Reasons why dry sifted resin is the best!

[Frenchy Cannoli]

Conclusions
Many factors influence both the yield and the quality of essential hemp oil.

This is the conclusion of your paper what is the relation to our topic???

 

[mofeta]

I think Sam is right, using the word "better", in regards to taste, high whatever, makes it into a completely subjective, non-quantifiable, non-scientific, matter of personal taste.

I think steering the conversation towards objective, quantifiable, characteristics allows actual scientific exploration is a good move. "Does pressing alter overall terpene content, when all other factors (cold storage, protection from atmosphere, etc.) are accounted for", is a good start. The question about sun-drying is also a good example of going on this more scientific line of discussion.

I think the best starting point that everyone agrees on is that unpressed resin is different than pressed. How is it different? Not in subjective sense: "Pressed tastes better." but in a quantifiable sense "Unpressed retains more of the original terpenes." The first statement is an untestable expression of personal taste. The second is objective, testable.

Hi Frenchy

In science, you don't form an opinion and then look for evidence to back it up. This is a logical fallacy called "confirmation bias".

What you do is form an informed opinion, and then try to disprove it. Destroy it. If it hangs together after you try to falsify it every way you can, you then publish, and your colleague's in the field have an obligation to try to disprove your conclusions as vigorously as possible. I can't stress this enough. Science is all about a brutal, uncompromising, search for the truth by identifying falsehoods. You illuminate the truth by eliminating the untrue, and the success is directly proportional to how vigorous the scrutiny is, how sharp the attacks are.

I think there is a lot of basic investigation that needs to be done even before we can make halfway decent ideas about what happens when you press. And by the way, (as I am sure you are supremely aware) there are many ways to press. With heat? With your hands, or mechanically in a press? Many more variables.

Can you outline for me the answer to this question:

What quantifiable changes happen to very clean resin that has been hand pressed, over a 1 year period, at room temperature?

Then:

What is your evidence are you drawing on in making this opinion. Is it just anecdotal, your personal observations and impressions, or do you have numbers from an apparatus of some sort?


I am also having a problem with some of your statements, especially the "No I do not agree that plants dried in the sun for the first few days have loss of terpenes.." If this is so, why can I smell the terps just boiling off plants drying in the Arizona sun? In the old days my guerrilla outdoor projects, I tried lots of different field-drying techniques just out of expediency. If you leave buds even wrapped in the fan leaves, in the sun here in Arizona, you can smell the terps wafting through the air long before you actually get to your dying spot. I haven't done any real scientific experiments to investigate this, but I think it is safe to assume that the aroma being smelled is terpenes being liberated from the weed?

Anyway, you have stimulated a good conversation, and have a admirable enthusiasm, I think you are serious enough about this matter to be able to accept criticism of your ideas without perceiving it as a personal attack. Am I right about this? Science doesn't work if you attach you ego and self-identity to your ideas, so I hope this is the case.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

By the way Terpenes are NOT made in the resin heads, poles check article written by your friends

THC (TETRAHYDROCANNABINOL) ACCUMULATION IN GLANDS OF CANNABIS (CANNABACEAE)

Paul G. Mahlberg and Eun Soo Kim, Department of Biology, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN USA; and Department of Biology, Konkuk University, Seoul, Korea

Well they are made in the heads or rather they are made by the head disc cells with their cytoplasm and a non-cellular intrawall secretory cavity, that make the terpenes and Cannabinoids and they accumulate in the resin heads.
-SamS

c. Content of secretory cavity

The gland consists of disc cells with their cytoplasm and a non-cellular intrawall secretory cavity. We examined the contents of this secretory cavity specifically to determine if cannabinoids occur in it. With microcapillary pipets we removed contents from only the secretory cavity without damaging the disc cells. Data show cannabinoids to be abundant in this cavity.

Diagram 2. (below). Representation of mature secretory gland. Disc cells, attached to leaf or bract by stipe cells and basal cells (below stipe), release fibrillar wall matrix into secretory cavity where it contributes to thickening of subcuticular wall (wall) during enlargement of secretory cavity. Plastids (P) in disc cells produce secretions which accumulate outside plasma membrane, pass through cell wall as hyaline areas to form secretory vesicles (L) in secretory cavity. Vesicles in contact with subcuticular wall release contents to contribute to growth of cuticle during enlargement of secretory cavity. THC occurs in walls, fibrillar matrix and other contents surrounding the vesicles, but not in the vesicles; little THC is present in the disc cells. Nucleus = black; vacuole = V; vesicles = L; plastids = P; endoplasmic reticulum = ER.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Conclusions
Many factors influence both the yield and the quality of essential hemp oil.

This is the conclusion of your paper what is the relation to our topic???

Reread the paper, it includes pollinated and un-pollinated.
-SamS

 

[mofeta]

By the way Terpenes are NOT made in the resin heads, please check article written by your friends

THC (TETRAHYDROCANNABINOL) ACCUMULATION IN GLANDS OF CANNABIS (CANNABACEAE)

Paul G. Mahlberg and Eun Soo Kim, Department of Biology, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN USA; and Department of Biology, Konkuk University, Seoul, Korea

I would be very interested in why you think this is so. Could you post a couple quotes from the paper that you think indicate this please?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

No I don't, all of you are smoking it un-press so I should ask you the question in fact: are you?

If smoking unpressed resin makes you crazy, sure we are.....

Didn't you ever hear, that smoking unpressed resin will drive you crazy, from the dry sift traditionalists cultures? I did every where I went, I heard it hundreds of times.....
Were they all wrong?
If so, what else were they wrong about?
Pressing?
-SamS

 

[Frenchy Cannoli]

Sorry I should have used the word hypothesis instead of opinion, please pardon my English on that one.

 

[Frenchy Cannoli]

Reread the paper, it includes pollinated and un-pollinated.
-SamS

I got that but we are still talking about hemp and oil so I still do not get it

 

[Frenchy Cannoli]

If smoking unpressed resin makes you crazy, sure we are.....

Didn't you ever hear, that smoking unpressed resin will drive you crazy, from the dry sift traditionalists cultures? I did every where I went, I heard it hundreds of times.....
Were they all wrong?
If so, what else were they wrong about?
Pressing?
-SamS

THey may have just mean that it is not good

 

[EsterEssence]

I have heard many times smoking unpressed will make you crazy, do I believe it, No..Maybe a third party testing some high grade dry sift pressed and unpressed from the same batch can produce a result that might be accepted.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

THey may have just mean that it is not good

So,
You did not hear that smoking unpressed resin makes you crazy? Never?
Traditional dry sifters around the world all told me that.
-SamS

 

[jump117]

By the way Terpenes are NOT made in the resin heads, please check article written by your friends

THC (TETRAHYDROCANNABINOL) ACCUMULATION IN GLANDS OF CANNABIS (CANNABACEAE)

Paul G. Mahlberg and Eun Soo Kim, Department of Biology, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN USA; and Department of Biology, Konkuk University, Seoul, Korea

They argue that it is so. Here is a quote from this book -

b. Secretion role of disc cells

It is pertinent to examine the organization of the disc cells because all contents in this cavity must be derived from the disc cells. Cannabinoids, or their precursors, are secretions from these cells. Another major group of secreted compounds are the terpenes (monoterpenes and sesquiterpenes). Monoterpenes are the more abundant of the two. Terpenes compose the "essential oils"; they contribute to the odors of the plant, and are sticky in character, as evident when one touches the plant. Different combinations of terpenes in different strains contribute to odor differences among the strains. Cannabinoids, and THC, are odorless to most humans.
http://www.hempreport.com/issues/17/malbody17.html

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I got that but we are still talking about hemp and oil so I still do not get it

No problem, the work was repeated and confirmed with Cannabis drug varieties you will just have to believe me the results were the same.
Think about it, do you think a plant can put so much energy into seeds making without any loss of energy from the plant to make terpenes and Cannabinoids and more flowers?

I can get a kilo of seeds from one big plant, that kilo of seeds takes just a bit of energy that the plant could use to make more flowers, resin, terpenes, Cannabinoids.... or use it for lots of seeds.
-SamS

 

[DrySiftWizrd]

Frenchy I would be curious to see what your dry sift looks like under a microscope.

You keep asking for 'science' yet have not even used a $40 usb scope to look at what you are making and that confuses me..

I have seen you claim that 'traditional' teks work just as well as mine, and that i'm not doing anything new.. so then where are all the sift shots that are just as clean around the world? Until I gave my method up basically it was just Sam who had pictures that pure, and nobody else was even close.

Just since last August when I gave this up, dry sifting in general has exploded and people realize it's really as easy as i'm making it look..

If the 'traditional' teks work this good, why wasn't everyone already doing it? Why wasn't it common knowledge all over the internet? Dry sifting isn't new as you've pointed out...

So where were all the shots and methods that 'worked' just as well as mine?

I still don't see them.

 

[Frenchy Cannoli]

So,
You did not hear that smoking unpressed resin makes you crazy? Never?
Traditional dry sifters around the world all told me that.
-SamS

nope but is that traditions or myths???

 

[Frenchy Cannoli]

The terpenes are not exactly made in the trichomes but on the underside, nonetheless I was wrong and understood that it was more than terpenes precursors that were flowing up the stalk. I stand corrected..

View image in gallery​

This a quote of the paper:
Dr. Pate explained that while the chemical precursors for the creation of cannabinoids are absorbed through the roots from the soil and are found throughout the plant, cannabinoids and terpenes are manufactured within the trichomes by a rosette of cells at the base of each trichome head. “The glandular trichomes [...] are characterized by a secretory disc of one to 13 cells supported by a layer of stipe cells above a layer of base cells embedded in the epidermis.

 

[Frenchy Cannoli]

Frenchy I would be curious to see what your dry sift looks like under a microscope.

You keep asking for 'science' yet have not even used a $40 usb scope to look at what you are making and that confuses me..

I have seen you claim that 'traditional' teks work just as well as mine, and that i'm not doing anything new.. so then where are all the sift shots that are just as clean around the world? Until I gave my method up basically it was just Sam who had pictures that pure, and nobody else was even close.

Just since last August when I gave this up, dry sifting in general has exploded and people realize it's really as easy as i'm making it look..

If the 'traditional' teks work this good, why wasn't everyone already doing it? Why wasn't it common knowledge all over the internet? Dry sifting isn't new as you've pointed out...

So where were all the shots and methods that 'worked' just as well as mine?

I still don't see them.

I will not do shot, we will share trims and work next to each other, you can then do as much macro as you wish.
Is that good enough for you?
I will have my screen very soon, be a little more patient and speaking of showing, bring something to the Cup, 707 born and raised that you are, you will blow me away with your tasty dry sieve, no pictures please you have shown plenty of that.

 

[DrySiftWizrd]

I don't have access to any trim at the moment. I haven't for some time as i've taken a big step back from the 'scene' if you will to do this.

If you have access to some nice trim and/or popcorns that are nice and cured/etc. and I am *more than willing* to run side by side using traditional methods vs. what i'm doing.

I never claimed it to be the best thing since sliced bread haha.. but I definitely believe it is a large upgrade to anything else that was available out there.

Plenty of people have tried this method and it works fantastic and people are getting incredible results.. many of which rival the purity of a good ice wax..

If that had been the case with traditional teks, i'd just think it would have caught on by now, wouldn't you think? Sam is very close to the vest on his tek and exactly how he does it, but I don't think i'm that far off and just about anyone can do it quickly and easily given a little bit of simple prep work.

I guess i'm more just bummed that it has exploded the dry sift scene and you seem to think 'ehh big deal' but.. people are getting fantastic results in a fraction.. lol.. a fraction of a fraction of the time as previously thought needed.. and i'm still getting guff.

I guess you can't make everyone happy lol.

I know you love science and 'proof'.. well.. you still haven't showed us how pure you can get your sift? Myself, Sam, Ester and others have shared. To the best of my knowledge, i've never seen any of yours...

Do you have any that you can take shots of? I'm genuinely curious.. but the issue I run into with most sifters is that they refuse to take microscope shots because they are scared what they will find...

Not saying that is the case, because I *know* you know what you are talking about, but I think you need to think outside the box a hair and instead of focusing on straight terpenes and flavor/smell, think more on purity levels.

You make your bubble hash a certain way no? Why? I love my dry sift method because you separate ALL TRICHOME SIZES at the very same time, and in the end achieve a 'fuller' product.. you get all those glands that you for the exact same reason, skip bags in your process for making ice wax.

You should know as well as anyone that the idea behind what i'm doing, not vibrating or shaking, is awesome. EVERYONE was carding, shaking, vibrating, and nobody ever thought to simply... not shake it.

Thousands of replies on this site and a thread which garnered 30k views and well over a thousand replies in 3 months showed me that.. I asked for months and eventually cracked and gave up the method.

Methinks you should invest in a usb scope friend.. they are cheap, or i'll just ship you one.

Cheers dude.. don't think i'm trying to be combative, just trying to understand here..

It's good for everyone to talk about this..

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

The terpenes are not exactly made in the trichomes but on the underside, nonetheless I was wrong and understood that it was more than terpenes precursors that were flowing up the stalk. I stand corrected..

View Image
View image in gallery​

This a quote of the paper:
Dr. Pate explained that while the chemical precursors for the creation of cannabinoids are absorbed through the roots from the soil and are found throughout the plant, cannabinoids and terpenes are manufactured within the trichomes by a rosette of cells at the base of each trichome head. “The glandular trichomes [...] are characterized by a secretory disc of one to 13 cells supported by a layer of stipe cells above a layer of base cells embedded in the epidermis.

No problem I knew you were wrong, I worked with Dave Pate for years, and a lot of other researchers as well. Dave is not a bontanist but he understands Cannabis pretty well as I taught him all I know on the subject, if he did not already know it.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

nope but is that traditions or myths???

To be honest I am shocked and surprised you did not hear that unpressed dry sift resin should not be smoked, it will drive you crazy.
If you worked mostly in hand rubbed areas in India that might be the reason, I heard it in every dry sift area I worked in, or visited, over and over.

I am curious if any there are any other people who have been to traditional dry sift areas, talked to farmers and hash makers, and did not hear that smoking unpressed resin will drive you crazy?
Can I hear form people that did or did not? I have a pool in the next thread in the Hashish section.
-SamS