passive plant killer

[ImaginaryFriend]

Skuzz happens.

 

[petemoss]

Thank you Pete! I'm using 1/4" O.D. poly drip line between each lower reservoir and my pump/control container.....

Any thoughts on a quick way (quick like the awesome tire valves ) to fit out a system with 1/2" hardware?

Hi disciple, 1/4" od drip line is what I meant, not 1/8". I can't find a pic of my old controller bucket with six 1/2" lines, but here's a pic of the 1/2" grommets and double hose barbs I used. Much cheaper than hull-thru fittings and they don't leak once you find the right size hole to drill. I drilled holes that were slightly too large and had to use silicon glue to seal. They look dirty because of the glue. I think I used a 3/4" fostner drill bit. The hole should be just big enough so that it's hard to get the grommet in and hard to push in the double hose barb.

 

[disciple]

I think I found the culprit....

I think I found the culprit....

 

[stagehand099]

Hi disciple, 1/4" od drip line is what I meant, not 1/8". I can't find a pic of my old controller bucket with six 1/2" lines, but here's a pic of the 1/2" grommets and double hose barbs I used. Much cheaper than hull-thru fittings and they don't leak once you find the right size hole to drill. I drilled holes that were slightly too large and had to use silicon glue to seal. They look dirty because of the glue. I think I used a 3/4" fostner drill bit. The hole should be just big enough so that it's hard to get the grommet in and hard to push in the double hose barb.

View Image

View Image

Hey Pete.....its Tuesday, I'm wasted before sunset and I dig your energy for the herb and it's propagation. Stay thirsty my friend....

stagehand

 

[petemoss]

Hi stagehand,
It's Wed. morning here and I'm wasted as usual also! Just finished top watering my 28 plantlets with that battery acid tool d9 recommended. Works great, better than my turkey baster. Those hydro grommets work well, but now that I look around, I found that bghydro has e&f bulkhead fittings that are even better, and cheaper too! $1.54 each. I'm afraid I'm behind the times -haven't bought any fittings for years. So forget what I said about those 1/2" grommets and use the "e&f bulkhead fittings". Idiot-proof and you don't even need to make a super clean hole.

 

[Snook]

So with the big lights on things were more evident. (another advantage of HID lighting.... suspected problem areas get illuminated very well!!!)


The bulb of substance was present not only in the pump/control tank but I also was able to scoop out some of the same from the tire valves in the lower PPK reservoirs. I have to assume that it is in my 1/4" drip line as well and is obviously causing my problem.


p.s. thank you Pete for taking the time to post those photos and recco the push-grommets. I've had to use a hair dryer on 1/2" line (and bigger) every time I plumbed that way. I'm trying really hard to make standard non-drilled tire valves work and so far they do from a cultivation stand-point.... now if I can just beat the clogging. When I use that clear vinyl line for anything the algae just goes nuts... but you're probably putting that in a dark tank or just using it for demo purposes.

1/4" drip line as well and is obviously causing my problem

Here is a link for 3/8ODx1/4ID Black tube http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/749/Black-and-White-Vinyl-Tubing

With a small smear of goop on the tire valve threads, it easily screws, water-tite, onto the tire valve. Use a 4-5" piece, goop/screw onto tire valve, same from pulse rez. At Lowes they have 3/8" Watts, shutoff valves, use 2, one at the pot, one at the rez.. put a sufficient piece in between. You now have bigger ID tube, that you can shut off water flow from either direction and I will seperate them, attach a 3 foot piece of hose to the shut off vale and am able to blow thru any blockage, but I havent had any since useing the 1/4"ID tubeing. I used that laytex hose, with the 1/4inchOD dripline, PITA, algee/clogs. What cloged them, I have no idea, I didnt analyize. As for the 1/2" hose, use barbed connectors in the hose, then, the barb into the WP 1/2" grommet, never a leak, no heating.. but that was in the nightmare of DWC. Now very happy with tire valves.

 

[Snook]

Thanks SH

Manifold
I actually got mine from a local hardware store.

The 3/4" female hose thread by 1/2" barb I bought from a local hydro store.
I haven't seen them before or since, but I will go and ask this weekend who they get them from.

The pump is 633 gallons per hour.

I was going to ask yu about your pump.. 633GPH. That coul be why you are getting different sized pulses in different buckets.
That 1/2" tube has, just my guess, 4x the capacity of the 1/8"ID, 1/4"dripline. If the run is longish to each bucket, and there are multiple buckets, the pump may not have enough balls to, quickly, fill them all up equally. Just thinking.

 

[disciple]

 

[delta9nxs]

an 1/8" bit will just pass through the tire valves. i step them by drilling a 9/64" hole first, then a 5/32", then a 3/16". the valve is about 3/16" already except for the valve stem seat, so really you are just drilling out the seat. i use a high speed bit with a drop of vegetable oil.

i like drilling them in place after installation using a pair of channel locks in the left hand and the drill in the right. this holds the valve opposite the direction of spin.

disciple, you must not be using ro water as mine with ro and jacks took about a year to begin clogging regularly.

i still don't have a clog in the 1/4" id line.

my largest plants to date were all on the .170 id 1/4" od vinyl drip line so the volume is ok for a pulse if a little slow.

i don't intend to even try to grow plants that large again because of light application.

i'm still moving stuff and haven't begun construction yet on the new room but i'll be starting monday.

while the building is 30x40 i don't intend to use the whole thing because of electrical consumption.

the first room will be 10x30 with 24 plant positions. 12 on each side but not against the walls. i'm going to run 12 bulbs straight down the middle, with a bulb between each pair of opposing plants. i will only run 6 ballasts and will flip flop the bulbs in sets of six at the 6 hour point in flower.

so the configuration will give all plants a period with the light right in front of them dead center for 6 hours and then all plants except for the end 4 will get hit by two lights from each side for 6 hours.

each individual plant except for the end four gets hit at 3 angles. the end 4 get hit at two angles.

it's 6 am and i'm taking big hits of purple nukush for breakfast. just an amazing flavor. loosens you up if you are a little sore and stiff from the day before. nice head.

at 10' wide this room will give me the ability to walk behind the plants and train them to a screen. snook has just shown us how effective this can be.

immediately behind the screen will be removable, hang on reflectix panels.

i would like to run bare bulbs here as i will be working the plants primarily from the backside, working them against the lights. limiting the screen to 3' in height will allow me to reach over and work the front faces when needed. it will also keep all plant material in the "working" area of the lights at 16".

approximately a 3 week veg with training, topping, and defoliating as needed.

it will be a very interesting grow for me as it will be the first time in 5 years i have done a unit grow.

it will allow me to see what happens to the solution under a varying demand due to plant growth as opposed to a pretty much uniform solution running a perpetual show with plants in every stage of life.

in my previous set up, with the veg and flower areas run on two separate networks, the ppm would drop in veg and increase in flower yet stabilize in both areas off of the same 600 ppm input.

now i will have all plants on the same system all the way through. i get to play with feed strength a little.

construction of the room is going to be simple as i will use the whole back of the building straight across so i've got to build a 30' wall.

the building is 2x6 wood studs on 2' centers with a metal skin so i can use regular r-19 batting with a layer of foam board and finished with reflectix on the inside for a wall covering, air seal, IR shield, and reflectivity.

the building has 16' of headroom to the exposed rafters. i'm probably going to build the room with a 7' ceiling. plywood over beams with a layer of r-30 batting laying on top and reflectix on the inside.

i intend to run on closed environment principles for a lot of reasons. it is the best odor control. it will make me use co2. it will give me a much greater control over environment with less temperature and humidity extremes. it is the best pest control.

the room will use 2 double hung windows that are already installed in the building for window ac's. the primary one is a 24k btu lg electronics with auto restart and a programmable timer. it will be set to come on and off with the lights. 62 db outdoor noise which is quiet for a machine this size but i'm going to daytime flowering here as noise carries better at night.

the second ac will be an 8k btu lg elect with auto restart and a timer too.

it will be set to run at 65-68 during lights off only.

in cold weather i will use electric baseboard heaters set at 65 at night and of course they won't be needed during the day.

i've already got a gas line running to the shop as well as the house so i can run a propane co2 generator.

in about 3-5 days i will be off the internet for about 3-4 weeks as it will take that long to get service out in the boonies. might sneak into a starbucks once in a while.

later

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

From my perspective, it seems that 10 feet is too wide for a single column trained to the center screen (which I do approve of). If you are looking to finish your flowers 16" in, you your plant centers can be as close as 48" plus inches apart. That leaves you three full feet of working room on either side.

That's a yard people.

And that's alot.

Maybe that a luxury the old body has earned, but it screams loss of rebounded light...

Of course, I cannot envision these reflectix panels, so I'm at a loss.

On a fresh build like this, I would be inclined to build it 66" wide, put the pots at walls, and hang the light array on pulleys of convenient lengths that would allow me to easily move the lamps up and out of the way. As you enter, you pull the bare bulbs up to the seven foot ceiling, work on a rolling cart/stool and work the front of the plants, rather than from behind. For me, seeing the condition of the heads of the plants is of utmost importance.

If you are trying to keep the finished distance 16" from the lamps, that's a 32" center column without material. And that, for me, is workable.

I put a premium value on indoor work space, so maybe that is influencing the width of the build I am describing--saving shop space.

Who knows.

Best of luck.

Keep us posted over the next few days, and then go and get yourself a coffee...

 

[delta9nxs]

ok, maybe 9'.

but the building is so big i could fit 8 10x30 rooms in it. 4 on each of 2 floors.

i am leaving a 78 inch wide room and it was not wide enough for sure. i'm not going to lose reflectivity because the reflectix panels will be hung on the screen the plants are tied to.

 

[stagehand099]

ok, maybe 9'.

but the building is so big i could fit 8 10x30 rooms in it. 4 on each of 2 floors.

i am leaving a 78 inch wide room and it was not wide enough for sure. i'm not going to lose reflectivity because the reflectix panels will be hung on the screen the plants are tied to.

A simple drawing/diagram would help me to see what you are describing D9, if you have time.....Thanks.

stagehand

 

[gregor_mendel]

petemoss said:

Those hydro grommets work well, but now that I look around, I found that bghydro has e&f bulkhead fittings that are even better, and cheaper too! $1.54 each. I'm afraid I'm behind the times -haven't bought any fittings for years. So forget what I said about those 1/2" grommets and use the "e&f bulkhead fittings". Idiot-proof and you don't even need to make a super clean hole.

At greentrees hydroponics, the grommet and coupling is about 30% cheaper. I do like my E&F fittings, but I have been considering a system based on 1 or 2 gallon buckets. I think the diameter on those is probably too small for the large hole required of an E&F fitting.

 

[disciple]

 

[petemoss]

petemoss said:


At greentrees hydroponics, the grommet and coupling is about 30% cheaper. I do like my E&F fittings, but I have been considering a system based on 1 or 2 gallon buckets. I think the diameter on those is probably too small for the large hole required of an E&F fitting.

gm, with such a small bucket, it would be hard to get a good seal. Does it have to be a round bucket? I saw 98 oz. and 190 oz. square buckets on the US Plastics site. I think your best bet for a round bucket is a barbed coupling through a tight hole and plumbers goop, epoxy or (don't laugh!) hot glue. I was impressed with the solid weld I got with plumbers goop.

 

[disciple]

 

[delta9nxs]

A simple drawing/diagram would help me to see what you are describing D9, if you have time.....Thanks.

stagehand

hey, i really don't have time right now to do anything but move shit and build. but i will be back to document it all.

it's just a 10x30 room with a single line of 12 lights bare bulbs running straight down the center with a plant on each side of each bulb.

bulbs 1,3,5,7,9,and 11 on for 6 hrs and bulbs 2,4,6,8,10, and 12 on for 6 hrs.

each bulb delivering approx 32 moles/day per session at 16".

but each plant will be getting a hell of a lot more light than that because of the crossing pattern.

each plant gets 6 hrs at 1500 umols directly on it. then all but the end 4 get 6 hrs from 2 sides approx 2' to the center of the plant which should put foliage much closer than that.

it's really difficult to extrapolate actual light delivered under this scenario so i will wait until i can take light readings before i report anything.

but i expect to deliver approx 60 moles/day to each plant from 3 angles except for the end 4 and those should get 48 or so.

48 moles/day equals the most intensely lit natural light greenhouse in the world.

 

[delta9nxs]

what if you built a 2nd set of supports/stands just for your panels and then off-set them from the backs of the screen by a few inches or so. the space/gap might provide better backside illumination because (theoretically) more of the surface area of the panels will be exposed to light and can reflect it (rather than having leaves/buds contacting the panels as they will be if they're attached to the screen.

like when we back a plant away from a wall a bit, it tends to do better.

P.s. Was just at the hydro shop looking into co2 burners and tanks to go sealed I still have to vent monoxide and he suggested a daily air exchange even with tanks. How do you plan to deal with that?

i intend to hang them about 2" back from the screen for the same reasons.

i'm checking out co2 burners right now and from what i understand thus far the combustion of propane only produces carbon dioxide in the presence of sufficient o2. if the o2 is insufficient it will produce a small amount of carbon monoxide as a byproduct.

i think a cheap carbon monoxide alarm might be good here. maybe an o2 monitor along with the co2 monitor. but i will have the capability to exchange air.

 

[delta9nxs]

Hi D9,

Do u know how long your 1k hortilux have to be on to get to the point where any more light is a waste for that day for cannabis? Is it the same for veg and flower?

Thank you!

*I guess another way of asking this question is are we trying to get between 25 and 30 moles of light on our plants per day? Was it suggested earlier that a 1k Horti is pushing 1500 umol @ a given distance? Does that mean 1500 micromoles per second?

If it is, I could multiply that by 60 to get per minute moles. Then divide 25 mol or 30 mol by the per minute number to get total number of mins the light must be on to give us, say 25 mol. Then lastly divide that number by 60 to get hours our lights must be on. Using this math (which hinges on the assumption that the umol number is per second) I got about 4.8 hours for a 1K Horti...... am I way off?

So that would be on one side of the plant where the bulb is. If we have another bulb on a flip we could flip to it at 5 hours and get 25 mols on the other side of the plant. Since we want to keep the photo period at 12/12 we can just round up and go 6 hours one bulb and then flip for 6 hours on the other. Am I following along with this ok? Is this partially the logic behind what you're designing?

I'm trying to figure out how to adapt 600W to this scenario (but possibly on 4-sides of each plant)

“Do u know how long your 1k hortilux have to be on to get to the point where any more light is a waste for that day for cannabis? Is it the same for veg and flower?”


no, I don't know because no one knows. Unfortunately that study has not been done yet to my knowledge. But the specmeter people, who build greenhouse light monitoring equipment and supplemental light programs, base their whole program on 30 moles/day. That is considered to be a huge amount of light in a greenhouse. Their “light scouts” peg at 30 moles/day.


“I guess another way of asking this question is are we trying to get between 25 and 30 moles of light on our plants per day? Was it suggested earlier that a 1k Horti is pushing 1500 umol @ a given distance? Does that mean 1500 micromoles per second?”


well, I personally believe we need more light than 30 moles in aggregate per day for top production but there are limiting factors. The first being the bulb itself. A 1k horti produces 1500 umols at 16”. which is approx 64 moles per day. Equatorial sunlight. And then drops radically with each inch further away. Just 2” in free air drops it to approx 1200 umols. Yes, umols are micromoles per second, an instantaneous measurement of flow.


“If it is, I could multiply that by 60 to get per minute moles. Then divide 25 mol or 30 mol by the per minute number to get total number of mins the light must be on to give us, say 25 mol. Then lastly divide that number by 60 to get hours our lights must be on. Using this math (which hinges on the assumption that the umol number is per second) I got about 4.8 hours for a 1K Horti...... am I way off?”


right idea, but the easier math is per hour. Formula for moles per day is 3600 (number of seconds in an hour) x umols x number of hours divided by 1,000,000 (umols in a mole).


“one side of the plant where the bulb is. If we have another bulb on a flip we could flip to it at 5 hours and get 25 mols on the other side of the plant. Since we want to keep the photo period at 12/12 we can just round up and go 6 hours one bulb and then flip for 6 hours on the other. Am I following along with this ok? Is this partially the logic behind what you're designing?”


or, 3 bulbs on 3 sides for 4 hours each. Or four bulbs on 4 sides for 3 hours each. It's very hard to quantify, using the equipment we have available at home, the total effect of multiple bulbs at multiple angles giving light at different times.

The plant counts moles. The sun moves. My par meter pegs at 2000 umols in bright sunlight. 2000 umols is more light than the plant needs for max photosynthesis. Beyond that and you get photo inhibition.

How is the photosynthate partitioned? That is, does light on one side drive processes on the other side equally? I don't think so but have no way of finding out except observation.

I think we are forced to compromise in order to achieve a balanced presentation of light.

Light from the sun appears almost parallel to the plant and is equal in intensity at the depth of field represented by a single 3 dimensional plant.

There is no way we can accomplish this indoors with our lighting options. With one light we have spokes of a wheel with radically failing intensity at even slight increases in distance.

What is right for one part of a plant is inadequate for the rest of the plant.

We can compensate by adding other lights to the pattern, using them either simultaneously or alternately.

Or having lights move.

And by making the plant more 2 dimensional.

In my flower area I was hitting the plants from 2 directions simultaneously and I think it stimulated growth.

With my bulb arrangement I was using approx ¼ of the light from each bulb or a total of 500 watts applied to each plant since there were two bulbs.

This could also be accomplished with one bulb centered between two plants. Each plant also getting 500 watts output.

But the one light would lose effectiveness faster than the two lights because of proximity on a large 3d plant.

It's going to be interesting for sure.

 

[delta9nxs]

well, it's 6 am again and i'm doing a couple of bowls before i start work. internet will be disconnected here sometime very soon now and i won't have it for several weeks.

you more experienced people please help the new ones.

going incommunicado now.

i'll be back!