mineral content.

Most of the tomatoes around these parts are all local and GH or tunnels / polycarbonate....

Here's an example, I believe these guys are Dutch, originally
http://www.intergrowgreenhouses.com/how-we-grow/


You can taste the difference, are they anywhere near what I grow for myself, year round, of course not but being within a hundred miles or 250 miles is way the FK better than 1500 or 5000 miles in my world on every level, those that care anything about the environment should appreciate this... I personally subscribe to local vs something like say, OMRI, as much as humanly possible....


Water is way easier to fix than your soil, if you've spent all this time fixing your soil and you eff it up with water, well you deserve it then.. Water can screw your soil and I think it's TOO Often overlooked as a key variable which astonishes me.


I am a soil grower, I know the owners of the largest local quarry and they have good product which is nice, the soil in these parts is good also which is nice... (silt loam, some places Shale Silt Loam which can be a very nice thing with all that carbon )

I've spent a deal of time out there in Boulder / Nederland etc - have a fair chunk of change invested in some of those places.... Everytime I go out I'm amazed at how bad some folks water is, especially the Fe in the mountains (above 8K feet) - if they went with it, man would their plants pay the price.....

Kind of like your guys uranium, that just sucks and is crazy !

 

[jidoka]

Led...do you use soil or feed salts to lightweight media? Do you use fertilizers designed to control pH like the big flower gh

Edit. My bad I see now

 

[led05]

Tomato GH

Tomato GH

This is where cannabis will head, is it my cup of tea, not at all but I can also read them tea leaves as they say, guy seems to do it right IMO, if doing it with Hydro....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeIPyuXPEyE

If you're not thinking this is the competition or will be, soon then you're going to get wiped out unless your angle is ubber premium and local and you've built a following, even then, not sure how long.....

 

[Space Case]

Most of the tomatoes around these parts are all local and GH or tunnels / polycarbonate....

Here's an example, I believe these guys are Dutch, originally
http://www.intergrowgreenhouses.com/how-we-grow/


You can taste the difference, are they anywhere near what I grow for myself, year round, of course not but being within a hundred miles or 250 miles is way the FK better than 1500 or 5000 miles in my world on every level, those that care anything about the environment should appreciate this... I personally subscribe to local vs something like say, OMRI, as much as humanly possible....

Most of our produce is grown in California or Mexico. Over 90% of it at that. Locally produced greenhouse tomatoes and peppers represent a very small market share.

Commercial tomatoes that are picked to ship are picked green. If they even show even a little red color, they are called "pinkies" and are thrown back into the field. Then they get gassed with ethylene when they arrive at their destination to force them to ripped before being sold. So you can taste the difference because locally sold tomatoes will usually be picked at a more ripe time. But all that grodan in thoses greenhouses going into a landfill is pretty impressive though! And I'm sure their environmental controls don't use any non-renewable energy...

Water is way easier to fix than your soil, if you've spent all this time fixing your soil and you eff it up with water, well you deserve it then.. Water can screw your soil and I think it's TOO Often overlooked as a key variable which astonishes me.

Its really not though, thats what this whole thread and conversation about balancing soil minerals is about. We have been strongly taking into account water sources since the start of this conversation. The average grower can't even balance soil if their water is 0ppm. And a $9 bag of gypsum is way cheaper than a $3500 RO machine thats gonna dump 6000 gallons a day of even saltier water down my hill and into the local watershed. You think a farmer in Mexico that just has 40 guys out there working with hand tools is gonna bother to adjust his water? He'll just increase his NPK values until he sees enough of a response.

I've spent a deal of time out there in Boulder / Nederland etc - have a fair chunk of change invested in some of those places.... Everytime I go out I'm amazed at how bad some folks water is, especially the Fe in the mountains (above 8K feet) - if they went with it, man would their plants pay the price.....

Kind of like your guys uranium, that just sucks and is crazy !

The uranium issues I was talking about were in that exact area of the foothills, actually. The wells are quite bad up there, partially because the sheer amount of people pulling water out of those mountains. The irrigation and well water there can have a high content of Mg, Fe, CO3, and Hydrogen Sulfide. On a well, in those foothills, not much you can really do, but that isn't really an agricultural area at all. Small indoor grows would need RO, but thats not what we are talking about here, and thats not where the legal market is headed. It can snow in June or September in Nederland, nobody is growing large outdoor plants up there. Places like Nederland, or Oakland for that matter, won't be the meccas for indoor grows as prices continue to fall and investors continue to look at it as an economy of scale. But all that shit runs down hill, and the fields in Berthoud, Fort Collins, Greeley, all look pretty damn green to me....and thats where cannabis is headed, to the ag areas, and as prices drop, your inputs will need to keep up. If you have to filter your water, why even grow there? Sell and buy land where you can actually grow your crop, or don't grow that crop.

 

[Space Case]

This is where cannabis will head, is it my cup of tea, not at all but I can also read them tea leaves as they say, guy seems to do it right IMO, if doing it with Hydro....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeIPyuXPEyE

If you're not thinking this is the competition or will be, soon then you're going to get wiped out unless your angle is ubber premium and local and you've built a following, even then, not sure how long.....

This is already where cannabis is now, not the future. Good luck with your VPD on that building.

 

[jidoka]

Led...in soil what base cation saturations do you shoot for?

 

[led05]

Led...in soil what base cation saturations do you shoot for?

slo's advice for soil is good advice, he knows his shit, it's why I'm here.....

I'm not a VPD guy, guy, it's one of many factors, you know like Soil, Water, temperature, humidity etc...

I understand this is a soil thread but I believe water is intricately linked to it and was trying to answer a few questions posed here, earlier...

The same small groups of people in these forums love to gather together and bully and it's funny because I think many of us less frequent posters, or those who don't need to pound their chests daily watch this in amazement, I know I do.


Today was the first time in months I've had any free time and spent way too much of it here, hopefully I helped maybe at least one person...


Keep buying your shit from half way around the world, I'll keep pushing to make as much as possible local, local - Them tomatoes are picked red pal and shipped w/in 24 hours mainly to customers the same day and on shelves within 48 hours - that is the point....

I grow citrus here too, if there was a way to do it commercially, I would but I'll keep on trying - what are you doing, trying to make as much on this sacred plant, while you still can, ever feel dirty about that?

Later

 

[jidoka]

Not arguing...just asking. Thank you

 

[led05]

Not arguing...just asking. Thank you

it wasn't in anyway directed at you, just the first sentence, sorry

 

[led05]

Most of our produce is grown in California or Mexico. Over 90% of it at that. Locally produced greenhouse tomatoes and peppers represent a very small market share.

Commercial tomatoes that are picked to ship are picked green. If they even show even a little red color, they are called "pinkies" and are thrown back into the field. Then they get gassed with ethylene when they arrive at their destination to force them to ripped before being sold. So you can taste the difference because locally sold tomatoes will usually be picked at a more ripe time. But all that grodan in thoses greenhouses going into a landfill is pretty impressive though! And I'm sure their environmental controls don't use any non-renewable energy...

That particular GH operation for Tomatoes I linked, a few things, you couldn't be more wrong btw...

They catch near all their water on their roofs either via rain or snow, it does both of those a lot around here

When they need heat they use Nat Gas and pump byproduct aka Co2 into their GH and well I imagine the water vapor helps too... go figure...

They also use biofuels for heaters and use their own trucks and drive relatively local....

Their tomatoes are also not sprayed with Ethylene, that's once again kind of the whole point...

Not everything is from the Valley, Driscolls or Mexico, you west coast guys live in a bubble sometimes

 

[orechron]

Led, what sort of base distributions do you like though?

Here's a decent sized greenhouse:
https://www.instagram.com/genefinderog/

I appreciate the scale and work that goes into something like this but many of his mature flowers are looking like they are lacking serious weight. He also has a section of the greenhouse where he's doing organic beds with what looks like peat based media. I can't tell how well those have done compared to his main production.

 

[Space Case]

Not everything is from the Valley, Driscolls or Mexico, you west coast guys live in a bubble sometimes

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/explainer/2013/07/california_grows_all_of_our_fruits_and_vegetables_what_would_we_eat_without.html

California produces a sizable majority of many American fruits, vegetables, and nuts: 99 percent of artichokes, 99 percent of walnuts, 97 percent of kiwis, 97 percent of plums, 95 percent of celery, 95 percent of garlic, 89 percent of cauliflower, 71 percent of spinach, and 69 percent of carrots (and the list goes on and on). Some of this is due to climate and soil. No other state, or even a combination of states, can match California’s output per acre. Lemon yields in California, for example, are more than 50 percent higher than in Arizona. California spinach yield per acre is 60 percent higher than the national average. Without California, supply of all these products in the United States and abroad would dip, and in the first few years, a few might be nearly impossible to find. Orchard-based products in particular, such as nuts and some fruits, would take many years to spring back.

 

[led05]

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...and_vegetables_what_would_we_eat_without.html

I agree wholeheartedly, that without cali food would look very different in this country, world, that is for sure.... It wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was saying there's room for and an existing and rapidly growing local focus on what is possible to be produced locally and that stuff tastes way better, is better nutritionally etc etc...

Relying on Ca to do all that is silly and the salt buildup throughout the state is disgusting, thank god you guys got some rain this past season - not for those flooded out people...

People should try and eat more local and seasonally but that is hard, so is growing most of what you consume but many of us do just that and thrive doing so....

Cannabis is a unique crop and isn't consumed at the rate anywhere near food is... Thus quality can / will always be a focus for many and control of that quality I believe, IMHO, will led indoors aka GH.....

Within a GH you control all you can, if you use soil you control that too.... I hate hydro, as I mentioned before, not my cup of tea...

 

[led05]

Led, what sort of base distributions do you like though?

Here's a decent sized greenhouse:
https://www.instagram.com/genefinderog/

I appreciate the scale and work that goes into something like this but many of his mature flowers are looking like they are lacking serious weight. He also has a section of the greenhouse where he's doing organic beds with what looks like peat based media. I can't tell how well those have done compared to his main production.

I don't grow this plant in a GH. I grow other things in GH's and believe this plant will lead there and already is / has... I actually think more temperate locations with a GH blend of sunshine and lighting is a sweet spot as it allows for much cheaper controls of cooling, humidity etc.... heating it is easy in comparison... and I think this plant sans extremes in any direction is what it likes most, you know like most plants, temperate GH regions allow for this control more easily.... who knows where it goes, maybe it'll all be in Maui outside or similar, I've been to Kapalua 2x's and it's my favorite place on Earth ;0

I've looked a bit into GW GH operations, Tweeds in Ont and thought their plants looked light too, clearly the science isn't there enough yet or the dialing but I believe it's working itself that way... Year round growing has it's perks though too and sunlight hours that are favorable to flowering....

I've done a lot w peppers, peppers more than any vegetable I've ever grown Fkin rely on Ca - I also know this plant well and have for a long time and Slows focus on Ca and CEC in this thread coupled with my experience with Peppers kind of brought me here and piqued my interests...

Are their really GH operations as we speak the size of the one I linked to , I haven't heard / seen of one yet...? I'd think the Feds might get a little horny over something like that....

 

[caterpillar710]

Lotta activity in this thread too much went on too fast to keep up. Y'all need some tractor seat time

 

[HappyTreeFarm]

it doesn't have to be RO, the water has to able to be used and not throw everything else out of whack.

I bet they are using something to treat along the way or after they mix and calculating things so the nutrient mix balanced with the soil or whatever medium is used.

The point wasn't that RO is the end all and savior (for many smaller ops though it is the logical fix if your water is effed), the point I was trying to make is the water you use is just as important as the soil as they are one in the same (i.e. water & soil management are both equally critical) ... If you don't have good controls of your water source then you're wasting your time on the soil/medium as it's going to change it and you'll be chasing your tail, especially if your water has swings (wells, irrigation creeks etc)....

I'm sorry if this wasn't clear, I suck at getting my point across.....

Thanks for your replies and thoughts, there appreciated !

Have you done a water test? if so share it here, we can help you figure out what will help your specific situation.

I was annoyed with all those ranting posts back and forth all day, took me like 20-30 minutes to read through all your guys BS, but the pictures and GH are always cool to check out. here is what canada is doing.......https://youtu.be/OxrSGi5TkXw

 

[reppin2c]

RO=no till=gypsum....It'll fix anything lol

Also with where this plant is going is that every tom dick and Harry will have a few plants in they're backyard trying to supplement they're income low balling with a bunch of shit weed. But hey that's just what it looks like from CO

 

[Space Case]

I agree with HB there. Hard to beat well grown late summer harvest dep bud! Some of my favorite. Looks and smokes like indoor but with sungrown potency!

 

[caterpillar710]

There won't be any industry standard there's guys like c4 farms that dep an acre of PVC hoops and then there's Sunday goods / willcox farms in a 10 acre glasshouse