Phylos Galaxy - Landrace discussion

[Nexus7]

The most obvious is their using modern cultivars as reference groups. When a 1920's Colombian shows "berry" ancestry you can obviously discard that as noise. It can also give the impression that a 1979 Oaxacan is derived from skunk when opposite is more likely to be true.

Let's take Skunk#1 as an example. This plant is from the Skunkman himself, we know what it's ancestry proportions should look like. 100% skunk, right?

It still looks like a 85% match and the rest can be interpreted as being the margin of error we have to deal with at this point. When we're looking at landraces that can be interpreted as little more than "noise" but in the question of Skunk we can assume that it does actually contain ancestry similar to hemp, og kush, cbd.. those markers just arent present in their skunk sample and their method interprets the results like this.



So there are things Phylos can and can't do very well. What I think it does do pretty well is show the contamination of landraces by modern hybrids because the Skunk and Ogkush have a very specific combination of markers that clusters them away from the larger landrace branch in the three dimensional Phylos galaxy. It also works very well in showing the proportions of the landrace (NLD) and hemp (very widespread) specific ancestry.

Have you perhaps considered:

A small part of 1920 Colombian genes made it's way into berry strains?

1979 Oaxacan is a Mexican pheno of old school Skunk? Or a skunk x Mex hybrid? (I think I remember Dubi doing an S1 with some 9 week phenos!) It actually relates to the Afghan/skunk and not skunk#1 right?

Skunk#1 only 85% matches "skunk" because some Skunk#1 genes made it's way in OG-Kush and it had a little hemp/cbd ancestry too?

 

[Thule]

Have you perhaps considered:

A small part of 1920 Colombian genes made it's way into berry strains?

1979 Oaxacan is a Mexican pheno of old school Skunk? Or a skunk x Mex hybrid? (I think I remember Dubi doing an S1 with some 9 week phenos!) It actually relates to the Afghan/skunk and not skunk#1 right?

Skunk#1 only 85% matches "skunk" because some Skunk#1 genes made it's way in OG-Kush and it had a little hemp/cbd ancestry too?

Yes, exactly what I tried to express. The smallest ancestry proportions are still most likely due to noise which is to be expected. The same way a European person after doing genetic testing finds out he's 5% Oceanian Just noise.

 

[Thule]

To get back to that 1920's Colombian..


I was too quick to call that little "berry" related ancestry just noise. I remembered that lots of African strains on Phylos also show this component so it might represent something real. many South American samples cluster towards African on Phylos.


I might even have found a mediator.



Angola


Identical proportions of landrace and berry to the old Colombian. Also shared by the closely related Ghana, Paraguay and Nicaragua and other African and Latin American strains. This might be due to later imports from Africa but all these strains give similar ancestry results which means Phylos does give consistent results when you look at enough strains. Indian strains on the other hand can show OGkush in addition to the berry component.. so theyre actually distinguishable from the ancestry charts.


Kerala

 

[Elmer Bud]

To get back to that 1920's Colombian..


I was too quick to call that little "berry" related ancestry just noise. I remembered that lots of African strains on Phylos also show this component so it might represent something real. many South American samples cluster towards African on Phylos.


I might even have found a mediator.



Angola


Identical proportions of landrace and berry to the old Colombian. Also shared by the closely related Ghana, Paraguay and Nicaragua and other African and Latin American strains. This might be due to later imports from Africa but all these strains give similar ancestry results which means Phylos does give consistent results when you look at enough strains. Indian strains on the other hand can show OGkush in addition to the berry component.. so theyre actually distinguishable from the ancestry charts.


Kerala

G `day Thule

Don`t forget the Portuguese .
They had colonies in Mozambique ,Angola ,Namibia , Goa , Sri Lanka . And Brazil ...

Lots of their ships travelling between East / Sth America and West Africa .

I don`t know how far it goes back . But from my research there is a Pakistani syndicate who move a lot of hash and heroin through Mozambique .

Said this before . I`ll say it again .late 19th and early 20th century ,British India stretched from the borders with Iran in the west to the Thai border in the east . Including Afghanistan , Pakistan , India , Bangladesh and Burma .

That`s one mighty big country !

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[Thcvhunter]

Indeed, their results are manafactured, just like labs resulting obsurd THC levels or resulting moldy cannabis as clean.

Its a business.
Why would anayone trust a business?
Once MMJ started to gain traction in the mid-2000’s, labs starting popping up and then the contracts started soon after.
Notice how the THC% of the same cut increases over the years.

Phylos has also been caught editing their results to fit their story.
I know people who have screenshots of old results with more legitimate relationships, then they ‘update their software’ and those old reltaionships are no more and now strains are randomly related to lines they are definitely not related too.

If anyone has trouble understanding that Phylos has a motive...just look at how they classify the different lines. Berry, Skunk, Haze,....smells like Skunkman is near.
And remember how hard Skunkman was selling Phylos when Phylos started?

Imagine if every breeder aubmitted their genetics to Phylos to be tested and those test results relate these strains to Skunkman’s lines.
Whelp, pretty soon everyone will be in breach of Intellectual Property.

Its a seedy business

Phylos has limitations on multiple levels, such as the doubtful authenticity of the material used, obviously dodgy results, and the fact that it's aimed at laymen despite the fact they/we are the last ones in a position to understand the inherent limitations of the results or how to interpret them

case in point is how people are now proclaiming that Old Timer's Haze is definitely a pure Colombian, or that Nepali and Thai cannabis are definitely closely related

if you showed this to a qualified plant geneticist or botanist do you think they'd be nodding along in agreement?

or look at some of the obviously absurd results:

take the Yarkhun and Laspur seeds that Mriko collected and gave to Sam. I was in Pakistan with him and met him on his way back from Chitral. I even know where the farmer he got some of the seeds from lives. So I can have good confidence that they are what Mriko says they are.

Yarkhun and Laspur are connected valleys. The Yarkhun is from Tehsil Mastuj. The Laspur were from mere kms distant. Look on Google Maps. Far as local farmers are concerned, they're the same plant.

Yet if you look at Phylos, apparently Senegali cannabis is more closely related to one (Yarkhun iirc) than Yarkhun and Laspur are to each other. There was a user on here defending this result on the grounds that Phylos must be right lol

So yeah, I'm not taking Phylos too seriously, and still less how it's being interpreted by non-specialists

 

[Nexus7]

There is also Kannapedia which provides a similar service.

The presentation of the results is a bit more scientific in nature with no arbitrary skunk, og, landrace, hemp, berry and cbd categories. It also has a better explanation of what those results mean for those who have trouble comprehending such things.

N7

 

[ngakpa]

The discussion since my last post pretty well illustrates what I'm saying about how Phylos is a mess on all levels, doesn't it?

I'm no geneticist but I suspect that one of the key issues is how gene expression and inheritance in cannabis work and how this then affects apparent heredity and genealogy...

To anyone seriously entertaining the idea that Senegali ganja landraces originate in Yarkhun, a remote valley in the Chitral region of the Hindu Kush, bordering the Wakhan region of Afghanistan, after which is Xinjiang, NW China:

Stop for a moment to consider the key reason why the traditional landrace strains of Asia are so diverse... why there are so many different strains...

The main reason is that seeds seldom move from one region to another... farmers almost invariably just utilise the local landrace (caveats to that apply in Af-Pak and around Thailand)

That's largely been the case for the Hindu Kush region, hence it's very specific features... in the Asian charas trade, past and present, seeds of resin cultigens weren't part of the traded product, which was and is above all just resin

Clearly the other half of the story of strain diversity is regional adaptation. But there's little indication that seeds of Hindu Kush cultigens even found their way south into Kashmir or subtropical Pakistan, and certainly not east of Kashmir in the Himalaya.... never mind fricking West Africa...

Seeds of ganja cultigens on the other hand have moved around, spreading from India and neighbouring areas of SE Asia across the globe to Africa, the Caribbean, and S. America --- and the main way seems to be as traded ganja itself, not as seeds per se

Anyway: Point being, beyond the mess, it seems pretty glaringly obvious there are major issues with interpretation of Phylos

more than anything it's an illustration of the same psychological pitfalls affecting popular and 'expert' understanding of cannabis taxonomy - ie, stereotypical thinking

 

[Water-]

The main reason for diversity in Central Asia is because that is where the plant speciated.
A species is most genetically diverse where it first speciated and less so as it moves away from that source to adapt to new environmnets where it often experiences bottleneck events that reduce genetic diversity.



If you could provide a link to where you attain your information regarding historical Cannabis seed trade I would be very interested in reading any documentation that you have access to regarding the trade during the Britsh Emipre in India, mostly as to where they were traded and where they came from and what time frame?


With the array and reach of the different Empires that have dominated the area at diffrent times during the last 3000 years, I would imagine that we may never know where the orginal origin is of the cannabis that we have seen in modern times in the Yarkun valley or the Mazar area.

 

[GoatCheese]

To anyone seriously entertaining the idea that Senegali ganja landraces originate in Yarkhun, a remote valley in the Chitral region of the Hindu Kush, bordering the Wakhan region of Afghanistan, after which is Xinjiang, NW China:

Stop for a moment to consider the key reason why the traditional landrace strains of Asia are so diverse... why there are so many different strains...

I wasn't "seriously entertaining the idea" that all Senegalese cannabis came from Yarkhun as you imply here, and i already sarcastically replied to you earlier about this, remember. But you just wanted to keep up with it, no problem.

I suggested the particular sample/population of Senegalese came from Pakistan originally..
..and added "perhaps even from Yarkhun area". If this to you seems like a serious claim, then you're an immature idiot. But as they say, be careful what you say around children cause they might take any half-hearted suggestion or a joke as a claim of a fact. ...again, grow up, ngakpa.


You seem to get abit pissy and uppity every time someone isn't taking your views and claims as the truth. This isn't the first time. Collecting cannabis seeds isn't the most important thing in this world, do you understand that, even thou it might allow you to feel abit important on canna-forums. Quite petty.


anyway..


The Senegalese sample sent by Sam S to Phylos seem to be fairly closely related to other Pakistani samples also; some Mexican samples are also close to them as is some Durban Poison.

To me, Afropips Durban Poison looks fairly similar to ACE/Cannabiogen's Chitrali
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=307700&highlight=Afropips+Durban+Poison
...and no, ngakpa, by this i don't imply all cannabis in South Africa/Durban originated from Afropips. What i mean that some Paki/indian cannabis seem to have travelled to Africa.

Some S African/Durban seems closely related to Thai and/or Keralan according to Phylos, so it's quite possible there are different populations from different parts of the world being grown in Senegal too. Is this possible, i'm wondering about this as an "non-expert" of course.


As a conclusion, what i have gathered from Phylos is that most sativa-samples from Africa seem to originally come from somewhere else; SE Asia or India/Paki/Nepal (= sativas aren't indigenous to sub Saharan Africa)
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Plant matter or seeds sent to Sam Skunkman/Cannabis Collage in Amsterdam, they do not ship these over to Phylos in USA. They use a Dutch university to process the samples, extract the dna, which is then sent to Phylos.
..so if the Yarkhun result isn't what you'd assume it would be, it's wrong for you to blame Phylos for it cause the sample was extracted in Europe.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6999601&postcount=54

There is no DNA library being amassed all that is being amassed is the info from the DNA and that is being publicly shared, read the project FAQ. Your fears are for nothing. I have not sent one live seed to Phylos, I can't legally so I was sending dead seeds, now I can have live seeds DNA extracted here in the Netherlands and just post the legal extracted DNA to Phylos for sequencing. That does not allow Phylos to make a copy of the DNA that can be grown, do you understand that? All they get is the DNA to sequence the info in it. Phylos will not grow the seeds, they can['t.]
-SamS

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Anyone suggesting/implying that dna samples at Phylos aren't trust worthy at all, then explain to me why many UK Cheese-strains show relation to each other, thou these were sent from different parts of the world; the so called "dutch hazes "/hazes show relation to each other regardless if the samples came from Europe or USA; CBD-rich genetics originating from CBD Crew's seed line show strong relation to each other, so it's ridiculous to imply Phylos can't do anything right.
..sure, some mistakes are possible, but clearly some samples seem to be right on.


PS.
Hope you're not too upset cause i'm giving you lil shit. You're just abit of a muppet sometimes, ngakpa. If you wanna be pissy towards people pretty much for no reason, then expect some to treat you the same way, right.
No worries. Peace.

 

[Dr.Young]

Just type cbd.... and that alone should let you know..... Nothing is really determinable from looking at the galaxy right now.

 

[Morcheeba*]

...Imagine if every breeder aubmitted their genetics to Phylos to be tested and those test results relate these strains to Skunkman’s lines.
Whelp, pretty soon everyone will be in breach of Intellectual Property.

Its a seedy business

a little thing called public disclosure will make that move very difficult imo.




peace

 

[bigtacofarmer]

https://phylos.bio/sims/variety/PGT-147534/nature-farm-genetics/uncle-fester-skunk18

http://www.kannapedia.net/strains/rsp11030/

So does a skunk supposedly older than the rest with no close genetic relatives actually mean anything? I have seen equal parts hate and proof against these guys. Grabbed 3 different packs with high hopes. Years ago I saw reefermans ads in high times and thought too good to be true. Then he won some awards. I bought some seeds. So did alot of people. I found some amazing herb. So did others. His prices went up. Availability went down. Now about 15 years later lots of people are still working with descendants and probably a few cuts from back then.

 

[Thule]

https://phylos.bio/sims/variety/PGT-147534/nature-farm-genetics/uncle-fester-skunk18

https://www.kannapedia.net/strains/rsp11030/

So does a skunk supposedly older than the rest with no close genetic relatives actually mean anything? I have seen equal parts hate and proof against these guys. Grabbed 3 different packs with high hopes. Years ago I saw reefermans ads in high times and thought too good to be true. Then he won some awards. I bought some seeds. So did alot of people. I found some amazing herb. So did others. His prices went up. Availability went down. Now about 15 years later lots of people are still working with descendants and probably a few cuts from back then.

Supposedly. We can quite reliably say that some of the strains on Phylos actually are what they're claimed to be. This isn't one of them.


There's a lot of the berry component in this one compared to the Skunk from Skunkman. Actually more than any strain I've looked at previously which is interesting. I still have no idea what that component represents but it's not blueberry, bb shows way too little of the berry component. OG kush and Skunk#1 score close to 90% of their respective components and I can find similarly high matches of the CBD and hemp components but I have no idea what berry was modeled after on Phylos.

 

[bigtacofarmer]

Supposedly. We can quite reliably say that some of the strains on Phylos actually are what they're claimed to be. This isn't one of them.


There's a lot of the berry component in this one compared to the Skunk from Skunkman. Actually more than any strain I've looked at previously which is interesting. I still have no idea what that component represents but it's not blueberry, bb shows way too little of the berry component. OG kush and Skunk#1 score close to 90% of their respective components and I can find similarly high matches of the CBD and hemp components but I have no idea what berry was modeled after on Phylos.

A buddy of mine had a blueberry sativa herm on an og kush. He grew a few seeds and one was the stinkiest cheese pheno I have seen (never grown legit cheese). Was also a herm but I did get me thinking.

 

[Elmer Bud]

I'm no geneticist but I suspect that one of the key issues is how gene expression and inheritance in cannabis work and how this then affects apparent heredity and genealogy...

To anyone seriously entertaining the idea that Senegali ganja landraces originate in Yarkhun, a remote valley in the Chitral region of the Hindu Kush, bordering the Wakhan region of Afghanistan, after which is Xinjiang, NW China:

Stop for a moment to consider the key reason why the traditional landrace strains of Asia are so diverse... why there are so many different strains...

G `day ngakpa

De ja Vu ?
I think we had a similar conversation re Phylos / Thai weed / Nepali weed . And their relationship on Phylos .


Here`s an example of how empires and cultures rise and fall .

Satellite imaging has revealed that Angkor, during its peak in the 11th to 13th centuries, was the largest pre-industrial urban centre in the world.

Map of Southeast Asia 900 CE; Khmer Empire in red

Historical era Middle Ages
• Enthronement of Jayavarman II
802
• Siamese invasion
1431


Thanks for sharin

EB

 

[ngakpa]

The main reason for diversity in Central Asia is because that is where the plant speciated.
A species is most genetically diverse where it first speciated and less so as it moves away from that source to adapt to new environmnets where it often experiences bottleneck events that reduce genetic diversity.

well, back in Vavilov's day this was the assumption, but it's been known not to be the case for decades

eg. bananas originate around SE Asia but their centre of greatest biodiversity is West Africa

If you could provide a link to where you attain your information regarding historical Cannabis seed trade I would be very interested in reading any documentation that you have access to regarding the trade during the Britsh Emipre in India, mostly as to where they were traded and where they came from and what time frame?


With the array and reach of the different Empires that have dominated the area at diffrent times during the last 3000 years, I would imagine that we may never know where the orginal origin is of the cannabis that we have seen in modern times in the Yarkun valley or the Mazar area.

there wasn't a 'cannabis seed trade', that's my point

there's something akin to a seed trade in the Af-Pak region these days in that you can buy a variety of landraces in bazaars; plus seeds are produced and traded on the black market in and around Thailand for commercial grows, but that's it

in terms of documentation, there's a ton of material on the 19th and early 20th century cannabis economy of South Asia, eg the Indian Hemp Drugs Commission, which is immense, but far more than just that

 

[ngakpa]

@Elmer Bud

don't have time to respond in detail, but I seriously doubt any of that is relevant to any genetic connections there may be between Nepali and Thai cannabis, or to the history of domesticated cannabis in SE Asia

 

[Chimera]

Northwest Iran is the most fertile land in the entire Middle East and has some Amazing Genetics.. None of these Scientist know any information on these genetics..therefore these type of studies and theories are Speculation with a splash of Bro Science

^^^

 

[Thule]

well, back in Vavilov's day this was the assumption, but it's been known not to be the case for decades

eg. bananas originate around SE Asia but their centre of greatest biodiversity is West Africa




there wasn't a 'cannabis seed trade', that's my point

there's something akin to a seed trade in the Af-Pak region these days in that you can buy a variety of landraces in bazaars; plus seeds are produced and traded on the black market in and around Thailand for commercial grows, but that's it

in terms of documentation, there's a ton of material on the 19th and early 20th century cannabis economy of South Asia, eg the Indian Hemp Drugs Commission, which is immense, but far more than just that

Diversity can also be the result of admixture. In Central Asia such diversity could be the result of mixing of cannabis sativa and indica genepools.


As for the possible connection of Himalayan and SE Asian strains.. The earliest inhabitants of the Himalayan highlands were apparently of East Asian stock. We can also now track the migrations of early agriculturalists from China to SE Asia and we can be pretty sure that's where those cultivars originated. I haven't looked into the Himalayan issue lately but if the plant isn't native to the area it must have come from either Central or East Asia.



Indo aryans arrived relatively late from the Pontic Caspian steppe and almost certainly brought their seeds with them. I would expect both migrations to be reflected in the cultivars today but without genetic evidence it's still speculative.


The question remains: Does Phylos offer reliable genetic data? I haven't seen any solid arguments as to why it doesn't. The results look very consistent to me.

 

[Elmer Bud]

^^^

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=8413474#post8413474

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpVuL4ql_vb/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=103fsl5ais95u