Tutorial Organics for Beginners

[Orrie]

I am positive local pathogens are in my peat . I would certainly hope so as there would be no diversity without them. They provide competition and/or food for other microbes and initiate SAR early on in the life of the plant.

Encouraging the BIM population to outnumber the bad guys is my main objective and the method appears to be working for several gardeners and myself. All anecdotal since no one in the group has a scope to back up these claims.



TH peat .. heard of them? tested any of their products?



“Sources of Sphagnum peat moss vary in microbial populations and composition. Therefore, disease suppression is not always predictable (Tahvonen, 1993). Blonde, fibrous peat from the surface of the bog has higher microbial populations than the darker, decomposed peat from deeper layers in the bog (Hoitink, 1991). Only blonde, fibrous peat, classified as H-2 to H-3 on the von Post decomposition scale (This is the normally harvested partially decomposed peat moss) provides enough beneficial microorganisms to promote disease suppression. Disease suppression lasts about 6-10 weeks (Hoitink, 1997).”


http://thpeat.com/beneficial-microbes-in-sphagnum-peat-moss/



They are saying disease suppression lasts about 6-10 weeks
Would that be from time of processing or hydration of the product?

thank you again for your input

 

[Microbeman]

Orrie;

If you pick up fusarium, botrytis or erwinia you may change your stance on that but all power to experimenting.

Infection with a potent pathogen can be different than some exposure and resultant immunity/shielding. You are correct however that some exposure develops the microbial defense system.

[An analogy is that beneficial predatory insects keep plant parasitic insects under control but for a balanced continuum there still need to be a few parasites]

Regarding the literature excerpts; It is 'generally' true that the lighter colored sphagnum peat moss (SP) is more microbially active than the darker, lower harvested SP. However, the darker SP is 'generally' higher in humus content (which has been created by the microbes) and may be more valuable for longterm pathogen resistance and longterm sequestered nutrients.

If possible I've historically preferred a blend of the two. BTW for Premier brands, I've found the cheaper lower grades of SP to be superior for soil mixes to their expensive higher grades. Strange but true.

I am not familiar with TH peat.

 

[boubacrampon]

Hello

Hello

Hello everyone

I am French, please excuse me for my approximate English.

I chose the LC's Soiless Mix #1 with the guano thes (recipe #3).
In the soil there will be only coco, no peat or sphagnum.
The dolomite powder is useful for peat (raise the level of PH), is it mandatory in coconut? I do not risk having a PH higher than 7?
If I do not put dolomite, will the bat guano get enough calcium for my indoor culture?
thank you in advance

 

[Orrie]

Microbeman;


When the facts change, I’d be happy to change my stance and correct any posts I may have made in error.
Until then and at this time , I would like to present the information below in support of continued experimentation and fact finding on the subject


It is my understanding peat can be classified conducive, suppressive or intermediate with regards to pathogens

“There was no correlation between percentages of damping-off and initial levels of nitrate-N and ammonium-N (data not shown), pH, or the level of decomposition of the raw peat (von Post value) (Table ​(Table1).1). Furthermore, no significant differences were detected in seedling emergence (typically between 80 and 100%) between peat samples during the bioassays. Based on postemergence damping-off data, 15/39 peat samples were classified as conducive to disease, 10 were suppressive, and 14 were intermediate.”


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1610304/


There is no guarantee the peat you buy from any company will be suppressive and as you pointed out with the Premier brand, mo money is not always mo better. Buyer beware.

The solution to the problem is Biodiversity , the term 'less is more' does not apply here.

“Soil-borne diseases result from a reduction of biodiversity of soil organisms. Restoring beneficial organisms that attack, repel, or otherwise antagonize disease-causing pathogens will render a soil disease-suppressive. Plants growing in disease-suppressive soil resist diseases much better than in soils low in biological diversity. Beneficial organisms can be added directly, or the soil environment can be made more favorable for them through use of compost and other organic amendments. Compost quality determines its effectiveness at suppressing soil-borne plant diseases. Compost quality can be determined through laboratory testing.”


https://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/viewhtml.php?id=283

I’m all in trying to find the answers for myself and my friends with this experiment -
Which is better to suppress pathogens…well aged LOCAL compost or bagged peat.(?)

There are several threads on peat. If someone would let me know which one would be good to continue this discussion I would appreciate that.

 

[Microbeman]

I’m all in trying to find the answers for myself and my friends with this experiment -
Which is better to suppress pathogens…well aged LOCAL compost or bagged peat.(?)

Both of course. If you cannot get peat than [v]compost alone. There is never such a thing as a silver bullet or bullet proof solution.

 

[Jack T.Ripper]

Thanks, Orrie.

I love to read the evidence, rather than the conjecture.

 

[Mr Jay]

Hello everyone

I am French, please excuse me for my approximate English.

I chose the LC's Soiless Mix #1 with the guano thes (recipe #3).
In the soil there will be only coco, no peat or sphagnum.
The dolomite powder is useful for peat (raise the level of PH), is it mandatory in coconut? I do not risk having a PH higher than 7?
If I do not put dolomite, will the bat guano get enough calcium for my indoor culture?
thank you in advance

Don't deviate from proven recipes if it's your first go.

 

[boubacrampon]

You always add the dolomite lime. Dolomite lime will not raise your PH above 7, and the cal/mag is needed in the mix.

Don't deviate from proven recipes if it's your first go.

Thank you for your repli.
I will respect the recipe.

 

[Microbeman]

Thanks, Orrie.

I love to read the evidence, rather than the conjecture.

Please elucidate what the conjecture is/was.

 

[Orrie]

Thanks, Orrie.

I love to read the evidence, rather than the conjecture.

You are welcome Jack , There is a phrase "on the shoulders of giants"


That wasn't conjecture in my discourse with MM if that is what you were referring. MM just wanted to make sure I was listening in class




I did have something on sterilization that might help



Is peat moss sterilized?
No. Sphagnum peat moss has many beneficial organisms with almost no plant pathogens or weed seed. The added cost of sterilizing peat would not be justified. In fact, more harm can occur if peat moss is sterilized because the natural, beneficial microorganism population would be destroyed. If these natural organisms are gone, there would be no competition for plant pathogens that would find their way into the growing medium, so plant pathogens can quickly get established and devastate crops.

http://www.greenhousemag.com/article/premier-tech-sphagnum-peat-moss-natural-readytouse/

 

[Orrie]

Both of course. If you cannot get peat than [v]compost alone. There is never such a thing as a silver bullet or bullet proof solution.

Both. I agree.
That is what I’ve been saying, or trying to. No single bullet theory here.
I contend that cutting the bag of SP and leaving it on the ground promotes a shotgun approach to the pathogen problem i.e,
Biodiversity is provided by a host of critters including worms.


Perhaps pics might help (?)



I lifted up the bag of Alaska peat today and saw a few worms fall out of the slit. Tearing it open, I found another dug in and hanging on


Bag was heavy so I set it down, dug down and pulled out several more worms along with some nicely hydrated peat.


a closer look at the texture and worms. Not a bunch of worms yet. I will be feeding them some comfrey right in the bag to see if populations grow


This shows a 6 week old pepper seed germ test in peat/sand combo, biological activity only, no added nutrients so far and they seem happy except for getting left out in the rain last night.


It takes time for an idea to cycle through the cannabis community and I doubt this will be any different. For the time being,and as said before, new growers would be wise to follow the basic recipes in this thread as they have a proven track record

 

[RiddleMeThis]

First cycle using LC mix #2 and the bone, blood, kelp recipe went well. Ran into a few issues along the way, calcium deficiency, some heat stress, and a fully seeded crop. Seeds were not much of an issue, as we had planned to open pollinate at some point with two nice, very different goji pheno. Just not this run.

So now we're into our 2nd cycle with recycled soil and a plan. New mix has Malibu compost, homemade worm castings, vermiculite, lava rock, bio char, kelp, fish bone meal, alfalfa meal, some guanos, sul pro mag, greensand, oyster shell, gypsum, and some composted wood/bark mulch on top.watered that down with a compost tea with kelp, alfalfa, and fish hydrolysate. Let sit for 3 weeks and transplanted. Two week veg, and just flipped to flower.

I also have been using ful-power, aloe flakes, coconut powder, and agisil 16h. Not necessarily all at once. They'll be given filtered water through blumats, and receive one compost or botanical tea each week throughout flower. Kelp, alfalfa, and sul po mag are a few that I plan to use.

Also used cootz' root cube cloning recipe using aloe, coconut, agisil, and ful-power. Soaked the cubes and applied foliage. Healthiest cuts I've ever taken, but not the fasted. Could be environment related though.

Anyways, sorry for the ramble. First cycle buds, though seeded, were absolutely out of this world in terms of resin and aroma. Frostiest nugs I've ever seen. The recipes listed by burn one are freaking full proof. Between this thread and the Rols threads, I have acquired an arsenal of information, with the absolute simplest way to grow healthy plants that will produce buds far superior to those grown using other non-organic methods. Huge thanks to all those who contribute here!

I'll get some pics up later tonight.

 

[Guest]

Can someone give me the name of a testing lab that I can send a sample of soil to in the US that is reasonably priced.

 

[Chilly Willy]

I will never forget the rolling paper that came with that album from Cheech & Chong. It's nice to meet you, but I wanted to remind people that dolomite lime should not be added to correct your ph balance. When the ph is not correct in the first place then there are other factors that need to be corrected from the start. Adding this to your soil is going to give you too much of these ingredients dominite lime contains. When the ph is not correct this phenomena prevents your plant from using all the ingredients it needs, and at the same time gets too much ingredients it does not need which includes harmful amounts of micro ingredients.

A commercial horticultural outfit does not use dolomite lime, instead they naturally let the peat moss cure and develop under a large tarp. You also have to be careful when making your grow organic, it begins with what soil you choose, not just the ingredients you feed the plant later. The word organic is probably the most exploited word in the english dictionary and there are many interpretations out there and the reason why, it is costly to get a natural product and people want to sell you their lack of effort so they may profit.

Now mixing perlite will benefit the aeration of your new soil, it will also make your soil go further since it adds to it's bulk. I have only grown organic which I begun in 2006, the results are amazing in every way from the health of the plant, which also includes the healthier condition of the finial product. back 15 years ago there was a war amongst companies concerning the use of the term organic, and this is even more so today.

CW

 

[Chilly Willy]

If the most guarded secret in your grow is your choice of soil, then the most important factor when using soil will be how you acheive aeration of your new substrate. Perlite added loosens up the soil itself, and your choice of growing container will help facilitate this movement of air as the weight of the water pulled down by gravity introducing Co2 to bathe the roots of your plant. When they say your plants drink a nutrient solution, this is really true, and it is a good way to vision what is really going on. Hence, over feeding your plants is a sure fire way to suffocate them. If the substrate is always wet, then how is the plant able to get the Co2 it requires.

Containers can be found in all shapes and designs. From the so called "Perfect Pots" bought from Oregon, to the ones you buy at the local store down the street. But who really has "pots" discussed well are the orchid forums. Orchids face the same questions we are asking here on our grow. For one, mistakes are expensive! And secondly the field almost requires their own niche market in containers. Here we can take the example of Rand"s Air Cone Pot. They are 6 inches square, taper as they go towards the bottom and have not just a hole on each side but a cone with hole in it that extends up the center of the inside of the pot.

The choice of acquiring peat moss as opposed to regular soil is required in creating better aireation from the start even before thinking about Perlite. The Perlite further displaces the very pourus peat moss so that it's effect is enhanced. Unnatural substrates like coco fibers will fall short of the superior soils, not just because of the ph not being correct when acquiring the, but many other factors as well which means you now are not just playing god with the sun, you are also playing god with a million different variables which naturally occur in the soil by itself.

I like the idea of this thread about soil, it is just not in depth enough to cover this topic. Maybe being humble really is the ticket in getting the best seat for a grow. And when I do manipulate something then I might as well realize that there are things I am forgetting.

 

[slownickel]

Can someone give me the name of a testing lab that I can send a sample of soil to in the US that is reasonably priced.

Try spectrumanalytic.com ask for the k-3 process, it is NOT in their portfolio. This procedure is really several procedures, all of which you need, that a lot of guys here on icmag are using. You need to take your soil, dry it and then sift it. Do not grind it against the sifter. Let it shake through and send in a 100 grams or so of it...

 

[slownickel]

Microbeman;


When the facts change, I’d be happy to change my stance and correct any posts I may have made in error.
Until then and at this time , I would like to present the information below in support of continued experimentation and fact finding on the subject.

I’m all in trying to find the answers for myself and my friends with this experiment -
Which is better to suppress pathogens…well aged LOCAL compost or bagged peat.(?)

There are several threads on peat. If someone would let me know which one would be good to continue this discussion I would appreciate that.

Realize that all those pathogens are present in all soils. What controls them is good biology. Why in some mixes do they enter more easily than others?

This is mainly due to plant nutrition. If there is too much K, Mg and Na versus Ca, root tips die off and some roots even split. All of which are open wounds where the bag guys can enter.

If there is not enough Cu in the soil, you will see cracking on the stalk and in many cases in some roots as well.

Biology is important no doubt. But you can have the biology perfect and still screw up dramatically. There are hundreds of broke organic farmers that will attest to this.

Very few organic growers want to buy "mined minerals" as they are contributing to who knows what.

If you are organic and want to be successful, you better learn how to balance your soil both from both the mineral and biological stand point. Either only will often fail.

 

[Guest]

Try spectrumanalytic.com ask for the k-3 process, it is NOT in their portfolio. This procedure is really several procedures, all of which you need, that a lot of guys here on icmag are using. You need to take your soil, dry it and then sift it. Do not grind it against the sifter. Let it shake through and send in a 100 grams or so of it...

Thanks! I found the lab earlier and didn't see that test listed. I will contact them.

 

[Scrappy-doo]

Can someone help me out with re-using old soil?

My last run I used a base pretty close to LC's mix, without the added perlite. For food I didn't really follow a specific recipe. Went too light when I mixed it and ended up needing to supplement with teas. Still ran into some deficiencies but pulled through to harvest well enough. This time I figured I'd follow one of the recipes here and take the guesswork out of it.

All the soil was tossed from pots right into trash bags where it is right now. What I was planning is to get as much of the roots out as I can and then treat it as if it were just peat, adding in everything else as if starting from scratch, but I figure I should see what more experienced organic farmers think.

Or maybe I should just scrap the old dirt and start fresh?

 

[Boyd Crowder]

leave the roots and everything scrap
mix it all into your new, proper soil with basicallyno work bro
just use it to cut in , this stuff of your is fine start for the next batch - also you HAVE to cut with perlite or other drainage