Root rot, bum seedlings and the bubonic plague.

[GrandmaFresh]

Don't hurt me for not filling out the form please.

I have some seedlings going on, and I'm having a hell of a time so could somebody tell me:

What's the appropriate PH for a 50/50 mix of Vermiculite/Perlite? (Is that considered a soilless medium? I wasn't sure so I'm asking.)

What causes a seedling to look like it has a good start, and then makes the stem go thin (sort-of shrivel up like me) in the middle and kill the seedling?

When some of my girls crack open their seeds, they lose momentum, and when I look closer the tip of the head of the seedling (where the sun leaves should detach and open) there's a dark colored spot, almost a purple.

I'm starting some true blueberry, casey jones, johnny blaze, og sunshine, soul bubble BX3, tribal vision, kalichakra and arjan's ultra #2. I know, it's a boatload to start at once and wasn't intended to be that way but I keep having girls die off on me. Almost like root rot. (Any warnings on these strains for special treatment?)

Is hydrogen peroxide good to use on seedlings with root rot?

Before I catch holy hell for this post, I'm going to stop here.

Be gentle,
Grandma

 

[HuffAndPuff]

Grandma,
You sound familiar! One of those names I guess... Anywho, welcome aboard! There are plenty of helpful, nice people here who are happy to help. So without any further ado...

I just found a killer link to a bunch of Cervantes' Bible (THE book on home cultivation) and I suggest you peruse it, until you order the real/complete copy.

http://books.google.com/books?id=fE...DMn&sig=AbrAzx_szEqaSLNWGxhsO-GBxyE#PPA135,M1


On to your questions....

1)

What's the appropriate PH for a 50/50 mix of Vermiculite/Perlite? (Is that considered a soilless medium? I wasn't sure so I'm asking.)

Perlite is commonly used with vermiculite ( a 50 - 50 mix is a very popular medium), and is also one of the major ingredients of soiless mix's. perlite has good wicking action which makes it a good choice for wick-type hydroponic systems. Perlite is also relatively inexpensive.

The biggest drawback to perlite is that it doesn't retain water well which means that it will dry out quickly between waterings.Vermiculite is another mined material. In it's natural state it resembles mica rock, but when quickly heated it expands due to the generation of interlaminar steam.

Vermiculite is most frequently used in conjunction with perlite as the two complement each other well. Vermiculite retains moisture (about 200% - 300% by weight), and perlite doesn't so you can balance your growing medium so that it retains water and nutrients well but still supplies the roots with plenty of oxygen. A 50/50 mix of vermiculite and perlite is a very popular medium for drip type hydroponic systems as well as ebb and flow systems. Vermiculite is inexpensive.

The major drawback of vermiculite is that it retains too much water to be used by itself. It can suffocate the roots of plants if used straight.

http://www.simplyhydro.com/growing1.htm

pH between 5.5-6.5 should be good. Stitch is the pH guy though, I'm sure she'll chime in.


2)

What causes a seedling to look like it has a good start, and then makes the stem go thin (sort-of shrivel up like me) in the middle and kill the seedling?

You are most likely talking about 'damping off'.

Damping-off disease of seedlings is widely distributed and is a problem on a worldwide basis. It occurs in most soils, temperate and tropical climates, and in greenhouses. The disease affects seeds and seedlings of various crops. The amount of damage the disease causes to seedlings depends on the fungus, soil moisture, and temperature. Normally, however, cool wet soils favor development of the disease. Seedlings in seedbeds often are completely destroyed by damping-off, or they die after transplanting. Frequently, germinating seeds are killed by damping-off fungi before they emerge from the ground, which accounts for poor stands in many crops. Older plants are seldom killed by damping-off fungi mainly because the development of secondary stem tissue forms a protective barrier and limits fungal penetration. However, portions of the roots and stems still can be attacked, resulting in poor growth and reduced yields.
When seeds are planted in infested soils, damping-off fungi may attack them at any stage. The damping-off fungi may attack the seed prior to germination, or they may attack after the seed has germinated but before the seedling has emerged above the soil line. Infected seed becomes soft and mushy turning a brown to black color, and it eventually disintegrates. Seeds that have germinated and become infected develop water-soaked spots that enlarge and turn brown. The infected tissue collapses, resulting in death of the seedling. Penetration and death of seeds before they emerge is termed preemergence damping-off.

Seedlings that have emerged are usually attacked at or below the soil line. The organism can easily penetrate the young soft stem tissue. The infected stem portion becomes discolored and begins to shrink. As this occurs, the supportive strength of the stem's invaded portion is lost, and the seedling topples over (see figures 1 and 2). The fungi continue to invade the remaining portion of the seedling, resulting in death. This phase of the disease is termed postemergence damping-off.

Older established plants also can be attacked by damping-off fungi. Usually the new developing rootlets are infected, resulting in root rot. Infected plants show symptoms of wilting and poor growth.Control

Proper conditions for seed germination and seedling emergence also favor vigorous growth of fungi that cause damping-off. Seed and roots must be kept moist and warm until the roots have penetrated the soil and the seedlings have emerged. As the seedlings continue to grow, moisture at the soil surface can be decreased, and the damping-off fungi then will have less of an advantage. When watering, thoroughly saturate the soil and then apply no more water until soil approaches the point at which plants wilt. This procedure will keep surface soil dry for a maximum time. Avoid frequent sprinkling because this generally keeps surface soil too moist and promotes fungal growth.

Damping-off may not occur at a location for many years and then be devastating in one season. Such situations sometimes can be traced to a change in crops or plant varieties, a change of source of soil, or some change in cultural practice. Prior to initiating any changes, it would be wise to test the intended changes on a small scale before the main planting is done.

Control measures for damping-off fall into several categories depending on the facilities available and whether preventive measures are to be used after the trouble has begun. Preventive measures are much preferred, but make preparations for emergencies. Preventive measures are based on eliminating fungi that cause damping-off or providing chemical barriers to prevent the fungi from growing in the planting medium.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/horticulture/DG1167.html

3)

When some of my girls crack open their seeds, they lose momentum, and when I look closer the tip of the head of the seedling (where the sun leaves should detach and open) there's a dark colored spot, almost a purple.

Tough to tell without a picture, but it sounds like they are still-born. Given the damping off, I suspect that there is something wrong with either the medium, or the conditions of the grow. I'd recommend tearing it down, and scrubbing everything (room/equip) with your preferred disinfectant methods. Then put it back together, and use it as an opportunity to fix those little details that have been nagging you. I used to keep a somewhat lazy grow (who cleans nature?) but since seeing the err of my ways, I can tell you it's much better the hard way.

4)

Is hydrogen peroxide good to use on seedlings with root rot?

Trick question? If you are referring to your own problems, you mean damping off

There are some other tips that can help to prevent damping off:

You can pre-soak seeds in a blend of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide and water. Some gardeners prefer to purchase 35% Hydrogen Peroxide and dilute it at home to 3%. At the proper dilution, I have found that standard 3% Hydrogen Peroxide, even though it has fixatives, doesn't harm my seeds or seedlings. Here's the ratio of Peroxide to water:

Seed Soak: 2 TBSP. of Hydrogen Peroxide to 2 cups or 16 ounces of boiled and cooled distilled water.Hydrogen Peroxide again is also useful in preventing Damping-Off Disease after the seeds have sprouted:

This time, add 1 cup of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide to a gallon of boiled distilled water. Use this to mist seedlings.

You may be surprised to learn that cinnamon has excellent anti-fungal properties and acts as a deterrent to damping-off:

Simply sprinkle the surface of the potting medium with ground cinnamon.

Once seedlings start to emerge, remove any covering and put them under grow lights. This is crucial so that seedlings can grow stout and strong and this goes a long way to preventing damping-off.

Thin seedlings. Transplant them or remove them, but prevent overcrowding. Thinning assures that the remaining seedlings will be stronger and will grow normally. It also will help to maintain good air circulation between plants.

Preventing damping-off is a simple blend of common sense, cleanliness, and good gardening practice. By using some of these helpful hints and techniques, gardeners can nip damping-off in the bud. Try a few of these tips and see if your success rate increases!

http://gardengal.net/page80.html

Hope this helps! Enjoy the ride!

HuffAndPuff

ps- The search (google/IC/etc) is a terrible thing to waste!

 

[MynameStitch]

You know, if you did not fill it out we can;t help you because we could be here all day long explaining how things could go wrong.... because it's like humans get illness's but you can't explain everything that causes the runs or fever; because it could be 100's of things.........

So if you can fill that out and we can better help you out..... otherwise you will not get your answer you are looking for, but only get speculation and you won't learn from that.

 

[HuffAndPuff]

Stitch, I get where you're coming from, but most of her questions don't require the filling out of "Stitch's List". I respect the fact that that's how you like/need/want to do business, but people can be helped without it, you know. It is not the sole path to knowledge/diagnosis is what I am saying, though it's certainly a good one.
My .02
HuffAndPuff

 

[MynameStitch]

Well; reason why I am asking is; instead of going through the entire list of things that could go wrong; by her weeding out things that could not have been wrong we could get down to "the real problem" rather than sitting here typing a list of things that could be wrong; I do that to better get an accurate answer for the grower and to make it easier for all of us not just me.

Most of her questions do require some of her growing conditions..... damping off for instance can be caused by over watering, high humidity......

shriveling up stems could be caused by over watering; soil to rich; too much nutrients.....

too high of heat.... heat stress..... see where I am getting at?
I would rather not guess what is going on but rather get right down to the point, how can a person learn when you give them about 12 things that could be wrong?

 

[whatsthatsmell]

I have to agree with stitch, at this point we dont know if Grandma is using something like Superthrive, or any additives for root growth, what the mix of hydrogen peroxide (which one is being used, store bought (5%) or super oxy 35%), are they in Rapid rooters, jiffy pucks, rockwool, etc, etc. Any one of those could change the answer that one would receive. Filling everything out that stitch has taken the time to put up in a list really helps us help you....the more you help us, the more we can help you kinda thing....i actually like his list, gives me everything right there, and if people actually take the time to read the forum, they will see pretty much the same thing being asked over and over again... There seems to be a common problem that people have, pH being wrong, adding nutes WAY WAY to early, or too strong, etc etc... Reading some of the other posts helps a lot......

 

[GrandmaFresh]

Guys give me some credit, I did read other posts, but I have girls in crisis and didn't take the time to peruse the entire forum.

HuffandPuff... you're a gem. That really helped put me in the right direction.

And I'll have you know Stitch... that speculation has worked for my gynecologist for years......

But,

What STRAIN are you growing? True blueberry, casey jones, johnny blaze, og sunshine, sour bubble BX3, tribal vision, kalichakra and arjan's ultra #2.
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?) Seed
What is the age of your plants? Somewhere around 3 weeks
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? Seedling
What Technique are you using? Well, I put the seeds in water till they drop, then moist paper napkins till a white nipple shows then off to my soilless medium.
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.) 50/50 Vermiculite/Perlite
What is the Water temperature? Room temperature... like a normal room not a room with a great deal of lighting.
What Nutrient's are you using? How much of each if using multiple? To a gallon of water I used a single drop of dark energy and a single drop of superthrive (good call, do I look that old?), and one drop of pH down.
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? See below.
What is the pH of the "Tank"? Around 5.5-6.0
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? I'm using cabbage extract to determine pH, don't have my TDS meter calibrated yet.
When was your last watering? Yesterday, I water daily, mostly a squirt across the surface with a turkey baster to keep the surface moist. I have a fan blowing across 'em.
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional) Been using the same thing so far.
What size bulb are you using? I have... four 20W floro bulbs. See that, I said floro, and you guys told me I don't read the forums.
What is the distance to the canopy? Now, about two inches to the lights.
What is your RH Factor? My rhesus factor? I know these are my girls but... I don't think I'm quite sure I'm thinking of the same RH.
What is the canopy temperature? 78F
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range). 70-78F
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) It's fast, but not fast enough to propel plants across the room.
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? Sure is.
Is your water HARD or SOFT? Well, I don't think I have anything to test this with, but I can tell you my fishie tank has mineral deposits around the filter so would that mean my water is hard?
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched? Nope.
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? Nope.
Are plant's infected with pest's? Nope.

That wasn't a trick question with regards to peroxide, my grandson said something about 3% hydrogen peroxide if I had a problem... but I didn't remember what the particular problem was.

I do have photos but it seems as if I'm not allowed to upload... temporarily disabled? I wish I was temporarily disabled.

Well I have some sites to read, thank you sweethearts.

Grandma

 

[whatsthatsmell]

Granny,
I didnt mean to sound rude, so please dont take it that way.....

Ok, now that that is out of the way, lets see if i can help ya some......

That Dark Energy and Superthrive is some strong stuff......i only use the superthrive once during the cloning stage, as far as the dark energy, i dont use it.... My seedlings and clones enjoy a straight water (nothing added) and prior to that i was doing almost the samething you are thinking that the additives would help the plant...well, actually i was stunting the plant more than i was helping.....If i see that a plant is having issues in the first 30 days then i will put a drop of Superthrive in a gallon of water or maybe a drop for every 2 gallons.

The lights that you have running....i dont use Floro, i use HID's for veg and flower, but for seedlings and clones i have 2 floro's only, then when they are big enough, i drop them below my veg canopy (keeps them from getting the direct hit of the HID, when they want/need more light, they will jump to it). The one thing i do know is that people generally have about 3inches between the bulb and the plant when using floro, others who use it may say different, so take what i say with lights with a grain of salt.....

RH = Relative Humidity, again, i dont mean to sound like i am being rude, just trying to help..........

Hopefully that helps ya some....

 

[MynameStitch]

Granny, I do not want to be the one to kill someone else's plant; I never caused death to someone elses grow; and I take it seriously with the information I give, I want to make sure I help other growers and not give them bad advice....... so I am not trying to be mean or pushy with ya; I just want peeps to learn the right way.

Like whatsthatsmell said; superthrive is very strong; only 1 drop per gallon is needed and should never be used on seedlings; clones and cuttings before rooting is a different story........ but never use that stuff; seedlings do not need it. It's like giving seedlings anabolic steroids

I have never heard about the cabbage thing before, but I do know the ph test fluid is very important and keeping your stuff calbrated every 2 weeks is also recommended.

ok, with you having them in a perlite vermiculite mixture you need to feed them a small amount of nutrients per gallon of water; very week after the first set or 2 of leaves show up.... like 1/4 of a teaspoon per gallon of water untill they get bigger...

the superthrive and dark energy is what caused your issues...... it should never be used unless transplant and superthrive should never be used in hydro as it can gunk up the system you are using with a clear slime like root rot but it's not........

 

[HuffAndPuff]

Granma and Stich,

I beg to differ with the assessment of the problem as superthrive related. First of all, you are saying its the superthrive and the dark energy causing the 'problems' when I have yet to see anybody positively identify what her problems are. I offered likely suggestions, but seeing she used superthrive and automatically saying that is the problem. at this stage, is incorrect. In fact, I doubt that this is the problem, and I firmly believe she described damping off, exactly.

Furthermore, I see you saying superthrive is strong stuff, use only during transplant, etc. etc. ALL THE TIME. I am not telling anybody to use any more than the recommended amount, and in fact you should always begin by using 1/2 strength of anything; 1/4 strength on seedlings in a nutrient free medium.

I have not used superthrive before, but I know many growers (dope and otherwise) who do. Quite a few of them FOLLOW THE PRODUCT'S INTENDED USE, and use it (diluted) on seedlings. Also, according to the manufacturer, it can be used in hydro, no problem. Here are some sources, decide or try for yourselves. I plan on picking some up, and doing some controlled experiments with a bunch of BS bagseeds, and will kill them after seedling phase.

The World renowned Superthrive is a great plant tonic and general growth promoter. Use all through complete grow including cuttings and seedlings, 60 years unchallanged guarantee-offer.

A favorite of plant lovers. Superthrive is not a fertilizer, but rather a tonic for transplants and otherwise stressed plants. Superthrive is packed with Vitamins and hormones. Superthrive is a product that can be utilised in many different applications. Plants require more than one vitamin for optimum performance (who consumes only one vitamin only)? Superthrive comes in a few different sizes and we have the full range available.

This is truly a remarkable product, evident because so many have tried to copy the idea. I can tell you now, you may one day make an equal but you will not improve on this amazing product.
If you want top results with your cuttings use Superthrive at 1 drop per 2 litres of your usual pre-soak nutrient solution.
If you want improved health and heavier crop use Superthrive at 1 drop per 4 litres of nutrient solution.
Dr Johnson from the U.S.A invented this product over 30 years ago and has been kept quite by the growers of prize winning Vegetable''s and Flower''s in the UK for far too long, I think they take it all too seriously myself. So fill your boot''s, as they say, somewhere in the world. Don''t forget you will need a pipette for this product

http://www.growroomsuk.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=525

SuperThrive increases yields, and helps plants grow faster by stimulating the production of natural hormones. Works great with both hydroponics and soil gardening. It is also excellent for helping young seedlings get a quick start on life, or for reviving sickly plants. Do not use more than the recommended dosage of 1/4 teaspoon per gallon. SuperThrive can be used every time you water your plants. SuperThrive is not a fertilizer; therefore you may use it in addition to (not instead of) ordinary fertilizers or plant food.

http://www.nehydro.com/store/index....s_id=1&zenid=44eeed72115cc32c70f5bfbf9a4aba50

This was just stuff I found through google, seems legit enough to me.

HuffAndPuff

 

[Kr@kEn]

Root rot is doubtful at the seedling stage. Especially in vermiculite and perlite.
As far as what percentage perlite vs vermiculite, it depends on how often you want to water.
If you want to water every 2 days or so, use half and half. If you want to water more often, then INCREASE the percentage of perlite. If you use something on the bottom of your pots as a reservoir like a plant saucer / drain tray, the roots will grow into the bottom of the pots and you won't have to water as often since the extra overflow water is stored at the bottom. This is basically how the hempy bucket method works. Buckets are optional however. Pots and saucers work fine.

Vermiculite holds more water for a longer period than perlite, other than that they are pretty similar. Perlite dries out faster but provides more air ratio. Vermiculite, dries out a little slower.
Right now I'm using 75% perlite and 25% Grodan stone wool mini cubes. I use the mini cubes mostly for inert water retention (although they do hold at least 20% air at all times) and the perlite is just an excellent inert medium that provides a lot of air to the roots.

In a soilless medium you need your PH in the 5.5-6.0 range and you have to use hydroponic base nutrients.

 

[MynameStitch]

You ever seen a seedling get used with superthrive? I have several times and this is a perfect example of how strong it is and should only be used in conditions when a plant is stressed and is mid size at least 4 sets of leaves.

THat is just a sales pitch and if you believe that you are naive; cannabis is so much different from the plants they used it on too; super thrive and dark energy is not recommended for seedings anyone who has grown with it and did it knows the answer to that question.
A seedling should every everything it needs as long as growing conditions as met; pH is correct, soil is not strong and is not overwatered, you should never have any issues with them nor should they need ferted with it.

1 drop per gallon of water is still too strong for them dude why would you want to subject a seedling when it is still trying to grow when it does not need anything? they grow just fine without intervention or trying to boost them quicker; when you do that it just makes them worse and slows down stuff.

1/4th of a teaspoon would burn the hell out of a small plant and it would turn to dust lol.

so again do not believe everything you read; I have seen solid proof for years that stuff is so strong and I have used it plenty of times and even used it on seedlings to show proof in the past back at OG.... so I know from experience the stuff is not supossed to be used with seedlings.... dark energy is the same.

 

[GrandmaFresh]

Why can't I upload photos? Then you folks can take a good look at what I have going on.

But let me see if I understand... first let me rewind...

I have floranova and floralicous ferts that I haven't delved into yet (I almost typed fertalicious farts), so I should make a weak mix of those, and leave the superthrive and dark energy out?

Now I know I should scour the threads for information on this, and forgive me and my bifocals, but is there any special mix regarding these brands? I recall from the last time I did this a few years ago, there was Lucas's formula for the GH trio. Is there any sort of ratio that works particularly well with these brands?

If not I'm going to just make a thin mix of the floranova grow and not touch the floralicious or the floranova bloom. Something I just remembed though, my perlite is miracle grow and is.... enriched with...

0.04% Total N
0.004% ammonical N
0.027% nitrate N
0.009% urea N
0.01% Available Phosphate
0.06% Soluable Potash

Now is that anything I need to worry about while making food for my girls?

I apologize for the spoonfeeding

Grandma

P.S.: Has anybody who's been helping me here had any luck with using water from an aquarium? Or the sludge that is removed when a person vacuums the bottom of their tank?

 

[MynameStitch]

Pictures are still having issue being uploaded and the problem should be fixed soon; so it's not your fault. Something is wrong with the site not allowing pictures to be uploaded..... so it should be fixed soon; cause it is being a pain in the ass not having pics uploaded to speed diagnosis rates up.



Are we still talking about seedlings? Cause if so not sure on the dosage since you ar enot using soil....... but I will say to use tap water.... iuf you use RO water you will delve into more problems; seedlings and RO water do not mix most of the time...... cause there are micronutrients removed that the seedlings need.

Just use the grow; and I would use like 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of water to start out with considering your not using soil.....

Why the hell would you want to use the sludge at the bottom of the tank? I know fish water is good to use with there waste; but as long as there is NOTHING added to the water like ph adjusters or hard water removers you will be fine to use it, the sludge I would not use........

 

[GrandmaFresh]

Still seedlings.

The sludge at the bottom of the tank is fishpoop, nitrites and nitrates. I was just wondering if anybody had any luck using something along those lines. Maybe diluted or something.

(Fishpoop is the scientific term mind you)

 

[whatsthatsmell]

I dont think that fishpoop is broken down enough for the plants to get alot of benies out of it. You might have to throw that into your worm farm and let them have fun with it for awhile and then place it in your medium.....talk about a double whammy...worm and fish poop....i think the plants would love you for that.

 

[MynameStitch]

what some people do is get fish and put them in there res and let them swim around pooping in the water, but can't do that when ya got nutrients in the water too!

Fish poop is slow acting like any other most organics.... takes time to break down before it can really be used.

But since you are not using soil, the only real thing you can do is let it set for about 24 hours...... or more before using it..... the longer it sits the better.

 

[GrandmaFresh]

Well that settles it, I'm attaching a swimming pool with sharks and I'll call it a reservoir.

 

[GrandmaFresh]

This becomes a cold place when you try to make a joke out of sharks in a swimming pool. A cold place indeed.

Getting back to it, I have 'seedlings' that are almost a month old and are only three or four inches tall. I have an assortment of individual plants that are all doing unique and very obnoxious things. I want to put some pictures on here but it seems like I can't put them up directly through here. How have people been getting their plants diagnosed?

 

[MynameStitch]

You should be able to post them now.........
Did you try just now?