Seeking Critique on Vert Colosseum SOG concept.

[MiMedicineMan]

hey bro i like what you are doing and how you present it. I have had a couple vertical lighting grows with halides which made me switch to exclusively halides for flowering. I was in the dark blinded by the bright orange light.

you can do things with halides that people using hps could dream of.

i've even heard of people using hps for vegging to get the stretch and switcching to mh for flowering. BTW ive used many daylight mh and they all pretty much flower well, but none compare equally wit the horti blue. Mostpeopledon't know that the 250 and 400 horti blue are 5500k and the 1000 is 6500. and the 400's have a "BUD" base up or down version that burns about 4000 more lumens for the same price. This might not mean shit to some people but it means the world to me.

 

[~Shhh~]

Sounds good Anti, can't wait to see you rock this one.... Disco ball still a feature?

 

[Anti]

This is not the update you are looking for...

This is not the update you are looking for...

Hey Anti, I think you can get around the negatives of cmh and still reap the benifits if you were to run hps for the first 3/4 of flower then switching them to cmh to finish them up. what are your thoughts about that?

hey bro i like what you are doing and how you present it. I have had a couple vertical lighting grows with halides which made me switch to exclusively halides for flowering. I was in the dark blinded by the bright orange light.

I'm doing a lot of research on the subject at the moment. I am debating between a few different options for the future.

One option would be to add a 3rd 400w CMH bumping me up to 75w/sq. ft.

Another option would be to add a 3rd 400w, but HPS.

Another option would be to rebuild the table (possibly to a stacked bulb octagon that would take the 75w/sq. ft. as a goal.

Why am I blabbering about 75w/sq. ft.?

Well, I found a post from knna where he says that HPS wins at 50w/sq. ft. but that at 75w/sq. ft. CMH is the clear winner.

And lots of people (like Bobby Stainless) are adamant about mixed spectrums with HPS and CMH.

At the moment i'm not doing shit. I've changed the watering system, added perlite and better drainage and I'm going to see what that does to my numbers.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Sounds good Anti, can't wait to see you rock this one.... Disco ball still a feature?

Absolutely.

I did a head count yesterday and there were 56 clones ready for the table. There were several that I culled and then there were about 26 more that looked like they might be ready in a few more days.

So I moved the 56 that seemed ready to a different container and the 26 that showed promise are on the seedling mat.

I really was hoping to run MORE plants this round and not fewer, but if I don't get results from the 26 in the next day or two, I'm just gonna run with what I've got.

I've got a 55 gallon res with two pumps running 24 hours a day for the last day or so. (At approximately 800 gph that's exchanging the entire volume of the res 384 times a day!) I also have a powerhead that's rated for a 70 gallon aquarium down near the bottom. My nutes should be well mixed and well balanced by the time I give 'em their first feeding.

 

[MiMedicineMan]

hey anti, for what it's worth i agre with knna about the 50 and 75 watts. 75 is def too much for sodium because the plant can't be as close to a sodium light. Too mch unused yellow/orange is too harsh on the plant. That's why you get yellow curling tops close to hps and you get big beautiful green tops close to mh.

Now as far as overall yield, i don't know. I know I can get 1lb/mh1000 but i've never been able to get 2. That being said, I've never done a MH hydro grow, that wil lbe my summer project. btw that's the other big advantage to halides is that the less lumens = less heat coming off your bulb. Add that to the fact that i buy them for almost nothing and you have a real recipe for success!

NASA uses horti blues for hydro in space i've heard. Maybe they have some insight to the subject...

 

[~Shhh~]

Absolutely.

I did a head count yesterday and there were 56 clones ready for the table. There were several that I culled and then there were about 26 more that looked like they might be ready in a few more days.

So I moved the 56 that seemed ready to a different container and the 26 that showed promise are on the seedling mat.

I really was hoping to run MORE plants this round and not fewer, but if I don't get results from the 26 in the next day or two, I'm just gonna run with what I've got.

I've got a 55 gallon res with two pumps running 24 hours a day for the last day or so. (At approximately 800 gph that's exchanging the entire volume of the res 384 times a day!) I also have a powerhead that's rated for a 70 gallon aquarium down near the bottom. My nutes should be well mixed and well balanced by the time I give 'em their first feeding.

Does your AK branch out? How much veg do you plan on if running the 56?

I think this run will be very good for you whatever numbers you end with bro, you've learned a bunch from the first run and the upgrades look tight I really like what you've done with the system - dtw drippers in the coco mix. You will be able to water more often with that airy mix, leaning more towards conventional hydro. What percent did you end up going with for the mix?

 

[Anti]

Now as far as overall yield, i don't know. I know I can get 1lb/mh1000 but i've never been able to get 2. That being said, I've never done a MH hydro grow, that wil lbe my summer project. btw that's the other big advantage to halides is that the less lumens = less heat coming off your bulb. Add that to the fact that i buy them for almost nothing and you have a real recipe for success!

Well, I managed to pull slightly more than a pound with 800w of CMH and it wasn't a particularly impressive run. I know what my plants are capable as far as density and cola diameter and they didn't get there last round. So I know if I can get it dialed things will get considerably better.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Does your AK branch out? How much veg do you plan on if running the 56?

Yeah. It will definitely bush the hell out if I let it. The moms are super bushy.

I know that Dr. Bud (the guy I based my microcab off) said that smaller containers encourage the plant to avoid side branching and concentrate on a single cola. All of my grows have been in small containers shooting for single colas.

I really have no idea what they'll do if I allow them to branch out, yield wise. So I can't say how much veg I'll give 'em. I'm looking for thoughts and advice on this subject, and I will supply pics once it's all up and running (perhaps on a daily basis) so that people can chime in when they think it's a good idea to flip.

You will be able to water more often with that airy mix, leaning more towards conventional hydro. What percent did you end up going with for the mix?

I'll be able to water more often with next to zero effort and better PH control. As far as the perlite/coco mix....

I bought a bag of perlite that stands like 4 ft tall and 2 ft. wide and used the whole bag.

There's a 1.5-2 inch layer of pure perlite at the bottom of the beds. The remainder of the perlite was mixed into the coco. Ratio is probably somewhere between 30%-40% perlite.

 

[catman]

Greetings Anti,

If your AK branches out too much, use some pipe cleaners or something to tighten up the structure. If you had done everything you did last run, but topped and removed fan leafs I think you would be much closer if not passing your goal. I've only toyed with crosses of AK47, but they produce solid nugs even right above the soil/medium level. Use the plants to train themselves and move buds where needed to make the most of rays straight from the bulb.You didn't seem happy with last run so try and be as liberal as you can with # of nodes. More nodes and branching means you got more you can position into optimal light. This might require too much effort for lots of people, but surely you could handle it.

Vertical plants really want to grow into the bulb. They lean forward which lowers the volume of space they occupy, but we want to maximize light exposure. If a canopy isn't very dense then some people get moderate results occupying lots of space spanned. If ya see nodes growing straight up on the back-side of the light, find them a light gap to fill. Also, when you start to get heavy buds, your likely to have some branches fold down which opens more surface area of the plant to the light for finishing.

Lose the layer of pure perlite at the bottom. Simply said. Coco wicks more than perlite does so water will prefer to stay in the coco mix instead of going a long with gravity. Creating a perched water table above the bed is just wasting space. Roots are going to pull the most water from the bottom so give them a medium that holds on to it more than perlite which internally holds none.

Just 2 cents as usual :] and a demand for Updates!

 

[311devon]

hey bro, been on the lurk for a while.......I agree with everyone else. Your killing it. There's alot of grower who sit back on their hands at +/-.50gpw. Pat your self on the back. You got a design EVERYONE is drooling over. The big dogs are posting heavily and directly for your benefit. NO way are you not gonna succeed in smashing the dogshit outta your cfl numbers.

Your gonna love the dripper fed DTW. I've got a quiet lil second run going in my Vscrog. I moved to 12gal homemade smartpots with a mix of about 70/30 coco/#3 perlite.There was also about 3-5% of some really hot organic soil mix that was based on LC's mix with coco and had lots of micros in it.

I took the plunge and bought a Blumat patio kit. THE BEST DECISION I EVER MADE AS A GROWER!!!! I really shouda bought the maxi's but even with the regulars its made a world of difference. You want that coco WET. I'm keepin mine about where DHF suggested. My trays are just barely damp, very little puddling if any. The blumats are dripping constantly at that level of saturation. 1 drip every second to second and a half. There are 3 sensor/emitters to a pot. I'm 5weeks in and I guarantee if i harvested right now i would out do my last run. After reading Bobble's post on the Liquid Air stuff. It makes total sense. Fresh room temp juice perpetually trickling at the rate the girls are using it will provide massive oxygen to your roots. I cant believe it but you just cant over water this shit!!. Mine sat feet wet in two inches of stagnant runoff for 3 days and didn't even hiccup. Juice that shit Bro.....


I know I'm a lil late in the game with this but what about using a long section of landscape fabric attached to the top length of either side of the troughs spanning them like a long narrow sling to hold your media? Just leave enough gap for your solution to run through to waste. Then you got the smart pot benefits as well. Might take two layers. I would mount with the fabric rolled around a 3/4 x 3/4 cleat of appropriate length and then screwed down to the top of the trough..I have a solution for making the corners if ya wanna hear more....Maybe next run.... MUCHO

 

[Anti]

I've only toyed with crosses of AK47, but they produce solid nugs even right above the soil/medium level.

Under my CFLs, I had solid nuggage all the way to the soil that was substantially denser than what I achieved in the first run.

(But I was treating my coco like it was peat moss, too.)

Your thoughts are always welcome and happily devoured! Thank you.

hey bro, been on the lurk for a while.......I agree with everyone else. Your killing it. There's alot of grower who sit back on their hands at +/-.50gpw. Pat your self on the back. You got a design EVERYONE is drooling over. The big dogs are posting heavily and directly for your benefit. NO way are you not gonna succeed in smashing the dogshit outta your cfl numbers.

Thanks for the pep talk. Hoping this time is more impressive. Hopefully i can get closer to crossing that 1gpw barrier.

I know I'm a lil late in the game with this but what about using a long section of landscape fabric attached to the top length of either side of the troughs spanning them like a long narrow sling to hold your media? Just leave enough gap for your solution to run through to waste. Then you got the smart pot benefits as well. Might take two layers. I would mount with the fabric rolled around a 3/4 x 3/4 cleat of appropriate length and then screwed down to the top of the trough..I have a solution for making the corners if ya wanna hear more....Maybe next run.... MUCHO

I have several ideas in this vein.

• One is to build a new (lighter) table with only a small half inch lip around the edges and then having SRGB make me some custom bags that could sit inside that lip.

• Another is to build a version of heath's flooded tubes octagon but replacing one 600w in the center with two 400w CMH stacked vertically.

• Another is to build a version of bobble's racks with the same concept.

• Another is to add another 400w ballast and then put horti HPS in two of them and CMH in the middle:

X-X-X-X-X-X-X-X-X-X
|X...HPS..CMH..HPS...X|
X-X-X-X-X-X-X-X-X-X
​

That last idea would put me at 75w/sq. ft (horizontally), allow me to keep my CMH spectrum and also step up to HPS.

(Of course I'd have to yield at least another 400g in the same space to make it worth the effort.)

Won't make any decisions until after this harvest.

I planted 65 AK47 clones today. They are approximately 4.75 inches apart from one another all the way around. (37 on top tier and 28 on the bottom.) There's a dripper halfway between each plant. (So the drippers are also about 4.75" apart from one another all the way around.)

Once I find the camera and charge the battery I'll put some snaps up.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

And away we go!

 

[silver hawaiian]

First I'm all

But really I'm all

 

[~Shhh~]

Find the camera already!

65 is a good number mate, I can't wait to see them in the new set up soaking up some PAR and drinking up some nutes.

What's the plan for veg then bro?

Just getting my shit together to try a lil 600w vert sog, gonna be a bit of ghetto clusterfuckery for the first run as with seeds but I'm sure it will be fun, lol!!

 

[B. Self Reliant]

When I want to prevent branching (including with my AK cut) I veg my plants in deepots because I've found that tall, narrow containers grow plants that are taller & narrow rather than a little shorter and more bushy. I also keep the container/plant density pretty tight during early veg. If I've done my job right, I can have plants that have vegged for about a month and are tall & healthy yet without any long side branches. With the size contianers you're flowering in you may even be able to transplant them out of their small pots & flip them on the same day.

 

[Anti]

Colosseum Round II - Sixty Five Serious AK47 Clones in Drip Fed, DTW Coco

Colosseum Round II - Sixty Five Serious AK47 Clones in Drip Fed, DTW Coco

ROUND II

^^^ Close Up ^^^

^^^ The Whole Table ^^^

^^^ View From Above ^^^
​

I love the view through the drippers, but it will be nearly impossible to get that kind of shot with the table inside the cabinet.

Since I won't be able to pull the plants out of the table, I will probably have to pull the table out of its closet from time to time in order to trim plants without destroying my back. So I'll try to get cool shots whenever that happens.

I had to pull a few of the drippers out and there were a few leaks the first time I plugged the pumps up. I covered leaks with silver duct tape (instead of black) so that I can keep an eye on those spots.

 

[DHF]

And the race is on....Keep all the girls as close to the same size as yas can by whatever trimmin and shapin yas need ta do to maintain the canopy "above and below" on all 4 sides of the bulbs Bro.....I`m just sayin.....

What matters is where they ALL end up by end of stretch so all lumens can penetrate as deep as it takes sideways for max swellage till harvey...

Waitin for big things outta yas Bro cuz I know you`re capable..........Make it happen...

Peace...DHF.............

 

[~Shhh~]

Looking very cool Anti! Clones look comfy in their new abode.

How is that delivery pipe leaking?

 

[Jbonez]

subscribed anti, in for results. I followed your last one, I know you were disappointed, something to do with the CMH?

 

[TommyTwoColas]

Nice grow, been lurking for a while - keep up the good work.

 

[Anti]

And the race is on....Keep all the girls as close to the same size as yas can by whatever trimmin and shapin yas need ta do to maintain the canopy "above and below" on all 4 sides of the bulbs Bro.....I`m just sayin.....

What matters is where they ALL end up by end of stretch so all lumens can penetrate as deep as it takes sideways for max swellage till harvey...

I'mma gonna do my best. Feel free to hit me in the head with your bucket anytime I stray.

Looking very cool Anti! Clones look comfy in their new abode.

How is that delivery pipe leaking?

A few of the spots where I drilled in to attach an elbow for the feeder lines dribbled a bit. And in a few places, I removed drippers that I had installed when I was planning on 70 or more plants.

Even if there are any minor dribbles it shouldn't really matter. That's the reason I ran the lines on the inside of the table rather than the outside. The places where the drippers puncture the main tube aim toward the beds. If it dribbles, it should dribble right into the beds.

subscribed anti, in for results. I followed your last one, I know you were disappointed, something to do with the CMH?

Something to do with not listening to all the advice given.

From the beginning, people told me I needed to hand water daily but I wasn't seeing the signs I was accustomed to seeing in underfed plants...so I fed a half to a quarter as often as I should have!

I also did not pay close attention to PH last time.

I've also added a cal/mag supplement this round.

So between all of that, I hope to have a significant improvement.

The biggest reason that I can see that people aren't all over CMH (from hours and days and months of combing the internet) is because CMH tops out at 400w. And the number of commercial growers using 400w lamps is somewhere around negative three.

The lighting geeks (term used with utmost respect) all seem very excited by CMH par levels, lumen maintenance, low radiated heat, etc.

If I don't get some satisfactory results this round (and maybe even if I do) I may get a couple of horti HPS and see what happens.

 

[MiMedicineMan]

man i wish I had these pics of a 30 bulb x 400 watt grow with all horti blues. whew... I just kind of did an experiment with 20 gal pots and woww they were just as big as 1000's

I would do a 400 again any day of the week. Maybe a summer project... Don't the dutch use 400's and 600 mostly