PBP users post your formula

[Guest]

The coco and hydroton mix your using is doing fine things in my cab.
I supplement with LKarma (1/4 stregth) and calmag (half dose), I switched to the ProSoil Bloom formula in flowering, love it at half stregth every watering.
I don't supplement with anything but occasionnaly I'll feed them a worm casating teas with molasses when I think they've had their fill of nutes for awhile.
This medium mix dries out quickfast so tweaking is simple, of course I got bored and got 2 bubblers working again...idle hands.

 

[Lucas]

> are you the lucas who made the hydro formula for GH nutes??

yes

but the truth is, it was not my idea, the credit belongs to my mentor, named pH

I took what pH learned about the 0-8-16 recipe working with ebb and flow, and applied it to Highgrades bubbler concept. Somebody at CW started reefering to the formula as the Lucas Formula, and the name stuck. It refers to 8ml Micro, plus 16ml Bloom as a one size fits all nutrient recipe for hydro.

Then GenHydro came out with the same mix in one bottle, called FloraNovaBloom... I have never met or worked with them, they just seem to have picked up on the chatter in the forums, and mixed their recipe to match the values of the 0-8-16 mix.

Now I use pH's spreadsheet to compare the different nutes people use..

here is a link to pH's website
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/

thanks for making me feel welcome at icmag too!

take care
Lucas

 

[all_is_1]

pHenomenal discussion everyone its great to see some people who aren't newbie's or idiot's or assholes around. I just came over from OG so I hope we can bring this kind of culture from OG and not the negative condescending one that was becoming so prevalent over there.

I was just curious as to what kind of yields you guys are getting. Is anyone getting the 1g/1w/60 days with PBP in hydro setups? My friend gets amazing results using PBP in a drip-to-waste setup using Soma NYC Diesal but he only gets about 1lb/1kw/75 days. Makes no sense to me since plant health is good.

I get about 1g/1kw/60 days using AN's Iguana Juice in Soil. I have found Iguana Juice to be superior to PBP when growing in soil. However, I have no experience using it in a hydro setup--AN claims that it will work well however in essentially any hydro setup--though I doubt it would do well in Aero setups because it is quite thick and viscous.

BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION REGARDING ORGANIC NUTRIENTS:

How do we as customers determine the level of mineralization in our commercially purchased organic nutrients? As I understand it, there are essentially 3 benefits of using a commercial formulation over making your own compost tea:

1. They are (usually) formulated for MJ growth by a plant PHD.
2. They are easily used vs. compost teas are kind of a pain in the ass and generally they are prefiltered for particle size.
3. IMPORTANT FOR ORGANIC HYDRO: They are more MINERALIZED!! I.E. the complex organic molecules that are in bat guano, kelp meal, etc. have been somewhat broken down alreadly by some kind of enzymatic/mechanical digestion process at the plant and thus they are much FASTER acting forms that ones own compost tea would be. For hydro setups, where the resovoir is changed weekly, the rate of mineralization is very important for plant growth.

I talked to one of AN's help guys on the phone and he gave me a great idea: In organic hydro, where the micro-fauna are so important, he said to fill a container with a lid full of hydroton, bio-balls (purchased at a pet store for keeping bacteria alive in fish tanks), lava rock, etc and poke holes in it so water can flow in and out. Then, put that container in your resovoir and it will act as a "home" for all of the beneficial microbes and thus increase the rate of availability of organic nutrients and help preven t invasive species like pythium from being able to take hold in your system. I haven't tried that yet since I haven't yet made the switch to hydro but sounds like a great idea to me. Peace everyone.

 

[cheetos]

does anybody have an opinion on the triflex? Im either gonna go with that or the pbp. Gonna go 250hps, dwc buckets, scrog. Any opinions on which way is better.

 

[all_is_1]

triflex is a mineral fertilizer, pbp is an organic (or almost-organic, depending on who you talk to) fertilizer, so if you're looking for tops in flavor and aroma and smoothness of smoke, go with pbp. If done right organics yield just as much as mineral nutrients anyway.

 

[cheetos]

flavor and smoothness are important to me. so yeah ill stick with the pbp. Besided everyone in this thread seems to love it. thanks for the insight.

 

[cheetos]

well i went and got the triflex anyway. I thought id give it a try for shits and giggles. And if it does suck that bad ill just replace it. Ill let ya all know how it goes.

 

[aeric]

Dr. Lynette Morgan says that in order to use "teas" (as in a guano, or worm castings tea) in hydro they have to be bubbled for a few days. After a few days one sees a froth that contains beneficial bacteria that will then make your tea more available to the plants. A bio-filter does the same, and IMO is essential when using any organics in hydro (more specifically- water culture). A biofilter, however depends on fairly stable pH for survival. Recirculating, large water volume, fulvic acid etc...can achieve this.

 

[Guest]

so can a fella get some specific opinions on botanicare's supplemental additives like silica blast, sweet organic carbohydrate, liquid karma, and blast off? i will say without even flushing GH, some of the smoothest smoke out there.. but I'm gonan give pbp a shot anyhow..

thanks for the great post btw 20kw dreams, i'd +k you up but i already done did it elsewhere it says

 

[all_is_1]

Hmmmm... I have to say that I wholeheartedly disagree that GH nutes provide a smooth smoke with or without flushing. . . Perhaps I'm more sensitive than most or you haven't tried truly organic sensi before. (I'm not trying to be condescending but I have smoked tons of GH herb and OG herb and personally have found there to be an enormous difference).

AERIC: Dr. Lynette Morgan knows her shit for SURE. Thanks for the quote. Did you find that on the "Growing edge" website? I've read some of her stuff but couldn't find all that much on OG hydro. When you say "bio-filter" do you mean a slow-sand filter like Overgrow detailed? Or something else? Also, does fulvic acid help keep pH stable? I've never heard of that personally but what do I know. . . Cervantes states clearly in his book that pH is actually MORE important in organic soil gardens since pH dictates the environment in which the beneficials propagate and live--probably just as true in hydro. Peace all.

 

[aeric]

all_is_1 : yeah she is the real deal...she's got a bunch of books I would like to check out soon. I got that from an article in the actual magazine from a year or so ago, don't know if it is on the site, will check.

By bio-filter I mean any filter that is biologically active, but a more typical one would use lava/pumice as the main media, like the process used in an aquaponics system or bio-buckets. The rockwool bio-filter on OG seemed IMO even better, but more nuanced/difficult to run.

 

[sunnyside]

The guy who owns Growing Edge,Tom Alexander, is the same guy who used to own Sinsemilla Tips. I'd say GE is pot friendly

 

[Guest]

not about to sit here and argue with you about my buds that you did not smoke, allis1 =) but thanks for addressing my questions.....bro......

 

[Lucas]

> so can a fella get some specific opinions on botanicare's supplemental additives like silica blast, sweet organic carbohydrate, liquid karma, and blast off?

I personally recommend AGAINST all additives until you are able to grow good medicine with a simple recipe. For example, 15ml/gal Pure Blend Pro plus 5ml per gal Cal Mag. If that mix does not work for you, there is something wrong with your system environment. Additives do nothing to correct for bad environment.

You cant imagine how many people with too warm water, go for hydroguard. Or how many people with spotted leaves from using too little nutrient, decide to buy Liquid Karma.

Sweet btw, is a Magnesium supplement. So is Cal Mag. Pure Blend Pro below EC 1.5 is guaranteed to cause numerous nutrient deficiencies, that can be fixed by using a stronger mix. Additives are just a way to make the mix stronger.

I know someone who claims they use Canna, but they use it at half of mfg recommended dosage. To solve all the problems caused by this weak nute mix, they add Kaching, Sweet, Rhyzotonic, and a bunch of other P and K boosters. They end up with nutrient overdoses of P and deficiencies of Mg and K, because they grow by "feel" and have no idea what they are actually feeding.

I agree completely that buds grown with GH nutes at proper dosage, do not need flushing.

Flushing is for folks who play around guessing at what to feed, and then have to wash it all out cause they have no idea whats going on with the plants nutrient levels.

just my opinion
Lucas

 

[Guest]

lucas.. you are the jesus of nutrients.. thank you so much (and it was your formula of course that I was using with GH..) thank you for taking the time to respond.. I appreciate it very much.

 

[all_is_1]

hmmmm. . . I find the comments regarding gh nutes and flushing fascinating. Definetly not trying to argue about anything--just trying to relate my personal experience. Most of the GH grown herb that I've smoked was grown by a grower using the the typical 1-1-1 mix, not the lucas formula. However, plant health was excellent the whole way through, he generally yields well over 1 gram/1 watt, and he flushes periodically (every 1-2weeks). What am I missing here? Do you guys just smoke all hydro all the time or does the different ratio of grow-micro-bloom in the "lucas" formula make a big difference in taste/smoke? (Seems unlikely but I suppose if the nutrient formula is closer to what the plant is actually using perhaps there is less buildup of nutrients in the plant. . . )

Lucas: I couldn't agree more about your assesment of additives in general--I have seen so much great herb grown with few or no additives that sometimes I feel silly because I still use them. One of my best crops ever was grown in coco/promix/perlite with just AN iguana juice.

Aeric: thanks for the reply--my feelings exactly. I was considering builiding a slow sand/rockwool filter but it seemed quite 'nuanced' to put it lightly without having anyone to physically show me how to use it.

Peace!

 

[Coco Nuts]

I personally recommend AGAINST all additives until you are able to grow good medicine with a simple recipe. For example, 15ml/gal Pure Blend Pro plus 5ml per gal Cal Mag. If that mix does not work for you, there is something wrong with your system environment.

Are you basing that +5ml CalMag off of R/O or Tap? Is your 15+5 the 'ratio' that should be futher diluted to necessary strength depending on the plant?

Sweet btw, is a Magnesium supplement. So is Cal Mag. Pure Blend Pro below EC 1.5 is guaranteed to cause numerous nutrient deficiencies, that can be fixed by using a stronger mix. Additives are just a way to make the mix stronger.

So 1.5 starting how long from seed (in general)? Btw, I feed only 1.1EC with Micro(1):Bloom(2) ratio and don't seem to have any deficiences.

Less is more, or is more more? Guess it depends on who you ask!

I agree completely that buds grown with GH nutes at proper dosage, do not need flushing.

I 'spose as long as the proper dosage includes tapering off. I find that about around day 40 (on a 63 day strain) the runoff EC starts to rise and rise. If I'm watering with 1.5 it can get as high as 2.3 coming out. This tells me it isn't eating all that.

 

[Lucas]

thanks for the considerate discussion

I dont know enough to say whether there are organic buds that taste better than well grown GH buds

I find indoor bud more resinous than outdoor, and I have yet to find what I consider to be an "organic" nute for hydro.. but I have smoked bud grown with Fox Grow Big and Pure Blend Pro that was not chemmy, as well as bud grown with GH that was not chemmy..

they were bubbler grows, at 2.0EC

I have had bud that tasted bad, grown with products and medium irrigation strategies, that accumulated too much N or P

I think those are the main culprits in chemmy tasting bud.. high N tastes very green and like hay, high P tastes metalic, and at really high levels, the medicine itself sends of sparks like a sparkler

> Most of the GH grown herb that I've smoked was grown by a grower using the the typical 1-1-1 mix, not the lucas formula.

I think the typical GH bloom mix is actually called 1-2-3, and it means 1 teaspoon of GH Flora Grow, plus 2 teaspoons of GH Flora Micro, plus 3 teaspoons of Bloom.. in mililiters thats 5g-10m-15b (grow-micro-bloom)

the NPK and Mg levels of that mix are:
191
106
251
76

by comparison, the Lucas Formula, uses 0g-8m-16b, the NPK Mg results are
130
106
183
73

not a big difference in the two mixes, but the GH factory version is higher in N and K

I dont think either value is too high for a bubbler

however, if someone was to use those mixes in pots of soil, handwatered, or soilless mix, it is likely that the EC could build up inside the medium, depending how often the plants are fed.. every watering, every other watering, every third watering..

> However, plant health was excellent the whole way through, he generally yields well over 1 gram/1 watt, and he flushes periodically (every 1-2weeks). What am I missing here?

the only place I see a potential for chemmy taste using GH is if the EC in the pot goes over 2.4

> Do you guys just smoke all hydro all the time

I do actually, yes
I find indoor superior to outdoor, and I think outdoor is much easier to grow organically..

or does the different ratio of grow-micro-bloom in the "lucas" formula make a big difference in taste/smoke?

I dont think the ratios are different enough to cause chemmy taste. I do think it is possible that handwatered pots can build up too much nutes, depending how they are watered...

if flushing is being used, its probably due to overfeeding in the first place

> I suppose if the nutrient formula is closer to what the plant is actually using perhaps there is less buildup of nutrients in the plant. . .

yes, I think it also has mainly to do with how high the EC gets. pots of medium build up nutes EC more than a DWC bubbler does

> Are you basing that +5ml CalMag off of R/O or Tap? Is your 15+5 the 'ratio' that should be futher diluted to necessary strength depending on the plant?

15pbpb +5cal mag is a spec tested by GrowGreen in RO water.. Yes I would use that ratio for addbacks, with the goal being to use a strong enough addback to produce an EC near 2.0

I call 15pbp 5 call mag GrowGreen's Formula, here are the NPK's
128
42
164
67

GG belongs to the gram a watt club, so it would seem the low P level in the mix is not a problem, though personally, I find it hard to keep the pH of PBP stable.. I think it would work better with Tap Water in the 2-300ppm range, cause that might need pH down, which would add P.. but I digress..

> If I'm watering with 1.5 it can get as high as 2.3 coming out. This tells me it isn't eating all that.

total agreement
and yes, near harvest it is not uncommon to allow the nutes levels in a bubbler or ebb flow, to drop from EC 2.0 down to as low as EC 1.0, by simply not using nutes additions during the last week, and letting the reservoir get diluted.. by topping up with non nuted water.

I agree plants dont seem to draw the EC down very fast in the last couple of weeks of bloom..

as a side note observation
most people who speak of flushing, are correctly feeling the needs of their plants, I do trust that people do know when their plants look unhappy..

however, its seems to me that most systems that need flushing, are allowing nutes to build up, due to the feeding frequency exceeding the plants needs

there is a trend in hydro nutes, that the ones meant for Water Culture, are stronger than the ones meant for soilless medium..

I think both DWC and soiless operate under the same effective EC levels in the root zone, but the medium based grows end up running higher in EC if the grower feeds the same formula that works in DWC.. in a way, DWC is constantly being flushed.. essentially keeping the EC from going above 2.0

Lucas Longwind Pontificatus

 

[sunnyside]

> Do you guys just smoke all hydro all the time

I do actually, yes
I find indoor superior to outdoor, and I think outdoor is much easier to grow organically..

Lucas Longwind Pontificatus

lucas my brother...you are missing out. Indoor organic soil bud is the finest experience in the world. The best hydro doesnt' compare...

 

[all_is_1]

Lucas: Your clear and concise responses are so refreshing--so few people online write well and I can't tell you how much more knowledge gets passed when people take the time to actually explain themselves CLEARLY.
I'm not a GH man myself, as you might have noticed, so I probably misspoke with the 1-1-1 ratio.
NOTE: What EC METER are you using? The Truncheon? I've heard such widely varying readings from different meters that it's almost irrelevant unless everyone is using the same brand. (I know EC is supposed to be standardized, unlike ppm's, but I just haven't found that to be true in practice.)
The fact that you guys are letting your EC get so low in the last week actually acts as a "flush"--I've read numerous different books that state that flushing with plain water IS NOT AS EFFECTIVE as flushing with MILD nutrient solution--i.e. a mild nutrient solution will effectively remove more built up nutrient from plant tissue than plain water. Also, I've heard numerous different people say that RO water doesn't buffer pH as well as tap water. I only started using RO water a few months ago and my current grow is all-organic soil so I can't say from personal experience, but is that the real deal? In my mind that is a major reason NOT to use RO water. Also, before I forget, my GH 1g/1w friend doesn't use RO water and I would definetly concede the point that the water, rather then the nutrients, might be the cause of his mediocre tasting buds.

sunnyside: I couldn't agree more. I have a 5kW organic soil grow right now for that very reason. I'll post pics tomorrow. Properly grown hydro (in my own experience) is very good, but properly grown organic soil is UNBELIEVABLE. I have found that taste, smoke and, yes I mean this, THE HIGH ITSELF are all so much better with organic soil. I tend to get headaches after coming down from hydro pot and I have not found the same to be true with soil grown herb. One of the possible reasons for this is that any non-organic fertilizer has a higher concentration of HEAVY (i.e. radioactive) metals in it then an organic fertilizer and cannabis is particularly adept at SUCKING up heavy metals and keeping them sequestered until you SMOKE it. According to Cervantes the Russians planted herb all around Chernobyl (nuclear disaster site) so as to suck up all the radioactive elements out of the soil. FUCKING CRAZY, ain't it?

Great discussion all keep it up. Sorry for being so detailed but I'm in the zone cause I just got done studying.