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Phylos Galaxy - Landrace discussion
- Thread starter Thule
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Aloha ngakpa,
In regards to typology and typological thinking.
Where you referring a more general definition of a doctrinal and ideological approach to taxonomy? Or a more specific typology vs population theories in evolutionary biology?
Thanks,
I definently agree on the old adage “the map is not the territory”
In regards to typology and typological thinking.
Where you referring a more general definition of a doctrinal and ideological approach to taxonomy? Or a more specific typology vs population theories in evolutionary biology?
Thanks,
I definently agree on the old adage “the map is not the territory”
frostqueen
Active member
So what I'm trying to show people is that regions or clusters of samples are forming that correspond to geographical regions.
So if you have a legit Thai-stick and you were to submit it it would fall in the region I circled Asia/Thai.
Also say you have a top Sativa you are unsure of it's origins you submit it to phylos and in fell in the cluster I marked Africa. You have an African Sativa my friend.
So simple it's hard to comprehend I know
First, I am a big supporter of Phylos and their project, so full disclosure there. I have over 20 samples submitted. My comments are mainly regarding the data presentation method, not the veracity of the data on familial connections.
The images you posted just show a bunch of green dots with no identification, and circled in red. How is that 'simple'? That is actually 'simply inadequate', or 'simplistic', in terms of data presentation. It's what we sometimes refer to as a 'data clusterfuck'.
And this is my gripe with the galaxy in general. There's no way of seeing just the data you are interested in seeing and dimming out the rest. If I want to see the Thai family, why can't I just see that family? What's the point of making researchers navigate through a bowl of skittles just to see what they are specifically interested in? I want to click on a single sample and just see all connected samples, and nothing else.
The other huge problem is that the data points are so close together that often you can't even read their info or select them. There should be a way to 'spread out and orbit' just the cluster you are researching.
I've contacted them a few times now over this, and it just keeps getting worse. Not sure why such simple but massively useful changes are so complicated. But as it stands now, I'm not submitting any more samples until the data can be presented in a useful fashion.
W
Water-
The same issue with the confusion from plotting of dots on a graph (galaxy) exists in Human genetic research as well.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/112MSAwnW2rPPrdExTXIYLKyyv3Y0-Em8/view
check out this link and you will see that Phylos is comparably pretty good and making the plotted dot data readable.
It will be great when the sample size and science advances enough to make the data into trees that are much more understandable
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/01/the-kho-people-archaic-indo-aryans.html
https://drive.google.com/file/d/112MSAwnW2rPPrdExTXIYLKyyv3Y0-Em8/view
check out this link and you will see that Phylos is comparably pretty good and making the plotted dot data readable.
It will be great when the sample size and science advances enough to make the data into trees that are much more understandable
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/01/the-kho-people-archaic-indo-aryans.html
G `day N7
I`m having trouble understanding what your saying here ?
the select NLD/tropical Sativa cultivar and not the whole
region of Kerala where anyone is free to grow whatever they wish.
WTF ?? there is a brand Kerala ? That one strain grown in Kerala state is Kerala but others are not ?
That`s like Ngapka was saying re Thai . So if its not Thai stick its not Thai ? If it`s not Sam`s Kerala its not Kerala ?
Thanks for sharin
EB .
I`m having trouble understanding what your saying here ?
the select NLD/tropical Sativa cultivar and not the whole
region of Kerala where anyone is free to grow whatever they wish.
WTF ?? there is a brand Kerala ? That one strain grown in Kerala state is Kerala but others are not ?
That`s like Ngapka was saying re Thai . So if its not Thai stick its not Thai ? If it`s not Sam`s Kerala its not Kerala ?
Thanks for sharin
EB .
Nexus7
Well-known member
Thanks for putting your hand up and offering your Kerala sample for testing but unfortunately I can't offer to pay for the whole testing.
My intial offer was to wager the cost of a pack of seeds. So if I was off in my prediction you would get the money but not need to send seeds and if my prediction was right you would send me a free pack. You would have to pay for the testing since it's your collection and you would get the valueable raw DNA data that allows for future market assisted selection and a better understanding of that indivuduals variation and also where it fits in to the galaxy.
I can offer to wager the whole cost of testing but you would have to give me a bit more leeway in regards to where your sample turns up in the galaxy. And if I were right you would have to reimburse me the whole cost of testing.
I can understand if you don't feel that's a fair bet or if you don't want to pay to get your samples tested. But that's the best I can offer unfortunately.
Nexus7
Well-known member
Yes EB to us Westerners "Kerala" is a recognizeable strain. It's characterised by light green color, long thin leaves, long flowering time, sparse airy buds, flexible side branches, minty aroma and euphoric high.
No they don't all have to derived from Sam or ngakpa's collection but they should share some phenotypic characteristics with theirs and more importantly a common ancestral DNA for being isolated together for a reasonable period of time.
There may of course be more than one type going around Kerala currently and what was collected in the 2000 may have a new admixture from what was collected in the 70's or 80's.
Sure there could be more than one "type" of Kerala in the field but there is just one type most growers are interest in.
W
Water-
Nexus
You have no idea what you are talking about.
You sound like your very young and inexperienced.
Take a trip to India and then come back and argue your case.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
You sound like your very young and inexperienced.
Take a trip to India and then come back and argue your case.
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Hi,
In fairness, 'drug' cannabis landraces are often named after their specific region. In the case of Kerala, the name used is Idukki, which is a district in the highland where the land is well-suited for ganja cultivation. There are recognisable characteristics of the race. But you only have to look at old photos to get an idea of the phenotypic variation, and what that implies in terms of genetic diversity.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BigbeipFqMS/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1bxpqup62to5p
In fairness, 'drug' cannabis landraces are often named after their specific region. In the case of Kerala, the name used is Idukki, which is a district in the highland where the land is well-suited for ganja cultivation. There are recognisable characteristics of the race. But you only have to look at old photos to get an idea of the phenotypic variation, and what that implies in terms of genetic diversity.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BigbeipFqMS/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1bxpqup62to5p
I'm not sure I understand the question. I'm no expert. I'm just saying taxonomy should be empirical.
It's clear cannabis is one species.
There's a basic question that needs to be asked:
What evidence is this idea that Hindu Kush landraces constitute a separate variety, in the strict botanical sense, based on?
Where are the landrace accessions? Who's done the necessary fieldwork? What sample sizes do we have?
The Hillig studies have what - two or three landraces from Pakistan plus a couple of Afghan derived lines from SSSC, Amsterdam? Something like that.
Anyone who's grown first-generation Afghan or Pakistani genetics can tell you that the idea broad-leaflets are a consistent feature isn't supported. As for the pre-Soviet myth: look at Mel Frank's shots of Afghan No. 1 in 1979. Narrow leaflets a plenty. Vavilov describes the feral 'f. afghanica' in Kunar as having narrow obovate leaflets. Etc.
By typological thinking I just mean the basic human tendency to impose categories and patterns excessively. Stereotypical thinking.
The posited taxon is based on a misconception anyway. Fact is, broad leaflets are a feature that manifests during the process of domestication.
CannaZen
Well-known member
The structure exists from the ground up, The backbone of modern varietals through 'landrace' and hemp varietals as backdrop may provide valuable contrast to the evolution of cannabis. Hemp shares plethora growth characteristic relation of marijuana.
I've watched a plant re vegetate from flower and as skinny leaflet clones go from Cannabis sativa through to an cannabis indica bush, and back again. I find the phylos galaxy as a whole lacking in some way seriously what it may accomplish beyond building credible verification as third party via multiple accounts of the same region for said varietal? They need a higher density of linked ancestry descent for useful information from the galaxy.
Assuming leaflets are characteristic of their roots, by cultivating the roots in the soil i am encouraging may become BLD from the bottom up from skinny sativa (cannabis sativa var. indica) plants cultivating domestication of root systems evolving to cultivation. I'm also interested in acclimatization without cultivation..
would they subsist as smaller plants or die from drought?
Was Cannabis Indica once a separate woodland subspecies or is it a cultivar?
I've watched a plant re vegetate from flower and as skinny leaflet clones go from Cannabis sativa through to an cannabis indica bush, and back again. I find the phylos galaxy as a whole lacking in some way seriously what it may accomplish beyond building credible verification as third party via multiple accounts of the same region for said varietal? They need a higher density of linked ancestry descent for useful information from the galaxy.
Assuming leaflets are characteristic of their roots, by cultivating the roots in the soil i am encouraging may become BLD from the bottom up from skinny sativa (cannabis sativa var. indica) plants cultivating domestication of root systems evolving to cultivation. I'm also interested in acclimatization without cultivation..
would they subsist as smaller plants or die from drought?
Was Cannabis Indica once a separate woodland subspecies or is it a cultivar?
frostqueen
Active member
I think the best approach is to change the terminology and scale a bit to match the real universe: each individual sample/plant should be represented as a 'star', multiple matching samples would be a 'star cluster', then each familial group should be represented as a 'galaxy', and the entire project should be the 'universe'.
Anything to space that data out. I still say the easiest fix is to make non-relevant data toggle off while viewing.
I am curious about the taxonomy origins of many strains over the decades but I have recently even questioned the term landrace, or race. We are all people after all. Is it fair to say a person is (insert country here) I don't know how accurate that is. From your diagrams you might have some genetic testing done and good work grouping strains together but the naming or nomenclature is all over the place it doesn't make any sense. Title is landrace discussion, picture shows all designer names clustered together. Maybe I'm just confused about the way it's displayed and you're saying that grape ape etc is related to a certain original landrace, that would make sense. Once you go down that path of trying to split it into 500 different subcategories, you're going to find in the end it's just one plant. Sure your genetic tests will continue I imagine, just remember the plant has been here for thousands of years not just a few and you don't need any of that stuff to recognize and breed good canna.
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W
Water-
but we have no idea how big the "real universe" is so that is not possible.
I think it is up to us to understand genetic graphing with points.
If we can not wrap our minds around it than must let it be.
Because that is how it is done.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/
Nexus7
Well-known member
Well I think White Widow was originally listed as a North Indian Indica x Brazilian Sativa but will check my notes again. Kerala is in Southern India I believe.
I had a quick look at the White Widows earlier ...No obvious parents yet ...
Maybe there is some merit to the seed in the hash story?
Thanks for trying
troutman
Seed Whore
Check seed finder next time it's faster.
Green House Seeds - White Widow
Genetics: Brazilian and South Indian.
