Philips 315w CDM Elite (CMH)

[Scrappy-doo]

I have no issues whatevsoever with the welthink ballasts. They fire up every time and the build quality is solid. . I'd go for the philips ballast if I could do it over mainly because of the dimming feature which would have really come in handy as well as being a little more efficient and supposed longer lamp life. If you're able to you're probably better off going with the ballast these bulbs were designed to work with. I could have got the philips ballasts from Flip but at the time I just wanted convenience and the welthink are 120v plug and play. Probably not ideal but they do work great and I'm very pleased with the performance.

 

[HorseBadoritiz]

I was totally confused about what lec bulbs did what, and thanks to Rives and Jhnnnn, I went with the ATL mogul package.

I'm a hobby gardener, and I had been running 400W CMH retros for 4 years. Bare vertical, single and double stacked, in horizontal hoods, and also along with 400W MH red and/or blue bulbs. They all did well, but when Philips quit making the CMH's, it was time to change, LOL!

For the past 3 months I've been running 3 mogul bases between 4 different hoods: horizontal Yield Master II, an un-named similar version, an old Super Sun, and an OG. They all seem to work equally well. I've also seen a lot of grows with cheapie semi-adjustable hoods get great results with lec's.

The lec's have let me cut back on wattage, and some heat, am still getting the same or better yields, and it seems like even more frost than the CMH's, which seemed hard to beat. I've also dropped back to 11/13 with no notable difference.

I've been able to cut 2 chambers back from 1600W (CMH/MH stacks) to 700W (I'm seeing these kits draw about 350W ea) of lighting.

I want to try a 930 because I've been hearing that UVA/B can degrade THC in later bloom, especially if the lamp is closer than 12" to the canopy, anybody know anything about that? I also think that the pgz base is more efficient than a mogul, but I have no idea how much more?

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there if it might help someone get off the HPS fence, LOL!

I must just be lucky, too, because I got my kits (and all my previous CMH's) from Thomas in under 10 days... and most in 3-5.

Keep the light white, ha!

 

[Jhhnn]

I think that the UV from all the CDM lamps is so much lower than natural sunlight as to be inconsequential. By design, there's not enough of it to be either helpful or harmful.

 

[dyna mo humm]

Jhhhn I was going to reply with a PM but I guess I don't have that option
Maybe not enough posts or something, I guess I need to spam a bunch of grow threads

Anyway just under 4 bills ea

 

[luxcultivars]

That should work in cool tubes. Getting twin 315's in my reflector was a lot more work but seems to work fine. Cool tubes were basically designed for thinner HPS lamps rather than the plumper ED37 lamps. Hell, that might not really make enough difference to matter but the PGZ lamps def won't pose a problem.

It's important to remember that 315's really won't replace 1000w lamps on a one for one basis. My very limited experience is that 630w of CDM may be in the same ballpark. I'll be in a better position to judge as this first grow with CDM unfolds. It's looking good so far.

Thanks, Jhhnn. I would just be using single 315s to retrofit my current 600W halides, in veg. primarily.

As far as quick/easy conversion options vs. buying the cheapest 315w out-of-the-box option (Sun Systems @ ~$475), I'd save about $150 per unit, but I'd also have to provide reflectors. I have a couple of these 8" tubes already, but beyond converting those two over, I am inclined to just go for either the Sun Systems 315 or splurge a bit for the Greenbeams.

For the main flower rooms I am 99% sure that I will now move forward with the Sun Systems LC630 to replace my current 1000w HPS fixtures. I am hearing great things from those who have done this.

 

[luxcultivars]

I have no issues whatevsoever with the welthink ballasts. They fire up every time and the build quality is solid. . I'd go for the philips ballast if I could do it over mainly because of the dimming feature which would have really come in handy as well as being a little more efficient and supposed longer lamp life. If you're able to you're probably better off going with the ballast these bulbs were designed to work with. I could have got the philips ballasts from Flip but at the time I just wanted convenience and the welthink are 120v plug and play. Probably not ideal but they do work great and I'm very pleased with the performance.

Hey Scrappy. I was told that using the dimming feature skews the spectrum of output of the bulb quite a bit. I was actually ready to go with the DimLux 630 outfit as it is dimmable, but was told to avoid dimming altogether.

Anyone have thoughts or info on this spectrum shift when dimming? I love the idea of having that option...

 

[Avenger]

It depends upon the HID you're referring to, for example, Philips 315W CMH Greenpower and MasterColor Elite 942 dimmed spectra are below.

I for one really like the idea of ePapillion's Double dPapillion, using one Greenpower (for its greater efficiency of covering watts into PAR rang photons vs. Elite 942) and one MasterColor Elite 942 (for its better spectrum and much greater UV-A and UV-B output vs. Greenpower).

In a perfect world, if cost wasn't a consideration, I would use only Greembeams with MasterColor Elite 942 lamps, but considering a large scale commercial operation the Double dPapillion with one Greenpower and one MasterColor Eilte 942 is a very attractive option (albeit considerably less ideal uniformity of radiation over canopy vs. Greenbeams). Another excellent optoin for large scale grow operations is a mix of ePapillion (DE HPS) and Double dPapillion, simply for the issue of start-up costs (due to price of CMH luminaires).

Note: The spectroradiometer used for these data isn't top of the line, it's merely entry level, so these data cannot be considered very accurate, but they are a good representation of effects on spectra by dimming.

MasterColor Elite 942 (ePapillion calls this the "daylight" lamp, I believe):

Greenpower (also known as MasterColor Eilte Agro 930):

from this thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=306797&highlight=dimming

 

[luxcultivars]

Thanks, Avenger! Great info. Much appreciated.

 

[GoldenSyrup]

As I said, if I got them up I would come back. Well I'm impatient, so I put the other 3 lamps up as I have been using 1 amongst two HPS for a while now.

I'll come back mid-flower and at the end with more pictures and results.

 

[McKush]

As I said, if I got them up I would come back. Well I'm impatient, so I put the other 3 lamps up as I have been using 1 amongst two HPS for a while now.

I'll come back mid-flower and at the end with more pictures and results.

View Image
View Image

Good looking group GS

 

[vuuduu]

Hi guys you been mentioned that with these CMH's you won't need as much wattage than with hps.
I planning a grow in 240 x 120 tent with 2 x dpapillon 630w mixed bulbs and add one epapillon 600w in the middle for added red. Am I adding too much light and should I just drop the epap from the middle. One thing I been considering is to use it just few hours on simulating mid day sun.

Grow is going to be mostly sativas/hazes.

Thanks

 

[GoldenSyrup]

Vuuduu I was under the impression that the sun more or less shone full spectrum all the time, there wasn't any spikes of certain colours I could be wrong though.

From a yield point of view you're obviously going to experience some increase - as for quality I don't think anyone can really answer that for you - you will have to do a run back to back with the same clone, with the hps and without it and see if the increase in yield is worth any potential loss in quality from the same clone.


and thanks Mckush - they're phenos from seed this run so they look a bit miss-match hopefully next time with a select clone will look a bit neater

 

[raspaul]

Hi guys you been mentioned that with these CMH's you won't need as much wattage than with hps.
I planning a grow in 240 x 120 tent with 2 x dpapillon 630w mixed bulbs and add one epapillon 600w in the middle for added red. Am I adding too much light and should I just drop the epap from the middle. One thing I been considering is to use it just few hours on simulating mid day sun.

Grow is going to be mostly sativas/hazes.

Thanks

Hey Vuuduu I'm just getting to the end of my first run with a double d papillon 630w, I was running it in a 1.2 x 1.2 x 2 tent until my air con failed and have had to run it in the room instead to keep it cooler till the end of summer.
Anyways you shouldn't need to add the epapillon in the middle, the 2 630's should be plenty of light for that size tent and you can always boost them if you need more light which I believe also increases the red spectrum.

Raspaul

 

[prelude91sir]

well i went the atl and vertigro hood route for now. ordered from atl over weekend and recieved it today. Thanks atl for the fast shipping. hood shood be here tomorrow. now i just got to get ready to wire this thing up. i think i just might run 220 to the room. idk know yet though.
was thinking about making my own light controller(dont plan on running maybe no more the 3 of these lights for now. 2 for flowering on flip between 2 4x8 tents and one for veg. i seen somebody locally selling this for about 175 im sure i can get it cheaper. i know i would have to change out the 220 outlets or would i? i could just a regular cord wired to ballast so long as its 220 right?

 

[rives]

was thinking about making my own light controller(dont plan on running maybe no more the 3 of these lights for now. 2 for flowering on flip between 2 4x8 tents and one for veg. i seen somebody locally selling this for about 175 im sure i can get it cheaper. i know i would have to change out the 220 outlets or would i? i could just a regular cord wired to ballast so long as its 220 right?

Jesus Christ!

I don't have enough time or energy to delineate everything that is wrong with that fucked up mess. Let's start with fire danger, electrocution hazard, more code violations than an inspector could write up, and voiding your fire insurance.

Check out the threads on light controllers in the Growroom Designs & Equipment section, and the Growroom Electricity & Wiring thread.

 

[psyphish]

Hey Vuuduu I'm just getting to the end of my first run with a double d papillon 630w, I was running it in a 1.2 x 1.2 x 2 tent until my air con failed and have had to run it in the room instead to keep it cooler till the end of summer.
Anyways you shouldn't need to add the epapillon in the middle, the 2 630's should be plenty of light for that size tent and you can always boost them if you need more light which I believe also increases the red spectrum.

Raspaul

2 x 315w isn't enough for 1.2 x 1.2m. I have two D-Papillons in a 120x90cm plus an 80w LED panel. I think I could benefit from another LED.

 

[raspaul]

Hi guys you been mentioned that with these CMH's you won't need as much wattage than with hps.
I planning a grow in 240 x 120 tent with 2 x dpapillon 630w mixed bulbs and add one epapillon 600w in the middle for added red. Am I adding too much light and should I just drop the epap from the middle. One thing I been considering is to use it just few hours on simulating mid day sun.

Grow is going to be mostly sativas/hazes.

Thanks

2 x 315w isn't enough for 1.2 x 1.2m. I have two D-Papillons in a 120x90cm plus an 80w LED panel. I think I could benefit from another LED.

He said 2 630w d papillons not the 315w version and the 630w is definitely big enough for a 1.2 x 1.2 tent, I mean come on these are a lot more powerful than a HPS and I always got good results with a 600w HPS in a 1.2 x1.2 tent as I'm sure most people do.
The dpap 630w version can also be boosted to 760w and thats 47.5w per ft2, now you can't tell me that's not enough light for a 1.2 x 1.2 tent or 2 of them for a 2.4 x 1.2 tent especially with the spectrum these throw out, that 760w while boosted is easily equivalent to a 1k HPS if not more.
People seem to be doing OK with a 315w over a 3 x 3 footprint from what I've seen so imho a 630w over 4 x 4 is plenty of light.

Raspaul

 

[vuuduu]

Thank you for your answers.

Yes I was talking about those double dpaps so I'll drop the epap from the middle. Will also save some electric and can fire up more tents now.

One love and have a good weekend everyone.

 

[IntotheGreen]

Phew, ok. So I have just finished a little light reading (light reading - get it?) But seriously, I spent the last several days reading through all 463 pages of the original CMH thread, the 60 pages of this thread (twice for good measure), plus the 67-page reflector thread, some side-tracking into photosynthesis and action spectra, and probably every version of spec sheets Philips has ever released for these lamps. I'm quite confident that I did more reading on this topic than I did for any college class, save for maybe that Dostoevsky course junior year... At any rate, I think I'm ready to make a serious upgrade and test the 315 waters!

Currently I'm about halfway through flowering on my first grow back after a several-year hiatus. This is my 8th grow overall, all having been done in a small closet with the HTG 250w HPS/MH conversion combo. My best haul out of my old 2x2 ft space was about 5.5 oz, hoping to pull 6+ out of my current 2x3 closet - about 3.5 weeks to go under the 250 HPS + four 100w equivalent CFLs (2x 6400K, 2x 5000K). Pretty sure the HPS bulb is on its last legs, as it periodically goes out then restrikes - adding a little urgency to the situation lol. Regardless, I'm looking to upgrade both the lighting and the grow space on my next run. Current plan is to run two 315 systems in the new space, which measures roughly 7.5 x 2 ft in floor space, with standard 8 ft ceiling in the closet. Here are a couple pics of the new real estate:


I'm so glad to hear that Tom from ATL is shipping in a timely manner, as I've decided that the mogul 942 + Philips ballast is the best combination of quality and obviously price, and intend to order the first kit this weekend! The plan is to start my new beans (KOS C99) under the first lamp, and procure the second unit by the time the seedlings are ready for SCROGging. From my reading here it seems the ATL combo is just the ballast and bulb, leaving SUSD transformer, timer, lamp and power cords/plug receptacle, and reflector to complete the system. I have a couple questions I'd like to throw out to you guys:

1) Am I forgetting anything?

2) I am under the assumption that to accommodate 2 x 315 CMD systems I will need a 1000w transformer - correct?

3) Does anyone have any experience with this reflector?:

http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-Maxwing-Reflector
Based on what I gathered from the reflector thread, full coverage of aluminum including end pieces for $40 seems like a tough deal to beat!

Anyway, thanks for all the awesome information and any help you 315ers can offer!

One more thing I'd like to add, since I don't think I've seen it posted anywhere in this thread - helpful video by I'm assuming Tom from ATL including step-by-step wiring instructions for lamp, Philips ballast, and transformer:
https://youtu.be/3nRqTMPOjvc

 

[Unclecrash]

I'm so glad to hear that Tom from ATL is shipping in a timely manner, as I've decided that the mogul 942 + Philips ballast

Maybe after I told him I already purchased a second 315 ballast from another guy almost a week later and got it before his, maybe he relized he is loosing a bit of buisness. I won't go back to him for my next two.