Plant leaves feeling dry/paper like

[Redrum92]

My 2 cents: add calmag and raise light

 

[Rtaym22224]

Good information here. The foliar spraying didn’t do much. Plants were half to a full day overdue for a watering just did it. Ph 6.8 distilled 225ppm.
Added cal mag, fox farm sledgehammer, microbe, comeback formula

Runoff was 6.9ph 1000-1300ppm runoff each plant. Next watering I will water each 1 gal bag with 1.25 gal pure distilled.

I have a sonofarm 760w 8 row 4000pc Samsung led light with uv+ir and a master controller. I keep the light 3-4 feet above canopy level and dim…. Better to control heat and I can measure my par to keep it good with the lights set higher above the plants.

I think I’m having problems due to temp stress I increased temps from 73 to 79 rh is stable at 70% not using portable ac
Oscillating fan off the plants for now.

I think this will all self correct

Starting to see what looks like beginning cal/mag deficincies. I will foliar spray cal mag until the soil is less hot and the plant can properly uptake calmag from the soil

 

[Rtaym22224]

Chlorosis should be fixed adding more magnesium. But reading your last posts, seeing you measure both pH and EC, I would say overwatering issues. Overwatering can cause the roots to start rotting and stop assimilating nutrients. Both watering too much quantity and too frequently. Do you think that's a possibility?

In any case it looks like some kind of root issue if I had to bet money on it.

I do not believe it is a root issue.. I believe it is a combination of too much power of an oscillating fan on the plants all the time, too much light intensity too soon, and over feeding using hot soil with amendments on top of it causing nutrient lockout the chlorosis issue and mag/cal deficiencies

Ph of runoff is good ppm too high will saturate with distilled next watering.

I’m starting to see… temperature fluctuations from 71-80 now stabilized at about 79 degrees all the time 70% RH all the time no portable ac being used humidity is staying much higher that way.

With co2 and lights 24/7 my plants are going through water fast which tells me the roots are assimilating well and the stems have gotten twice as thick since transplanting them about two weeks ago.z

 

[hambre]

But I’m doing something also very wrong correct

Hi, I don`t wanna be THAT guy, but I have to be. You are putting a lot of stuff that isn`t needed at all. You control VPD but have your lights at 18% as if that means something, if you can`t control PPF it is random spray and pray with the amount of CO2 you have there. I don`t want to be mean, don`t take this as bad attitude. Then, you can`t control your EC, as you said, because all the amendments you use on your grow. The portable AC I recommend you to change it for a split, it consumes 1/3 and it is more efficient, so you will save a lot of money there. 500$ humidifier??? You have a lot of options for much, much less money, I bought one in my countr (Argentina, I know, it is different pricing) for less than 30 bucks.
IMHO, you are trying to micromanage things that are simpler than you think, and that make a mess on your growroom. Advices? Try using only peat, only rockwool, only coco coir, and a simple and cheap two parts fertilizer. Control EC, pH, you have CO2, AC, and you check VPD, you will be more than fine. Other than that, it is impossible to know what is happening to your plants with the amount of things you are doing there and everything people can say to you is just guessing.

Hope you are doing good and my opinion isn`t misinterpreted as bad ill. Cheers.

 

[Rtaym22224]

Hi, I don`t wanna be THAT guy, but I have to be. You are putting a lot of stuff that isn`t needed at all. You control VPD but have your lights at 18% as if that means something, if you can`t control PPF it is random spray and pray with the amount of CO2 you have there. I don`t want to be mean, don`t take this as bad attitude. Then, you can`t control your EC, as you said, because all the amendments you use on your grow. The portable AC I recommend you to change it for a split, it consumes 1/3 and it is more efficient, so you will save a lot of money there. 500$ humidifier??? You have a lot of options for much, much less money, I bought one in my countr (Argentina, I know, it is different pricing) for less than 30 bucks.
IMHO, you are trying to micromanage things that are simpler than you think, and that make a mess on your growroom. Advices? Try using only peat, only rockwool, only coco coir, and a simple and cheap two parts fertilizer. Control EC, pH, you have CO2, AC, and you check VPD, you will be more than fine. Other than that, it is impossible to know what is happening to your plants with the amount of things you are doing there and everything people can say to you is just guessing.

Hope you are doing good and my opinion isn`t misinterpreted as bad ill. Cheers.

I agree with you I am overdoing it with everything from soil amendments to nute amendments nutes in general , confusing things by doing a foliar spray with MAP Epsom water a few times, foliar spray with cal mag a few times

I’m making my soil too hot to start with, I shouldn’t mix recipe 420 soil with ocean forest like I tried doing…

I should use just ocean forest with my added perlite and rocks at the bottom; small amount of earthworm castings mychorrizhae small amount of compost mixed in. That’s my best idea. And then just giving the plants pure RO water for many many many many weeks. Bought an ro system.
When I start feeding I’ll still try fox farm but will feed at 1/4 strength recommended for each growth stage. I may add organic amendments/nutrients instead of doing this. Or maybe a little if both.

My problem from the beginning has been soil/nutes too hot. I am starting to water each plant with quite a bit more water to make sure im seeing 30% runoff to prevent buildup. I am using a new pressure water vivosun sprayer now for more even very slow watering. I take an hour to water each plant. I was having dry pocket issues.
and I am mixing a small amount of aloe into my water im using ph 6.8 ec 200ppm as of my watering this morning.

Like I said not going to transplant these with ec runoff at 1000 i can bring that down to 300 in 2 days my next watering each plant distilled and maintain 6.8-6.9 ph.

Initially in my earlier threads I was killing my plants by overwatering and improper watering techniques (on all levels). I have perfected watering. My plants usually get water 1/2 day after they probably need it. Only way I’ve avoided overwatering is letting the soil get a little extra dry but not so much it harms the plants.

Again I believe if I pulled all of my plants and inspected the root systems they would be totally healthy: with a different plant in one of my older threads one guy said to transplant and inspect roots they were likely rotting from overwatering. I pulled that plant and the root system was a powerful thick healthy white. Based on the rate my plants are drinking (and how much more frequently I need to water at first every four days now it’s every day two weeks later). Stems are much much thicker since transplant. This tells me I have a healthy root system.

As of my very first thread here, I have perfected environment,Vpd, lighting measures with PAR meter at all plant levels, perfect intake exhaust combo running filters on both ends, co2 on point 24/7, my watering habits are good now, I’ve lost a lot of plants to basic trial and error crap and beginner stuff but I think I finally have a handle on my grow on all levels.

I need to feed much less and use soil that ain’t so hot. Just give plants ro water. Maybe add some soil amendments like compost castings and organic nutes 7-8 weeks after first transplant just feeding them ro water. After next transplant wait another 7-8 weeks then add soil amendments and nutes again. All the way through flower and all organic. I think I will try this method instead of fox farm

I like to veg my plants for about 16-18 weeks

I do keep a very detailed journal and photo log for everything I do regarding my plants environment feeding watering j chart everything. This is helping me learn from mistakes and figure out when I’m making them.

My first twelve plants I went through ended up in the garbage as I was perfecting indoor soil grow with co2 and perfecting environment

These current four have been going strong for a while now they’re just suffering a bit right now. I believe I have this problem solved the plants will be stunted for a week week and a half is my guess

 

[Rtaym22224]

I now have my intake directed straight at my LEDs this is controlling temperature much more effectively I’m running a 6” ac infinity t6 fan with a carbon filter for intake running at half speed. Temps stable at 78 humidity much higher with no portable ac.

Exhaust is an 8” inline with carbon filter with multiple turns and a ducting reducer from 8 to 6 and exhausts out a window. I run this on speed 3 all the time.

I think I will try and treat noticeable deficiencies with foliar sprays until I am able to flush these plants in a couple days to get the runoff down to about 300ppm from 1000. I think I’m having nute deficincies because of an uptake problem due to oversaturarion of nutes and salt buildup

I’m seeing visible cal/mag deficincies chlorosis and early stage N deficincies

 

[Rtaym22224]

I have my circulating fan pointed at my cobs not at my plants, and the plants are getting the blow that’s bouncing off the tent walls.

This seems like the best bit of advice given the situation you've described and the way the pics look to me. I see on lower leaves what appears to be light stress which would suggest you had the lights too close or set too strong previously but have managed to correct it other wise it would be on the top leaves as well which says to me the light stressed leaves were the top leaves or at least closer to the top when it happened (the bleached out area lower and on the left side in the pic). Since there is still some form of stress going on it may still be worthwhile to reduce the power on the lights a little more even if you managed to stop the light bleaching. The RH might not be at optimal levels but it doesn't sound so low that it should be causing widespread problems like it appears in the pic. Plus if you redirect the fans so they're not affecting your plants so directly it might even improve. In an indoor grow air movement created by a fan is important but people often make it too strong and point it directly at the plants. In my experience I've never grown with LEDs yet but it's always been better to have the fan blowing more towards the heat source (the light) but at an angle that allows the air movement created by the fans to bounce off the walls and affect the plants indirectly. Plants don't need a lot of movement from air circulation to positively effect their growth. It just needs enough that the leaves slightly dance or flutter in the breeze. So my advice would be to adjust the position of the fan (even if it oscillates) if the fan is at any point blowing directly on the plants and maybe nudge the power on the light slightly lower or raise the light slightly higher. Then give it a few days to see what impact these changes have on the plant. Since you're running the lights 24/7 and can't change that due to circumstances I would say don't mist the plants. In general I advise against misting plants in an indoor grow and most especially during lights on. If you do mist plants, IMHO it's best to do so just before lights out allowing the moisture to evaporate and/or be absorbed by the plant when it's dark so that any moisture on the leaves is gone when the lights come back on. little beads/droplets sitting on leaves under a bright light can begin to act like tiny magnifying glasses and that would tend to undo any benefit achieved by reducing the light's power or moving it further away. I know in nature plants get rained on but in nature plants generally have an opportunity to dry off before the sun comes back out at full strength. In an indoor environment it's not necessarily advisable to completely mimic nature because other factors imitating nature are kind of idealized. Misting plants is okay once in a while at the right time as kind of a treat but if you do it too often the plants come to expect it (get addicted to it) this isn't so much of a factor in the veg stage but misting plants can lead to big problems in the flowering stage so it's best to just not let the plants have any chance to get used to it at all. Kind of like giving sugar to a baby, it's okay once in a blue moon as a treat but you don't want it to become a habit so it's best not to do it at all.

Intake fan now dirextly blowing on cobs this is working MUCH better already ty

 

[hambre]

I now have my intake directed straight at my LEDs this is controlling temperature much more effectively I’m running a 6” ac infinity t6 fan with a carbon filter for intake running at half speed. Temps stable at 78 humidity much higher with no portable ac.

Exhaust is an 8” inline with carbon filter with multiple turns and a ducting reducer from 8 to 6 and exhausts out a window. I run this on speed 3 all the time.

I think I will try and treat noticeable deficiencies with foliar sprays until I am able to flush these plants in a couple days to get the runoff down to about 300ppm from 1000. I think I’m having nute deficincies because of an uptake problem due to oversaturarion of nutes and salt buildup

I’m seeing visible cal/mag deficincies chlorosis and early stage N deficincies

Wow, it is just too much to discuss here... Anyway, I think you should simplify your method, you are confusing terms and environmental parameters, deficiencies, etc. Remember: KISS. What can I say, I wish you good luck, man.

 

[GoatCheese]

I now have my intake directed straight at my LEDs this is controlling temperature much more effectively I’m running a 6” ac infinity t6 fan with a carbon filter for intake running at half speed. Temps stable at 78 humidity much higher with no portable ac.

Exhaust is an 8” inline with carbon filter with multiple turns and a ducting reducer from 8 to 6 and exhausts out a window. I run this on speed 3 all the time.

I think I will try and treat noticeable deficiencies with foliar sprays until I am able to flush these plants in a couple days to get the runoff down to about 300ppm from 1000. I think I’m having nute deficincies because of an uptake problem due to oversaturarion of nutes and salt buildup

I’m seeing visible cal/mag deficincies chlorosis and early stage N deficincies

The hanging height of your leds seem ok. For my soil-plants i have my cobs around 60-70cm above canopy, coco-plants are abit closer to the lights. It all depends on the enviro factors in your room/tent but the plants will tell you pretty fast if the leds are too much for them.

::

I don’t think that the plant in the photo you have on this thread needs a flush, it’s just dehydrated – when led-power is too much for plants they start to go pale/yellow but it isn’t a nutrient uptake issue, it’s because of the dehydration.

Flushing unnecessarily can lead to root zone problems (overwatering) so you do it only when you really have to.

You can give them plain pH adjusted water every now and then to get the nute levels to go down, you don’t always have to flush stuff out. Usually i give my plants just plain water every 3rd watering. My bottle nutes are organic, btw, so i don’t have to worry about salt build up.


There maybe nute burn spots on the leaves when plant tissue dries out too much, but it’s because the moisture level in the leaf gets too low, so the EC inside the tissue goes up and may get burned. Without the leaf dehydrating the burn spots wouldn’t happened.


Also, go easy with foliar feeding – calmag and epsoms are ok but go easy with NPK nutrients if you’re spraying those, cause if there isn’t an actual lock out in the root zone you may end up over feeding your plants.


I’d say, take few days to see first how the plants respond to your set up changes before you do anything else, cause when you change too many things up at once, you may not see what is causing what issues.

 

[Ca++]

I agree with you I am overdoing it with everything

I should use just ocean forest with my added perlite and rocks at the bottom; small amount of earthworm castings mychorrizhae small amount of compost mixed in. That’s my best idea.

My problem from the beginning has been soil/nutes too hot.

That looks like a repeat performance to me.

People are reporting ocean forest is too hot. Others are showing you pics of it working out the bag, for weeks on end. What are you trying to do to it? What do you Reason it needs.


I'm going to suggest you don't even add the perlite. Under no circumstances should you add a competing microhead. You have tracked down good proven soil, prepared by professionals. Proven by many. Why would you reformulate it randomly. Rabbits and cows eat the same grass, but they don't shit the same. Just leave it alone. It works. Only if it proves it doesn't should you start work on it. Which at this size, is potting up.

Keep everything simple. When it works, turn up the flame slowly. Mixing soils is very professional, and a hobby of it's own. You may be a professional soil grower for years, and still never mix any. The usual goal is finding the supplier that gets it right for you. Which means running what they give you, to judge it.

Only through running what's supplied, can you see if your crop needs something different. You can't fix something that isn't broken.

In all likeliness, you can pot up through veg with any decent soil/compost. Then pot size becomes limiting, and the need for a bloom profile comes around. So in bloom most soil growers will be feeding.
On your first run, you wait to see the need for feed. Only then can you anticipate it next run. This is why logs are kept. In turn, the door to crop steering with nutrients is opened. Timely loading of P and perhaps Ca are the big ones.
Forget the handful of this n that. Just get pen and paper out, or do a diary with pics.

Each day you need to record the light hours and brightness. Generally you can just write them in the day you change them. Also record if you watered, when, how much. Any unusual weather deviations. Pot sizes as they change. General perception of size/health/speed. Noting any changes at all. Runoff figures. Later you will record feeding if you need to.
You will develop shorthand and what order you list results over time. The most important detail... Left margin stuff... The day. It doesn't matter how many lines of text a days records take up. Just start the day with it's date. Then record everything. Often it's days after recording some signs, that they become identifiable. It's much later still, that you can start underlining those early observations and start planning for them.

I have digressed into the topic of dialing in. From seeing what you have, to tuning it for your environment and plants. This is the way

 

[Rtaym22224]

I am keeping a highly detailed daily journal logging absolutely everything i do and environmental conditions everything
I also take photos of the plants Timestamped and dated every two days: I measure them regularly

I have overcomplicated things and need to remember to keep it simple. Totally spot on about me trying to mix my own soil I also believe I don’t need to add anything to fox farm ocean forest soil. I’ll stick with just RO water for my waterings all the way through veg I like this idea.

I am seeing symptoms of deficiencies on other plants , mainly in large fan leaves

These 3 are all Getting the exact same care and all look very different

Should any of these fan leaves be removed?

The last three photos are of my oldest plant was badly stunted for almost two months from oferfeeding. It’s indica dominant and I topped it too many times removed lower branches. I recently tied down some branches but they aren’t really long enough to do that with yet. This plant is way too bushy and very compacted and dense at the top.

Maybe I just need to give it time? Should I thin out the top with pruning shears or just let it grow?

 

[HempKat]

 

[GoatCheese]

You can remove the leaves that are very yellow, they won’t go green again- they will only use energy and shade the growth right under them.

Plants react differently to led-stress, windy environment, over/under watering etc. like i wrote in my earlier post.. Some Skunk genetics can be very sensitive about the environment

 

[HempKat]

I now have my intake directed straight at my LEDs this is controlling temperature much more effectively I’m running a 6” ac infinity t6 fan with a carbon filter for intake running at half speed. Temps stable at 78 humidity much higher with no portable ac.

Exhaust is an 8” inline with carbon filter with multiple turns and a ducting reducer from 8 to 6 and exhausts out a window. I run this on speed 3 all the time.

I think I will try and treat noticeable deficiencies with foliar sprays until I am able to flush these plants in a couple days to get the runoff down to about 300ppm from 1000. I think I’m having nute deficincies because of an uptake problem due to oversaturarion of nutes and salt buildup

I’m seeing visible cal/mag deficincies chlorosis and early stage N deficincies

Since foliar is just a fancy way of saying misting I wouldn't advise this, if your ph is okay your plant should still be getting nutes even if there's an oversaturation of nutes in the soil. Salt buildup doesn't cause nute lock out, ph imbalances do and that in turn causes the salt build up. So if you think you plant's roots are seeing an over saturation of nutes you should just be feeding your plant plain water until the build up works it's way out of the soil. If you know what I'm about to say then forgive me, I don't mean to insult your intelligence I just have no way of knowing your level of knowledge and the suggestion to foliar feed right now would be a newbie mistake. People new to growing often get this idea in their head that if you want big amazing plants you need to force a whole lot of nutrients and everything else you can think of to make the plant grow. That's not how it works, you can't force a plant to grow, you just give it the most ideal environment you can and let it do it's thing. When you're in veg and working with a preload organic mix like Fox Farms you really shouldn't have to give it much of anything but light and water for the first 4-6 weeks.

 

[Ca++]

Salt buildup can cause a lockout @HempKat
Excess salts with nothing to do, will start bonding together. Forming unavailable salts.


I'm unsure why we can't see the roots. I would be dragging them out and putting the rootballs in buckets of water to massage away anything I could. Believe me when I say I have power-showed my rootballs clean. I see no point carrying on with these as they are. Remove what you dare, and repot. Lowering demands with reasonable lighting, and turn off that damn co2. They can't keep up with that.

 

[HempKat]

Salt buildup can cause a lockout @HempKat
Excess salts with nothing to do, will start bonding together. Forming unavailable salts.


I'm unsure why we can't see the roots. I would be dragging them out and putting the rootballs in buckets of water to massage away anything I could. Believe me when I say I have power-showed my rootballs clean. I see no point carrying on with these as they are. Remove what you dare, and repot. Lowering demands with reasonable lighting, and turn off that damn co2. They can't keep up with that.

I'll take your word for it on the salt build up but as I see it if it gets that bad you've been over feeding things for a while. When I see deficiencies due to nutrient lock out it's usually because the ph is off and it can be quickly resolved with just plain water at the proper ph. I usually check my ph at every feeding/watering and I usually give just plain water during at least one feeding per week so nutrient lock out for any reason doesn't happen to me very often. As for rootballs I only ever deal with that when it's time to up pot because the plant has started to get root bound. When that happens I don't bother to wash anything away, I just pull out the rootball, score it on four sides to help the roots spread out faster in the new pot and plant it into a bigger pot with more soil. Has worked out well for me. I agree on the CO2 but I try to not mention it as people are going to do what they feel they need to do. In my view CO2 supplementation is more for when you're running a pretty good size grow space with a fair number of plants (more then an average personal grow) and there is more of a need to maximize things. If you're just growing a few plants in a tent or small grow room it's really not needed or worth it in my opinion. You can still grow some very impressive plants without CO2 supplementation and if you don't add it then that's one less variable/expense to worry about.

 

[GoatCheese]

Salt buildup can cause a lockout @HempKat
Excess salts with nothing to do, will start bonding together. Forming unavailable salts.


I'm unsure why we can't see the roots. I would be dragging them out and putting the rootballs in buckets of water to massage away anything I could. Believe me when I say I have power-showed my rootballs clean. I see no point carrying on with these as they are. Remove what you dare, and repot. Lowering demands with reasonable lighting, and turn off that damn co2. They can't keep up with that.

What is he supposed to rinse away from the roots?

You guys talk about salt build up but he’s using organic stuff, and salt build up is an issue with mineral nutes.

 

[HempKat]

What is he supposed to rinse away from the roots?

You guys talk about salt build up but he’s using organic stuff, and salt build up is an issue with mineral nutes.

Well in fairness he's the one that said "I think I’m having nute deficincies because of an uptake problem due to oversaturarion of nutes and salt buildup" I don't think that's the problem here though and pretty much all the suggestions you've been making are solid ones he should take to heart.

 

[troutman]

Not using my exhaust fan at the moment.

Part of the problem right there.

 

[Ca++]

I'll take your word for it on the salt build up but as I see it if it gets that bad you've been over feeding things for a while. When I see deficiencies due to nutrient lock out it's usually because the ph is off and it can be quickly resolved with just plain water at the proper ph. I usually check my ph at every feeding/watering and I usually give just plain water during at least one feeding per week so nutrient lock out for any reason doesn't happen to me very often. As for rootballs I only ever deal with that when it's time to up pot because the plant has started to get root bound. When that happens I don't bother to wash anything away, I just pull out the rootball, score it on four sides to help the roots spread out faster in the new pot and plant it into a bigger pot with more soil. Has worked out well for me. I agree on the CO2 but I try to not mention it as people are going to do what they feel they need to do. In my view CO2 supplementation is more for when you're running a pretty good size grow space with a fair number of plants (more then an average personal grow) and there is more of a need to maximize things. If you're just growing a few plants in a tent or small grow room it's really not needed or worth it in my opinion. You can still grow some very impressive plants without CO2 supplementation and if you don't add it then that's one less variable/expense to worry about.

Oh I don't suggest we all start washing off depleted soil. Potting up is the way. I suggest it here, as it looks toxic. The list of stuff being added is lengthy. The guys answer to everything, is more. If we look at post #22 we see his distilled water is 225ppm, or he really did put 4 different things in his foliar spray. One of which is fox farms product to reduce lockouts by cleaning out salts from the medium. A regular part of the feeding scheme, that's not for foliar application. Not for use combined with calmag either I'm guessing. I get the general impression he has bought the entire shop, and should take it all back.

The only way forward that I see, is starting again. You could just pot up, and certainly showering the lot off is extreme. I would get the rootball in a bucket though, and see what will tease away easily. Without destroying the root system and needing expert tlc to recover.

In the last thread he did, the little bit of feed, was numerated as ec28


If cuttings are available, then I wouldn't even go on with this grow. The cutting will catch up, if left alone. The RH is good. Temperature is good. Lighting is now reasonable I'm told. The meters presumably work. What's left.
The only fix I would try, is 100ppm of calcium. My reasons are beyond the scope of this thread though. Here we should be starting with 101.


Barely on topic, there is an odd mutation there. Clubbed leafs at the growing tips. This does follow them rosetting signs, and is a form of stunting that might be in the smaller metals. It looks like progression. As if something run out, or built up, over time. Smaller metals rarely run out, so lock out is more likely. Looking at the K heavy grow feed being used, I have my suspicions. Though I'm not going to chase them up. It's not worth saving. The roots have probably gone anyway.