Proper maturity for an Ace sativa - ignore the trichomes?
- Thread starter de145
- Start date
^ nice link!
everyone gets to determine for themselves what technique they employ. educated and informed decisions are a good thing.
i like the way the article says old school smoked new vegetative growth. i smoke new veg growth on unknown landraces and some can be decent potency. they can give me a heads up on the type of high the buds will give out. this enables to to select males and even females early on for potential pollen chucking experiments.
i believe per my personal smoking experiences and those of my strain testers that really good landraces are much more potent, longer durations of high effects, no tolerance build up issues and better highs than the new adam strains. mother nature (gaia) is one hell of a breeder!
Adze
Member
I agree, and it is great to see that some scientific research has been done on this issue. There have been quite a range of views expressed about the “best” time to harvest. So much is dependent on tastes and subjective impressions that it is hard gage their relevance to our own harvests. I welcome a bit of hard data into the equation. Are there any of Dr. Paul Mahlberg’s original studies available?
Thanks for the link. It was a good read. I don't feel as bad about harvesting my plants while the the trichs are still mostly clear. I've always done this simply because I prefer the effect this way. If I wait longer I find the herb picks up unpleasant side effects. (Sleepiness, stupor, lack of motivation etc.)
He produced quite a lot of interesting stuff: click but most of it is not available online
And it is always nice to have your flowering times reduced. Sativa's take long enough anyway
Well thanks to sampling early and often after the info in this thread I agree entirely with that study that Mostly Me posted recently: I've been consistently harvesting far later than I should.
I was really hung up on the old thing about amber and frosty resin glands but that's completely wrong as far as my testing has revealed: the potency seems to be strongest and clearest just as the resin glands *start* to change from clear to frosty. That kind of silvery stage.
I have a consistent reproducible routine for test smoking: must be first toke of the day, 3 very small tokes of material quick dried the same way and I time the length of the effect and subjectively judge it's potency.
I've found the 'legs' or time of effect is a pretty good accurate way to find the sweet spot. Anything under an hour and a half of effect corresponds with a weaker high, it really seems to peak with most of my strains at 2 to 3 hours of good strong effect for 3 very small tokes.
The study Mostly Me posted stated if I recall correctly, that any amount of colour in the resin glands indicates overripeness and falling potency and my sampling seems to agree with that.
I've noticed that, so far, my new definition of peak ripeness seems to correspond pretty closely to the point where the pistils / hairs are about 50% dead looking and 50% fresh looking. This is exactly what old time growers used to tell me was the best harvest point but I always thought we knew better now with microscopes and trichome scrutinizing.
Also I'm not growing for anything but personal use and I tend to store it for months and a late harvest results in a really degraded product after months of storage, very heavy CBN effect that brings you down unpleasantly.
I actually do think there is an objective best time to harvest weed, at the peak of ripeness and strength, if it's not to your taste at that point then pick another strain, but don't harvest at the wrong time, that's just a cheap trick that results in substandard results.
Ripe is ripe.
I was really hung up on the old thing about amber and frosty resin glands but that's completely wrong as far as my testing has revealed: the potency seems to be strongest and clearest just as the resin glands *start* to change from clear to frosty. That kind of silvery stage.
I have a consistent reproducible routine for test smoking: must be first toke of the day, 3 very small tokes of material quick dried the same way and I time the length of the effect and subjectively judge it's potency.
I've found the 'legs' or time of effect is a pretty good accurate way to find the sweet spot. Anything under an hour and a half of effect corresponds with a weaker high, it really seems to peak with most of my strains at 2 to 3 hours of good strong effect for 3 very small tokes.
The study Mostly Me posted stated if I recall correctly, that any amount of colour in the resin glands indicates overripeness and falling potency and my sampling seems to agree with that.
I've noticed that, so far, my new definition of peak ripeness seems to correspond pretty closely to the point where the pistils / hairs are about 50% dead looking and 50% fresh looking. This is exactly what old time growers used to tell me was the best harvest point but I always thought we knew better now with microscopes and trichome scrutinizing.
Also I'm not growing for anything but personal use and I tend to store it for months and a late harvest results in a really degraded product after months of storage, very heavy CBN effect that brings you down unpleasantly.
I actually do think there is an objective best time to harvest weed, at the peak of ripeness and strength, if it's not to your taste at that point then pick another strain, but don't harvest at the wrong time, that's just a cheap trick that results in substandard results.
Ripe is ripe.
Greetings,
I have to agree with you partially de145. I've been pushing it lately on the advice of others, and I'm going back to harvesting a bit earlier again. If I start seeing any amber, I cut.
I'm not so sure on using the pistils solely for the determination. I only use the pistils to tell me when to start looking at the resin. I have a plant that looks very ripe by the pistils, but when I look at the resin, it is all clear. It seems to need to go through a couple of cycles where it looks done, then suddenly a new flush of pistils come out. Only after a couple of times, do the resins start to cloud up. I've never let this one get amber at all.
Half cloudy, half clear, and no more than a scattering of amber. But I may change my mind on any particular strain, so always experiment until you "know" the strain.
I think one of the reasons that weed was so great back in the day when strains were exotic, is the growers grew the same strain for generations of their family. When the strain gets popular, and everyone starts growing it, quality always seems to go downhill. Greed overcomes dedication. It happened to Mexican, then Colombian and Jamaican, then even Thai Sticks went away.
ThaiBliss
I have to agree with you partially de145. I've been pushing it lately on the advice of others, and I'm going back to harvesting a bit earlier again. If I start seeing any amber, I cut.
I'm not so sure on using the pistils solely for the determination. I only use the pistils to tell me when to start looking at the resin. I have a plant that looks very ripe by the pistils, but when I look at the resin, it is all clear. It seems to need to go through a couple of cycles where it looks done, then suddenly a new flush of pistils come out. Only after a couple of times, do the resins start to cloud up. I've never let this one get amber at all.
Half cloudy, half clear, and no more than a scattering of amber. But I may change my mind on any particular strain, so always experiment until you "know" the strain.
I think one of the reasons that weed was so great back in the day when strains were exotic, is the growers grew the same strain for generations of their family. When the strain gets popular, and everyone starts growing it, quality always seems to go downhill. Greed overcomes dedication. It happened to Mexican, then Colombian and Jamaican, then even Thai Sticks went away.
ThaiBliss
Maybe when an early pheno test gives you that intense body and head rush on first toke and you think "but it's just early so it's going to be rushy like that" what we're actually experiencing is much higher potency.
That table in the link that MostlyMe posted that shows the nanograms of thc at different resin gland appearance is pretty telling, there is an absolutely enormous difference in quantity of thc between clear and amber glands, it falls of *drastically* when they go amber.
Perhaps THC doesn't last as long in the blood stream but CBN lasts much longer so that's why we experience short legs but intense high with earlier harvest and less intense high but longer legs with later harvest?
I always feel more of that rush / intense high with early samples of my stuff than when I actually harvest, I just thought it was immaturity before, now I wonder if it was actually peak ripeness.
That table in the link that MostlyMe posted that shows the nanograms of thc at different resin gland appearance is pretty telling, there is an absolutely enormous difference in quantity of thc between clear and amber glands, it falls of *drastically* when they go amber.
Perhaps THC doesn't last as long in the blood stream but CBN lasts much longer so that's why we experience short legs but intense high with earlier harvest and less intense high but longer legs with later harvest?
I always feel more of that rush / intense high with early samples of my stuff than when I actually harvest, I just thought it was immaturity before, now I wonder if it was actually peak ripeness.
Wow...great thread. I have been gnawing on this issue for quite a while and this is incredibly thought-provoking and informative.
I'm in favor of trying to let a sat be a sat. Why would I grow something for 1/3 of a year or so and have it knock me over the head like Northern Lights? Nope - I want that certain "sat" something. Up...trippy...visual...warm...bring it on. At the same time, I like the high to have "legs" - "gravitas." Kinda like a good stereo system - bass, mid-range, and treble. Well-balanced. Highly subjective. I know that there is such a thing as harvesting too early - for me at least - I guess the high is bright and up but descends relatively quickly -lacks a bass presence.
I have a question that wasn't addressed -I don't think- in the thread. This goes out to the brave, inside growers of deep sats who cut their light to 11/13 (or more) during flower. Do you think that this speeds up maturation in terms of flower time?
I ask because I have a few Ace/CBG relatively deep sats going - Panama, VbxT, Zamaldelica and Malawi - I switched 'em to 11/13 relatively early in flowering and it seems to me as if a Panama and VbXT are looking close to harvest - they are both at 70 days. It seems a tad quick - I was thinking of taking 'em to 11 or 12 weeks - but they are looking like they are beginning to meet the criteria in the article and also conforms to what some of you have discussed. I add that the VbXT is a clone from a mature Mom - pre-flowered, alternate branches, etc.
Anyhow, thanks for the interesting read!
I'm in favor of trying to let a sat be a sat. Why would I grow something for 1/3 of a year or so and have it knock me over the head like Northern Lights? Nope - I want that certain "sat" something. Up...trippy...visual...warm...bring it on. At the same time, I like the high to have "legs" - "gravitas." Kinda like a good stereo system - bass, mid-range, and treble. Well-balanced. Highly subjective. I know that there is such a thing as harvesting too early - for me at least - I guess the high is bright and up but descends relatively quickly -lacks a bass presence.
I have a question that wasn't addressed -I don't think- in the thread. This goes out to the brave, inside growers of deep sats who cut their light to 11/13 (or more) during flower. Do you think that this speeds up maturation in terms of flower time?
I ask because I have a few Ace/CBG relatively deep sats going - Panama, VbxT, Zamaldelica and Malawi - I switched 'em to 11/13 relatively early in flowering and it seems to me as if a Panama and VbXT are looking close to harvest - they are both at 70 days. It seems a tad quick - I was thinking of taking 'em to 11 or 12 weeks - but they are looking like they are beginning to meet the criteria in the article and also conforms to what some of you have discussed. I add that the VbXT is a clone from a mature Mom - pre-flowered, alternate branches, etc.
Anyhow, thanks for the interesting read!
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I considered this also and after some research, I decided against it. Obviously it would hurt yield a bit, but if that was the only downside, I would do it. What really put me off was a study showing THC-production halves in a 10/14 situation, compared to 12/12. Perhaps 11/13 is a good compromise, but I wouldn't expect a big enough reduction of flowering time to be really worth it.
Adze
Member
Mayan,
I have a haze cutting that I matured outside by cutting the light to 10.5/13.5 earlier this year. This is Southern California summer sun, so it got lots of energy. I’ve run this cutting several times and it really lost potency on the short hours. It does speed maturity but the lost of strength was not worth it. It’s an anecdotal observation but I thought after MostlyMe’s reference to the study about THC loss that I’d mention it.
Adze.
I have a haze cutting that I matured outside by cutting the light to 10.5/13.5 earlier this year. This is Southern California summer sun, so it got lots of energy. I’ve run this cutting several times and it really lost potency on the short hours. It does speed maturity but the lost of strength was not worth it. It’s an anecdotal observation but I thought after MostlyMe’s reference to the study about THC loss that I’d mention it.
Adze.
Just to throw in my two cents. From what I have observed in the 60's until now is that a lot of those country of origin herbs we had back in the day were picked with the trichomes clear or cloudy and they amber-ed up in transport.
Great thread with everybody contributing.
Also, as a young lad in California I thought everybody did it. I remember looking at the first Oaxacan spears I ever got and asking myself, "How the hell do they get it to do this!?" I had no concept of Day/Night lengths and flowering(still a kid) so till I figured it out and even after, trying to find strains that would finish in time, I smoked even fan leaves. Some of the terminal meristems used to get us really really high and no trichomes on anything yet. I still do it sometimes these days on males, you can tell alot.
Great thread with everybody contributing.
Adze,
I agree with your observations. But I don't think 12/12 is a magical number. With sativa strains, I have settled on about 11.75 / 12.25, then incrementally going to about 11.25 - 12.75 after it starts to show signs of fox-tailing or secondary flushes of pistils. I try to mimic what actually occurs in the sub-tropics.
ThaiBliss
Out of curiosity, what is your benchmark for potency? Indoor grows? I've never managed to get better potency with outdoor grows, but then again I live in a moderate climate.
I doubt that reduction of light hours really makes a difference in flowering time that's worthwhile. Did you ever do a proper comparison?
