Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[orechron]

So I'll use a cup of "soil" as in mineral based stuff from outside? Use that as the reference to compare the density of my medium to the density of actual soil. Then we can adjust numbers accordingly?

Yes, field soil weighs maybe 2000lbs/yard and the stuff we are using between 500-1500lbs/yard. You'll end up using less than the Rx.

I spoke with Bill McKibben at one point and he suggested that I may need as much as twice the amendments as prescribed using a normal soil analysis. Oh ya I go his book too. He shoulda made this sumbitch spiral-bound like Astera did and I'd look at it more. Slow make sure your's is spiral bound when you write it. Laminated too so you can wipe the hash off.

What analysis was he talking about? With Calcium it will probably end up being more than what a lab would recommend.

Orechron

Astera and I still talk through Pm's? What are you talking about man? Your panties in a bunch again?

When has a post by you ever gotten my panties in a bunch?

All I said was Kraidy's name was in the original copy and I have seen it with my own eyes, effectively catching Astera in a lie. That was where I came in, and Astera and I have had many conversations since. He stopped posted because he was getting proved wrong, Fact, by you and Slow and has a book and reputation to keep afloat. Not sure where you came up with me booting him from the forums, but why not, I seem to be your little black sheep on the forums here......... Lame. I got big shoulders though.

Don't be so quick to play a victim. What you just said reinforced my point about him leaving. Clearly, everyone knows that you don't have moderator power to actually boot him. He left for the reason I stated.

I even offered to have a grow off. Astera numbers vs Kraidy numbers. He never responded, and from what I can tell, has only done one field test with higher Ca before poo pooing it. I am going to give the Kraidy method a shot, as I have already shot for Albrect numbers in the past.

You're confusing my bringing up yours and Kraidy's exposure of Astera as some sort of insult, like I was picking on you. It was meant to acknowledge his exposure as a compliment. Moreover, I'm sure there might be people on the forum that know Astera in real life but it doesn't seem like any of us here are his friends or have allegiance to him. I know Slow's comment to me about my "buddy" Astera wasn't literal. I elaborated on it because I don't want people to think I have an allegiance to him. I pulled from his text what was useful.

 

[Wendull C.]

What's up with the grow contest? I need a reason to spend a month hunting Blacktails and going to the emerald cup.

 

[HillMizer]

What analysis was he talking about? With Calcium it will probably end up being more than what a lab would recommend.

It was a lab from last spring. First page of my signature. I think he was saying the same thing as you.

That you need MORE with the lighter medium. At the time I thought he might be mistaken because I was thinking about that Mass of amendment to mass of medium ratio would get thrown the wrong way. I'm still not clear

I had Bill Mckibben and Jeremy Silva both make prescriptions for me. It's so funny, Bill was a little more cautious about making prescriptions for the high peat soil for an expensive product. His apprehension led me to use Jeremy's instead who works with Canna folks all the time. Both really good dudes. These days I would have used Bill's rec that included Gypsum, copper sulfate amd borax over the basalt rock dust method!

To be clear I'm trying to never be down on anyone or their methods. When I use someone's name I'm not trying to shit talk them. Yall can have your opinions but I think a lot of folks are just doing what they know to do based on their individual experiences in life. Somedays I actually believe in people.

I'll try to get to some science today. I'll get some acid and get some soil samples screened and drying. It's rain-ageddon in Cali again! Maybe I'll build the pond this year.

 

[orechron]

No big deal, Hazy. It wasn't a bad thing how the Astera thing went down.

Mizer, sorry what I said was confusing. I meant that lighter mixes will still require fewer amendments compared to clay, and that more calcium means more than a typical prescription for even light mixes because most of us shoot for higher calcium saturation.

 

[jidoka]

[QUOTE

I have to deal with these guys on a regular basis and I don't appreciate the way you tried to deal with the lab PERIOD. So if you feel a bit bad about me telling you that you are wrong, I apologize. But read what you wrote.

I thought you changed nicks because you were tired of so many people asking for help?[/QUOTE]

Riddle me this batman...was I wrong questioning their use of a supposed 1 gram scoop vs weighing 2.5 grams and 25 ml of soln. Am I wrong questioning them saying no such thing as more than 3000 ppm Ca in any soil...ever, in the history of mankind, no matter how much peat is in it.

Was that embarrassing, asking them the truth. Damn...I am not sorry.

And please don't deflect you whiny ass little bitch. I aint fucking with you any more.

Answer the 3000 ppm question...or not...and somehow I bet you dont

 

[cannascholar]

Hey Slow, thanks for mentioning Maui's high Ca soils, it was noticeable during my recent visit after trying the local produce. Dense, shiny, and extremely crunchy.

Been trying to work my native soil which is very rocky, slightly acid(5.8) and high in aluminum(968ppm) but has still produced nice plants in several trials. Currently applied over 200lb dolomite, 100lb gypsum and rock phosphate, and some compost, micros, etc over 2,400 sq ft. Would like to use Ca silicate however I do not have a local source.

Also included in test is fresh mendo mix(Coco), some used Roots 707 soil, and CC mound ( mendo mix, bio ag, and native).

Will post some updated tests soon after the near flooding rains subside.

 

[oct]

Daunting for a n00b like me tho.

I gave up. I suck at math and I have a hard time understanding science. I was permanently removed from science during tenth grade for taking a lizard out of its aquarium and letting it bite another students earlobe.

No test for me this year. Turn my cover crop in, add some kelp, fish bones, and a few other things. soluble feeds and top dresses here and there. I do think its awesome that people are way into studying soil and dedicated, it's just not a productive thing for me to be spending my time doing.

 

[plantingplants]

No test for me this year. Turn my cover crop in, add some kelp, fish bones, and a few other things. soluble feeds and top dresses here and there. I do think its awesome that people are way into studying soil and dedicated, it's just not a productive thing for me to be spending my time doing.

To be fair, I would probably spend a lot less time doing this if I was yielding more than 4 lbs a plant

Makes me wonder tho- shcrews pulled 8 lb avg from fresh coots which is NOT perfect soil. Maybe I just need to get more coots volume, RO my shit water to eliminate that variable, and try again with a better start.

I guess what I'm tryin to say is, why mess with success?

 

[HillMizer]

To be fair, I would probably spend a lot less time doing this if I was yielding more than 4 lbs a plant

Makes me wonder tho- shcrews pulled 8 lb avg from fresh coots which is NOT perfect soil. Maybe I just need to get more coots volume, RO my shit water to eliminate that variable, and try again with a better start.

I guess what I'm tryin to say is, why mess with success?

You ever seen where the horizon is at shcrews place? He's a good farmer, but he's got a lot of sun. At the end of the season when the sun gets low that can make a big difference. That's when you'll see other peoples smaller plants cruise right on by
yours. You don't have a lot correct?

I understand not studying the science if you should be doing something else.
You can pay an agronomist to write a prescription if you need to and at least make sure some of your bases are covered. A soil analysis and prescription will cost you about one ounce @ wholesale price.

Liebig's law of the minimum states that growth is controlled not by the total amount of resources but is limited by the scarcest resource.

[/IMG]

 

[slownickel]

Hey Slow, thanks for mentioning Maui's high Ca soils, it was noticeable during my recent visit after trying the local produce. Dense, shiny, and extremely crunchy.

Been trying to work my native soil which is very rocky, slightly acid(5.8) and high in aluminum(968ppm) but has still produced nice plants in several trials. Currently applied over 200lb dolomite, 100lb gypsum and rock phosphate, and some compost, micros, etc over 2,400 sq ft. Would like to use Ca silicate however I do not have a local source.

Also included in test is fresh mendo mix(Coco), some used Roots 707 soil, and CC mound ( mendo mix, bio ag, and native).

Will post some updated tests soon after the near flooding rains subside.

Lay off the dolomite, use calcium carbonate, calcium nitrate and once you are at pH of 6.2 or so, add gypsum at early veg and then again at early flowering. You will need to add K.

You don't have enough P (according to this lab, which I detest) to grow much of anything if compared to your K.

Anything below 2000 ppm of Ca using M3 means you will never come close to a nutrient dense soil....

 

[slownickel]

How many pages precentage wise of said book would be about gypsum?

Not that many actually. The rest of the issues after getting you all into Ca are a bit more complex.

 

[slownickel]

You ever seen where the horizon is at shcrews place? He's a good farmer, but he's got a lot of sun. At the end of the season when the sun gets low that can make a big difference. That's when you'll see other peoples smaller plants cruise right on by
yours. You don't have a lot correct?

I understand not studying the science if you should be doing something else.
You can pay an agronomist to write a prescription if you need to and at least make sure some of your bases are covered. A soil analysis and prescription will cost you about one ounce @ wholesale price.

Liebig's law of the minimum states that growth is controlled not by the total amount of resources but is limited by the scarcest resource.
View Image]View Image[/URL]

Going to have to redraw that barrel. Calcium is nearly always the place that folks aren't even close...

 

[slownickel]

I think the Sulfur has to be from the from Gypsum. I think the dical is working, that phos+cal bond has to be broken though. I tried to read about it, lower ph really helps with the breakdown. Dical is not a popular garden amendment but I believe in it.


10% seems like a great number. What about no lime next time? Just dical and gypsum.

You got a mouthful of gypsum in that sample, that's all.

 

[orechron]

To be fair, I would probably spend a lot less time doing this if I was yielding more than 4 lbs a plant

Makes me wonder tho- shcrews pulled 8 lb avg from fresh coots which is NOT perfect soil. Maybe I just need to get more coots volume, RO my shit water to eliminate that variable, and try again with a better start.

I guess what I'm tryin to say is, why mess with success?

Shcrews also has a bunch of people helping him. By that I mean support on the forum. His plants were much smaller this year because his soil was out of whack. I think he added gypsum when he should've added potassium sulfate and micros.

If I were you I wouldn't settle for a larger volume of coots. I'd shoot for a larger volume of custom, balanced stuff at the same or cheaper price point. It's doable. Something like 20% or less compost, 20-30% aeration, 50-60% topsoil. The topsoil part may be the most difficult. Start scouting now.

I gave up. I suck at math and I have a hard time understanding science. I was permanently removed from science during tenth grade for taking a lizard out of its aquarium and letting it bite another students earlobe.

No test for me this year. Turn my cover crop in, add some kelp, fish bones, and a few other things. soluble feeds and top dresses here and there. I do think its awesome that people are way into studying soil and dedicated, it's just not a productive thing for me to be spending my time doing.

Dude, send in tests at least. Send the analysis my way.

 

[plantingplants]

Mizer, did you wash the gyp thru your soil after amending and before testing? Lol i couldn't sleep last night thinking about soil and I realized I tested my fresh mix last year before it had been wetted thru. Things are bound to change once everything goes into solution, no? SN is always saying 'add gyp then wash it through'. Bcs will change and some ca and k will leach, right?

But you guys are right, he has a massive amount of sun and I get like 8-9 hrs and yea it's worse in the fall. Really need a better spot.

As far as the soil, I'm trying to figure that out. BAS has test results for the oly mt compost. It's PACKED with na, fe, p, k, and mg. I agree- need more like 10% compost but yes the topsoil is an issue. I need to call RE.

Thanks

 

[slownickel]

Shcrews also has a bunch of people helping him. By that I mean support on the forum. His plants were much smaller this year because his soil was out of whack. I think he added gypsum when he should've added potassium sulfate and micros.

Here is a very important issue. When????? When gypsum, when potassium, when micros....

Orch, when exactly did Shcrews go wrong? At flowering? Too late into flowering?

 

[oct]

@Orech: Thanks man. I'll keep that in mind.

@plantingplants: I've been farming 6-7 years so I have a decent amount of in-field experience. First soil test I ever got was last year. If I ever broke ground on a new location I would be testing asap though. I just have a pretty good idea of what I'm working with after this amount of time.

 

[orechron]

Here is a very important issue. When????? When gypsum, when potassium, when micros....

Orch, when exactly did Shcrews go wrong? At flowering? Too late into flowering?

I think I didn't bother saying when because the potassium sulfate application just never happened, same with micros. Every year he gets that weird leaf curl. The first year people were screaming broad mites, but Backyardfarmer and Milkyjoe knew better and diagnosed it a micronutrient issue, likely Zn.

Shcrews had plenty of calcium, which is why the flowers filled out so well and his test numbers are good, but they were all dwarf plants compared to the previous year. His grow is a good display of the other end of the balance spectrum. Most people don't have enough Ca and too much K, then suffer fungal pressure and poor quality. He took his hit on yield instead.

The timing of gypsum applications you're talking about make sense. Entering flower the plants need a shit ton of calcium, but they still need 6% K. Mid way through you need more K to fill the flowers.

I do micros all the way through. I also like using micro sulfates in conjunction with gypsum, especially when my soil at 6.6 or higher.

 

[plantingplants]

SlowNickel, your fertilization strategy is based on keeping CEC low-ish and using gypsum to 'make space' for fertilization. How does that strategy change with a higher CEC? Do you just have to make wide turns? Ie, more fertilizer, earlier, in anticipation of different nutrient needs during the season?

 

[slownickel]

SlowNickel, your fertilization strategy is based on keeping CEC low-ish and using gypsum to 'make space' for fertilization. How does that strategy change with a higher CEC? Do you just have to make wide turns? Ie, more fertilizer, earlier, in anticipation of different nutrient needs during the season?

The turns become huge guy.... to sway the CEC becomes a monster task.... Plus the higher CEC means you have to learn how to irrigate slower and know when NOT to put on water.....

The key to making this happen is 2000 ppm of Calcium in your soil using [email protected] and having that 2000 ppm of Calcium represent 80-85% Ca. That is approximately a CEC of 12-14. With alkaline water, I would aim at a medium pH of 6.1 to 6.3 and to get that % of Ca use gypsum.