passive plant killer

[SCROG McDuck]

dmoose,

Like oo said, I support you starting a grow-log sooner than later. The idea that things need to be perfect before posting fails (in my oppinon) to take advantage of both the knowledge and boredom of the community. Get it up early, update often, and you might get lucky enough to have problems averted before they start.

In that vein: Do you know the wicking characteristics of your straight perlite? This will define your air gap and the timing and volume of your pulse feeds. If you leave the plant in the 2 gallon container with the wick into the sub-reservoir (without fussing with it for a while) how close to the surface are you feeling moisture? As far as I know, you are the first to try and run a straight perlite version of this wicking system... but they exist in hempies, right?

My first reaction is to question how effectively the bag will air prune, as the side walls of your containers are solid. As a side note D9 has hypothesized that the hole-y walls may be more valuable in terms of providing 02 to the root zone than any benificial effect from the pruning (or some combination of the two)... Back on track: If the bag is porous enough that the roots can grow through this into the reservoir... well, there's some discussion about the possible cons of that. At the very least, it will keep the Perlite in the bucket.

As for going with what you know: Why wouldn't you?

I jumped into the PPK before I knew about the nasty pipe. I just couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong in the RDWC world, so went to a super simple system... And I used the materials that were available to me to minimize expense, and it seems to be working out fine, or at least better than a total failure.

I was even thinking of running a single cell DWC (with float top off because I'm that lazy) in the garden, but couldn't get a rooted clone ready in my schedule.

Blah blah blah. I'd encourage you to hedge your bets. If the dmPPK dominates, then you know. If the perlite/fabric wick creates unexpected issues, then you know without it costing you everything. The couple posts I read suggest that you are focused on the medicinal aspects of the plant, and that you are taking care of people. With this kind of attitude, there is no reason to rush... just keep doing your best to find the best way to do your best.

IF, are you still running those 90+ Temps??

thought about hedging my bet with a DWC in the upcomeing verticle garden.. but the main reason PPK attracted me, initially, was not having to worry about rez temps and requirement for high o2 in there, too..

may still try it in one of the 6 gallon coolers I've
used for DWC.... 1 plant.. with Jacks... maybe, lazy SOB, valve feed... sitting on the cement floor.. dono?

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

I don't think so. But I haven't seen my thermometer for a couple of weeks. I think my camera has been a bad influence on it...

I do believe that the PPK is infallible.

I do get a little nervous around fabric wicks, as they can potentially change the solution stratification. I don't know enough about perlite as a media in this context, so I get a little nervous there. I'm guessing dmoose is planning on flipping in hempies, but I don't really know... Hempies are a pretty fool proof system. So while the perlite/fabric wick system runs, I'm less nervous if hempies are in the room too.

My garden has had retarded fluctuation in temp and humidity and nutrient program and pH levels and all the rest. The simplicity of coco and bottom irrigation with pulse top feed has withstood all of that without blinking. I have plenty of room to improve upon, and many more cycles ahead of me (god willing) for dialage and whatnot... but I think that if I can mishandle this system to the degree that I did, and still (hopefully) have adequate results, there must be something very nice in this system.

Crap ventilation.
Crap temperature moderation.
Crap humidity control.
Crap nutrient consistency.

Coco in media wick PPK with pulse:

 

[delta9nxs]

dmoose, it all looks workable in that i think you can grow in it. but you will not be getting the o2 and root pruning you get with some sidewall drilling. but perlite is an extremely "airy" medium and it might not make much difference.

one thing i see in the first photo is your wick appears to be laying flat on the floor of your container. if so it needs to extend at least 1.5" up into the medium in order to drain the pwt.

because perlite is so "dry" you may find top watering to be especially important here.

good luck!

IF, that is the distance i can't get decent focus. that's the distance i would like to shoot the most, i think.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

My little point-and-shoot has a macro setting. When I push the button down halfway and get a happy beep, that is the distance that it likes to focus on. My lens is probably about three inches away.

(When I open it in the stock editor, the amount of detail that's actually captured is pretty impressive. If I took the time to learn how to use the editor, and and the picture is in focus, I can actually get right up on the trichs with clearly visible stalks and heads.)

 

[jjfoo]

I think it is a misconception that DWC needs 'hi' O2. Rather it needs O2. Get a oxygen meter and measure your water, then bubble it. It will not change much...

What I have learned from fatman and other aquarium dudes is that the thing you need is flowing water. Even a little O2 will be ok, but when there are spots in the root ball where no water moves all the O2 in the world wont help because it will have a hard time getting to where it is needed and you will get anaerobic condidtions in some places and the O2 may be at saturation levels in other places.

I don't agree with everything in the biobuckets camp, but some of those guys use no airpumps and have massive water movement and have great results.

I've also heard about not using airstons but have big bulbles than can move roots better to flush out stagnant water.

My whole point is bubles may be simply moving water more than airating water. Until it is measured, assumptions shouldn't be made. Most people simply believe that airstones aerate water and will not believe otherwise, some people will measure it and possibly have a new mental model of how things work in DWC.

 

[jjfoo]

fulvic acid

fulvic acid

anyone have any experience with using fulvic acid in a hydroponic garden?

I like the idea of using peters stuff only the whole way through, but I am working with someone who really believes something like madfarmer's NUTS is really helpfull in quality of bud. He comes from the school of follow the manufacturers chart. I think these charts are marketing tools, but sometimes wonder about some of the additives and what they actual would do.

after reading up on the different things you can add fulvic acid seems like it stands out as something to investigate, but I'm wondering if it has benefits in hydroponics (coco with peters)

 

[dmoose]

I have 2 flower rooms that will eventually be spaced 4 weeks apart to spread out the workload (harvesting/trimming). It has not worked out like that because I keep changing the rooms to improve harvests. Little did I know, all I had to do was remove a few small peices of hose. I have successfully eliminated all media from my Garden except air/water to eliminate most bugs. I have been growing large bushes/trees from clone to harvest in 2" neoprene disks/netpots via dwc, rdwc, aero, and several combinations, usually in 1-ish Gal individual containers on DIY recirc tables w/res below. My goal remains unchanged... KISS... and in my eyes, nothing would be simpler than an auto water/feed Osmocote+ PPK. With the short containers I use, and the large plants I seek, eliminating the PWT in the container seems the better route over Hempy alone. Dont recall if mistress or c9 tested the diff media PWT's, but I beleive coco and perlite were very similar in wicking (7 inches) and PWT properties.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

anyone have any experience with using fulvic acid in a hydroponic garden?

I ran Liquid Karma before switching over to Jacks. Don't know if it was important or not, as I really don't understand it. It was something that I was just supposed to do. (By which I mean, it had something to do with nutrient availablity, but don't remember what. I know *mistress* talks about it somewhere with knoweldge, but can't contextualize the memory with a link. Sorry.)

Know that Liquid Karma left a residue, had solids contained in it, and can clog plumbing if you let things dry out. I've thought of possibly introducing via hand watering in future grows... but I would try and figure out why first. Keep me updated by PM if it seems to insignificant for the masses...

Dont recall if mistress or c9 tested the diff media PWT's, but I beleive coco and perlite were very similar in wicking (7 inches) and PWT properties.

Sounds like you're on the right track then.

eliminating the PWT in the container seems the better route over Hempy alone

From the perspective of systematic stability, a linked PPK system has the capacity to maintain uniform media conditions. While many speak of the benefits of the wet/dry cycle, I personally think that this is secondary to the water retention qualities of their media--that is, in the absence of the dry cycle, the roots would never get 02. The fast RDWC systems, while far more technologically demanding than the PPK also maintain a uniformity in root zone conditions to good results without the wet/dry cycle. Having to simply mix a batch of (hopefully decent quality, stable) nutes and top off your bulk res takes out the element of human error and judgment. Not that attention and judgment should be thrown away... just that it helps eliminate incidents and accidents (and hints and allegations).

PPKs are good. And simple. And easy. And resilient. And flexible. And cheap(ish).

I like them.

 

[Carl Carlson]

anyone have any experience with using fulvic acid in a hydroponic garden?

What is the point in a completely synthetic-fed garden? You're not feeding a soil food web.

If I'm wrong about this, someone please correct it.

 

[dmoose]

dmoose, it all looks workable in that i think you can grow in it. but you will not be getting the o2 and root pruning you get with some sidewall drilling. but perlite is an extremely "airy" medium and it might not make much difference.

one thing i see in the first photo is your wick appears to be laying flat on the floor of your container. if so it needs to extend at least 1.5" up into the medium in order to drain the pwt.

because perlite is so "dry" you may find top watering to be especially important here.

The wick is 16" long (8" above/below) coming up through the center hole and split upward toward each top corner, then downward toward the center again. I cut 1/2 the roots so they only touch the wick bottom center after transplant. I am hoping the addition of bubbles in res will force air through the perlite to assist O2 to the roots. When I stuck a dowel down the top bucket, I get the bottom 3 inches of water/perlite sticking to the dowel. The finger test shows dampness but not wet about 1 inch below surface, and top dry. The top bucket is 7.5" with a 2" lip, so it only takes up 5.5" of the 13" lower bucket. I should be able to find equilibrium between PWT and O2 upflow by adjusting the airgap. I realize I am making alot of asumptions in regards to the systematic stability (Good One IF) in the media bucket, and how the forced O2, wick, PWT, airgap and Perlite will play out. But, I have also been bored, and this may be what I need to keep my mind occupied. I just hope the body can keep up!

Am I forgetting anything? I have been preoccupied going through my memmory for experiments that did not give results I expected, to figure out if any were skewed by the ngw tubing.

oo - the way the holes on the media bucket are arranged, I can just lift, turn, and set ontop of the lower bucket which leaves a gap at the corners to reach in and test the res. I can also pull res water to pour through the media without any spillage.

 

[*mistress*]

humates...

humates...

humates = organic mineral deposits. humic acid = larger, less charges particles. fulvic acid = small, highly charged particles...

humates contain s, n, p, & metals ca, mn, zn, & cu... metals/heavy-metals some are more difficult to dissolve than others... humates help coat the metals so that they are ready & available..are both chelates and catalysts.
..

gh fnb contains humic acid. see label.. there are otheres

ph is still major variable of solubility of specific elements... some may require feeding separately...

fwiw, 'hydroponics' = gardening w/out soil, or soil-less culture, or water (culture)+soluble nutrients...

hope this helps

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Yeah.

See.

I knew she knew shit.

Thanks *mistress*.

 

[delta9nxs]

The wick is 16" long (8" above/below) coming up through the center hole and split upward toward each top corner, then downward toward the center again. I cut 1/2 the roots so they only touch the wick bottom center after transplant. I am hoping the addition of bubbles in res will force air through the perlite to assist O2 to the roots. When I stuck a dowel down the top bucket, I get the bottom 3 inches of water/perlite sticking to the dowel. The finger test shows dampness but not wet about 1 inch below surface, and top dry. The top bucket is 7.5" with a 2" lip, so it only takes up 5.5" of the 13" lower bucket. I should be able to find equilibrium between PWT and O2 upflow by adjusting the airgap. I realize I am making alot of asumptions in regards to the systematic stability (Good One IF) in the media bucket, and how the forced O2, wick, PWT, airgap and Perlite will play out. But, I have also been bored, and this may be what I need to keep my mind occupied. I just hope the body can keep up!

Am I forgetting anything? I have been preoccupied going through my memmory for experiments that did not give results I expected, to figure out if any were skewed by the ngw tubing.

oo - the way the holes on the media bucket are arranged, I can just lift, turn, and set ontop of the lower bucket which leaves a gap at the corners to reach in and test the res. I can also pull res water to pour through the media without any spillage.

sounds like the wick is fine. i couldn't see it but wanted to make sure.

it will be interesting to see what the air pump does.

 

[delta9nxs]

“I think it is a misconception that DWC needs 'hi' O2. Rather it needs O2. Get a oxygen meter and measure your water, then bubble it. It will not change much...”

hi, jjfoo, yes, no matter what you do to it, you cannot force the dissolved o2 level in water much above 8-9 mg/l using ambient air. Fortunately plants don't need that much. In aquaculture they can achieve dissolved o2 levels of 24+ mg/l or greater by injecting pure o2 using a “speece” cone or a U-tube.

“What I have learned from fatman and other aquarium dudes is that the thing you need is flowing water. Even a little O2 will be ok, but when there are spots in the root ball where no water moves all the O2 in the world wont help because it will have a hard time getting to where it is needed and you will get anaerobic condidtions in some places and the O2 may be at saturation levels in other places.

I don't agree with everything in the biobuckets camp, but some of those guys use no airpumps and have massive water movement and have great results.”

yes, dead spots around roots cause most dwc and bio bucket failures, not overall lack of o2. I ran bio-buckets for a while and achieved 23 volumes per hour through each bucket and used a different plumbing scheme. I grew some nice plants but none better than what i'm growing right now with an entirely different approach to o2 supply.

“I've also heard about not using airstons but have big bulbles than can move roots better to flush out stagnant water.

My whole point is bubles may be simply moving water more than airating water. Until it is measured, assumptions shouldn't be made. Most people simply believe that airstones aerate water and will not believe otherwise, some people will measure it and possibly have a new mental model of how things work in DWC.”

bubbles do not aerate very much themselves while making their way up to the atmosphere. They are really just pumps moving water. The big o2 pick up occurs at the air/water interface. So, a pump moving water to break the surface tension can be just as effective as an air stone.

Here is a diagram of an alternate bio-bucket plumbing scheme that eliminates the possibility of a “dead” spot.

 

[delta9nxs]

...

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

D9,

Is that .doc file too large to repost without having to launch an external program?

Curious about the design... but lazy with the external apps.

 

[delta9nxs]

D9,

Is that .doc file too large to repost without having to launch an external program?

Curious about the design... but lazy with the external apps.

i don't think so, i'll try a different format later.

meanwhile, here is the latest installment in the "bud shot" series.

bud cake, anyone?

 

[dmoose]

Mmmmmmmm! Perfect, I like alot of Frosting on my cake! Got any "Ice" cream?

 

[jjfoo]

d9,

I am interested in DWC because it seems simple to just drain and not have to mess with the planting media.

I'm wondering how many amps I'll need to pull to move the water enough. Water is heavy and I assume large pumps would be needed in a system with say 16 5 gal buckets... I really have no idea though.

 

[jjfoo]

d9,

why did you choose to have the water flow up and now down in your dwc plan?

I was speculating that this would help the roots stay out of the bottom hole. Was this part of your design?


edit:

I assume you did the on purpose. I like the way your pump lifts the water in. I was thinking of having a top sprinkler to expose the water to fresh air for gas exchange, maybe this isn't needed, your design seems like the water is sealed in. Do you have the main res open to fresh air or sealed?

I was actually thinking I could use some of my ppk buckets at a high level of water and keep the pulse water on. I basically want to run 4 dwc next to 4 ppk (hopefully make a thread so I can learn from others). I'd like to get a simple dwc, but I don't want to compromise. I'd like to see well done dwc vs ppk