Proper maturity for an Ace sativa - ignore the trichomes?

[crazyfool*]

Here's a related question. Until I started growing I never really had properly cured bud so its been an interesting learning experience for me to cure my harvests. I had no idea just how much it changes the effects and potency.

It seems to me that the longer you cure it, the more a sample will start to pick up increasingly narcotic and indica effects. It's a bit like letting the plant flower for longer. Do others find this to be the case?

For instance I still have a little of my first godly Nep Jam from last year sitting in a jar. As it has aged its become increasingly heavy and narcotic in effect. Originally it definitely had what I would call a sativa effect but the last time I smoked it the experience was dark, heavy and paranoid which is a typical reaction for me to a strong indica hybrid.

the curing process is due to some quemical reactions that occur when the plant comes down, all sugar and startch starts to change its molecular structure...thus causing totaly different taste and potency to a freshly dry bud...funny you mention this because I find more pleasnt to smoke a month cured bud then some bud that has been curing for too long, I find that optimal cure, at least in my harvests , temperature and humidity to be arround 3 months for sativas wich are more fluffy and has more contact area with Oxigen, and maybe 6 months top for indicas with chunky nugs.... IMVHO I find that if buds cure for too long THC oxidises and becomes THCA , and CBD expresses much more present then THC .... and the terpene profile seems to start to fade out after a long cure....Its a verry personal thing...many frieds say I´m Crazy, that Quality anja only gets better with longer cure, but I think it´s a very personal plant profile, like whine, people say the older the whine the better, but if the whine is no good, it will not last a long shelflife! ... so once again, to know the perfect curing time, of determined plant, only by letting it cure...smoke a nug, cure another week smoke another nug...cure another week smoke another bud! ..............thats my personal oppinion, I´m not a chemist, and not a biologist, I´m a financial employee witch loves weed more then life itself.... and i´m also a freekin CRAZYFOOL, like my nickname sggests, so some might agree with me, and some might not, but what I say here, is no based in studies ore anything only personal experience and a bit of reading, so if all this I say is bull shit... all I cas say is....My Bad!

this thread is awsome! i´m loving to read all of what is being said!

 

[crazyfool*]

you know guys, I was thinking about this thread the hole night, and I became uppon a question, with some fruits, like oranges, bananas , peaches, it´s quite common to pluck the fruits a bit green, becaus they will continue to mature, after they have been plucked untill they are sweet and tasty for our consumption .... and I was thinking, how this process would occur in flowers, since I have observed that rose flowers too, mature with time, after being picke out, so, I imagine that cannabis would act the same way. ok, till this point of my thinking, it was all ok, but thhen I started to think about how the humidity, and sugar content would affect the final product, I mean, ancient colombian tribes started to cure their colombian ganja by tearin off peices of bark to reduce moisture, increase taste and early mature the plant.....but is there a studie about cannabinoid profile changes during the curing process? is there a study based on how to cure prefectly to optimize terpene and cannabinoid profile by the plants diet and watering schedual? .....??????? ..... man, my mind is swirling in a pool of questions when I think about this thread, there are sooooo many variables that can change the outcome of the final product that when I finish thinking about one question, I have 5 more to ask! ..........I really got to stop smoking these sativas! uahauhhauah....

 

[Only Ornamental]

@crazyfool
It's ethylene which causes ripening in fruits and in roses. Bananas for example are often shipped green and then the containers are literally flooded with ethylene gas to make turn them yellow. Roses on the other hand are sometimes treated with an ethylene inhibitor in the vase to make them hold longer. And did you ever wonder why ALL the orchids in the garden center are flowering and that at the same stage? They too have been in a greenhouse flooded with ethylene. The list goes on and on...
On the other hand, curing is a process wherein the plant is short of dying or already very dead. Still, certain enzymes still work (hence the higher humidity necessary for the curing process). Not sure whether ethylene at that point would do something good as its action depends on intracellular signalling and a viable, healthy cell.

 

[crazyfool*]

@crazyfool
It's ethylene which causes ripening in fruits and in roses. Bananas for example are often shipped green and then the containers are literally flooded with ethylene gas to make turn them yellow. Roses on the other hand are sometimes treated with an ethylene inhibitor in the vase to make them hold longer. And did you ever wonder why ALL the orchids in the garden center are flowering and that at the same stage? They too have been in a greenhouse flooded with ethylene. The list goes on and on...
On the other hand, curing is a process wherein the plant is short of dying or already very dead. Still, certain enzymes still work (hence the higher humidity necessary for the curing process). Not sure whether ethylene at that point would do something good as its action depends on intracellular signalling and a viable, healthy cell.

awsome man, I had no Idea about that whole ethilene thing .....
do you think ethylene would help some sativas to rippen trichomes to maybe up to 20% amber? .... I always wondered if Ganja would continue to rippen after it got harvested, I do believe so! and would go further, and say that the perfect cure would depend a lot on the time spent maturing after the plant was harvested... for example, if plant A has crispy whiffy buds, it would take a less time for it to dry and cure then plant B with fat buds, but, if both were taken to full rippeness before being chopped, this shorter drying time would be more beneficial to Plant A, because this would give her less time to continue maturing and possibly begin braking her tricomes in comparison to plant B witch would take maybe a couple of weeks longer at drying stage causing the plat to go over rippe and tricomes brake down? ......

 

[Only Ornamental]

Ehhh.. not sure.... I mean mainly what you mean...
What do you define as 'drying stage': When you keep your living plants dryer prior to chopping or the time between harvest and cure?

In the former case:
Fruits and seeds ripen (and then get overripe) whereas plants get old, older, and die.
Also trichomes, they follow a life cycle and the 'psychedelic' apex of it is what some call 'ripe' or 'mature'. Using ethylene enhances the life cycle of the plant and might also enhance the cycle of trichomes. But that means simply, that your window of opportunity (between harvesting too early and too late) may just come sooner and be shorter. That also means that the plant had less time to grow, less time to build trichomes and less time to produce secondary metabolites (cannabinoids, terpenes etc.) whereas it starts to break them down earlier and faster... you'd be screwed...

If its the latter one, you may test ethylene but it won't enhance the loss of water or speed up the drying process. It just might boost certain metabolic processes in the first 1-2 days upside down but it is not just breaking down starch and proteins but many things... eventually also the stuff you seek? If you have access to ethylene (like the one used for super-hot welding torches), you could test it on a few buds or a spare plant?
Just remember, ethylene highly flammable and explosive! So please, don't blow up you home (would be too bad about the weed )!

EDIT: Forgot something.
Ethylene has an optimal (for this purpose unknown) concentration likely in the low ppm range. You would have to know that first... it's similar to gasing with CO2.
You could try unripe apples, they produce fairly high amounts of ethylene. Though in a growth cabinet, you would have to seal it a bit or you loose all the gas whereas in a jar you'd get a too high humidity (apples contain a lot of water) and hence mold.

If you fear breaking trichomes off, you may manipulate the plants less and more gently. If you fear loosing THC to oxidation, you're better off by adjusting the relative air humidity for a smooth drying .

P.S. I suppose that we're now waaaay off topic... sorry for that.... complain @ mods to split the thread

 

[BongMasterBabaj]

Thx Dubi for the super advise you are givving on Sativas! Can't wait to start growing more Sativa strains from your awesome Catalog

 

[crazyfool*]

Ehhh.. not sure.... I mean mainly what you mean...
What do you define as 'drying stage': When you keep your living plants dryer prior to chopping or the time between harvest and cure?

In the former case:
Fruits and seeds ripen (and then get overripe) whereas plants get old, older, and die.
Also trichomes, they follow a life cycle and the 'psychedelic' apex of it is what some call 'ripe' or 'mature'. Using ethylene enhances the life cycle of the plant and might also enhance the cycle of trichomes. But that means simply, that your window of opportunity (between harvesting too early and too late) may just come sooner and be shorter. That also means that the plant had less time to grow, less time to build trichomes and less time to produce secondary metabolites (cannabinoids, terpenes etc.) whereas it starts to break them down earlier and faster... you'd be screwed...

If its the latter one, you may test ethylene but it won't enhance the loss of water or speed up the drying process. It just might boost certain metabolic processes in the first 1-2 days upside down but it is not just breaking down starch and proteins but many things... eventually also the stuff you seek? If you have access to ethylene (like the one used for super-hot welding torches), you could test it on a few buds or a spare plant?
Just remember, ethylene highly flammable and explosive! So please, don't blow up you home (would be too bad about the weed )!

EDIT: Forgot something.
Ethylene has an optimal (for this purpose unknown) concentration likely in the low ppm range. You would have to know that first... it's similar to gasing with CO2.
You could try unripe apples, they produce fairly high amounts of ethylene. Though in a growth cabinet, you would have to seal it a bit or you loose all the gas whereas in a jar you'd get a too high humidity (apples contain a lot of water) and hence mold.

If you fear breaking trichomes off, you may manipulate the plants less and more gently. If you fear loosing THC to oxidation, you're better off by adjusting the relative air humidity for a smooth drying .

P.S. I suppose that we're now waaaay off topic... sorry for that.... complain @ mods to split the thread

don´t think we are so offtopic, I men, we are still talking about proper maturity, and how that may influence the plants final product .... hehehe....

when I was talking about the afterlife maturation of the plant, I was talking about the drying process, right after you chopp the plant down, I presume the whole plant will continue to matura a but while there is water in it, like fruits...and was wondering if bud desity would interfere in this stage , because whiffy buds dry out a lot faster then dense buds....

so taking in mynd that one harvests by ticome stage, and the plant continues to mature after being culled, I would assume that buds wich are less dense, would dry faster, resulting in less tricomes becoming overmature, or brake off, in comparisson to a bud wich is denser and could take a couple more weeks drying and maturing.

PS.. I have no access to this gas, or whatsoever, I´m a simple grower, hehehe maybe oneday I´ll have a extreme setup like some fellow ICmaggers =)

 

[Only Ornamental]

I presume the whole plant will continue to matura a but while there is water in it, like fruits...

You're right; but the plant should be in the dark during that 'process'. Preferably, the plant breaks down only its energy reserve, sugars (e.g. starch) and proteins, but doesn't degrades the secondary metabolites (THC, essential oil etc.). Using ethylene might trigger the latter, who knows...

...whiffy buds dry out a lot faster then dense buds....

That's why one puts the buds in a jar for the cure so that a 100 grams of whatever bud should take always the same time to slowly dry out . I guess, others already said it; if you want to speed up the drying process for a special occasion or a very dense budded strain, you can pre-dry your plant in the pot or play around with cutting fan leaves etc.

I would assume that buds wich are less dense, would dry faster, resulting in less tricomes becoming overmature, or brake off, in comparisson to a bud wich is denser and could take a couple more weeks drying and maturing.

That's why you pre-dry rather fast for a few days and put it then in the jar (with a regulated constant rel. air humidity and a controlled progressively declining bud humidity). In there, no trichomes break off if you don't shake it all the time .

I have no access to this gas, or whatsoever, I´m a simple grower...

As said before, you certainly do have access to apples . Just be careful with a too high humidity and you should do fine. Guess, that'll make a nice documentary thread on an 'experiment gone rogue' LoL!

 

[ThaiBliss]

Greetings,

Last night I was collecting some smoke reports from other threads about Zamal and Zamaldelica. I found a great one about Zamal:

Unknown Guest - "No doubt the very best weed I smoked in my life was Zamal. It only happened to me a couple of times to find some stash that reminded of zamal's quality in holland. The best weed is the one that was not touched nor fertilized by man during its whole life. When they hear about our HPSs and fertilizers stuff, they laugh a lot."

I wish I had documented the source, because I went back and tried to find it and could not. But, the reason I'm bringing it up here is a description of a custom in Reunion Island where Zamal is grown, from the same posting as the quote above. They have huge plants that grow for a year or even multiple years. They break a branch enough to kill it when it is ripe, and leave the buds on the plant in the sun for a year to five years, and then smoke it. It is supposed to be the best quality. Hard to believe, but because of the truth that I see, IMHO, of the rest of the quote that I captured above, I think it is possible. I have always thought the people are reducing quality by fertilizing their plants. See my signature, "Bright Light and Low Nutrients".

I have been around long enough to have heard some crazy theories about cannabis culture. When I was young, it was widely regarded to be a valid technique to remove the big fan leaves while the plant was growing. I remember doing it, and it only seemed to make the buds leafier, not more potent. If anything, I believed it to be less potent. As I have gained more experience, I have come to believe that this notion of removing leaves had come about by people seeing plants in the late phase of flowering when the big fan leaves turn yellow and fall off naturally, if the plants have not been over fertilized.

All the Best,

ThaiBliss

 

[Ed Canna]

nitrogen enriched storage

nitrogen enriched storage

Removing the oxygen from containers and storage. Then to replenish with nitrogen is the only way to stop degrading of cannabinoids and terpene profies.

 

[Rinse]

The highest quality and most potent buds are grown in organic soil and sun ripened, the plant using nutrients that are in the soil/compost from the beggining, any nutrients added during growth can alter the taste and effect, especially chems.
A lush green plant at harvest is one not grown right, it will never cure properly.

The genes of the plant, the resin and its phytocompounds, are only ever fully activated in sunlight.
Plants grown at lower latitudes and higher altitudes receive more intense rays hence the legendary tripping weeds from those areas.

Just look at the Spanish and Oz outdoor growers they know how its done.

 

[idiit]

interesting posts on ethelyne. malawi and mazambique are often cured in banana peels. maybe they know something?

^^

Cobs are maize(corn) or banana leaves which are wraped around dried bud as a curing method. In Malawi the finest herb harvested will undergo this process and will be transported in this way to all destinations around Africa and abroad. The cobs are then tied with hemp cords made from the stalks of the plant, binding each tip by going around and around with the cord and working it along it so it is completed sealed in the cob. I have heard that the bush men collect the pollen from the male plants and sprinkle the pre-cured bud in the cob with it before sealing. The cobs are then treated in a number of ways before they are ready. Some of these treatments that I have observed are: burying the cobs underground for a week - making a fire on the surface of the ground abovve the buried cobs and that the heat slowly cures them. Also they are put in the morning sun under a cloth and left for a few hours to cure on the roof. There are others but I am only mentioning the methods that I have personally observed. When the cob is opened - enough moisture is preserved in the bud but they are dry, golden and pleasant to smoke with the classic Malawi flavour. No cystals are lost in handleing and transportation and I have smoked a cob with an old friend once that was around 5 years old and it was potent and still 'A' grade which surprized me as I would have expected it to be degraded with time.There is just no way to explain this method - you will have to visit Sothern Africa and try it for yourself ! I will however get some photgraphic documentation of this process and start a thread on this curing method and the traditional way of processing ganja in Africa.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...skunk-magazine.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

i learned my cure lesson from my 2011 golden tiger. awesome! not all strains need the same cure time/cure effects from what i'm sampling. i just keep some bud kicked back and occasionally smoke some to see how the cure time affects the terpenes, potency and high effects. i keep notes for future reference. i don't use banana leaves yet but maybe i should try it out .

i'm an outdoor metro guerrilla grower. yesterday i harvested 1/2 lb. with construction workers up above me working 50 meters away on a tall shopping store complex. taking individual buds and putting a glass on 'em wasn't an option . individual conditions will drive the methods employed.

 

[Peacefrog]

interesting posts on ethelyne. malawi and mazambique are often cured in banana peels. maybe they know something?

Not trying to start anything but I feel the need to point that there is a significant difference between banana peels and banana leaves and not making this distinction could lead to disastrous results when curing buds. I'm pretty sure you meant leaves.

 

[idiit]

I'm pretty sure you meant leaves.

^ i do now.

not sure if leaves have ethelyne so idiit strikes again!

 

[The Hatter]

i don´t know if you get what I mean.... but to resume, this specific cut that is ripe at 17 weeks, produce top notcho tropical colombian goodness to the core! when taken to 20 weeks didn´t loose its tropical up giggly sativa goofy feeling high, but made other effects much more present, making this weed hard to chuck at times due to its devastating after effect... making one paranoid, scared, and not relaxed at all! ... and from my sativa experience thats what I usually see, not a decrease in the high feeling, but a much heavier aftereffect, AND something I find worth mentioning is that the terpene profile changes a lot when over mature, sativas with a sweet citrus , lemony, fruity taste usually have their pallat blanded out when over mature, making thes delicious flavors appear only in backround....

to know if if your plant is going to have a decrease in quality ( takinhg in mind you enjoy the up clear sativa high) I´d recomend you let them mature well with no hurry, ocasionally take samples to compare after your total harvest to see at wich week the plant acheaved its peek, and also keep an eye on tricomes, eaven when they don´t turn amber if they start to brake , and fall off, means your plant is passing its maturaty point.

Thanks for the advice. I know exactly what you meant about how letting a sativa go long tends to give them a more heavy, devistating effect. I purposely harvest about a week or maybe even two earlier than what many would describe as ready for this very reason since I personally consider a lot of the heavy effects that come with letting them go longer unpleasant and stupor/paranoia inducing. Most of the other medical users I know go for that heavy, couch coma inducing effect that you find in heavy indica hybrids so they are always advising me to let mine keep going since they directly equate level of sedation and hangover with potency but for a person that finds those effects unpleasant there really is no point to it. Like everything else with gardening, it varies from strain to strain, plant to plant and person to personn which is why the advice I have seen repeated by several people in this thread about sampling the buds at various states of maturity is excellent council.

Speaking of which, it's really about time I took some tester buds from my new plants this time around. That panama literally exploded in flower growth this last week and a half. It took me by surprise because it seems to have radically increased its appetite for nutes way beyond the other plants which are winding down at this point. I've started having to brew her water/feed up separately from the others since she is dropping leaves and unlike the others I don't think she is anywhere near done. I'm still a novice when it comes to growing so every grow I tend to do something bone headed to learn from.

Crazyfool, this may be old news to you but I've found when I let a plant go too long that speeding up the cure by letting the bud dry out much more thoroughly before starting the jarred process seems to help mitigate some of the heavier hangover effects. It's always a balancing act for me between retaining that awesome clear headed upbeat sativa effect I am seeking and not losing too much weight from pulling early or leaving the bud too harsh because I cured it too fast.

 

[ThaiBliss]

I purposely harvest about a week or maybe even two earlier than what many would describe as ready... Most of the other medical users I know go for that heavy, couch coma inducing effect that you find in heavy indica hybrids so they are always advising me to let mine keep going since they directly equate level of sedation and hangover with potency...

Hatter, if I may interject... I'm with you on not equating the "beat down" effects with potency. I think we are in the minority.

I've started having to brew her water/feed up separately from the others since she is dropping leaves and unlike the others I don't think she is anywhere near done.

Here is another concept that I am clearly in the minority on. I think it is completely natural for sativa have it's leaves turn yellow and drop as it matures, some strains more than others. I even encourage it with nitrogen deprivation. This is a finger to the eye of other peoples sensibilities and they think I am cruelly torturing the plant. In my opinion, it is a natural nutrient cycle and the plants are adapted to it. It even makes the final product better and more potent, IMHO. Besides, it is even pretty to look at. Back in the day, buds were more colorful than what is being sold today. Check out these pictures:


This is my latest grow that I consider a little bit over fertilized. It ripened more quickly than I anticipated:

Here is what you can see if people quit pumping their plants with fertilizer and promoting heavy amounts of green chlorophyll:

O.K., O.K., I'm off of my soapbox... for now.

ThaiBliss

 

[LowFalutin]

so beautiful

 

[The Hatter]

Here is another concept that I am clearly in the minority on. I think it is completely natural for sativa have it's leaves turn yellow and drop as it matures, some strains more than others. I even encourage it with nitrogen deprivation. This is a finger to the eye of other peoples sensibilities and they think I am cruelly torturing the plant. In my opinion, it is a natural nutrient cycle and the plants are adapted to it. It even makes the final product better and more potent, IMHO. Besides, it is even pretty to look at. Back in the day, buds were more colorful than what is being sold today. Check out these pictures:

Unless I gauge things poorly, which happens a lot, I too like my sativas to yellow and drop some of their fan leaves by the end of flower but my Panama does not appear to be anywhere near the end. It's way too early for her to be dropping leaves like this. I've definitely made an error this time, but I do agree with you that by the end of flower your plants should look like a deciduous tree in fall. It's just if I let it happen to early it hurts my yield considerably.

Beautiful photos, by the way. Those colors in those plants look a bit like a really nice Nep Jam I had once. Unfortunately I never took proper photos of her. This is the only shot I got and it is terrible. Color is off, plants been hanging for a couple of day etc. The tops of the leaves were very colorful with yellows, reds and purples.

 

[ThaiBliss]

Unless I gauge things poorly, which happens a lot, I too like my sativas to yellow and drop some of their fan leaves by the end of flower but my Panama does not appear to be anywhere near the end. It's way too early for her to be dropping leaves like this. I've definitely made an error this time, but I do agree with you that by the end of flower your plants should look like a deciduous tree in fall. It's just if I let it happen to early it hurts my yield considerably.

Beautiful photos, by the way. Those colors in those plants look a bit like a really nice Nep Jam I had once. Unfortunately I never took proper photos of her. This is the only shot I got and it is terrible. Color is off, plants been hanging for a couple of day etc. The tops of the leaves were very colorful with yellows, reds and purples.

[URL="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=44227&pictureid=1144656&thumb=1"]View Image[/URL]

Looks good Hatter,

The picture is good enough to see that it was a beauty. I have some of those seeds. I'm going to have to give it a try some day.

ThaiBliss

 

[MostlyMe]

I think it's not just sativa's that benefit from a diet in their final weeks: you want to get rid of any excess nitrogen, that causes bad taste. As an organic grower that puts all his nutes in the soil before planting, I find it hard to make it happen though. Fortunately organic growing doesn't force nutes on the plant, so it isn't as much of a problem.

I read something interesting this weekend that may be relevant for this discussion: it seems peak potency is reached when trichomes are actually clear, not amber as common knowledge would have it! Going back to the OP, that might explain why waiting too long might destroy the sought-after sativa-characteristics, as cannabinoids are already breaking down - THC faster than others - and mellowing the high. For the most aggressive sativa's a little mellowing might not be a bad thing though.