passive plant killer

[delta9nxs]

Hi, mistress, thanks for stopping by! You are one of the contributors to my effort. I've read your exploits. “one key of no run-off/never dumping res, is

addition of humates (humic acid). want solution to be chelated, buffered, & ph stable.”

I had thought of this and made the decision to use flora nova bloom. There is also some organic matter in the mix in the form of small root fibers and I intend to put a little worm poop tea on them more for innoculation than nutrient.

“always place a braids of the rope/wick a) directly under root mass; b) laterally; touching inner-walls of container; & c) below 2" line in container”

yes, in the last photo in post #2 I show my wick arrangement. Capillary mat cut into 1.25” strips and pushed down into the sump, leaving enough above to run flat along the bottom and extend 2.5” up the sidewall. As the sump is 1.25” id and is filled with turface it should be able to handle the demand. There should be no solid water in the upper chamber.

“the roots of the plants grow into/inter-twinethe ropes. this is how bottom-feeding is later facilitated & permits more oxygen to be present in the media.'

this was the mental flash that triggered most of this thinking. When I realized that individual roots don't drown if the plant as a whole is getting sufficient o2. The entire upper chamber should be nothing but air roots.

Well, thank you, and check on me to make sure i'm not screwing up. later

 

[cactusjack]

Well, thanks heaps Delta9! Your link to non-circulating systems has me heading off in several new directions now. Skimming patents, downloading ISHS reports, etc. An expanding line of research right under my nose that I never knew existed. Just when my thinking was starting to stagnate, new things to learn, new things to imagine, new things to try. Much fun in store for the weekend! Thanks again!

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, cactus, isn't that shit wild! wouldn't it be cool if all we had to do was stick a forestry cone in a trash can, fill it with nutes, and come back in 4 months. i'm already thinking of little clearings in the woods with the can buried to the rim. a gilley suit on the lid. prune the plant and stake down the branches. oh, yeah!

i got more links i just don't want to break them out all at once. put up anything interesting.

today marks the end of the first week of the first clone to go into a PPK. i'm happy to report that it is doing fine and has put on about 2 1/2" i have been top watering from it's own res using a baster to keep the medium wet. also checking ph and tds twice a day. no liquid has been removed. all the input was 5.6 ph @ above 950 ppm at the .5 conversion or ec 1.9. it was all introduced through the medium. ph checks after watering have been all 6.3-6.4. highest ppm reading was 974. have not added any new solution since wed. and the tds now reads 822. i don't think the plant took up all that difference. it is probably in the medium now to satisfy the cec. once the roots get a little farther down and i see a strong growth spurt i intend to stop top watering altogether except for special apps of chemicals or poop.

i also transplanted victim # 2 into a PPK today. this one i'm going to take all week to fill the res.

 

[delta9nxs]

eyeclops

eyeclops

Today is the 26th, victim #1 has been in the PPK for 8 days. As I mentioned yesterday it has put on some significant mass during the week. Now 9”. I was a little worried about the fnb trying to separate back into 2 parts like it is in the bottle since it is not being moved around. Also concerned about precipitation so I lifted out the inner module and had mrs. delta take a photo for me. No separation or precip noticed.

Tonight after watering ph was 6.4 and 796 @ .5, so it looks like we're getting some actual consumption of nutes. No roots have appeared from the sump. Water level in res is down about 3/8”. i'm going to put a clear cover over it to see if I am getting water movement through the medium.

Got an Eyeclops the other day. Amazing photos for a little piece of junk. It takes macros at 100x, 200x, and 400x. These shots are at 100x.

 

[*mistress*]

. I was a little worried about the fnb trying to separate back into 2 parts like it is in the bottle since it is not being moved around. Also concerned about precipitation so I lifted out the inner module and had mrs. delta take a photo for me. No separation or precip noticed.

Tonight after watering ph was 6.4 and 796 @ .5, so it looks like we're getting some actual consumption of nutes. No roots have appeared from the sump. Water level in res is down about 3/8”. i'm going to put a clear cover over it to see if I am getting water movement through the medium.

agitating container by hand daily will loosen particulates & also aerate the mix, if dont like to add h202.

water evaporates from these bottom-res containers too. cheapo soil moisture meter will give results of moisture level.

enjoy your garden!

 

[delta9nxs]

“agitating container by hand daily will loosen particulates & also aerate the mix, if dont like to add h202.”

actually, I was thinking about h2o2, at around 2 T per gal. Since I have an opening directly into the res I can add it without pouring it through the medium, avoiding diminishing the microherd. I would like your opinion on dose and frequency.

“water evaporates from these bottom-res containers too. cheapo soil moisture meter will give results of moisture level.”

I built this with controlling evaporation in mind. The foam pad is a very tight compressed fit and, while some evaporation will occur past it, I don't think it will be much. The access hole and the standpipe are capped when not in use, so I think most evap is going to occur through the medium.

The photo below is the same experiment 2 hrs after the first photo above. it's obvious that i'm getting some upward movement so i'm thinking of stopping the top watering soon, the moisture meter would let me monitor the conversion to bottom feed so i don't murder another plant.

Thanks for you input, please let me know about the h2o2. Later, d9

 

[*mistress*]

h202 @ 2 tsp/gal good. fed thru media should not hurt microherd that is aerobic (the good microbes).

@ that small of a dosage, every watering. & would still agitate solution. should see bubbles released.

why the hurricane glass around the plant? wont this restrict gas exchange (transpiration)?

dont even place hume dome over cuts; never a stand-alone plant.

enjoy your garden!

 

[delta9nxs]

hi, mistress!

hi, mistress!

thanks for the info! the glass is on there as a 2 hr experiment only. i was just trying to get an idea of how much moisture was moving upward. i was top watering 2 times per day but after seeing the water on the glass i'm going to go 1 time per day now until i see a growth spurt, then stop top watering.

today marks day 9 in the PPK.

thank you for your help!

d9

 

[delta9nxs]

today is the 28th. victim #1 has been in the PPK 10 days. now 10" and looking good. great branch growth and the stem is about the size of a pencil. close internodes. that's what vegging with a 1k hortilux hps does for you.

no liquid has been added since the 23rd. no liquid has been removed or changed. yesterday and today only top watered 1 time per day from it's own res. still no roots showing from the sump. water level down 3/4" from full. just about all of that water loss has been either by the plant or upward through the medium via evaporation. i feel like i could stop top watering now but probably will go on until i see some roots in the bottom. ph in res has risen to 6.5 and tds has gone back up to 799 @ .5. i have become aware that i have no way of checking ph and tds in the air root zone. i will have to work on that. as of today i have put 29.28 ml of flora nova bloom and 3.66 gals of water in the res. most of it is still there.

 

[*mistress*]

coco seems to hold more water than turface. 5+ days w/out watering... nice

passive hydro/wicks may not be good selection if like to water 1x+/day....

there was recent thread on watering daily... posted only need water every 3-4 days w/ wicks... media selection variable, along w/ container size important. bottom-feeding seems always+

turface holds 50/50? perfect perlite?

enjoy your garden!

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, mistress!

hey, mistress!

“coco seems to hold more water than turface. 5+ days w/out watering... nice “

yes, coco probably holds more water than just about any other popular cannabis medium. I'll put up a chart.

“passive hydro/wicks may not be good selection if like to water 1x+/day....

there was recent thread on watering daily... posted only need water every 3-4 days w/ wicks... media selection variable, along w/ container size important. bottom-feeding seems always+”

agree totally, that's why I intend to quit top watering when roots get to bottom.

“turface holds 50/50? perfect perlite?”

it's not quite 50/50, but close. You won't believe the root development. I'll post a photo when I de-pot the first stump.

Also, here is a brief article on maintaining a “controlled water table”, where the water level fluctuates between 2 fixed points or levels. I intend to do that here. Most of the reading i've done on this suggest that you can either let the level fall continuously without topping for short duration crops, or only let the level fall a certain amount as a means of controlling the type of root growth and avoid drowning the plant.

“Controlled water table” from http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/198893.html

OPTIMIZING THE WATER AND AIR RELATIONSHIP AND NUTRIENT CONCENTRATION IN A CONTROLLED WATER TABLE IRRIGATED CONTAINER GROWING MEDIUM * PROJECT DIRECTOR: Buxton, J. W. * PERFORMING ORGANIZATION
HORTICULTURE
UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY
LEXINGTON,KY 40546 * NON TECHNICAL SUMMARY: Maintaining optimum ranges of water and fresh air in a container growing medium during a crop production cycle. A container growing medium must supply optimum concentrations of all nutrients. Fluctuating water/air ratio in the growing medium will create a better root growing environment. Gradually changing the concentration of nutrients in the fertilizer solution. * OBJECTIVES:1. To study the effect of a fluctuating controlled water table (CWT) on growing medium air and water content and water potential and on the growth of container grown crops 2. To optimize individual element composition of nutrient solution for CWT irrigation. 3. To modify the CWT system for feasibility of use and acceptability by the commercial container production industry. * APPROACH:The CWT will be allowed to fluctuate between two levels in the trough to vary the water potential and the water/air ratio in the medium and to determine the effect on plant growth. The nutrient solution in the capillary mat will be monitored weekly to study the effect of plant maturity and distance from the nutrient supply trough on nutrients available to plants. Nutrient concentration will be adjusted to maximize growth. To improve the CWT concept, new bench designs, capillary mats, root barriers etc. will be evaluated.
*
The Water And Air Relationship in soil or soilless medium are critical to optimum plant growth. The relationship is particularly critical for plants grown in containers, especially short containers. After irrigation, short containers may quickly experience severe water stress because of low growing medium volume. If watered frequently, even the largest pores in the growing medium, after capillary draining, are filled with water for long periods; thus severely reducing the oxygen supply to the roots, required for respiration. Controlled Water Table Irrigation (CWT) Is An Automatically Irrigation System That Is Capable Of Maintaining Optimum Air And Water In A Container Growing Medium. Comparison to other systems: Container plants irrigated by an overhead irrigation system, initially after excess water drains out, have a perched water table at the bottom of the container. Subirrigation systems such as ebb and flow and traditional capillary mat systems have a perched water table immediately after irrigation. As water is loss through evapotranspiration, oxygen then replaces the water loss through evapotranspiration. The water potential and volume of water in the capillary mat is determined by the distance between the water table, within a trough on side of bench, and the bench top. Growing medium, in containers in contact with the capillary mat, remove water if the water potential of the medium is less than the water potential in the capillary mat. The water level in the trough is adjusted to optimum level and automatically maintained depending upon height of container and texture of growing medium. The water table may be lowered to reduce the water potential in the capillary mat; thus reducing the capability of the growing medium of removing water from the capillary mat.”

Most recommend not letting the level fall more than 2-3 cm before topping because as the levels fall the plant wants to grow air roots in the vacated space and if you let that get out of control and then raise the level you run the risk of suffocating roots.

This is another reason you want a larger diameter reservoir. A five gal bucket, if used for a res, at 5.5” holds 1.87 gal of liquid. These 10 gal tubs i'm using hold 3.66 gals at 5.5”. a difference of 1.79 gal. So the 5 gal bucket 1” down at 4.5” holds 1.53 gals making your replenish volume .26 gal. The 10 gal tub, under the same scenario, at 1” down holds 3.21 gals, a difference of .45 gal. More volume more time. I'm working on a passive, non pressurized auto topper that could be set to maintain res volume at a certain level between two points. It could be as large as you have floor space for.

later

 

[*mistress*]

nice post!...

ever tried soil moist, or soil moist mats? they also have have soil moist w/ myco & 7-7-7... also very water retentive. there is also a tree moist. the granules work well for cuts. the cornstarch, 'organic' type breaks down into slurry. the granules can be used & re-used...

the advanced water culture method you are applying is kiss^10... good tech on the water/air ratio & dif root growth variables...

enjoy your garden!

 

[delta9nxs]

more!

more!

hey mistress! no, i have no experience with "soil-moist", but now i will be looking at it, thanks to you.

here's another paper on "controlled water table" i'm posting a link as it's a 20 page pdf. the pertinent info is on pages 3,4,and 15. it is primarily about using water table height to control moisture content in the medium. also discusses nutrient levels as they apply to wicks. this gives you the opportunity to dial in the exact air/water ratio you desire. good stuff.

later, d9

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/ho/ho84/ho84.pdf

 

[delta9nxs]

"half ass is my way of life"

"half ass is my way of life"

quote from a cartoon character on adult swim.

Today is 10/2. the first clone has been in the PPK for 2 wks. It's now close to 12”. on the 30th I added water and nutrients which brings the total of water added to system to 4.16 gals and nutrients to 35 ml of flora nova bloom. No liquid has been allowed to escape and no change outs have occurred.

The ph and tds before topping was 6.6 @ 742 on a .5 meter. The topping solution was 10 ml per gal fnb with ¼ tsp calcium nitrate and ¼ tsp magnesium sulfate. This registered ph and tds 5.3 and 1562 respectively.

Flora nova bloom @ 8 ml per gallon is:

N P K Ca Mg

124-108-179-123-62

flora nova bloom @ 10 ml per gal is:

155-134-224-154-77

with the cal-nit and epsom it comes to

206-134-224-202-89

here is flora nova grow @ 8 ml for comparision:

220-55-262-126-47

and, mel franks recommendation for veg with intense light:

348-98-253-?-70

and, finally, ph imbalance's recommendation:

250-85-217-?-61

this solution was not added through the medium. It was added directly into the reservoir for several reasons. To avoid burning and to avoid large ph fluctuations in the root zone. The ph and tds after topping off the res was 6.2 @ 873.

I intend to maintain the level in the res between 4.5” and 5.5” in order to present the max amount of moisture to the medium. late in the grow I will allow the plant to consume the rest of the res.

the clone is right at 12” and looks great.

I prune by numbers. I take growth off starting at the medium and work upward. In the first series of cuts I make only one per day. I take off the first 6 branches, leave 6, and top between 6 and 7. I began on the 29th so I have 3 days of initial pruning left.

This is done to shape the plants architecture to take the maximum advantage of the lights. When they go into flower the foliage canopy is less than 30” in height and centered in the sweet spot. The lights are rarely adjusted. Also, I veg with the same light I use for flower, 1k hps hortilux. I feel this trains the plant to the light. Studies have indicated that the plant can adapt to a large extent to whatever source of light is presented to it.

The progressive pruning done on a daily basis rather than all at once prevents the plant from “stalling” due to shock. Done as early as possible the results are profound as the 6 branches race for dominance. I then further prune the 6 branches as each one reaches approx. 12” in length, taking off the first 3 branches of each main branch. Another 18 days of cuts. This keeps focusing the energy into the branch ends. Growth there is amazing. Tight internodes = tight buds.

The first is a plant just beginning the 7th week of veg showing the architecture of a pruned clone. If you are growing from seed there is a slightly different approach as the clones are showing alternate phylotaxy and seedlings are opposing.

The second photo is just to show the health of the clone after 2 wks.
Later on, d9

 

[*mistress*]

nicely structured cultivars... props on the stewardship of the garden & mechanics...

excellent progressive (constant) pruning method. do similar methods in imaginary garden... prune to 4-12 main leads, thin to strongest branches & shoots; eliminate all other growth & unnecessary fan leaves.

I take growth off starting at the medium and work upward. In the first series of cuts I make only one per day.

like training a bigger bonsai...

vegging under 1ks always+...

¼ tsp calcium nitrate

been considering mixing own nutes out of greenhouse grade salts.... so many different mixes can be made by adjusting the ratios...

with the cal-nit and epsom it comes to

206-134-224-202-89

interesting... see that a 1-0.5-1, or 'high-nitrogen with phosphate' feed is basically what you are running. in your case, that '1-0.5-1' translates into '206-134-224'...

w/ salts only, would be something like:
high nitrogen w/ phosphate

1:0.5:1 npk ratio

fertilizer in stock solution:
26 gallons/100 liters

potassium nitrate 6.5g
calcium nitrate 4.5g
ammonium nitrate 3.3g

this should give npk of 250:125:250:0:0

noticed that most of the ratio mixes do not combine heavy ca w/ heavy mg. in fact, most have either/or... you seem to have the 2:1 ratio on ca-mg... is this ratio altered during later stages of maturity?

seems easier to mix a variety of dif solutions using only chelated micronutrient mixes, fritted trace elements, and the stock calcium/potassium nitrates, epsom salts & chelated iron...

@ least comparable to the many bottles of hydro nutes that can accumulate...

sharing data on the mixing of greenhouse grade salts+...

enjoy your garden!

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, mistress

my topping volume is .47 of a gal if i hold the level between 4.5-5.5", which means adding to the existing 3.19 gal. i want to keep the tds in the res between 750-1000 ppm @.5 so i have to input a stronger solution. as it goes directly into the res it has no immediate effect on the plant. introducing 5.3 ph and 1500 ppm into the medium would cause radical swings.

flora nova bloom @ 8ml is lucas and will grow nice plants. most of the papers on non-circulating static systems i've read suggest using a one part nutrient throughout the grow. also, like you, i strongly believe in humics and fulvics. the leaves get that nice velvet texture. but fnb is a little short on nitrogen and cal-mag for some strains. i grow sweet tooth #4 and i have to supplement or suffer the consequences. some strains get along just fine on fnb @ 8ml.

by boosting the fnb to 10 ml i get a little more potassium, which some newer research indicates is needed in larger amounts than previously thought by nute manufacturers.

what i'm attempting with the cal-nit and epsom is to boost the numbers into something that looks more like a veg profile while still using the same base formula. at the onset of flower i can drop the cal-nit and switch to calcium chloride to reduce nitrogen. thereby using the same base nutrient formula throughout. it's part of the experiment.

i've been doing a lot of experiments with nutrients the last 8-9 months with a view towards mixing my own. but then i found Jack's professional water soluble salts designed for "continuous liquid feed" as they express it. a huge variety of mixes available at a very reasonable cost. i got a 25 lb bag of 15-16-17 and a 25 lb bag of 10-30-20 for under $100. it's very high quality and goes instantly into solution. it's used primarily by greenhouse people. it won't clog injectors. here is a link:

www.jacksprofessional.com/products.pdf

they say that their mixes can be used with each other to produce any mix you want.

the calcium nitrate is yara viva brand and i paid around $30 for a 50 lb bag. poof! into solution. it's 15.5-0-0-19.

i top watered victim #1 last night for the last time, i hope, we'll see.

 

[*mistress*]

thx for the link!

enjoy your garden!

 

[benandjerrys]

Thanks for sharing this. I have always wondered about using straight Turface. I was going to try it Hempy bucket style. However the wick system looks very easy to maintain.

I use it in my soil mix for bonsai plants. It helps produce a very good root system.

Cant wait to see how this turns out.

 

[delta9nxs]

Today is 10-9, exactly one week after I top watered victim #1 for the last time. 3 weeks after transplant as a stressed, discolored 6” clone. The first 7 pruning cuts have all been made. Before topping the meristem it was 14 ½”. It is now around 12”.

No liquid has been removed or changed. Although the reservoir level is down slightly, it still does not need another topping. Total water volume entered into the system is 4.6 gals. Flora nova bloom totals 39 ml. There is approx. 3.5 gals currently in the reservoir so total consumption to date is approx. 1.1 gals in a 3 week period.

Reservoir ph has been remarkably stable. Ranging from 6.0 to 6.6 with most readings 6.2-6.4. it is currently 6.2 @ 910 ppm on a .5 meter.

I have done a cursory examination of the medium (100% turface) and the surface is very dry. I carefully scraped away the top layer a little at a time and when I reached about 1 ½” I found a large volume of air type roots forming a uniform surface at the same depth at all points. These roots are much finer and more numerous than the air type roots in a frequently top watered container of perlite or turface. This indicates adaptation to a different set of conditions.

I have also taken a 3/8” dia. dry wooden dowel and pushed it to the bottom down the sidewall. I left it for 15 seconds and withdrew it. It showed no solid water table in the medium but was moist feeling for about the first 8” from the bottom. Progressively less as it approached the top.

Thus far no roots have shown at the bottom of the sump.

I think that, at this point, it is obvious the plant is getting moisture and nutrients from the reservoir and o2 from ambient air. And, it is obvious from the health of the plant that it has been getting these in the proper ratios. Whether or not it can continue to do so through all stages of growth is undetermined.

 

[*mistress*]

good empirical data sets.

the plant seems to be living off of water vapor & the 02 being released from the water in the sump & the 02 in the atmosphere.

got any pure coco around? or 50/50 coco/perlite?

would be interesting to compare same system (everything being same except medium) w/ coco as medium... for the water 3x-daily gardeners that may imply plant will topple over & die if not watered daily... or multiple times daily...

perhaps, could be that plants adapt so much to their environment & program, that roots demands those 1-3 times per day watering. & when pattern est. & discontinued, plants become unhappy...

another inquiry would be the different tastes & effects of fruit when grown favoring air, or water, or both root systems...

the humic acid seems to be 1 key; lets in what needs to be in & gh has some way to keep that ph in the ~5.8-6.5 range that is further kiss...

seems humic acid can be made, diy,...