Seeking Critique on Vert Colosseum SOG concept.

[Anti]

Ok. I decided to stay sober while working in Sketchup today so that I could get this thing right.

Please, please, PLEASE tell me I got these lights in the right place!

I measured from the outside edge of the top tier to the outside edge of the top tier on the other end, then I divided by 3 and placed the lights there. (77.375 inches / 3 = 25.7916 inches) So i put each bulb 25.79 inches from the outer edge of the upper tier.

(PS - they are centered above the cutouts. It's merely the angle of the camera in sketchup that make them look like they're off-center.)

 

[Anti]

So once I get the new house (moving in next month) and I figure out where I want to put it I'll basically be building a "room" for it to go in. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how tall the ceiling should be or whether I should leave any extra room "behind" the setup?

I was considering getting a piece of sheet metal and making a dome ceiling with an exhaust duct right in the center at the top. Does anyone think there are any reasons not to make a curved roof like that? If you think I should go with 90 flat roof, how high above the canopy do you think it needs to sit?

Something like this:

I've got a month to play around with this in sketchup but I want to get it complete so I can start budgeting for the supplies.


I'm planning to have it be modular so that I can pull out one two-tiered, eight plant unit at a time for watering and haircuts and whatnot.

 

[bobblehead]

If Anti can run plants in the corner, then why not put a table between the lights too? Make it happen Anti. Can't wait to see what you come up with. Building thing doesn't always go like it does on paper, so be sure to leave room to improvise...

 

[Marlo]

Gotta respectfully disagree on the corner plants position Marlo , cuz it`s establishing a "fully developed" sideways canopy , and He`s runnin budsicles , not actual plants that could per chance grow into each other and potentially be counterproductive as you say.....

I agree, with the right strain, budsicles will probably behave well enough to stay uniform. But the problem i see is this.....

Look at Anti's pic below, (looks dank btw) the cola itself is just as wide as the container, but the plant spreads out a few inches in each direction. Now imagine another plant on either side 1" away, and there you have your overlap. Considering that, if you look at the 3 plants that make up each of the corners in the design, the corner plant will be shaded quite a bit by its neighbors. The spaces between the plants are smaller than the plants themselves. Even the most extreme SOG's don't do that. At least none that I've seen, but I haven't been doin this as long as u bro!

Serious AK-47 budsicles in 2.5"x2.5"x10" tree pots:

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But I'm not really bashing the plant in the corners idea. I think lowering the plant count 20-25% would help. I'd just remove those corners 1st, along with about 20+ more and give everyone some elbow room.

Heaths vert sog's always started with some space between the plants. Either the containers were bigger (providing space), or the holes in the pipes were spread out some. Yet the plants always manage to fill the entire canopy, and yield like a muh fucka.


Bottom line Anti, you gotta get this shit done so we can see what the hell is gonna happen.

 

[Maj.Cottonmouth]

Bottom line Anti, you gotta get this shit done so we can see what the hell is gonna happen.

Looks like a great plan so far but I agree with Marlo and think less would be more. Best of luck with this, I am really looking forward to how it works out.

 

[StealthDragon]

hiya anti!

First off wow! I love your designs man...it made my night to stumble across this. Amazing engineering skills man...I'm just gonna throw all my thoughts out here since you want to hear what ppl are thinking I'm all about making things easy to clean and fix or modify later..so I kinda lean that way in advice

here's a few thoughts...first you talk about keeping the containers secure..I think it seems like alot of work to try to make all those square holes...I see you said they're easy to make but how easy to clean? Are the side supports necessary? I mean I'd just go with a front "bar" that holds the rows in place. I assume you have a bunch of the tree pots and you could just stick one in between as a placeholder if there's an empty spot so that the plant doesn't fall sideways. This way you also have the flexibility of removing the bar/lightshield for cleaning and stuff and you could also slide an entire row down a slot if ya know what I mean. I do a long plank of wood that just slots into place so you can pull it out easily later for cleaning.
..another thought I had was metal walls and magnets on the back side of the pots...no shelves..just flat metal walls...nice and open and you could "stick" plants anywhere you want. That's kinda a completely different design though.
...another thought I had was just fastening clips behind each treepot and cliping it to the back of the pot.....again I'm all about the easy cleaning and open environment for good airflow.

That 's a ton of plants..I strongly recommend something automated...like maybe a mini flood and drain or nft. I think blumats would be more work then they'd be worth with that many plants man. They're awesome but dialing in that many of them and the price of getting that many...I think you'd be better off with just timered watering or regular drippers. Gutters are also a good idea..they seem about the perfect size..waterproof..angle pieces..downspouts..etc..

On the lighting, I like the first placement.(sorry!)..squared with the side walls, also I'd hang the bulbs tip down and cover the floor with plants as well. If you don't cover the floor with plants for some reason then I'd switch the bulbs to tips up..ah, nm I didn't see #'s were so high, so mount them tips up so the light reflects off the ceiling instead of the floor. I also agree with justwatchin on the cmh, I've used them for over a year and they're a good bulb and great for veg but I personally found the buds to be slightly smaller and leafier....I recommend at least running a cheapo hps on one side (on the first run) and check it out for yourself...the opposing far walls will show you the difference in bud structure. If you were running 3 bulbs in there I'd say make the middle one cmh..but with just 2 I'd go with hps's...cheapo hps too, nothing fancy....just cycle em out when necessary. I think my cmh buds were slightly more frosty but also way leafier which is gonna get trimmed off anyways hard to fully explain but overall I feel I get more quality with hps..ie, bigger calyxes and less leaves.

hmmm..I'd put doors on both sides, or if it just opening from the front attach some of the racks directly to the doors....that would be really cool...like refrigerator door style. Whatever you decide to do for doors, or if you leave room to walk around it...make it easy access...I really like the dome idea too.

Might want to do something with a cool tube in such a tight area...or at least leave an option open to install one later if necessary.

Man...now that I'm looking over the pics again...this thing looks like it's about the size of a bed...or would fit under one ...might be jacked up a little...but you could put some fake drawers on the side...oh wait new, bigger house...but still been working on my bed idea for years...hmmm..

 

[Anti]

Look at Anti's pic below, (looks dank btw) the cola itself is just as wide as the container, but the plant spreads out a few inches in each direction. Now imagine another plant on either side 1" away, and there you have your overlap. Considering that, if you look at the 3 plants that make up each of the corners in the design, the corner plant will be shaded quite a bit by its neighbors. The spaces between the plants are smaller than the plants themselves. Even the most extreme SOG's don't do that. At least none that I've seen, but I haven't been doin this as long as u bro!

I have been considering on my own whether or not to add a bit more space between plants.

In my CFL cab, I pack them all in right on top of each other (not even giving them the .75" space between one another.) I figured vert HID would penetrate better than my horizontal CFLs, so I figured packing them in close together wouldn't be an issue.

Bottom line Anti, you gotta get this shit done so we can see what the hell is gonna happen.

I'm dying to see it myself.

Thanks for all the help and encouragement guys. When I pull the first harvest in, it will be thanks to your help and advice.

 

[Marlo]

That 1st harvest in a new setup is priceless. It'll show you exactly what went right or wrong. Whatever you decide to do, I'm sure there will be a big jump in efficiency by the 2nd run.

 

[TruthOrLie]

Seems like a lot of work. I didn't read it all so maybe I missed it.

Do you believe these budsickles would out produce 10-20 larger plants in the same space?

Or is this more for a perpetual type thing?

 

[justwatchin]

I think he's doing perpetual which means he can pack plants together and space them out at appropriate places. I don't see crowding being a problem with perpetual buds just develop differently on plant. The plant develops more on the top from earlier crowding. That along with mover and good air when it gets packed it won't be a problem.

One thing I would do though is leave both ends open and have air flowing from one side with fan on intake down the middle like NortherFarmer does. Put the fan of the filter on a dimmer so that you can turn it up as things get crowded. And buy a filter and fan twice the size of recommendation. Your gonna have to deal with that humidity that comes with packing it in and you can't do that from top venting. This will also allow you so cool lights with ease.

On the design aspect I would also add 2 more shelves. All 4" apart vertically. A 400 is ment to cover a 4foot space so 3" a shelf x 4shelves you should be fine. As far as the height, you can get as close as 9" without a problem with those CMH. Direct cooling maybe even better. So shooting for 12 in colas, fitting a big enough filter at 1 end (can 9000)(or even a 66 on dimmer till things are crowded I would think). Your canopy will end up being 2' 4" tall and 12" wide on each side. Leaving a six inch gap between sides that's 2.5 feet total with. I'm sure the 400 can cover that with bulb as high as center of top canopy. Now add the mover and appropriate space for adjusting light just in case, I would go with 3' 10" tall.

As far as leaning into the bulb, you would have to rotate plants a quarter everytime you water which should be about every 2days using 1:4 perlite/coco mix. The high amount of perlite in the mix actually holds more water believe it or not with dunking.

As far as your actual shelf design. I think something that would allow you to leave it in .5-1 inch of water everytime you water would be appropriate as the plants pass 30days watering. Everyday is a pain in the ass. Plants actually respond appropriately from the bottom feeding by sending more roots down there and giving you better growth up top. And with the roots crowding the bottom in those small containers you will find that the plants also finish a wk or 2 faster and you will also find that sativa's are perfect for this system.

 

[Anti]

Seems like a lot of work. I didn't read it all so maybe I missed it. Do you believe these budsickles would out produce 10-20 larger plants in the same space?

I don't know if they will definitely out-produce 10-20 larger plants, but DHF certainly seems to think it will.

What I do think is that I really like my budsicle buds. I'm comfortable with my submersion watering technique (and it doesn't work nearly as well in larger containers).

A beautiful thing about these containers is that the plant you see in my first pic: went straight from rooting in a jiffy peat pellet to that container right into 12/12. Growing fewer larger plants would require a veg period.

I can clone a hundred plants in a very small space and keep my whole grow in a space that is 10 ft x 3 ft (or something similar.)

A lot easier to build a false wall to hide everything if you don't have to account for a whole missing room.


I can water 30-50 plants in these containers using submersion in about 30 minutes currently. Adding an additional hour every other day isn't that much work, especially with the harvest I'd be looking at. (Even if the HID light only yields as well as my CFLs, there will be much more to harvest. And I have a sneaking suspicion that HIDs will outperform my CFLs. )

In 5 years, I might be growing a few large trees. Who knows? This is the current idea. Let's see where she goes!

 

[Anti]

Ok... for your consideration:

Had to start from scratch to re-do the spacing in the pots, so I didn't get as detailed with this one.

This is simply to illustrate marlo's idea of putting more space between budsicles.

Nothing functional about the other design changes, just the spacing in between pots.

The original design has a 3/4" space between pots. This version has a 2.4" space between pots. So almost as big as the pot itself.

This version drops plant count down to 76.

Will it yield as well?

What say you, experts?

 

[TruthOrLie]

one budsickle = 1/2oz?

 

[Anti]

one budsickle = 1/2oz?

That pic was my first round in the full sized MT2510 Treepot. I had been cutting them down from about 29oz volume to 16-17oz volume. In the smaller 16oz version with 36 plants in a 17 inch x 17 inch space, I was yielding approximately 4-5g per plant. In the fullsize pots (still under CFL, packed 25 plants in 17x17) it was yielding as pictured. Unfortunately I ruined my scale while making cannaflour and have no official weight on the plant pictured. Except that I know my largest plant from same clone to date was 9g dry and this one was substantially larger and fatter. So 14.25g per plant does not seem out of the picture with the bump up to 800w. The back side of the plants that are on the top corners of the top row of this thing will be 2.5ft from the bulb. (all other plants are closer than this.) That's about the limit of decent penetration in a 400w CMH (from what I've observed second hand.) Also, with it only being 2.5x6.5 (16.25 sq ft) it works out to 49.23 watts per square foot.

I appreciate everyone's responses. I had a similar brainstorming session prior to building my micro cab two years ago and my original design was substantially tweaked by the time it got built... but the build was documented with pictures and the grow was documented with weights. I intend to do this the same way. I have gotten so much from this community and I want to give a little something back. Please use this idea (if you like it after seeing my results) and tweak it and post your own results.

 

[redspaghetti]

hey anti,, if you could do this you're set

this is your top row yor could either have this

or this

bottom row you could have this

or this

and you're set

cheers,
red.

 

[DHF]

Good points Marlo , but with the original design there`s 3.25" of potential size sideways per budsicle even if they touch.......

With the re-design of only 76 plants , there stands the possibility of gaps in the sideways canopy that light will go right past the plants AFTER stretch , and the only benefit to the plantlets will be as the lumens are bounced back off the walls behind covered in reflectix.....not optimal for a perfect canopy...

IOW....the light`s gonna penetrate through the budsicles regardless due to their size and lack of density , so why not max out the canopy with the increased plant numbers ftw , instead of runnin less plants and hoping for em ta swell out to almost 5.25" wide that`s not very likely in the time frame with no veg time.....

I mean......we`re talkin bout 400 watters , not 1KW`s , so IME as long as each plantlet has room enough to breathe/transpire , and swallow lumens for the process , the more the merrier , and it`s only gonna get better with the second run so on and so forth......

1/2 oz budsicles have been done many times with my SOG bro`s on the left coast with outrageous plant numbers on 4 x 8 tables , so why not with bare bulbs sideways.....

Hell .....1 oz budsicles aren`t at ALL impossible since Heath hit 1 1/4 ozs on most of his seedplants straight 12/12 on his very first rack setup , but that`s Heath.........something to aspire to......

Don`t like the dome idea Anti.....Cover the walls behind and ceiling in reflectix ftw for better airflow and exchange.....and....I like Bobble`s idea of another level of plants on the floor for outrageous yield potential , but I understand there`s gotta be a limit ta work within.......or is there ?.......

No limits is my tail , and I`m standin on it...LOL.....

Peace......DHF............

 

[Anti]

Thanks for stopping by Red. You were my first exposure to vert growing. Maybe one day I'll go big like you.

For a third potential row "on the floor" are we talking about having them down in that open rectangle under the lights? I was under the impression that there was such a thing as "too close" to the lights. If that row was a similar size, the plants would be about a foot below the lights, but only inches away horizontally.

Do you think that would be workable? I'd have to raise the whole "table" up a foot to get more plants LOWER. Unless I had the bottom row two plants deep.

Suggestions?

I'm kinda leaning toward DHF in the "no need for so much space between" but I'm willing to listen to other people's thoughts on the matter. This has been designed so that the inside row will basically finish at the level of the second tier's soil, so there will be nothing blocking light from either tiers. The only things likely to overlap are fan leaves.

 

[Marlo]

Only one way to find out bro.

An advantage you have to your design is, if you go with the higher plant count, you can always pull out pots in the event of an overcrowding issue. You can't add more if you start with the lower plant count.... I still vote for the 76 version tho


I agree with DHF on losing the roof. You gonna want the heat from the 4oo's to have all the room it needs to escape. Reflectix all around will do plenty.

 

[prowler]

Want to remind you that CMH bulbs are a health hazard for your eyes. Remember to take pre cautions with those in mind.

 

[Anti]

Only one way to find out bro.

An advantage you have to your design is, if you go with the higher plant count, you can always pull out pots in the event of an overcrowding issue. You can't add more if you start with the lower plant count.... I still vote for the 76 version tho

I'm in the middle of re-sketching from the ground up at the moment. This new design places each plant in the center of it's own 4"x4" space. Will post in a day or so.

I agree with DHF on losing the roof. You gonna want the heat from the 4oo's to have all the room it needs to escape. Reflectix all around will do plenty.

The basement has 6 ft high ceilings. You recommend no "internal" ceiling? What minimum height (above top tier) do you recommend?

Thanks for your help.