Self Pollination vs Cubing Process???? why cube?

[englishrick]

the main problem that i want to point out is that every cannabis breeder seems to only use dioecious XY males in crosses,,,,,,every cannabis breeder wants to avoid monotonous plants,,,,

^^^this is not cool with me,,,,,,imo, everyone should not be doing the same thing,,


i believe some of the oldest landrace tend to have alot of monotonous specimines within there populations,,,this is more oviouse when we grow landrace indoors in a hydoponic medium, with landrace indoors we usaly see females express extreem intersexed traits,,,

i believe some of the polen producers are actualy XX chromozone in Landrace seedlines,,an they do this naturaly for a good reason,,,,,when we make hybrid we change things with our Selction`s and Ne,,,,,,,,,,,,hack breeders dont allow the seedline any sort of XX breeding

only these newish "overly-woked hybrids" seem to have true dioecious progeny,,,

i dont think evey breeder should be selecting XY for every polen donor

 

[englishrick]

we're lowering the ratio of males to females due to femmed seed and fem breeding techniques.

this is my point,,,higher ratio of females in the population = more divercity

but usaly when breeders come to making an outcross they restrict themseves to XY polen,,,,silly if you ask me

 

[AWoll]

this sub-dioecious idea intrigues me as many strains tend to throw nanners late in flower if not seeded

great thread...looking to learn more about the subject
minus stress conditions does anyone know about inbreeding depression: heres an article about that and selfing

http://www.faculty.uaf.edu/ffnt/research/node1.html

could that cause to throw banannas? We have Chemdog/sour diesels and had sour queens a while back that threw yellows. is it in the genetics? or this inbreeding deppression? minus of course stress from conditions... cause on seperate occassions did not find any with other strains in same conditions
any input would be great. not dogging any breeders
AWoll

 

[darwinsbulldog]

yeah well that's it, most breeders don't want monoecious plants so they select heavily against it because by using females who naturally show male flowers to pollinate other females they're selecting for a trait that for growers of sinsemilla really really don't want. so more breeders will probably get on the feminized seed band wagon and start using chemically induced male traits in females to cross pollinate, instead of just selfing plants etc, that's what i'll hopefully be doing. because yeah it seems it would have the best results at least on paper. what one needs to find are females who can show intersex traits and produce male flowers but don't do it under normal conditions and really require chemical induction for it to occur at all, this way the average grower though owning a plant with the ability to go monoecious will never realise it or have issues with male flowers.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

great thread...looking to learn more about the subject
minus stress conditions does anyone know about inbreeding depression: heres an article about that and selfing

http://www.faculty.uaf.edu/ffnt/research/node1.html

could that cause to throw banannas? We have Chemdog/sour diesels and had sour queens a while back that threw yellows. is it in the genetics? or this inbreeding deppression? minus of course stress from conditions... cause on seperate occassions did not find any with other strains in same conditions
any input would be great. not dogging any breeders
AWoll

pretty much all female plants are able to throw bananas as you say, it's pretty rare to find a female that is 100% female without any ability to throw male flowers, so it's not necessarily a result of inbreeding or inbreeding depression. it's part of the plants genes. BUT inbreeding plants that throw bananas will increase this trait in the progeny if you're not selecting against it. inbreeding isn't the cause of it, but it can exacerbate it. so the best thing to do is choose the females you have that show the least or no male flowers and use them to breed/inbreed/outbreed with. those will pass on genes to other plants that will then be less likely to throw bananas. if you continue the process you'll end up with a strong line that should avoid monoecy (showing male flowers). hope that helps.

if you had enough space and time and resources, you could use the chemicals that are used to induce male flowers in females to fine PURE females, those who even after being treated with the chemicals don't show male flowers, and then use them to breed with and you theoretically should NEVER have any bananas thrown because of progeny will no have the male traits in their genes and thus are unable to form the flowers under any environment.

darwin

 

[englishrick]

when we cross a monoecious spicimine with a dioecious specimine the ratios of dioecious to monoecious go to 50:50,,,cannabis is sub-dioecious naturaly,,,,,,could breeders be upseting the equlibrium by selecting so hevily against monoecious plants??,,

im wondering what damage [if any] are we doing to our genepool when we select so heavily against monoecious females and this is exactly what we have done recently with indoor hybrids,,,modern breeders select only "true males" and inbreed with small Ne numbers...

stricly M/F breeding is not my style

imo monoecious females seem to be natural mechinism in the nature of cannabis,,,,an modern breeders are simply turning there noses up at them,,

basicly im trying to say "we need feminization"



an yeh,,,,every female needs the ability to produce polen chemicly!!!,,,thats a must!!

 

[darwinsbulldog]

it's not so much upsetting the balance, or damage that we're doing to the gene pool, there's no "correct" way the gene pool should be, we do to it what we want for the reasons we want - selection, the 50-50 balance may not be in the breeders best interests so thus it would be out of balance for him, he'd want it at a different ratio closer to 100-0 i'm guessing. damage i guess can be seen as poor selection resulting in poor fitness in offspring but at the end of the day because we're not playing with the wild populations what does it matter? and even if we tried to play with the wild pops we'd probably have a huge difficulty changing anything dramatically, at the end of the day the fittest survive so if we cause "damage" to the gene pool, lowering the average fitness anywhere it'll right itself within a generation or two max!

M/F matings are the natural way for cannabis, that's how it's evolved, that's why the majority of the individuals in the wild are dioecious. though a small number can be monoecious this is perhaps just evidence of their ancestral state and because it isn't having any negative affect on the wild populations (it might if it were much more common all of a sudden), it's not naturally selected against and thus persists through time.

i see it in that there's no right or wrong here, nature's done a pretty good job so far with the M/F style matings, so if you choose to employ that then you'll do just fine. BUT employing M/M style matings will give you an advantage and for breeding purposes can be seen as better than M/F, but that's not to say the entire species in the wild and not would be better off with or without either mating system. but yeah by selecting for M/M matings you'll always have monoecious genes in there, and "hermies" will persist. i'm just hoping there're individuals out there who're really resilient to stresses and don't throw male flowers UNLESS chemically induced, they're the ones you want to select for.

 

[englishrick]

Cheese is that clone bro,,,,never a reversal without chemicals,,,ive grown it 100`s of times in heavy stress and shes solid as a rock!!

i wouldnt think twice about hitting my Cheese clone with a high quality monoecious specimine ,,,,,the ratios would be 50:50,,selecting away would be easy,,,no?

yeh man,,,weed is what you make of it

 

[CFP65]

well here is a little update on the "male"

iwe set it besides some colacans to illustrate the hight, and another thing i should mention is that right now in my country its mid summer at 55.lat and that is atleast 18 hours of light, and the plant never went from preflower to veg and then into flower as you see it here, it just showed flowers and went straight into flower Auto style like, its sisters from the same batch have not even showed preflower yet.
to morrow it will be removed from the garden and be placed on my balcony, to avoid any accidental pollination from it on any of my other plants, the flowers here shown fully open does not contain any pollen that i can see, i have picked them off, and no pollen in them. anyways they are the first to open so pollen could turn out later.
anyways here is the pics.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

ha! sounds like an awesome specimen, definitely give it a go and see what you get, at the end of the day the worst that will happen is you'll end up with a heap of less fit specimens you'll cull before the next round, best outcome, you'll have bugger all you have to cull!

Cheese is that clone bro,,,,never a reversal without chemicals,,,ive grown it 100`s of times in heavy stress and shes solid as a rock!!

i wouldnt think twice about hitting my Cheese clone with a high quality monoecious specimine ,,,,,the ratios would be 50:50,,selecting away would be easy,,,no?

yeh man,,,weed is what you make of it

 

[darwinsbulldog]

well here is a little update on the "male"

iwe set it besides some colacans to illustrate the hight, and another thing i should mention is that right now in my country its mid summer at 55.lat and that is atleast 18 hours of light, and the plant never went from preflower to veg and then into flower as you see it here, it just showed flowers and went straight into flower Auto style like, its sisters from the same batch have not even showed preflower yet.
to morrow it will be removed from the garden and be placed on my balcony, to avoid any accidental pollination from it on any of my other plants, the flowers here shown fully open does not contain any pollen that i can see, i have picked them off, and no pollen in them. anyways they are the first to open so pollen could turn out later.
anyways here is the pics.

thanks for the update on it all CFP65, still pretty puzzling... if the other plants aren't showing any sign of preflowering you may not have to worry about separating them as there'll be no flowers for that male to pollinate should he produce pollen soon. or just pick of any pollen sacks and store the pollen from them. thing is even if you move it away to the other side of the house, it will most likely still be able to pollinate the other plants if they were flowering, wind would carry the millions of pollen everywhere so a few would definitely hit home. put it inside if you're really worried about it, or the girls you don't want pollinated inside. anyway nice pics they look like they were taken in nice light! keep us updated with it all

darwin

 

[CFP65]

thanks, what i will do is take the plant to my balcony as its about 1km away from the garden, and have the male, and at the moment the first real pollen comes out i will chop the main top and put in a glass of water and collect it, to make a maual pollination, on a select branch in my tent, the tent has 14 The White going at week 3 in flower now so it should fit nicely.

one thing i dont understand, if the chromosomes are inactive, and the expression is controlled by the autosomes, can there be any viable pollen?
or will the resulting seeds be with inactive chromosomes too?

Update from this afternoon
did not want to post twice but here is a pic of the first of the double seeds that germinated
the second half of the seed must now have germinated.
the label have been added a 1. because i have one more germination on a double seed more

 

[Guest423]

I'm sure The White and Kromes Triangle are the same.

 

[gettitreal]

why is the "male" in a small pot and all the others are in big pots? Its root bound.

Maybe if it had free media to root into, the "male S1" would throw pistils and you wouldnt have to go to the extent of making seeds and testing the progeny for males??

 

[CFP65]

To ansver that i will have to show you a pic of my garden. although this is about 10 days old

its not that i would not like to keep alot of males, in bigger pots, but space is limited and what you see here is just some of it i have been producing seedplants for the guerilla here too.
so everything is a bit jiggzaw like

the "male is now standing at the balcony where it will end its days and be given Biobizz nutrients, it does spread pollen that i collect, and it will hit a Autoflower thing i made + a select branch of a S1 - a motherclone and finally a select branch of the plant you see at the upper left corner wich is a CFP Foundation 09

 

[englishrick]

can someone please explain the genetic difference between monoecious specimines and hemaphrodite`s,,,??

 

[darwinsbulldog]

Hermaphrodite - A plant that has only bisexual reproductive units (flowers, conifer cones, or functionally equivalent structures). In angiosperm terminology a synonym is monoclinous from the Greek "one bed".

Monoecious - an individual that has both male and female reproductive units (flowers, conifer cones, or functionally equivalent structures) on the same plant; from Greek for "one household". Individuals bearing separate flowers of both sexes at the same time are called simultaneously or synchronously monoecious. Individuals that bear flowers of one sex at one time are called consecutively monoecious; plants may first have single sexed flowers and then later have flowers of the other sex. Protoandrous describes individuals that function first as males and then change to females; protogynous describes individuals that function first as females and then change to males.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_sexuality

monoecious = plants with two different types of flowers, male and female organs on separate flowers.
hermaphrodites = plants with one type of flower, male and female organs on same flower.

 

[englishrick]

that is the aesthetic differences ,,,, but are the genetic difference?,,,,,

is there a difference in the chromozones??

 

[darwinsbulldog]

ahh sorry my apologies. i'd say that there has to be genetic differences for it to occur. it's no environmental so it has to be genetic. i'm unsure if there're are really closely related species where one is monoecious and one is hermaphroditic, it would be interesting to research. but the number of chromosomes isn't going to be the reason, though most likely case is that there will be a difference in chromosome number (genome) between the species simply because they will have evolved separately for long enough for that difference to accrue.

i believe, though i'm not 100% sure, that monoecy is the ancestral state of angiosperms (feel free to correct me if i'm wrong anyone) and that dioecy and hermaphroditism have evolved from ancestral angiosperms that were monoecious. natural selection would have favoured hermaphrodites (those who can reproduce with themselves in a healthy manner, as well as with others) whenever they occurred through mutation and in the other direction where plants who weren't able to self in a healthy manner (non-viable offspring) they would have evolved in the other direction towards dioecy, or just remained monoecious. so as plants spread through different environments that would've acted on them differently, different mechanisms of sexual reproduction would evolve in order to best equip their species. i think it'd be related to sexual determination genes as well as other factors. anyway hope that helps englishrick.

 

[englishrick]

your allways a fantastic help

i emagined that the number of chromozones might be different but that is normal between species,,,,but can we test for hemaphrodites without flowering the plant?,,,,,,,is it soething i can see uner a microscope?

could it be something to do with the polymorphic genes?