Pheno Hunting strategies

[Miraculous Meds]

My main goal is to locate good moms and dads from seedlings, by flowering large amounts of seedlings in a small area, while cloning each plant to have a copy so when I choose the winning moms and dads I don't have to reveg.

Goal finishing height of 18" or less, to maximize space for largest amounts of seedlings per area of flower im designating for this test.

So with that small outline of my plan I have a few questions. Do the seedlings need a certain amount of time to mature before flowering?
I was hoping to take lateral branch clones, but on my first attempt at this I didn't get the lights down on the seedlings quick enough and had them all crammed in tight, solo cups touching, and caused straight vert growth with no laterals. So this run Im gonna have clone from the top cause they are already at goal height to finish at.
So would it be possible to keep them this small at finish while getting my clones off the side branches in future runs, because topping usually takes quite a bit of time for the plants to recover and flower decent?

 

[guerilllataktic]

you can run them 12/12 from seed, however my opinion is you will see a better representation of the plants when you flower them when they are more mature aka pre flowers showing, i know when doing a selection you want to get it done quick as possible but in my experience is key i do two eliminates i narrow it down to the best two or three phenols then i do another run with them from clone before i make my final decision and the final test is the smoke test after a nice cure after ll that is what matters to me ,anyways there are more than one way to skin a cat and that is mine good luck on your endeavor and post up some pics so we can follow along

 

[Miraculous Meds]

you can run them 12/12 from seed, however my opinion is you will see a better representation of the plants when you flower them when they are more mature aka pre flowers showing, i know when doing a selection you want to get it done quick as possible but in my experience is key i do two eliminates i narrow it down to the best two or three phenols then i do another run with them from clone before i make my final decision and the final test is the smoke test after a nice cure after ll that is what matters to me ,anyways there are more than one way to skin a cat and that is mine good luck on your endeavor and post up some pics so we can follow along

thanks for replying guerilllataktic,

I don't think 12/12 will work for my strategy of getting a clone off each one. So I gotta get some veg time on them anyway. How long before they show preflower usually? Im such a newb with seeds. I definitely plan on running the best few again for comparison.

 

[Corpsey]

40-45 days from the seed coming up they are usually mature and showing preflowers. They also start to stagger nodes, pretty easy to see.

What strain(s) do plan on running ? That can make a difference with getting clones off of the bottom. For example most sour bubble and crosses would not work with getting many if any clones from the bottom.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

40-45 days from the seed coming up they are usually mature and showing preflowers. They also start to stagger nodes, pretty easy to see.

What strain(s) do plan on running ? That can make a difference with getting clones off of the bottom. For example most sour bubble and crosses would not work with getting many if any clones from the bottom.

Yeah I think I figured out if I wanna keep them small and get clones then topping is the only thing that makes sense. Im running DJ's current line up.

 

[BadRabbit]

Yeah I think I figured out if I wanna keep them small and get clones then topping is the only thing that makes sense. Im running DJ's current line up.

MM:

I run an ongoing test lab, aside from the regular perpetual garden process, to run seeds and hunt for great moms. While some sativa dominant plants work very well when run at 12/12 from seed, you're going to have a hard time with that strategy on polyhybrids; i.e., most commercial seeds out today.

Side branching is a genetic trait ... yes, less light in a tight spacing will inhibit those branches, but they'll still be there. If they don't have side branches, it's likely the phenotype of the plant itself more than the light impact.

Generally, you can top and flower a plant after 5 weeks veg and get a good representation of the pheno with a little less height than a non topped plant. Don't worry if there aren't readily available cuts; you will easily find cuts after they are in flower for up to 2 weeks .... You can take cuts later than that, but 1 to 2 wks in is ideal.

If determining sex before taking cuts is important to you, then yes, wait for preflowers, but as noted, that takes longer ... why waste time/space? Take cuts, and you eventually know the sex of each.

There is really no way to keep a plant flowered at 5 weeks (or even 4 weeks which I sometimes do, ) to 18" unless you simply lopp off the top/main cola(s) .... which is usually not recommended for many reasons. Plants flowered early will stretch like a bitch, even when topped right at flowering .... it is their way.

You can use bending/tying over to control stretch height, or run them scrog style on a screen, same basic approach.

Your basic idea is sound, but my advice would be to lower you plan for the total number of seeds you're try to test at one time, plan on a X3 stretch and control it it the best you can.

And always remember, if the plant shows interesting qualities, the clones are very often much easier to grow and control plant height .... they tend to go into flower more quickly, and often will show a bit less stretch.

hope that helps, good luck

 

[Miraculous Meds]

MM:

I run an ongoing test lab, aside from the regular perpetual garden process, to run seeds and hunt for great moms. While some sativa dominant plants work very well when run at 12/12 from seed, you're going to have a hard time with that strategy on polyhybrids; i.e., most commercial seeds out today.

Side branching is a genetic trait ... yes, less light in a tight spacing will inhibit those branches, but they'll still be there. If they don't have side branches, it's likely the phenotype of the plant itself more than the light impact.

Generally, you can top and flower a plant after 5 weeks veg and get a good representation of the pheno with a little less height than a non topped plant. Don't worry if there aren't readily available cuts; you will easily find cuts after they are in flower for up to 2 weeks .... You can take cuts later than that, but 1 to 2 wks in is ideal.

If determining sex before taking cuts is important to you, then yes, wait for preflowers, but as noted, that takes longer ... why waste time/space? Take cuts, and you eventually know the sex of each.

There is really no way to keep a plant flowered at 5 weeks (or even 4 weeks which I sometimes do, ) to 18" unless you simply lopp off the top/main cola(s) .... which is usually not recommended for many reasons. Plants flowered early will stretch like a bitch, even when topped right at flowering .... it is their way.

You can use bending/tying over to control stretch height, or run them scrog style on a screen, same basic approach.

Your basic idea is sound, but my advice would be to lower you plan for the total number of seeds you're try to test at one time, plan on a X3 stretch and control it it the best you can.

And always remember, if the plant shows interesting qualities, the clones are very often much easier to grow and control plant height .... they tend to go into flower more quickly, and often will show a bit less stretch.

hope that helps, good luck

Awesome info sir. I started getting my head out of the clouds and realize u r right. I let them get to a pole like 18" already so I chose to lop them down to 6" getting my clones and now I should be able to flip them and keep them pretty small. Going vert with trellis so I think I will be able to control most of them into the space I want. Since they can grow 18" in height but vert tends to make them stetch sideways and I think that will make my idea work.. We will see.

Wish I could pos rep u guys but it wont let me do it yet. Thanks again.

 

[stoney917]

Djxxx is the man when it comes to poppin hella seeds pheno hunting with having limited space...
I think he pops multiple seeds per pot... tops them for cuts n flips... dudes 600w grow looks like 6k

 

[Miraculous Meds]

Djxxx is the man when it comes to poppin hella seeds pheno hunting with having limited space...
I think he pops multiple seeds per pot... tops them for cuts n flips... dudes 600w grow looks like 6k

Cool thanks for the info, Im gonna go check that out.

 

[RonSmooth]

How much experience do you have growing cannabis?

What is your goal in finding a "keeper"? Is it commercial? Medical? Hobby?

I ask because if its just a personal thing, why not buy a pack of female seeds, plant em all, take cuts, and choose the best one after harvest.

What you are describing is much more involved and requires double the space, not to mention extra time. To do it right, you need large numbers to select from, open pollinations, stabilizing.

If you're down for the time, work and costs go for it.

If you just want consistently good weed, it might be overkill/

 

[Miraculous Meds]

How much experience do you have growing cannabis?

What is your goal in finding a "keeper"? Is it commercial? Medical? Hobby?

I ask because if its just a personal thing, why not buy a pack of female seeds, plant em all, take cuts, and choose the best one after harvest.

What you are describing is much more involved and requires double the space, not to mention extra time. To do it right, you need large numbers to select from, open pollinations, stabilizing.

If you're down for the time, work and costs go for it.

If you just want consistently good weed, it might be overkill/

Got a lot of experience, 15 years give or take. Just was blessed with clone elites from the get go. So as for seeds, and a real plan, besides popping a few and seeing what u get, im a newb. But ive done a bit of research and have plans and goals but nothing beats physically doing it in real world.

Im looking for elites and good breeding parents, that's why im trying to do 50 of each strain. I know u need thousands to be real world pro but I cant do that so here I am.

Ive got space and time, limited by elec but that goes into planning ie; keeping them small. But im all ears to any suggestions, thnks for stopping in sir.

 

[oceangrownkush]

If space is limited I would ditch the dad idea. Proper male selection takes exponentially more space and time. You also need a solid female for which to hybridize with all the dads and space to test their progeny.. Lots and lots of work, when you could have selected a strong, independent single mother who don't need no man.

My plan for selecting keepers is to germinate to 100x fem seedlings, veg for 30 days in 1/2 gallon pots and cull the first round of phenos based on veg characteristics. The most vigorous and branchy phenos will make it to another 15 or so days veg in 3 gallon containers, tops taken for cuttings and then flowered. Rinse and repeat until 500x plants have been evaluated, select keepers from there.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

If space is limited I would ditch the dad idea. Proper male selection takes exponentially more space and time. You also need a solid female for which to hybridize with all the dads and space to test their progeny.. Lots and lots of work, when you could have selected a strong, independent single mother who don't need no man.

My plan for selecting keepers is to germinate to 100x fem seedlings, veg for 30 days in 1/2 gallon pots and cull the first round of phenos based on veg characteristics. The most vigorous and branchy phenos will make it to another 15 or so days veg in 3 gallon containers, tops taken for cuttings and then flowered. Rinse and repeat until 500x plants have been evaluated, select keepers from there.

Ive got a separate chamber for the men. Ive got lots of elite females. I don't know about becoming a breeder to sell seeds, that seems like a tough job. I want to bring something special into this world that I can say I helped create

I guess I want something I can call my own. Maybe a selfish pride thing idk... Do u really feel like u made it if it was just fem seeds being popped. At the end of the day, u might be right on strategy since Im not looking to sell seeds.

IDK... thoughts, anbody?

 

[Corpsey]

Grow any plant you want, throw pollen like no other. Shit is too fun to make your own seeds, vegetables including.

Also wasn't rezdog breeding just in a garage, and Subcool always says you would laugh at his breeding environment, I think he doesn't have anything special just a room. Not 1000's of plants. I'm sure the examples are endless, amazing plants come from other amazing plants nothing new there.

 

[oceangrownkush]

Oh I'm making the fem seeds myself though, forgot to mention. Fems just make more sense to me, why waste time with plants we don't use?

 

[oceangrownkush]

Imagine how much it would cost to buy 500x fem seeds.. Waaaaaayyyy too much for me lol.

 

[DJXX]

Hey MM are you really looking for boys...seed making is cool once...but after that you are only taking away from your yield...when i am pheno hunting though them, i can pop double the amount, cause usually they are half boys and in the trash they go..with the girls I put three different strains in a 3gal smartie to flower...and after they have been labeled a keeper they get a 3gal all to their self...now if you jus gotta have a male do the stem rub and keep the stankiest, best structure and the baddest ass one...once you get that keeper male use him for breeding...good luck in your pheno hunting...DJXX

 

[SG1]

If you breed mediocre weed to mediocre weed, you get mediocre weed.
You need to ask yourself, what kind of breeding do you want.
Do you want to continue a line? For example (OG Kush x OG Kush)
Or do you want to make crosses and create a new strain?
Both take a different approach .

I agree with RonSmooth.
Buy a couple high quality seed packs, something that really interests you.

For line breeding plant 6 of 10 seeds and find the best female and keep cuts, later pop the rest to find a male to take back to your best selected female.
Same for crossing but pop seeds from the other line to get your male.

I run 30 seeds at a time, kill all males, grow all females to term, then have all phenos lab tested.
I keep the best 2 females as cuttings, if I want some F-2's, I start more seed and find a male with a similar structure and stem smell, then make babies.

Anyone can make seeds, unfortunately 95% of these seeds will never be grown or tested.
But few have the space, time or energy to pop the numbers of seeds it takes to find the gems hidden in the seed sack.

If I were you, I'd buy good seed stock and just hunt for keeper females.
It's the great female cuts that make the best seeds.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

Wow, thanks to everybody that has stopped in so far. I know u don't have to so it humbles me when people share such as urselfs.

Ok so that was a lot of info, I have quick read thru it, but I need to go back and re read to absorb it all.

So I do have a bit of a plan. But I start to get lost in the thinking that I want to make in lines of everything for back ups and future pheno hunting. Also I have already thought of many crosses with the new lines id like to make. Then there is the 20 some elites I already have to make crosses to.

Like sg1 explained there is no way me and 5 of my friends will ever get all those beans popped lol.

So for the immediate future its running seeds to clone, then flower finding my keepers, while selecting a couple of males from each larger seed pool. Then ill pitch all the extra males, and after flower I can pitch all the extra females that don't make the cut. Maybe save the best couple females and run again. Then make seeds with 2 males of each, to test for the best male. then test the off spring.

Easy peasy Im in my 30's, I think I might get 1/2 way thru before I die. lol
shit I gotta refine my plan.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

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