Anyone got a tip on the amounts for inputs to use as top dress for used soil? 15 gal organics from last Summer. Plan to top dress amendments using Kelp, Alfalfa, Bone, Blood meals, powdered dol lime and high P guano. Thanks. Also any tip on keeping this from becoming a hard layer of crete please.
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Tutorial Organics for Beginners
- Thread starter BurnOne
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DO NOT APPLY DOLOMITE. You will make a block of cement. Use high Cal lime if you need to raise your pH. If not, use gypsum.
Ideally you would use a soil analysis to dose what your are missing. The cost is about $50.
If your grow is important, stop guessing. And forget about the dolomite!
I did a half cup of each and 3 tbs dolo . Also only did 2 tbs each on the guano's. I did that before I saw your reply. Didn't figure I'd get a response on this, I've been asking on many threads, You are the first to answer. You're right, I'm sick of guessing then trying to diagnose problems later. $50 is cheap in the long run. Thank you.
Send it to Spectrumanalytic and ask for the K-2 process. Then post it in the slow nickle lounge and surely several folk will give you some ideas of how to go forward.
Get a sample from under your amendments provided you didn't wash them in yet. Get a good sample from about 2 inches below the surface with a full cut to about 10 inches or so. Get the same amount of sample from the top to the bottom. Take 3 or 4 samples and then mix them together, you will take your one sample from this composite sample.
Dry it lightly and then sift it. Take 200 grams and send it to the lab of the sifted sample.
Go watch the video in the lounge.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=331317
Get a sample from under your amendments provided you didn't wash them in yet. Get a good sample from about 2 inches below the surface with a full cut to about 10 inches or so. Get the same amount of sample from the top to the bottom. Take 3 or 4 samples and then mix them together, you will take your one sample from this composite sample.
Dry it lightly and then sift it. Take 200 grams and send it to the lab of the sifted sample.
Go watch the video in the lounge.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=331317
First, are you talking about topdressing dolomite or gypsum? You have not described what growing system you are using but it sounds as if you are attempting no-til. Also you do not state whether you have planted in the soil yet. IMO, topdressing of dolomite or gypsum is something only practical for farmers working big fields.
(IMO) In container grower, you would/should have mixed these into your original mix. Bonemeal is typically mixed into soil as well.
If growing no-til natural, trying to adjust the pH of your soil is a futile activity. The only thing I topdress prior to replanting is compost and or vermicompost. The other substances mentioned (outside of the liming agents & bonemeal) should be topdressed after plants are growing and the soil is actively able to 'digest' those ingredients. FYI I have not used bloodmeal.
Before you send a sample to 'any' lab make sure they analyze by weight. See the recent thread by biggreg. Ensure the lab is 'accredited'. Ensure they have a container growing specialty analytics. Field agricultural testing is completely inappropriate for container/nursery growing. If you are not satisfied of all of these factors, save your money.
Other than that, if you can better outline or point to a description of your system then maybe some suggestions could emerge.
(IMO) In container grower, you would/should have mixed these into your original mix. Bonemeal is typically mixed into soil as well.
If growing no-til natural, trying to adjust the pH of your soil is a futile activity. The only thing I topdress prior to replanting is compost and or vermicompost. The other substances mentioned (outside of the liming agents & bonemeal) should be topdressed after plants are growing and the soil is actively able to 'digest' those ingredients. FYI I have not used bloodmeal.
Before you send a sample to 'any' lab make sure they analyze by weight. See the recent thread by biggreg. Ensure the lab is 'accredited'. Ensure they have a container growing specialty analytics. Field agricultural testing is completely inappropriate for container/nursery growing. If you are not satisfied of all of these factors, save your money.
Other than that, if you can better outline or point to a description of your system then maybe some suggestions could emerge.
or put plants through the mix and gauge real time based on previous optimal plant performance where you soil lies in way of efficiency
if you can't deal with minor deficiencies on the fly your toolkit is empty
I top dress everything into my containers, i never test my soil and I avoid minerals
people are deluded in thinking that maximum soil potential equates to optimal growth
is that how it works in nature
are the most vibrant ecosystems perfectly dense with specific mineral composition or does microbiology fill the gap as plants evolved to work symbiotically with them?
people keep trying to reinvent the wheel from the car up and wonder why there is all this confusion
if you can't deal with minor deficiencies on the fly your toolkit is empty
I top dress everything into my containers, i never test my soil and I avoid minerals
people are deluded in thinking that maximum soil potential equates to optimal growth
is that how it works in nature
are the most vibrant ecosystems perfectly dense with specific mineral composition or does microbiology fill the gap as plants evolved to work symbiotically with them?
people keep trying to reinvent the wheel from the car up and wonder why there is all this confusion
Microbe,
If you checked the numbers that greg posted, you will see that proportionally they are exactly the same. The problem is not the weights, it is the solvent strengths. And if you read up on Melich, his conclusions were regarding volume, not weights. The issue is not weights/volumes, it is the solvent applied to that volume. That is where the numbers are off.
And..... if the soil has a density of more than .2 gr/cc, it is NOT a medium, it is a soil. I disagree here, these hybrid mediums are soils and should be tested like one.
Specific issues need to be addressed though to get this "more correct". Sifting before sending out a sample is recommended. Labs grind samples.
Having the lab weigh their sample and adjusting solvents per weight or making the sample larger to make it 10 ml of solvent to 1 gram of soil is the correct way to get things done.
The problem is that everyone is on this dolomite and CaMag stuff. The Mg is killing the microbiology due to asphyxiation. No air. Anaerobic.
As for not worrying about and adjusting pH, wow. Some folk are in real acid conditions depending on what they used. This is why EVERYONE seems to be adding dolomite, even the coco growers. Trying to adjust pH.
Plant in a low pH and watch what happens.
I have worked in many many "media" soils, both in flowers (roses), culinary herbs, medicinal herbs and ornamental plants. Soil analysis works in ALL those cases if you know what you are doing. Ask various growers on this forum what happened when they did their soil analysis and dialed it in. Bucket concepts with these type analysis are the best one can hope for, general directions, clear deficiencies, etc.. In the case of Gregs analysis, quite clear, with 4 different calculations, all the "PROPORTIONS" were EXACTLY the same. It is relationships that are important, not levels or ppms.
We do not live in an exact world.
Maybe I assumed wrong, but the question was about a "used soil" correct? Yes, give us more information about this "used soil" and what it is made of, where it came from and what was applied historically.
If you checked the numbers that greg posted, you will see that proportionally they are exactly the same. The problem is not the weights, it is the solvent strengths. And if you read up on Melich, his conclusions were regarding volume, not weights. The issue is not weights/volumes, it is the solvent applied to that volume. That is where the numbers are off.
And..... if the soil has a density of more than .2 gr/cc, it is NOT a medium, it is a soil. I disagree here, these hybrid mediums are soils and should be tested like one.
Specific issues need to be addressed though to get this "more correct". Sifting before sending out a sample is recommended. Labs grind samples.
Having the lab weigh their sample and adjusting solvents per weight or making the sample larger to make it 10 ml of solvent to 1 gram of soil is the correct way to get things done.
The problem is that everyone is on this dolomite and CaMag stuff. The Mg is killing the microbiology due to asphyxiation. No air. Anaerobic.
As for not worrying about and adjusting pH, wow. Some folk are in real acid conditions depending on what they used. This is why EVERYONE seems to be adding dolomite, even the coco growers. Trying to adjust pH.
Plant in a low pH and watch what happens.
I have worked in many many "media" soils, both in flowers (roses), culinary herbs, medicinal herbs and ornamental plants. Soil analysis works in ALL those cases if you know what you are doing. Ask various growers on this forum what happened when they did their soil analysis and dialed it in. Bucket concepts with these type analysis are the best one can hope for, general directions, clear deficiencies, etc.. In the case of Gregs analysis, quite clear, with 4 different calculations, all the "PROPORTIONS" were EXACTLY the same. It is relationships that are important, not levels or ppms.
We do not live in an exact world.
Maybe I assumed wrong, but the question was about a "used soil" correct? Yes, give us more information about this "used soil" and what it is made of, where it came from and what was applied historically.
Weird,
If you see deficiencies, you lost both yield and quality. Any stress is a negative in the equation.
Many of you all are already in nearly perfect "soils", thus can get away with a lot of things that won't work somewhere else.
We did a soil test on a Maui soil, it was nearly perfectly balanced with Ca, 85%! That is why they can get away with very little inputs. Same thing with parts of Cali, nearly perfect soils, but even then with bicarbonates present in the water, can result in two side by side farms, with the same crop (MJ), same everything and one farm has lots of problems. Why? Water/soil dynamics is a big issue.
This is not about "soil potential", it is about nutrient balance. With lots and lots of organic material, you buffer the soil, digest the minerals and make them into nutrients. However, if there is no manganese, you will never have any manganese with those organic material methods. If there is no boron in your area and you add all the OM in the world from that same area, guess what? No boron. Seen it too many times in the last 35 years. Everything is relative to where you are. Many of you all on the west coast are blessed with great soils and locally generated composts, worm castings, etc...
If your soil pH is high, you will never get it to come down with alkaline water no matter how much OM you apply. We have applied 100's of tons of compost per acre, used EM, worm casting teas, ferments etc... pH stays at the same pH as the water.
This is why so much Organic produce taste like crap. Very few organic growers have the skill set to get where they need to go. Result? Poor quality, poor yields. Yes, they grew a crop with nothing... congrats. And the poor sucker that eats that poor quality produce with low brix? Poor health. We are what we eat. But if they are in a fantastic soil, they can get away with it. I can that mining.
If it doesn't taste great, or smoke great, something is missing.
At the cup, tried a bunch of stuff. Pretty near all crap. The boys that balanced their soils, AMAZING. Folks were raving about it. Gave two monster indoor growers some of green hands stuff, they couldn't believe it. Same with the AOG from Hazybulldog. No one could believe if was from outside. Stupid good. What got them all the response? Gypsum. As Greenhands said, one of his commercial growers near him when asked about gypsum replied, "Yep, gyps yer friend."
It is easy to take the easy way out and Science is not for everyone. If one is blessed in their guess about what to farm in, then fantastic. Those that aren't so blessed need tools.
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This is not especially disagreeing with what I stated.
.
I would not particularly set out to do this, although have experimentally grown in straight peatmoss successfully. There is reason to low pH growing using hydroponics and also it depends what one is growing. As you have stated I have experience with a variety of plants.
I am addressing natural living soil growing, which I think you are not. It may be that the 'used soil' is not intended for this paradigm, in which case a 'dialed in' conventional horticultural philosophy is likely better suited.
As far as lab testing, I just advised that if the lab is not accredited, does not weigh samples. is not specialized to nurseries and does not list the specifics for their analysis of each nutrient, then there is not much point using them. I use labs myself for certain aspects. I tend to avoid labs which are centered on a specific paradigm. IMO this creates mediocrity and tunnel vision.
Mmmm sounds like a challenge.
What lab do you use to test your soil microbiology? See if they have an international import permit from APHIS. If so, I would be more than happy to post my numbers to see where I stand.
Do you have any quantification of your "soil" microbiology? The topic fascinates me. I was in a three day seminar with Elaine I. years ago. We saw organic nutritional trials on top of her biological web tech and the results were very very different. When humates were added, the biology exponential counts went balistic. Yields were day and night different too, especially applying gypsum, manganese, zinc, copper and others...
When I speak of soils or even these hybrid mediums, I do address the concept of a living soil, which is key in organics as well as conventional growing, however, that is only part of the problem.
To get biology deep one needs to have air. Calcium is the only element that opens a soil.
The base distribution concepts if you learn how to use them can get you air where there was none by using Calcium to flocculate or open up the soil. For many of you all pushing no-til, try some gypsum and let me know what you see.
We do 4 to 5 applications of worm castings per year, about the same in dry manures. Hardly any compost, we use our compost for our worm operations. Humus is the black gold. Compost oxidates if top dressed in most parts of the world. Plus we mix in rice hull bio char.... that is the turbo for the biology.
What lab do you use to test your soil microbiology? See if they have an international import permit from APHIS. If so, I would be more than happy to post my numbers to see where I stand.
Do you have any quantification of your "soil" microbiology? The topic fascinates me. I was in a three day seminar with Elaine I. years ago. We saw organic nutritional trials on top of her biological web tech and the results were very very different. When humates were added, the biology exponential counts went balistic. Yields were day and night different too, especially applying gypsum, manganese, zinc, copper and others...
When I speak of soils or even these hybrid mediums, I do address the concept of a living soil, which is key in organics as well as conventional growing, however, that is only part of the problem.
To get biology deep one needs to have air. Calcium is the only element that opens a soil.
The base distribution concepts if you learn how to use them can get you air where there was none by using Calcium to flocculate or open up the soil. For many of you all pushing no-til, try some gypsum and let me know what you see.
We do 4 to 5 applications of worm castings per year, about the same in dry manures. Hardly any compost, we use our compost for our worm operations. Humus is the black gold. Compost oxidates if top dressed in most parts of the world. Plus we mix in rice hull bio char.... that is the turbo for the biology.
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F
fatx
i love vermicast and fulvic acid
I run my own microbiology lab for microbial volumes and general diversity. e.g. bacteria/archaea, actinobacteria, flagellates, naked amoebae, testate amoebae, ciliates, fungi, yeast, nematodes, rotifers. I do not do evaluations of DNA.
Depending on what is being tested, SFI results are variable in reliability, mainly because the bacterial and fungal 'mass' estimation is based upon foundations that cannot be broadly applied interspecies. e.g. one species of bacterium or fungi will have a different weight factor than another so lumping them under one factor skews results.
PS.You should trial wood shavings for char. I think you will find it far superior to rice hulls. We even found it superior to the large hardwood chunks broken up. (anecdotally)
I've got nothing against gysum. You'll see me recommending it along with oyster shell.
I've got nothing against gysum. You'll see me recommending it along with oyster shell.
how much did I lose in yield and quality being reactive LOL
qualify and quantify the benefit before you try to make the sale
Not selling you anything Weird, please don't take me wrong.
Try this for an example of my point.
http://www.cropnutrition.com/manganese-in-crop-production
We get as much crop yield and quality increase with several of the metals such as Mn as we do with good calcium sources.
Note on that chart that depending on the type and pattern, interveinal chlorosis can also be a manganese deficiency.
Ya my problem has gotten worse I should of taken pics and posted because it looked like it was getting better I watered with ewc Tea and then the following water I used the flowering tea and days later whatever the problem is spread to more upper growth. Idk if it's some sort of lockout but the leaves are yellow with brown interveinal chlorosis. I took clones so if I can't fix the problem soon I'm just going to chop the plant and not battle whatever the problem is all flower. I have to water them with the flower tea in the morning so I plan to top dress with castings and then add the tea. The reason I was going to top dress the casting was because I read if it was a lockout that top dressing the castings would add microbes to the soil to help balance things out
Have you ruled out Root Aphids/Fungus Gnats? Tis definitely the season.
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It's the only plant showing problems. It looks like it could be a cal/mag problem but it's started as magnesium for sure. Idk if to much epsom salt would lock out the calcium. I only sprayed the plant one time with epsom salt at 1tspn per gallon. Then I noticed the leaves that were affected getting worse so then I did a soil drench of epsom salt at 1tspn per gallon. I stopped with the epsom salt and then the next watering I did ewc Tea. Then the next watering I gave them the flowering tea and I'd say about 3 days later the problem moved to more of the upper new growth. I have two strains 5 kush and one cheese hybrid and the cheese is the only one showing the problem the kush all looks good. Maybe I should of not cut out the epsom salt and incorporated it in the feed program. I'm working on getting dolomite lime instead of ag lime for my next run
