passive plant killer

[*mistress*]

Another question peeps, so if orchid bark and pumice are good for rooting, would coco chips/pumice be about the same? And why pumice and not something else?
You guys rock!

yes. though coco holds more water than bark.
smaller bark for clones, larger pieces after transplanting into large container.
maybe 50/50-30/70 coco/pumice mix.

pumice is essentially bigger perlite. they can also be mixed together.
w/ pores like lava, w/out sediment build-up of lava.
up to 3/4" rocks that replace hydroton, lava, etc...
no compaction, like small perlite can do become.

can also be used @ 100% if watering daily-every 2 days. inert, excellent drainage. > coins...

good to surround plant in new container after transplanting... permits large & prfuse roots growth - unrestricted by densely packed media...

look into medias used by orchid growers... they like lots of drainage; as seems to be what some plants prefer... as opposed to densely packed substrate w/ >aeration...

chemical and physical characteristics of pumice as a growing medium
http://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf?booknrarnr=401_9

Pumice is a volcanic rock imported from Iceland for Dutch horticultural use. It is a natural product and available in big quantities. Pumice is used as substrate for fruit vegetables (tomato, cucumber, pepper) as wel for cut flowers. The interest in growing plants in pumice is increasing, because it requires relatively low investments and is easily applicable in existing growing systems. Pumice can be used for many years, so it results in little substrate waste. These factors represent minimal annual expenses. In addition, pumice is friendly to the environment, because no harmful production processes are involved.

enjoy your garden!

 

[Hazey the clown]

Once again thanks!!!!!
And I will have to take another look at the drawings/schematics, as that was the main reason I joined and started posting was to see some of the pictures up. I admit I havn't gone through most of them, so need to.
Is Pumice dusty like Perlite when dry? Do you re-use it? I know... more questions. lol
what about ph? The turface sounds interesting at 6.2, which do you prefer and why? (pumice/turface/perlite)
I promise to do more research before asking any more stupid questions. lol I like people's opinions, included with the "facts".
Blue Dream....... my favorite

 

[Dr. Tingles]

Thank You!

Thank You!

Just Chiming in to say thanks for all the info. I've read through the thread and followed several of the links. I found you, D9, through a link in mistress' thread concerning her imaginary "wicked garden". So, thanks to you and to mistress as well, should she read this. I've been imagining a garden myself and your generous contribution of ideas has taken my fantasy into heretofore unexplored realms. I look forward to the upcoming installments of this journal.

Peace,
Dr.T

 

[delta9nxs]

hello, dr. tingles! welcome aboard!

sorry i haven't updated earlier but i haven't been feeling well. i'll be going in the hospital tomorrow for a little procedure. i should be feeling better immediately afterwards.

ppk#1 has been in flower a full week as of friday and is looking good.

ppk#2 was put in flower friday. it went in at 32", which is more normal for one of these plants. the only difference in treatment was that #2 was top watered every time.

all in veg are doing well. no spotting or discoloration.

ppk#9 went into veg friday. it's medium consist of 40/40/20 turface, perlite, and coco. a beautiful mix.

well, that's it for now. i'll be back wednesday or thursday. later, d9

 

[delta9nxs]

i'm finally feeling well enough to post, it's been a long couple of weeks.

this is primarily about ppk#1, in 100% turface. the sickly little clone that is now 2.5 weeks into flower. except for the first 2 weeks it has only been top watered 1 time with ro water. there have been no res changes and no liquid has been removed. all water and nutrients were added directly to the res. ph is always between 6.0 and 6.5 on all ppk's, regardless of growth stage. i've maintained res tds between 750-950 ppm at .5. it is using approx. 3/4 gal per day now. that's a yardstick in the photo showing just above 37".

while it is clear at this time that ppk #1 is a healthy, fast growing plant, other plants that have had all water and nutrients added through the medium are larger for their age. it will take the cold, hard, statistics of yield to indicate which method is more beneficial.

one thing is certain, though, and that is the ppk's are growing beautiful plants. no spots, discoloration, or other signs of deficiency. this is seemingly without regard to medium.

what i am seeing are morphological changes, possibly due to different air/water ratios of the various substrates.

in addition to the ppk#1 photo, i'll include 2 shots of a 4.5 week plant in veg. it is turning into a little monster. the first shot shows the plant at 22", unpruned, yet still short and bushy. the second shot is to show how thick the growth is. it's medium is 90/10 turface/coco. it has been top watered as necessary to top off the res.

another thing that some might find interesting is that, although i said i was going to do res change outs to some for comparsion, i have not as yet done any. i've been taking a "wait and see" approach and so far haven't seen the need.

 

[*mistress*]

good update!

top water - bottom -water - top water seems to do well w/ passive/wick methods, where there is a res below.
the capillary action has its limitations. can only rise so much.

nice 4-wk girl you have... getting there... little more for the full basket.
do you stake, train, or let grow freely?

enjoy your garden!

 

[delta9nxs]

hi, mistress!

the ppk#1 is pruned using the 6 main branch method as described by "lucas". i've been doing that to all my plants for a while to keep them within the "sweet spot" of the lights.

the plant pictured immediately above is unpruned as it looks like it might stay within range of the lights without trimming.

i usually have to stake all plants in the 4th week. i do this to keeps buds up in the light, of course, but also to reduce the plants footprint. the flower room is only 6.5' x 12'. there is no way i could get nine plants in the space otherwise. another reason for perpetual harvest, one in and one out every week.

the photos are just to let some people who may not have any turface experience see what kind of clones 100% turface and a wick cloner makes.

later on, d9

 

[delta9nxs]

i got to thinking about my last post showing the clones and realized that if someone new were reading it they probably wouldn't understand exactly how those clones got to the point you see.

the photo of the single clone being held up is of a 3 week old cutting. 100% turface medium and flora nova bloom at around 250 ppm at .5. the liquid in the wick cloner has never been changed, aerated, or recirculated in any way. you could therefore describe the reservoir as "stagnant". the containers fit together so tightly that almost no fresh air is reaching the bottom chamber.

yet, i have snow white, 8" water type roots in the bottom. by water type i mean the "ladder" structure that you get in a dwc or bio-bucket setups.

how does the plant stay alive and apparently flourish?

because the "air" type roots in the upper chamber are picking up enough o2 for the entire plant.

same thing is occurring in the full size ppk's. ppk #1 is 10 total weeks old now with 3 weeks in flower. it is flawless. it too has never been aerated,
recirculated, or changed in any way.

i believe it has to do with way the plant is "trained".

for example, if you grow a plant in heavily aerated dwc, the plant adapts it's roots for the conditions that are going to allow it to survive. in the case of dwc this means a whole lot of "water" type roots and very few air type roots. this works great as long as you don't have a pump or electrical failure and can grow some massive plants. witness "jamesgang", the monsterman, on gc. he grew the biggest dwc plants i've ever seen. 8' in diameter balls of buds.

in non-circulating systems the grower has made the decision to control root growth in such a way as to "force" the plant to develop a disproportionately large amount of air roots and a restricted quantity of water roots.

the problems that can occur in non-circulating systems mostly stem from allowing reservoir levels to fall too much for too long, and then filling them all the way again. recent research indicates that it takes as little as 12 hours for a plant to start growing air roots in the vacated space. you then top off the res and drown the new air roots. non-circulating greenhouse vegetable growers suggest that you do not let the level fall more than 2 cm.

this same cycle occurs with most hand watered container plants to some degree, depending on how long its takes the combined evaporation and transpiration to eliminate the perched water table, letting the "air" roots in that vicinity dry out and recover slightly before the next attempted murder occurs.

the coco heads growing in 100% coco are not allowing the pwt to even occur by carefully controlling the amount of water being used. i still haven't figured out how they "know" when and how much to water. it's probably a combination of their 3rd eye and the digital scales their fingers have mutated into. the ppk does not allow a pwt to exist.

another thing i want to make clear is no h2o2 is being used. i started using it initially but stopped altogether about six weeks ago.

lastly, i want to reiterate the fact that absolutely no ph adjusters have been used in this effort.

nutrient schedule in veg is 750 ppm fnb at .5, 100 ppm yara viva brand calcium nitrate, and 50 ppm rite-aid magnesium sulfate. i had intended to drop the calcium nitrate and use calcium chloride instead during flower but then i realized that the res still contained some calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate at the flip so i've been topping with 950 ppm flora nova bloom only. looks great so far.

well, that's all, folks! later on

 

[*mistress*]

excellent tech.
fundamentals of passive hydro.

love those thick, stem-like, top air roots

enjoy your garden!

 

[cactusjack]

Delta9 – Glad to see you back among the living! Too many days without your info packed posts and I start going through withdrawals.

It looks like the PPK is living up to expectations and then some, so thanks to your lead I’m about to jump into the PPK pool. I started clones yesterday and will move them into prototype PPKs when they are ready. Operating principals will be similar to your PPK except that I’m adding a float valve in the bottom reservoir to maintain constant solution level using RO water. I’ll also be dropping perlite and go back to Turface (what the heck am I going to do with all this perlite?)

I’ll be building two units. My control will use RO makup with separate nute addition similar to your approach. In the other I plan on including nutes in the makeup water using one concentration throughout flowering. Aim is to simplify maintenance. Water, and nutes will feed automatically without pH maintenance. Trimming and training will be my only tasks.

Finally, congrats on your beautiful plants. Those of us who have been growing for a few years know that its not always as easy as you make it look!

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, cactus! i was worried you had sailed off the edge or something. nice to have you back.

i have found the best ratio of coco to use with turface is 10%. i know it doesn't sound like much coco, but it radically increases capillary rise without causing any type of hydraulic slowdown. it produces compact, thick, bushy plants. the atami b'cuzz brand works the best for me. it's more expensive but you won't have any problems with it. i found that it is taken from more inland sites so doesn't have as much salt as some. it is already pre-treated for potassium, calcium, and magnesium to satisfy cocos cec. after mixing with turface i further give it a good pre-soak using the veg mix described above. using the small amount of coco definitely causes beneficial morphological changes. i strongly recommend that ratio.

using my design or something close where the medium extends down into the res and turface/coco at 90/10 %, i don't think you need the wick material at all. make sure you maintain that air gap you showed in your drawing between the upper chamber and the res and you will have no pwt.

you know how my sump pipe that extends down into the res is shown with a drilled out pvc cap and then lined by the wick material. all i'm doing now is eliminating the cap and putting fiberglass window screen over the pipe end that remains. the sump still extends about 3.5" into the res.

the larger plants are using more water than i thought they would. the largest ones are using 3/4 gal or more a day, so your float valve will buy you more time away.

the plants are gonna grow no matter what in these things, but i've found a small top watering just to moisten the medium to be beneficial. i then finish topping the res through the access hole using a walmart oil funnel. i can completely feed a plant in less than 30 sec using this approach.

this is #11 that got the first screen bottom, but i made other small changes.

my standpipe overflow is shown as a 1/2" pvc pipe in the photos, but i have since changed that to 3/4" so i can stand a meter up in the end. i don't know why i didn't think of it originally. duh!

also the sump pipe has been changed to 1 1/2" from 1 1/4" just to make tooling easier. the 1 7/8" hole saw makes a hole that fits the 1 1/2" pipe tighter than the 1 1/2" saw fits the 1 1/4" pipe. i hope that makes sense.

the combination of 90/10 turface/coco, flora nova bloom, and the calcium nitrate/ magnesium sulfate is magic. the best looking plants i've ever grown.
i should mention that this is all with ro water. no ph adjusters! i'm now doing everything with the tds meter alone.

i'm getting no salt build up in either the medium or the res. even though the ppk's are not connected, i get 800-900 ppm at around 6.2-6.4 ph in all of them regardless of growth stage.

well, later for now, ive got to go and (groan) eat another thanksgiving dinner. d9

 

[bostrom155]

Hey Delta
GREAT Info as always. I went around to a few home depots to look for turface and no one had it. I get my perlite from a local nursrey. i been buying a shitload of 4 CF bags and she ran out, i need perlite and i have to wait till wednesday. so tried looking for turface. oh well wed im getting 2 bags. i cant wait till she asks what im doing with the50 or 60 CF ive bought so far. anyway shit sorry im on Permafrost and it makes me ramble.
Got a Q for ya. I had some plants in 2L for about a month, then went to 5g buckets. veg in the buckets another month. then flowered they are looking good. How long did you veg your trees once they hit the "5 Gal" pot? thanks man

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, bostrom!

you won't find turface brand at the retail stores. the same shit is sold as "schultz" aquatic potting soil. i think they are 10 lb bags for around 8 bucks. 50 lb bags of turface go for around 10 bucks. the only difference i can tell is that the aquatic potting soil has been pre-screened and pre-washed as it is intended for use in planted aquaria.

i screened all mine through a regular mesh aluminum window screen to remove fines and washed it thoroughly. you lose about 30% of your original volume by screening but it is really worth it as the pore space goes up radically. i haven't bought any in years. it is truly infinitely reusable.

http://www.profileproducts.com/en/sports_fields/category/item/37 should provide links to sellers in your neighborhood.

it is sold by turf and landscape suppliers.

the mvp product is the one you want.

i told them i was working it into my flower and vegetable beds as a substitute for perlite. you know how that pesky perlite has a tendency to float away when you water your tomatoes.

go to the gardening sites online and you will find a lot of people using it for various plants. i found it by reading gov and edu sites where it is used a lot by researchers.

i move my plants direct from the wick cloners to 5 gal buckets and then give them 7 weeks before flower. i like the long veg because the plants change as you get past about 5 weeks. it's like they know flowering is getting near. bud sites at the ends of the branches start getting closer together and thickening up. this is occurring under the romantic gaze of a 1k hps hortilux running 24/7, so i feel that it is more of a maturing phenomena than anything else.

ppk #5 was planted in 70/30 perlite/coco. it is now 6 weeks old and will be going into flower next week. it is a large, almost perfect plant. it does use quite a bit more water than the other plants did at the same stage. i don't think this extra consumption is due to increased transpiration, however, but rather greater evaporation due to the nature of the medium. if you do use perlite amend it with something that has a decent cec. the buffering capabilities of the amending agent will help to reduce the tip burn so common in 100% perlite and reduce the rate of evap.

Well, nice hearing from you again, later on

 

[*mistress*]

Hey Delta
GREAT Info as always. I went around to a few home depots to look for turface and no one had it. I get my perlite from a local nursrey. i been buying a shitload of 4 CF bags and she ran out, i need perlite and i have to wait till wednesday. so tried looking for turface. oh well wed im getting 2 bags. i cant wait till she asks what im doing with the50 or 60 CF ive bought so far. anyway shit sorry im on Permafrost and it makes me ramble.
Got a Q for ya. I had some plants in 2L for about a month, then went to 5g buckets. veg in the buckets another month. then flowered they are looking good. How long did you veg your trees once they hit the "5 Gal" pot? thanks man

pumice works well as a perlite substitute, or to replace perlite altogether. just bigger rocks; no sludge of hydroton or lava rocks...

drill many holes into 5 gal bucket.
veg until roots profusely grow out of bottom of 5 gal bucket.
or, until plant is 3 cubic feet, mass.
stem should be between nickel & quarter thickness...

if run 20/4-24/0, should take between 2-8 wks... depending on cultivar.

enjoy your garden!

 

[bostrom155]

Hey Delta,
I see that Wormway has free shipping till tonight. this will save me alot of money, so im ordering 2 big bags of perlite and a 40L bag of coco. Their is a JohnDeere store in town that might have turface, thank you for the link. Ill check that out monday.
I was worried about rootbound pots with the month of veg in the 5G buckets, but i quess im good then.
Thanks again Delta

 

[bostrom155]

Thank you Mistress, I'll check the pumice out. One of these days i'll figure out a final medium. I have soiless, hemps w/ perlite and now some coco plants. I have a 4x8 flower room now, expanding to another 3x4 in a week.

 

[bostrom155]

Couple of shots of the plant in question. This is permafrost 8 week veg, went into flower bout 2 weeks ago

 

[delta9nxs]

nice plant! what are the genetics? looks like it will be a good yielder.

 

[bostrom155]

Its called Permafrost, it was a clone from my buddy's brother grow in oregon. Yield is ok, not the biggest, but decent. Its probably some of the best smoke i ever had. it has a cool minty menthol taste. Very thought provoking and social, but your fucked up. I hear its a cross of trainwreck and ice princess.

 

[delta9nxs]

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