Philips 315w CDM Elite (CMH)

[SleazyWolf]

Anybody want to make a suggestion on which kit to get? I'm looking at the sunsystems vs. phantom kit. Planning on sticking 2x315w in a 4x4 area.

I went with the Phantom kits. I have 2 in a 4x4 tent and 6 in a 8x8 tent, but soon to be 8 in a 8x8. I liked the price over the sunsystems because I got a great deal on the Phantoms. Plus I liked the option of adding air cooling to them. Thought I might need it running so many in a tent.

 

[The Wang]

I went with the Phantom kits. I have 2 in a 4x4 tent and 6 in a 8x8 tent, but soon to be 8 in a 8x8. I liked the price over the sunsystems because I got a great deal on the Phantoms. Plus I liked the option of adding air cooling to them. Thought I might need it running so many in a tent.

That's what I was leaning towards too. Is it pretty easy to maintain heat with two in a 4x4?

 

[SleazyWolf]

That's what I was leaning towards too. Is it pretty easy to maintain heat with two in a 4x4?

No issues. But I'm running them with the air cooling kit inline with all my other lights. They replaced an air cooled 1000w, but I never had heating issues with that one either. I'm running one Phantom in my larger tent right now without the glass or air cooling (just to test it) and have had it about 12" from the top of the plant for the last few weeks. No burning or heat issues. I feel like I could run the 2 in the 4x4 without the air cooling kit with ease.

 

[The Wang]

I'm only a little worried about air cooling because if temperatures drop on the bulbs too much, I'm afraid the spectrum will suffer.

Is this an unwarranted fear?

 

[SleazyWolf]

The air cooling goes around the outside of the reflector and not directly across the bulbs, so I'm not that worried about it. Similar to the Boss DE air cooled hood.

 

[frostqueen]

Thanks for your responses.

I was wondering if any of you know or have experience with both the agro 3100k bulbs and the more bulbous shaped 315 mogul based 4200k bulbs, I wanted to know which of these runs cooler.

It seems to me that the agro bulb might be cooler because of the inner envelope , and therefore could be put closer to my plants if they were hanging bare bulb in the middle of my canopy.. but of course I'm not sure. If its negligible difference between the two, then I'll just have to decide which spectrum will be more beneficial to my other lighting.

My new plan for my flower space is to actually utilize some of the pro 6/750 de gavita hps, about six, with 4 of the chameleon 500w lep units in sequence to cover the said area, then dropping 6 of the cmh bulbs to hang vertically in between the canopy, doing a vert and horizontal scrog type grow.. trees still but using tomato cages and some lines for the screen .. that would be 2000w plasma, 4500w de hps, and 1890w cmh... for a total of 8390w for a flower area that is around 8' x 16' maybe more like 7' x 15' or 14' when it all comes down to needing room to move around and tend to the plants..

Suggestions on which cmh spectrum and bulb would be best for this application... ? I would drop 6 of the 860w huge 4200k cmh in between the plants if anyone thinks what I have planned for the space if it wouldn't be overkill and diminishing returns, i'd love to have the extra watts and the extra uvb from those big bad boys..

Thank you in advance to everyone on these forums, I wouldn't know the slightest in moving forward if it wasn't for all the expert experience and advice I have received from this amazing community...

And thank you to the Northwest USA for making this all so legal..

Hi again, Key -

Just some last advice and I'll shut up. Take it or leave it and best of luck in your endeavor.

I'm not getting why you are putting twice as much wattage into a room as you actually need. To what end, exactly? Again: more is not better. The right amount of light is what you need. Anything over 60 watts per sq ft with conventional HPS lighting and maybe 45 watts psf with CMH is not helping you. It's just generating more heat and related problems. You're up at around 80 watts psf right now.

It sounds like you don't have any budget issues. If I were you I would seriously consider doing more research before opening your wallet or settling on a design as you've described. You are casting a strangely wide net equipment-wise. I question why you'd even bother with gavitas or plasma when CMH is the superior system when it comes to light spectrum, wattage and heat minimization. What is your goal there?

In your situation with your budget I'd personally be filling your room exclusively with Greenbeams. The 'bare bulb down between the tops' idea makes less sense with CMH; most people actually keep them up by the ceiling to avoid burning issues. Others here describe potential problems with leaf burning when closer that 2 feet or so.

For the money you seem able to spend I bet you could totally outfit a Greenbeams room end to end at 45 watts psf and still be able to afford a nice efficient 18K mini split to handle complete climate control... and still spend less than your current plan.

Some quick figuring for an 8 X 15 room has you with three rows of six either Greenbeams or Phantoms, with a 30" spread bulb to bulb. 18 lights, ~48 watts psf, total draw of about 6,000 watts. You could tighten that up for a bit more light like Timmur is doing, maybe three more fixtures for 21 total.

Greenbeams can be had for about $550 each ($9,900)

or Phantoms at about $350 each ($6,300).

See why I'm leaning towards Phantoms for my system?

 

[The Wang]

The air cooling goes around the outside of the reflector and not directly across the bulbs, so I'm not that worried about it. Similar to the Boss DE air cooled hood.

Oh wow, I didn't realize. That seals the deal for me then. Thank you.

 

[Jhhnn]

Oh wow, I didn't realize. That seals the deal for me then. Thank you.

It doesn't really matter w/ CDM because the lamp is vacuum sealed. It matters w/ the gas filled DE lamps. They use the gas to help carry heat from the emitter to the envelope.

 

[Key Ran]

Hi again, Key -

Just some last advice and I'll shut up. Take it or leave it and best of luck in your endeavor.

I'm not getting why you are putting twice as much wattage into a room as you actually need. To what end, exactly? Again: more is not better. The right amount of light is what you need. Anything over 60 watts per sq ft with conventional HPS lighting and maybe 45 watts psf with CMH is not helping you. It's just generating more heat and related problems. You're up at around 80 watts psf right now.

It sounds like you don't have any budget issues. If I were you I would seriously consider doing more research before opening your wallet or settling on a design as you've described. You are casting a strangely wide net equipment-wise. I question why you'd even bother with gavitas or plasma when CMH is the superior system when it comes to light spectrum, wattage and heat minimization. What is your goal there?

In your situation with your budget I'd personally be filling your room exclusively with Greenbeams. The 'bare bulb down between the tops' idea makes less sense with CMH; most people actually keep them up by the ceiling to avoid burning issues. Others here describe potential problems with leaf burning when closer that 2 feet or so.

For the money you seem able to spend I bet you could totally outfit a Greenbeams room end to end at 45 watts psf and still be able to afford a nice efficient 18K mini split to handle complete climate control... and still spend less than your current plan.

Some quick figuring for an 8 X 15 room has you with three rows of six either Greenbeams or Phantoms, with a 30" spread bulb to bulb. 18 lights, ~48 watts psf, total draw of about 6,000 watts. You could tighten that up for a bit more light like Timmur is doing, maybe three more fixtures for 21 total.

Greenbeams can be had for about $550 each ($9,900)

or Phantoms at about $350 each ($6,300).

See why I'm leaning towards Phantoms for my system?

Thanks for the advice.. well, the budget isn't unlimited, but I was considering mixing spectrums for best result, but after more research I am leaning towards your advice to make sure I don't overdue it. I will be at a legal plant count of 12 in flower, so that makes a difference about spread, also I am considering 8' ceilings, which has me thinking something like the phantom setup your suggesting, with big huge scrogged trees, or something like two vertical cage builds with some of the larger 860w cmh (like 4, two for each vertical silo) to maximize my growing space for two vertical circular scrog screens 5 feet in diameter. I have given up on the hps/plasma type idea and am solidly going to invest in one plasma light for my veg room, and stick with these cmh from phillips for my flowering spectrum, be it whether I end up choosing 3100k or 4200k on either size I still feel unsure, i see benefits to both really but I do lean toward the 4200k for more uvb... That being said, I do really appreciate the 'talk down' that a newbie like me needs to not shell out extra cash for what won't make a difference/cause diminshing returns.

Now its to figure out whether to grow big horizontal scrogs for each plant with the 315w's or to grow big vertical screens around hanging 860w is my main question for the time being. The 860w silos appear to be the best bang for my buck, being that I get 200 sq ft of vertical canopy lit with only 3,440w of cmh, only 4 ballasts needed and those 1000w magnetic mh magnetic ballasts are cheap too... it leaves me more to spend on other equipment and have some contingency money left over for future upgrades / things I'm not considering... that is feeling like the best and safest investment plan for someone who hasn't really truly gotten their feet wet in this yet.

Thanks again to anyone and everyone for all the help, steering and advice you guys.

 

[LastHurrah]

...The 'bare bulb down between the tops' idea makes less sense with CMH; most people actually keep them up by the ceiling to avoid burning issues. Others here describe potential problems with leaf burning when closer that 2 feet or so.

Dang frostqueen. I was all set to do the 'bare bulb down between the tops' thing because of the obvious increase in yields (and decrease in reflector costs) WITH HPS.

Are you suggesting that a horizontal CMH garden outperforms a vertical HPS garden? I'm not debating the notion, just surprised. You'd think that if vertical HPS outperforms horizontal, and if CMH outperforms HPS, then vertical CMH should outperform horizontal (garden, not bulb) CMH.

I would think I could increase the diameter of the donut and pull the plants back enough to account for the potential leaf burning problems. Thoughts?

LH

 

[HUGE]

Thanks for the advice.. well, the budget isn't unlimited, but I was considering mixing spectrums for best result, but after more research I am leaning towards your advice to make sure I don't overdue it. I will be at a legal plant count of 12 in flower, so that makes a difference about spread, also I am considering 8' ceilings, which has me thinking something like the phantom setup your suggesting, with big huge scrogged trees, or something like two vertical cage builds with some of the larger 860w cmh (like 4, two for each vertical silo) to maximize my growing space for two vertical circular scrog screens 5 feet in diameter. I have given up on the hps/plasma type idea and am solidly going to invest in one plasma light for my veg room, and stick with these cmh from phillips for my flowering spectrum, be it whether I end up choosing 3100k or 4200k on either size I still feel unsure, i see benefits to both really but I do lean toward the 4200k for more uvb... That being said, I do really appreciate the 'talk down' that a newbie like me needs to not shell out extra cash for what won't make a difference/cause diminshing returns.

Now its to figure out whether to grow big horizontal scrogs for each plant with the 315w's or to grow big vertical screens around hanging 860w is my main question for the time being. The 860w silos appear to be the best bang for my buck, being that I get 200 sq ft of vertical canopy lit with only 3,440w of cmh, only 4 ballasts needed and those 1000w magnetic mh magnetic ballasts are cheap too... it leaves me more to spend on other equipment and have some contingency money left over for future upgrades / things I'm not considering... that is feeling like the best and safest investment plan for someone who hasn't really truly gotten their feet wet in this yet.

Thanks again to anyone and everyone for all the help, steering and advice you guys.

Just a word of advise. The 4200 doesn't really have more uvb. They both Ave about 0.0 uvb when measured with a meter. I can say the 3100 has more usable energy.

 

[timmur]

I'm going to have to disagree with frostqueen on this one when he says anything over 45 watts/sq ft CMH isn't helping you. First I prefer to talk about light in terms of PPFD not watts/sq ft. With that said, my setup is targeting 1050 to 1100 PPFD of Greenbeams which is right at 60 watts/sq ft. Research indicates that uniform light up to 1200 PPFD and up to 60 DLI can be utilized in a high performance environment that includes the correct temperatures, CO2, vpd, etc... This approach really only makes sense when space is the primary constraint and maximum yield is desired.

I agree with his comments on spectrum however. CMH is a complete spectrum and doesn't need to be supplemented with anything unless you're just trying to supply cheaper photons by mixing DE HPS with them.

 

[Top.Shelf]

I'm being real lazy here, although I fully intend to read through this thread as well as the og cmh thread Rives posted but, I got a couple of quick questions before I get stuck in. Hopefully some kind soul will not mind answering them for me.

How does a single 315 compare to a regular 600w hps using a mag ballast for yield?
How much heat does the dual 315 (630) fixture let off compared to a 600w hps using mag ballast?

What is the optimum space coverage of the 315 and the 630?

Thanks in advance!!

 

[timmur]

I'm being real lazy here, although I fully intend to read through this thread as well as the og cmh thread Rives posted but, I got a couple of quick questions before I get stuck in. Hopefully some kind soul will not mind answering them for me.

How does a single 315 compare to a regular 600w hps using a mag ballast for yield?
How much heat does the dual 315 (630) fixture let off compared to a 600w hps using mag ballast?

What is the optimum space coverage of the 315 and the 630?

Thanks in advance!!

In terms of lighting a 3 x 3 it takes two CMH to equal a single 600 watt HPS. Heat should be a toss up with less infrared with the CMH.

In terms of yield, scrappy-doo pulled 1 lb per light.

 

[Jhhnn]

I like my CDM's make no mistake about it. They're great for truly small growers, particularly w/ air cooling. OTOH, it seems to me that the advantage switches to the DE HPS systems when it turns into more than a few KW where A/C becomes a necessity.

If I were contemplating using 5-6K of power or more w/ 8' ceilings, I'd be taking a very hard look at that tech, maybe supplement it with some CDM.

 

[Jhhnn]

In terms of lighting a 3 x 3 it takes two CMH to equal a single 600 watt HPS. Heat should be a toss up with less infrared with the CMH.

My limited experience tells me that twin 315's are better than that, rivaling a single 1000w conventional lamp. A 1000w lamp in a 3x3 space is total overkill at 111w/ sq ft.

Commercial growers w/ a lot more experience commonly use ~60w of conventional HID/ sq ft because that appears to be the point of diminished returns. More light gives better yield but not enough better to warrant the addl expense. Beyond that, the yield per watt curve flattens out regardless of the grow style.

 

[Key Ran]

Just a word of advise. The 4200 doesn't really have more uvb. They both Ave about 0.0 uvb when measured with a meter. I can say the 3100 has more usable energy.

Thank you for that. I alwasy wondered what the actual output of uvb was. Perhaps I shall have to look at some other supplemental light if I really feel its necessary. Perhaps the 3100 will have desired results without some extra uvb lighting as I can't figure out a great way to get it into the grow without a lot of extra work, as I hear the quality of cmh grows far outweighs that of regular hps, and I am growing completely for a quality over yield for this adventure.

 

[rives]

In terms of lighting a 3 x 3 it takes two CMH to equal a single 600 watt HPS. Heat should be a toss up with less infrared with the CMH.

In terms of yield, scrappy-doo pulled 1 lb per light.

By "in terms of lighting", do you mean to reach the same levels of measurable illumination or ???

I've never used a 600w HPS, but from what most people have said, a single 315's performance is very comparable to a 600w. The 315's spectrum has a much higher percentage of usability to the plant compared to HPS.

 

[timmur]

By "in terms of lighting", do you mean to reach the same levels of measurable illumination or ???

I've never used a 600w HPS, but from what most people have said, a single 315's performance is very comparable to a 600w. The 315's spectrum has a much higher percentage of usability to the plant compared to HPS.

Yeah I was referring to PPFD. Spectrum of CMH is definitely better for plant growth.

 

[GET MO]

I went with the Phantom kits. I have 2 in a 4x4 tent and 6 in a 8x8 tent, but soon to be 8 in a 8x8. I liked the price over the sunsystems because I got a great deal on the Phantoms. Plus I liked the option of adding air cooling to them. Thought I might need it running so many in a tent.

One of the reasons I went with the phantom was cuz the light isnt attached to the ballast, so i can have my ballast outside of the tent which should lower heat a lil bit as well.