passive plant killer

[*mistress*]

nice plant...
just about ready...
maybe a little wider before flowering...

removing inner growth & staking wouldnt hurt. maybe a few weak banches could be thinned to tops or removed as well. should be nice in a few wks either way


enjoy your garden!

 

[delta9nxs]

howdy! just thought i would do an update for the week.

yesterday the 70/30 perlite/coco plant in #5 went into 12/12 as a large 37-38" plant. large as in thick, bushy with a huge stem and branches. 7 weeks veg.

i built #12 today, 4 more to go.

#11 and #12 are being done with no synthetic wicking material at all. i eliminated the pvc cap on the sump and replaced it with regular fiberglass window screen. after playing with the coco a little bit i think the 90/10 turface/coco mix will wick just fine by itself.

i have the following media experiments going on:

#1-#4 100% turface
#5 70/30 perlite/coco
#6 90/10 turface/coco
#7 70/30 turface/coco with a quart of worm castings per 5 gal
#8 85/15 turface/coco with a pint of castings
#9-#10 40/40/20 perlite/turface/coco
#11-12 90/10 turface/coco no wicks

the plants are all growing well but i'm seeing some fascinating differences in growth and shape. each different mixture is producing a slightly different looking and structured plant. leaf size is varying. stem and branch size and structure vary. bushiness. internode spacing. all ever so slightly different. my favorite and the one i'm going to use for production is #6. it is producing the plant shape that i've been pruning radically to get. one of the biggest problems we face as indoor growers is keeping the plants out of or growing past the lights. this plant looks like it could achieve that without a lot of pruning yet produce well.

the first 2 photos show the original sump and wick and the second 2 show what i'm trying now.

 

[bostrom155]

Hey delta, so your going with #6 90/10 turface/coco. If i only had perlite and coco peat/fiber mix, what would be your recommended ratio in hempy buckets? Is the Isis from DP? I grow their Super Haze. The reviews for isis sound pretty good.
Mistress- thank you, i need to work on the inner pruning part, guess i get too lazy to pull off all the bottom growth, but ive been working on that. My goal is too reduce plant number and just veg longer.

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, bostrom! i really hesitate to recommend any kind of coco mix with a hempy as i have only used turface, perlite, and turface/perlite in them. hempy sounds like he's worked out a good perlite/coco mix. i think he said 15% coco. a little coco goes a long ways when used as an amendment. i didn't think the 90/10 turface/coco would be much different from straight turface. i was really wrong on that one. turface has a capillary rise of about 6-7 inches alone. with just 10% coco it's going almost all the way up the container, say 10-11 inches. but again i've not tried this mix in a hempy.

yeah, the isis is feminized from dp. supposed to be some strong shit but i have a word of warning on it. it is the stinkiest stuff i've ever grown. wasn't too bad until week 6, then started smelling to high heaven. they should have named it "rancid fart". ending week 8 now and i can smell it outside the house. i don't have a scrubber set up as all i've grown at this locale is swt#4. the sweet tooth is famous for low odor and i guess i got used to it. i run 2250cfm through a 1200 cu ft room into the attic and then have a huge powered roof vent/fan at the ridgeline about 25 ft off the ground. the predominate wind direction takes odors towards a neighbor who's 300 yards away and about 85 yrs old. but i will be less paranoid when i get the isis out. i ain't jokin' about the smell.

 

[*mistress*]

Hey delta, so your going with #6 90/10 turface/coco. If i only had perlite and coco peat/fiber mix, what would be your recommended ratio in hempy buckets? Is the Isis from DP? I grow their Super Haze. The reviews for isis sound pretty good.
Mistress- thank you, i need to work on the inner pruning part, guess i get too lazy to pull off all the bottom growth, but ive been working on that. My goal is too reduce plant number and just veg longer.

50/50 coco/perlite works well... or, 60/40 p/c...

dont have to pull off bottom growth, just pinch off growing tips of nodes closest to stem. let leaves remain.

enjoy your garden!

 

[delta9nxs]

Howdy! Time for “weekend update”!

I built ppk #13 couple of days ago. Timed it for the first time. It took almost exactly 40 min. with all tools and materials laid out in advance.

I put #6, the first 90/10 turface/coco plant, into 12/12 tonight. Remember I was thinking I might not have to do a radial prune to these? I was thinking it was growing out shorter but heavier? Well, it proved me wrong. It is a “heavier” plant, but it went in at 32”.

I did a radical thinning but i'm going to be fighting to keep it within the lights. I'll leave a couple of stem shots below. I will resume pruning immediately.

Something “happened” to this plant in the sense that it really went for it right from the beginning. It likes the medium. I mean “aggressive” growth.

I top watered it the whole time just enough to keep the medium moist but not wet. The rest went into the res directly. No change outs. It was fed 750 ppm flora nova bloom, 100 ppm calcium nitrate, and 50 ppm magnesium sulfate. It is currently consuming almost a gallon per day.

Saying that the medium is 90/10 turface /coco doesn't really tell the whole story. The turface is all used, over and over again, mostly with flora nova bloom. I did a quick test for minerals by taking one volume of the turface, adding 1.5 volumes ro water, capping and shaking for about an hour. Filtered some liquid through a coffee filter and got 387 ppm at .5. it is also full of small (very fine and less than 1/4”) root particle from previous grows.

I used to get all anal about super cleaning the turface before use until I read some of the articles from a guy who posted as delta9420 (no relation) on overgrow and gc. He also for a while had a site up called “leafreader.org” he was an expert container gardener who liked pot. He said that you always should have a little something organic in your “soilless” mix. The coco and root fiber apparently fit the bill. A touch of worm castings perhaps.

About the two turface/coco/ worm casting plants. They both look great and are growing fine. The 85/15 turface/coco with a pint of castings really looks good.

Ppk's #1-2 are consuming well over a gal per day, so it looks as if the device is capable of supplying enough volume to grow out a large plant. I'll be whacking #1 in 4 weeks. Budding up nicely.

Also, in the beginning of this experiment I decided to limit the amount of res level drop to 2 cm because that's what all the researchers recommend. Lately i've been letting the bigger plants go 3-4 cm with no ill affect.

#13 was also built with no cloth wick and window screen. The sump is filled with the same mix I grow in. #11-12 are growing fine with no synthetic wick material.

The isis is approaching 10 weeks and is still not ready to whack. The buds just keep getting fatter and very few brown pistils. The ends are still growing. I'm not touching it till it's done. Looks wicked.

Later on, d9

 

[*mistress*]

I top watered it the whole time just enough to keep the medium moist but not wet. The rest went into the res directly. No change outs. It was fed 750 ppm flora nova bloom, 100 ppm calcium nitrate, and 50 ppm magnesium sulfate. It is currently consuming almost a gallon per day.

Ppk's #1-2 are consuming well over a gal per day

Also, in the beginning of this experiment I decided to limit the amount of res level drop to 2 cm because that's what all the researchers recommend. Lately i've been letting the bigger plants go 3-4 cm with no ill affect.

how are these quantities of consumption measured/determined?

is there a mark in the res?

24hr rh avg?

full strength add-back top-watered?

nice quarter-sizers

keep having fun! enjoy your garden!

 

[delta9nxs]

hi, mistress!

i use crude math and eyeball for guesstimate.

pi x radius sq x height in inches divided by 231 (# of cubic inches in a gal) = volume in gallons.

radius is 7.5 x 7.5 = 56.25 x 3.1416 = 176 x 5.5 (height in inches) = 971 divided by 231 = 4.20 gallons at max capacity set by external standpipe.

at 4 cm = approx 1.5 inches down you still have radius 7.5 x 7.5 = 56.25 x pi 3.1416 = 176 x 1.5 = 265 divided by 231 = 1.147 gal difference.

i have been fighting rh lately. typically i run 50-60%, but when it's really cold outside the rh drops usually to around 40% but sometimes as low as 29-30%. i need a humidifier.

yes, i'm watering full strength as described above. if it gets much above 950 ppm i'll water with ro water once or twice. top watered just enough to moisten and the rest straight into the res. everything is very stable.

i just now went out and took readings on my lead plant in veg. it is 705 ppm at .5 and 6.4 ph. it's about an inch down so i'll freshen it up tonight.

thanks for your input, later on

 

[LJB]

would be interesting to compare same system (everything being same except medium) w/ coco as medium... for the water 3x-daily gardeners that may imply plant will topple over & die if not watered daily... or multiple times daily...

I replied to you elsewhere on this topic, but it's been raised many times on the forum, so will again here.

I think there is a huge disconnect between you and your 5 gallon containers being fed by wick and those of us flowering in 2 gallon or below and feeding by hand or drip, even without runoff.

This seems like a stupid question, but it demands being asked at this point. Have you experience flowering under HID, with coco in 2 gallon containers that were not wick fed or otherwise sustained by an internal reservoir?

I'm about as open minded as anyone, but can't even imagine a plant that is growing rapidly under HID in a 2 gallon container filled with coco not demanding to be watered and fed on a daily basis.

 

[*mistress*]

I replied to you elsewhere on this topic, but it's been raised many times on the forum, so will again here.

I think there is a huge disconnect between you and your 5 gallon containers being fed by wick and those of us flowering in 2 gallon or below and feeding by hand or drip, even without runoff.

This seems like a stupid question, but it demands being asked at this point. Have you experience flowering under HID, with coco in 2 gallon containers that were not wick fed or otherwise sustained by an internal reservoir?

I'm about as open minded as anyone, but can't even imagine a plant that is growing rapidly under HID in a 2 gallon container filled with coco not demanding to be watered and fed on a daily basis.

yes.
ran 2 gal under 1ks...

depends on how much water is given per feeding & how much fertilizer is in the water...

also depends on amount of dehumidification...

watering a plant is a very intimate practice - especially for those that water by hand...
every cultivar may require different needs. some may require watering daily, some may not...

@ least on these boards, the turn-over rate from garden to garden & from grow to grow is considerably large...

meaning, few @ icmag run 1-2 cuts over & over & over & over... this is the only way to really become familar w/ the individual plants & their needs...

so, to attempt to standardize watering regimes, when every gardeners environmentals, cultivars (strains), cultural practices, ventilation systems & media are different is very difficult...

if all of icmag had same 2 gal containers, same lights, same rh, same air temps, etc... could attempt guidelines... but there is no uniformity or concensus... mainly 'hobbyists'. & a few commercial gardeners that seem to concentrate on yield, rather than efficiency... ieg, they have no concern over how much water to give... just keep giving it...

very, very different under actual crop production standards. they understand value of water, run thousands of same plant in greenhouses & can calculate exactly how much water to give - @ ea stage of growth...

harder to do w/ 5-10 different strains, a few bagseed & a mutant or 2...

to answer q... no wicks in containers in current imagination... 5 gal. 3x3x3-5x5x5' tomato plants... they get fed every other day - max... a 2 gal was present; maybe 12-24 oz every other day...
btw,

2*128=256

256/24=10.66,

or, ~10% of the total volume of the container...

that 2 gal container was sitting in a 5 gal bucket... lots of additional holes drilled into 2 gal bucket...
media=30% bark, 30% pumice, 30% coco, 10% mineral matter...

when watered (using regular 24 oz stadium cup, from 5 gal bucket of solution), there is plenty of run off. enough that ~1-2" of solution rests in the bottom of the 5 gal (outer run-off catch) after application...

this water was generally present in bottom of container next day, albeit slighly > than previous day - but present. under 3k... ac... lots of air flow, etc...

so, question becomes, next day... should gardener

1) water anyway, even though run-off is still in external basin providing moisture to plant?;

2) extract run-off water from basin & water again?; or

3) permit water to evaporate & let it be?

if ph/ppm of the run-off is checked & w/in range, then it still holds ions for plants' roots to assimilate... no need to dump, or adjust...

also, that amount of water should be either used, evaporated, or down to 1/4-1/8" or so in the basin...

some gardeners prefer to maintain a moist to wet media environment 24/7...

here, prefer to let container get to where there is no water in external basin before watering again. surface of media is dry & container is light... they seem to prefer container getting nearly dry prior to waterin again... again, this is preference of gardener... most are terrifed of dry/drying coco/coco-mix/soilless media... ... when, thru running same cultivar, over & over & over, w/ many tests, they prefer container to be nearly dry/slightly moist before next watering...

leaves become lush, growth occurs & plant is generally healthier than watering daily...

this requires ea gardener to hone own cuts & find own practices... would not rely on boards to convey when plants need water/solution - that is province of gardener paying attention to plants...

if run many. many cuts, & cycle thru them, cannot formulate a precise program - whatever the containers or media used... ea strain - even in same geneotype/phenotype - or even same mum - may require different attention.

there are cuts that need calcium foliar sprayed because they form flowers so profusely in 1st 3 wks, that eat up lower leaves... different cut next to it, from different p1 stock, has no such issues... so, may have 4-6 plants that need certain attention, when others dont...

if dont run same cut over & over, would not know this & attempt every trick to diagnose symptoms of plant eating itself... ca, mg & iron deficiencies/toxicities can look very similar... especially to new gardeners... waterin more cal-mag may help, or may hurt - as calcium may affect potassium uptake, & vice versa... now, since potassium is generally included in most bloom regimes, how is this remedied?

for a gardener w/ multiple cuts & only a few plants exhibiting issues, they may decxide to water entire garden, to

1) fix issues w/ plant expressing some sort of deficiency; &

2) prevent deficiencies from showing up in other plants...

the fallacy of this is that the condition may be only those specicif plants; so watering entire garden is not answer...

can formulate a watering regime to exacting standards if

1) identify gardeners' own philosophy/prefernces/rituals, concerning watering; & then

2) maintain same cultivars over ea successive season...

if dont do these, is pointless to try to standardize a watering regime over such a broad array of variables & individual gardener biases/preferences/rituals...

btw, tomato plant in 2 gal bucket was (sadly) culled... tree of green (4-5 gal) overgrew little 2 gal runtess...

some plants dont require much attention @ all... some pure i's may only get 18" tall+wide after 4 wk veg under 1k's... other, thai-dom tomatoes cover 6 cubic feet of space... they require different facilitation...

to sum, would water max of 24oz per day/2 days in 2 gal container. more than that seems over kill... if place 51%+ coco in medium, can easily add a day to that... 100% coco would get every 2-3 days, min, 5-7 days max...

cheapo soil moisture meter takes all guessing & conjecture out of equation

clearly marked dry, moist & wet... insert into coco & water when media is moist-dry...
however, some, apparently, would water daily & maintain a constant wet reading... even if drain to waste, no wicks, no nothing - just water straight thru - media will be wet-moist next day in 100% coco...

those meters are very cheapo... maybe 1-10 coins @ regular garden stop?... cant argue w/ the readings... either the media is wet, moist or dry...

now, if concept is to replace cations & maintain same ppm/ec/ph, have to check run-off to see what is going thru & what is staying in roots... otherwise, just pouring thru, w/ no point...

if want constant wet media, water daily... ivho.

hope this helps. enjoy your garden!

 

[delta9nxs]

excellent post!

 

[InducedSerenity]

Delta (and mistress), thanks for the fantastic information in this thread. I don't think it's getting nearly the attention it deserves, but few share the thirst for specific and in-depth knowledge you folks do. I think I'll be happy if I walk away from a few readings of this thread understanding half of what's going on.

I'll give it a couple of more reads to be able to follow your experimentation a little better, but in your spirit of sharing experience, I was wondering if you have experimented with passive on a micro level? I'm planning a stealth micro grow in server case that will have about 20-22" of space up to the lights, and I'd really prefer to go hydroponic. I'm considering one large passive tub or DWC, but perhaps you had an opinion here?

Thanks for the info as always, I've found a good number of your posts quite useful.

 

[LJB]

*Mistress*,

Without arguing the merits of a system (and yes, yours has plenty) I find it hard to compare the water needs of plant given 1 to 2 inches of runoff to consume for a day or two after being watered to plant watered in a way that doesn't provide this little extra.

No doubt there are drought resistance strains and varying characteristics. People have different levels of knowledge and experience, common sense and feel for the plants. On the other hand, many of people on these forums have similar setups. One or two lights in a closet or a cab, no co2, 50-60 RH, 70-80 temps, etc.

Is the plant on the fringe of the table/light? Maybe it won't need as much as the others, etc. Is there an internal issue causing it slow down? There are always notes attached to any guideline.

From my experience, in general one should expect their plants flowering under HID in two or less gallons of coco or to require water on a daily basis during the peak weeks of growth.

I think we're in agreement against a regime that says a plant must be watered daily and that X % of runoff is required.

 

[Darth Fader]

Great thread! Thanks delta and mistress.

I just order a 3'x3' tent and will start my first grow in a couple weeks. I don't have the lighting sorted out yet but I'm thinking of trying LED w/ maybe supplemental CFL's. I've also been reading threads on this site like mad & changing plans from "active hydro" bubbleponic, DWC, aero, to "passive hydro" hempy (where I first saw delta's posts), earth box, and then wick (thx mistress). Delta, it seems that your new buckets are now using the medium as the wick, similar to the earth box.

Here's a q for you experienced growers. My grow is a CA legal MMJ garden. I planned on using 5 gal buckets w/ a footprint of about 2'x3' (a bucket is about 1'x1', right?) Also planned to scrog. Delta, your plants are huge. Do you think my 3'x3' tent can hold 6 of those beasts? If not, do you think it's better to go with a shorter veg or should I grow fewer plants & grow 'em big like yours?

Interested in ALL opinions on how you would play it (Imaginary or otherwise!).

One last thing, I'm looking at the 5-gal bucket as the outer container. Inner could go as big as a 2nd 5-gal (stacked) but lately I'm leaning toward maybe a larger Airpot or smartpot with a raised false (drilled) bottom for the res and wick system. Could be cool, huh?

 

[delta9nxs]

inducedserenity, hi, thank you for your kind comments!

i'm afraid you are talking to the wrong indian about micro grows. i have absolutely no experience with them. there are a lot of micro growers here who should be able to get you started. but i see no reason why a passive tub shouldn't work. hempy style would be easy and quiet.

later

 

[delta9nxs]

darthfader, thank you!

the "earth box" is fascinating and was kept in mind as i designed this thing.

all plants in ppk's are growing well, some better than others. all choices of medium have worked. the 10 with cloth wicks are working. the 3 so far with media only wicks are working. 4 weeks from first harvest. time will tell.

the looming "monster" on the horizon is, of course, a 100% coco grow. i don't feel i know enough yet and i have been warned by some successful all coco people that this won't work in one of these.

one of my plants occupies more than 9 sq ft by the end of the 4th week of 12/12. the only way you could get 6 of them in a 3 x 3 tent would be to run them through a shredder first. he he

i've done some very limited closet scrogs and if you've got the time to properly take care of them they can produce an amazing amount of bud.

find the long term scroggers here, they should be encyclopedias on this subject.

a hempy or dwc tub might be easier to manage than 6 buckets.

well, thanks for your comments

 

[bostrom155]

the looming "monster" on the horizon is, of course, a 100% coco grow. i don't feel i know enough yet and i have been warned by some successful all coco people that this won't work in one of these.

Hey Delta
I want to see that do you have any xmas lights on it

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, darth, i just realized this is going to be your first grow. i'm sorry i didn't get that at first.

keep everything as simple as possible. hand watered hempy buckets or tubs or standard nursery pots.

talk to other med growers in your area about medium, veg time and tent technique.

lights are a whole nutha oprah show! i have been studying plant lighting in general for a while and know that led's and cfl's will grow some decent painkiller if you can keep your grow flat and the lights right on them.

but really, for the same money or less you can get an air cooled 400 watt hps hortilux. spectrum is all taken care of for you. bigger, heavier buds. you are legal, so dealing with the heat presents no security risks.

best of luck! i'm on the improving side of a 10 yr ordeal with hepc and liver cancer, transplant, and ongoing injections of some really powerful shit to try and kill the hepc.

medical grade cannabis really helped me get through it.

course, i've been smokin for fun since 1965.

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, bostrom

yep, here is my all coco plant, growth was unbelievable! truly!

 

[cactusjack]

Darth Fader – Welcome to the world of indoor med growing! If you are going to scrog, you are probably thinking way too many plants for a 3 x 3 tent. I do most of my growing using either scrog or LST inside a 2’x4’ box with either 8 x 54 watt T-5 fluorescent or 3 x 150 watt HPS. Height limitations in earlier days drove me to this approach and even though they no longer exist, I still use the old setup.

Did a lot of DWC in the past but now usually use hempy with Turface. For hempy grows I use either two plants in 3 gallon buckets or a single plant in a 5 gallon bucket and can fill the 8 ft^2 screen either way. Using the single 5-gallon bucket takes longer to veg so I usually use the 2 x 3 gallon bucket approach. Either way I routinely pull 9-10 oz every two months, which frankly is more than I need. Only reason I can see for growing more plants in a small area is that it’s just a heck of a lot of fun. Depending on your med limits, you might consider SOG. I think Delta9 ran it in the past using small Turface pots.

Whatever you do, stick with a simple bulletproof approach for your first grow and you won’t be disappointed. I agree with Delta9 – its hard to screw up a hand-watered hempy and yet you’ll learn a lot in the process. You’ll spend more time getting familiar with your plants, refining your growing techniques, and less time fiddling with gadgets and chasing pH problems.

Delta9 – Your ppk experiences are really getting me excited about my next grow. Based on your results to date I’ve decided to follow your lead in several respects. I’m going with a simple “sump wick” based on your results as well as positive experiences I had last summer with vegetables in backyard “earth boxes”. I’ll also be borrowing your 90-10 Turface-coco medium. Never used coco before and I’ve been dying to try it. Your results with the 90-10 plus a couple handfuls of worm poop sound very encouraging.

As mentioned earlier, I plan to bottom feed exclusively with a float valve to maintain constant reservoir level. Will only top feed to set roots, then later to correct problems if necessary. I also plan to feed premixed nutes to the wicking reservoir through the float valve. Several years ago I ran Autopots using a single premixed solution (GH Flora) throughout the flower cycle and it worked fine. In many ways the wicking setup will be very similar except it will eliminate the potential for stressing air roots during drying cycles when the Autovalve didn’t open as quickly as I would like, and also avoid a variable-height perched water table that I’m sure was present in the Autopot.

Unfortunately I have been out of town (again!) for the last two weeks and since we were having subfreezing weather here, I put a heater in my clone bubbler while I was away… and cooked them. Should have used a wick cloner! Fresh clones started yesterday and I have no more trips planned for at least 3 months. Yippie! I’ll be able to hold their little hands all the way through the grow without interruption.