Perlite and beyond: the pros and cons of various drainage and aeration amendments

[heady blunts]

sweeeet! i just got mandala 8 mile high. ordered them almost a month ago and they just got here today woohoo! also got some sam the skunkman freebies.

back to the topic at hand. i was at my hydro store today and they had these samples from bontanicare of a product called "hydrolite." anyone heard of it? i took two bags home to give it the old soak test. the description is "a natural silica-based, volcanic mineral with a unique porous crystaline structure that allows it to hold nutrients..."

sounds like pumice to me...

 

[TACOE]

I'm Curious.

On their website, it says "nutrient charged - to balance cec." what nutes?

1 cu ft. bag = 50 lbs. sounds wicked heavy. Not that that's an issue. Opposite end of the spectrum from the rice hulls i just picked up

How much$ did they run you?

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

soak test failed! don't use that stuff. calcined DE should be very hard and impervious to water and strong vinegar. it shouldn't fizz or bubble.

the reason it needs to be about 1/8th" is that as it gets smaller it acts as a moisture retention amendment more than anything. I believe what happens is that it starts holding water on the outside. those big chunky pieces hold it on the inside.

same goes for turface.

actually, the same principle applies to silt and clay. as your particles get smaller you retain more water.

I did buy some DE specially made for orchids/gardening and it doesnt fizz but is easy to crush between thumb and forefinger.

So we dont want to hold much water but have it drain?

This may not apply to soiless?

I have the lavalite in my mixes now so i will see how it goes, fingers crossed

 

[mad librettist]

I did buy some DE specially made for orchids/gardening and it doesnt fizz but is easy to crush between thumb and forefinger.

So we dont want to hold much water but have it drain?

This may not apply to soiless?

I have the lavalite in my mixes now so i will see how it goes, fingers crossed

We want to hold maximum air and water. When you start holding more water beyond a certain point, you start excluding air.

If your soil were all 1/8th inch chunks but with no internal porosity, the only water held would be between particles, and it would be very little. To hold more water you would reduce particle size, which would also exclude more air. By moving the water inside a large chunk, you give the water nothing to stick to between the chunks, but you still hold plenty of available water.

If you think of the forces pulling water out of your mix, then for water to stay you need to overcome those forces. You can also directly observe how much water is held by gravel, sand, and clay.

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

Yep i gotcha!

I just tested my DE again and it isnt as weak as i thought. It will crush down with a hard/semi sharp surface quite easily but i cant crush it between my thumb forefinger without also using my thumbnail.

You sure bout the fizzing thing? Isnt that air being displaced by water? The gardening one doesnt fizzle but right enough.

 

[mad librettist]

Perlite and beyond: the pros and cons of various drainage and aeration amendments

Yep i gotcha!

I just tested my DE again and it isnt as weak as i thought. It will crush down with a hard/semi sharp surface quite easily but i cant crush it between my thumb forefinger without also using my thumbnail.

You sure bout the fizzing thing? Isnt that air being displaced by water? The gardening one doesnt fizzle but right enough.

fizzing sounds like an exothermic reaction to me. afaik calcined DE should only react with hydroflouric acid.

the calcined fullers earth reacts with vegetable oil supposedly.

have not done a crush test on my DE, but fingernail proof for sure. turface I can crush with my hand.

 

[mad librettist]

Perlite and beyond: the pros and cons of various drainage and aeration amendments

the stuff im getting has no fines. got it at auto zone.

be careful folks! looks like the car parts people dont care if there are fines or not, so the same brand will vary.

went to autozone today, and their DE was nothing but fines.

 

[jaykush]

hmm so it most likely depends on brand i guess.

 

[mad librettist]

I think it's more than brand. As an oil absorbent, it doesn't need to be chunky. So sometimes it's a chunky pallet, sometimes it's a lemon. Probably depends on which bags get filled first and which get the dregs.

Autozone also has two sizes of bags - the larger bags are montmorillionite, which is the same as turface (I think)

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

After reading through the whole thread i am happy my DE is the right stuff.

It doesnt turn to mush or clump together and used as a mulch has eliminated a small fungus gnat prob i was having

I love the fizzing anyhoos

 

[jaykush]

well as i have been going around, from what ive seen its brand. some are fine, some are not. i got 5 bags of the stuff i found at autozone. its white bag, yellow writing, and blue under that. it says 100% diatomatious earth. in multiple languages. i used them for a large hardwood propagation bed i have set up and all of them were exactly the same consistency.

also i got some from the dollar tree in a brownish/red cat litter bag. 5 lbs for 1$, nice even 1/4" absolutely NO FINES at all.

that being said, i think this stuff is sort of pricey as a soil amendment for price vs. weight. not sure how long it lasts in the soil, if it lasts years its well worth it then. if its more short term id rather go with 1/4 inch screen lavarock for anything more than a few bags of DE. but for those only growing a few pots, seems to be worth it.

 

[mad librettist]

that being said, i think this stuff is sort of pricey as a soil amendment for price vs. weight. not sure how long it lasts in the soil, if it lasts years its well worth it then. if its more short term id rather go with 1/4 inch screen lavarock for anything more than a few bags of DE. but for those only growing a few pots, seems to be worth it.

durability is supposed to be very high.

definitely more expensive than other amendments.

 

[TACOE]

Must have called a hundred carquests.. no luck with 8022
and a hundred napas. one place had 8833.. got 2 bags... it fizzes for me. Plenty of fines to use for the kitties. Screening in my 1/8" (i think) screen would have proved useless. So I cut a piece of window screen from a roll, poured the DE in, wrapped it like a sack, and shook it around for a while. did 3 sifts. Nothing was very chunky in the bag.

I did about 5 hours of "dirt work" today.. sifting compost, perlite, DE.. and mixing soil/amendments

I ended up doing a mix of drainage materials. Sifted perlite thru the 1/8" - didn't get much but its chunky as fcuk. that made up about 1/8 of the drainage mix, and the the other 7/8 was about 50/50 rice hulls/sifted DE

Hoping for the best. will wet it tomorrow, and check the tilth.. got too dark.

Oh, but my pack of sour bubble came today!!!! 1 week from the boo!
-came with some femmed mystery mix.

 

[TACOE]

woops. double post.. I thought I hit the return key accidently

 

[heady blunts]

that's weird that your carquests didn't have it. were they just out of stock or something? glad you worked it out tho.

 

[TACOE]

seems like all of the auto parts places up here (tried VIP and autozone too) use that clay stuff.

The last carquest guy (pfff after all that) said he could search all the stores in the state and nobody had it.

I am a little suspicious though because most had no idea what part I was asking for claiming that the part number was for some screw, or nut, or multiple different products. or they had no idea what DE was, or anything. about 70% of the people i spoke with seemed clueless

But hey.. I'm up here in vacationland.. if you need something.. chances are they don't have it in the state

 

[wisco61]

seems like all of the auto parts places up here (tried VIP and autozone too) use that clay stuff.

The last carquest guy (pfff after all that) said he could search all the stores in the state and nobody had it.

I am a little suspicious though because most had no idea what part I was asking for claiming that the part number was for some screw, or nut, or multiple different products. or they had no idea what DE was, or anything. about 70% of the people i spoke with seemed clueless

But hey.. I'm up here in vacationland.. if you need something.. chances are they don't have it in the state

First off, ask the guys about Oil Dry and they should know what you are talking about. If you can check out the bags they have, generally speaking heavier bag = more fines so you want the lightest bags they have.

The clay stuff is basically Turface. It will work fine for you if you build a sifter box with the aluminum window screen and sift it. I'm thinking that the Carquests and maybe other auto stores in some parts of the US get their stuff from Canada (clay) while the rest of the US gets it from Utah (DE) or whatever. Regardless, it will work for you its just has a bit more weight when dry than the DE stuff.

I also wanted to say something about the hardness of all this stuff. I vaguely recall some stuff from Geology about hardness, brittleness, cleavage and fracture. I need to read some Wiki to get my head around it again, but the important thing is that trying to crush it "correctly" is important. I'm not sure but I'd think crushing something between your fingertips is a more important indicator than if it snaps with pressure from a fingernail. I think the freeze test might also be a good test for some of the stresses this stuff will go thru when in the containers.

 

[TACOE]

Well, I did tell them what it was (floor dry/oil dry/oil absorbant).. they all just had the kitty litter that turns to mush.. according to them. They did mention that the clay stuff comes out of canada. Unfortunately the napa i went to only had 4 bags (one had a hole) and they all felt like about the same particle size.. Good point about the bag weight though, I didn't think about that. They were about the same though I'd say.

 

[mad librettist]

Turface is definitely softer and more brittle than the Napa 8822 calcined DE. Both scratch a fingernail.

I can easily crush both with a gerber multi-tool.


I'm wondering if we couldn't be decreasing peat and increasing compost when using calcined DE as 3/10ths of the mix, and using about 1/3rd the lime.
Say...

1 part peat
3 parts Napa 8822
4 parts compost
2 parts topsoil

or

2 parts peat
3 parts 8822
3 parts compost
2 parts topsoil

or (for strains that like things light)
1 part peat
4 parts 8822
3 parts compost
2 parts topsoil

 

[bonsai]

I'm wondering if we couldn't be decreasing peat and increasing compost when using calcined DE

I don't use any peat. Charcoal, DE, EWC, ground lavastone (inc powder for minerals), compost, and topsoil. Can't give you exact figures, I go by feel more than numbers, but would estimate about 1/4 to 1/3 DE. Works fine for various bonsai and a couple canna plants so far.