Tutorial Organics for Beginners

[hells winter]

I just finished readin' this thread .

Took me a while...

Just want to say thx to LC for workin' out the basics and B1 for puttin' it together.

And to all the people how've helped out with answers to all the questions.



HW

 

[ambertrichom]

Snype, what do you guess your cost to be after completing your list?

 

[Former Guest]

you can cut that fox farms even more with perlite; in fact I'd advise it. peat is hydrophobic and compacts easily. I have to use a wettening agent to help it along so its not a puddle even with perlite. then I would like to cut it with coir to improve aeration after doing only peat. I've built and used two so far and used ocean forest. the ocean forest was the easiest for water only for nutrition but spendy for that amount. so I built a guano/kelp mix recipe and that worked really well as the poop is available more readily than say rock phosphate for example. the last soil mix I used fertilizers like that, bone meal and things that needed to be broken down more by microbes and so just watering it didn't work as well for me at least. I much prefer the guanos or using the FFOF because I hate brewing teas so often. the guano recipe was called Bongaloids and that is also in the first post of recipes and you can buy bales of peat for super cheap called Lakeland unless you want promix which would have some coir.

some of those ingredients like alfalfa will be hot as the nitrogen is immediately available and FFOF is already packed with nitrogen along with most everything you need. I like to top mulch with alfalfa then water. people cut it down with happy frog 50/50 and then add 30% or more perlite to that. I've been reading about this lately and I know I'm not an expert but thought I could share these water only recipes as examples I'm going to use like lc's mix #2 and some of the things I've had to deal with.

Phillthy uses -
1 - 3.8 cu ft bale of pro-mix
2- bags FFOF

Marlo uses -
1:1 Coir / FFOF

Both have excellent gardens...

dank.Frank

 

[Ph-patrol]

I agree with adding coco core to that mix. I noticed better root development when adding to soil. Less roots rapping container and more central root development.

I found that alfalfa meal is a great source of nitrogen. But I got some nitrogen overdose using the recommended amount with some plants. Some random clawing. I think Im going to just mulch top soil and use in teas in future. Maybe cut amount used in half???

I added green sand to my mix and more chunky perlite.

I'm still learning though. Great post LLbean.

 

[dank.frank]

I'm trying to come up with a indoor mix for 5 Gallon Pots with 25 plants per 4,000 watts. I want to be able to just add water. I'm also looking for flavor so I'm hoping I'm not over doing it with the ratio and ingredients. Does anyone see any problems with this mix:

1 bag FFOF (11.2 Gal)
EWC (1.5 Gal) - http://www.fixitfarmmaine.com/product-information
Chunky Perlite (2.1 Gal)

Base = 2 Cu Ft

Fish Bone Meal (2 Cups) http://www.groworganic.com/fish-bone-meal-3-16-0-6-lb.html
Blood Meal (1 Cup) Local
Kelp Meal (1 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/kelp-meal-5-lb-box.html
Alfalfa Meal (3/4 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/alfalfa-meal-5-lb-box.html
Dried Molasses (3/4 Cup) Amazon
Ahimsa Organics Neem Cake (1 Cup) http://www.neemresource.com/NeemCake.html
Azomite (3/4 Cup) Local
Oyster Shell Flour (2 Cups) http://www.groworganic.com/oyster-shell-lime-50-lb.html
Gypsum (1/2 Cup) Local
Diatomaceous Earth (Fossil Shell Flour) (1/2 Cup)http://www.bulkherbstore.com/Diatomaceous-Earth
Sul-Po-Mag (3 TB) Amazon
BioVam (1 tsp) http://www.tandjenterprises.com/CCPRO/Category/BioVam-Products
BioAG Vam (1 tsp) http://www.greners.com/i/nutrients-additives/BioAg-VAM.html

I know a lot of what you are working with there is based on our previous conversations and my general "base amendments" post..

I'm glad to see you moving forward with things.

You gotta keep in mind - the list and ratios I provided in that post are being placed into a base medium that is completely unfertilized - and then measured to amend 1.5 cu ft (11 gallons, roughly)

Now you are using a base soil which is fertilized already - and increasing the amount of amendments - by percentage of total volume of the mix - I'd say even with the 2 cu ft you are intending to mix - you might be running on the high end of things already with the ratios you list, given you are using a soil that is already fertilized.

Things to consider - is cutting back on some of the oyster shell - and including a part of dolomite - it's not evil...and it is faster acting that oyster shell. So it serves the purpose of having a quick adjustment right out the gate. The other thing I'd consider, in your pursuit of a better / more balanced flavor - would be to include some part guano in your mix. I really love seabird guano as an amendment. I'd cut back a bit on the fish bone and blood a bit and on the neem and alfalfa a bit, and add in some seabird guano.

So say reduce to:

1 1/2c fish bone
3/4c blood
1/2c alfalfa
1/2c neem

Then add:

1/2c Seabird guano


The other thing you should really consider - is FFOF is (should be) already pH balanced. EWC are not going to alter pH nor is perlite.

The main reason many organic mixes call for additonal liming materials is to raise the acidity of PEAT MOSS - not necessarily to provide cal/mag or micros.

If that is going to be your base mix - perhaps you should consider reducing the amount of oyster shell you have in the mix by half...

Otherwise, you could keep the amendment list the same and consider using a base mix like Phillthy was using:

1/2 bale pro-mix
1 bag FFOF
15# EWC
5 gallons chunky perlite

And even then, I'd still suggest you have about 3/4c too much Oyster Shell as pro-mix is also supposedly pH balanced.

Not telling you to change anything - just giving you some feed back.



dank.Frank

 

[vitamingreeninc]

I know a lot of what you are working with there is based on our previous conversations and my general "base amendments" post..

I'm glad to see you moving forward with things.

You gotta keep in mind - the list and ratios I provided in that post are being placed into a base medium that is completely unfertilized - and then measured to amend 1.5 cu ft (11 gallons, roughly)

Now you are using a base soil which is fertilized already - and increasing the amount of amendments - by percentage of total volume of the mix - I'd say even with the 2 cu ft you are intending to mix - you might be running on the high end of things already with the ratios you list, given you are using a soil that is already fertilized.

Things to consider - is cutting back on some of the oyster shell - and including a part of dolomite - it's not evil...and it is faster acting that oyster shell. So it serves the purpose of having a quick adjustment right out the gate. The other thing I'd consider, in your pursuit of a better / more balanced flavor - would be to include some part guano in your mix. I really love seabird guano as an amendment. I'd cut back a bit on the fish bone and blood a bit and on the neem and alfalfa a bit, and add in some seabird guano.

So say reduce to:

1 1/2c fish bone
3/4c blood
1/2c alfalfa
1/2c neem

Then add:

1/2c Seabird guano


The other thing you should really consider - is FFOF is (should be) already pH balanced. EWC are not going to alter pH nor is perlite.

The main reason many organic mixes call for additonal liming materials is to raise the acidity of PEAT MOSS - not necessarily to provide cal/mag or micros.

If that is going to be your base mix - perhaps you should consider reducing the amount of oyster shell you have in the mix by half...

Otherwise, you could keep the amendment list the same and consider using a base mix like Phillthy was using:

1/2 bale pro-mix
1 bag FFOF
15# EWC
5 gallons chunky perlite

And even then, I'd still suggest you have about 3/4c too much Oyster Shell as pro-mix is also supposedly pH balanced.

Not telling you to change anything - just giving you some feed back.



dank.Frank

I am looking online and see 2 different types of seabird guano...1 is 10-11-2 and one is 1-10-0? Then there are Bat Guanos that do the same exact thing, in regards to switching the NPK ratio. Please help me understand this

 

[dank.frank]

It has to do with where it is harvested and what the birds / bats were eating. Then you have the notion that companies alter (formulate) the product to get the end result they desire. There can be minor differences in numbers based on who / where the product was analyzed as well.

I use Blue Ocean Organics - which imports guano directly from Peru - and is the same supplier that many companies purchase their bulk from.

Nearly equal parts of N/P and about 1/5 the K is pretty much the standard for seabird guano, otherwise, it's been altered.



dank.Frank

 

[Snype]

I know a lot of what you are working with there is based on our previous conversations and my general "base amendments" post..

I'm glad to see you moving forward with things.

You gotta keep in mind - the list and ratios I provided in that post are being placed into a base medium that is completely unfertilized - and then measured to amend 1.5 cu ft (11 gallons, roughly)

Now you are using a base soil which is fertilized already - and increasing the amount of amendments - by percentage of total volume of the mix - I'd say even with the 2 cu ft you are intending to mix - you might be running on the high end of things already with the ratios you list, given you are using a soil that is already fertilized.

Things to consider - is cutting back on some of the oyster shell - and including a part of dolomite - it's not evil...and it is faster acting that oyster shell. So it serves the purpose of having a quick adjustment right out the gate. The other thing I'd consider, in your pursuit of a better / more balanced flavor - would be to include some part guano in your mix. I really love seabird guano as an amendment. I'd cut back a bit on the fish bone and blood a bit and on the neem and alfalfa a bit, and add in some seabird guano.

So say reduce to:

1 1/2c fish bone
3/4c blood
1/2c alfalfa
1/2c neem

Then add:

1/2c Seabird guano


The other thing you should really consider - is FFOF is (should be) already pH balanced. EWC are not going to alter pH nor is perlite.

The main reason many organic mixes call for additonal liming materials is to raise the acidity of PEAT MOSS - not necessarily to provide cal/mag or micros.

If that is going to be your base mix - perhaps you should consider reducing the amount of oyster shell you have in the mix by half...

Otherwise, you could keep the amendment list the same and consider using a base mix like Phillthy was using:

1/2 bale pro-mix
1 bag FFOF
15# EWC
5 gallons chunky perlite

And even then, I'd still suggest you have about 3/4c too much Oyster Shell as pro-mix is also supposedly pH balanced.

Not telling you to change anything - just giving you some feed back.



dank.Frank

I really appreciate you help. I thought about the FFOF having food already and should have adjusted the ratio's a little. That's some good advise! I would like to stay with the base that I suggested earlier. I have good results with FFOF but need more food and more perlite. Regarding the pH, I've been using FFOF for years and there's not enough Oyster Shell in there to hold the pH in the 6's the whole grow. That's why I went with 2 cups Oyster Shell. Some people told me not to use Dolomite but I'm going to take your advise because you know what you're talking about and I don't. Do I need to add any Dolomite now that I cut out half of the Oyster Shell?

There are many types of Seabird Guano. Which one should I get out of this list?

1. Seabird Guano (1-10-0) http://www.groworganic.com/seabird-guano-hi-p-1-10-0-5-lb-box.html

2. Sunleaves Peruvian Seabird Guano (12-11-2) http://www.groworganic.com/sunlvs-prvn-sbrd-guano-11-lb-10102.html

I'm assuming that I'd use #1 of the Seabird Guano because it's not so high in Nitrogen.

So here is the new mix:

1 bag FFOF (11.2 Gal)
EWC (1.5 Gal) - http://www.fixitfarmmaine.com/product-information
Chunky Perlite (2.1 Gal)

Base = 2 Cu Ft

Fish Bone Meal (1.5 Cups) http://www.groworganic.com/fish-bone-meal-3-16-0-6-lb.html
Blood Meal (3/4 Cup) Local
Kelp Meal (1 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/kelp-meal-5-lb-box.html
Seabird Guano (1/2 Cup)
Alfalfa Meal (1/2 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/alfalfa-meal-5-lb-box.html
Dried Molasses (3/4 Cup) Amazon
Ahimsa Organics Neem Cake (1/2 Cup) http://www.neemresource.com/NeemCake.html
Azomite (3/4 Cup) Local
Oyster Shell Flour (1 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/oyster-shell-lime-50-lb.html
Gypsum (1/2 Cup) Local
Diatomaceous Earth (Fossil Shell Flour) (1/2 Cup)http://www.bulkherbstore.com/Diatomaceous-Earth
Sul-Po-Mag (3 TB) Amazon
BioVam (1 tsp) http://www.tandjenterprises.com/CCPRO/Category/BioVam-Products
BioAG Vam (1 tsp) http://www.greners.com/i/nutrients-additives/BioAg-VAM.html

 

[dank.frank]

Nah, go with the high n/p guano. That's why I suggested cutting back on the other N sources and a bit on the fish bone - to kind of keep you in the same parameters you are after with just a wider variety of products.

I still think a blend of liming agents is best - although you can get away with just oyster given you have sul po mg providing some mg and you have plenty of calcium in the bone/shell/gypsum....I'd still suggest you go with the mix of dolo, oyster, gypsum - just because it is more well rounded...and allows the plant to have more control over how it regulates the rhizosphere. Keeping in mind the sulfur in sul-po-mg is going to push pH down a bit - you have the necessary requirements to allow the plant to create flux as it desires and dictates...

The standard application rate is 1 cup per cubic ft of high peat based medium - and given you have basically NO peat, outside of what is blended in with the FFOF - you really shouldn't NEED that standard application rate. However, because of the sulfur, I don't think you are going to see it jump too high - but I'd be cautious when recycling the medium and reapplying any kind of liming agents without a soil test to tell you how much you have left.

Given you are just supplementing nutrition and providing an extension to what is in the FFOF - I'd still suggest you go with about half the amounts you are thinking. If that makes you uncomfortable based on your experience with FFOF - then cut back by 1/4 - but I'd still cut back either way.

Someone else may have a different opinion and I'd not be opposed to hearing their reasoning and taking it into consideration...

Looking over what you have listed now - I'd add 1/3c dolomite...and call it good.



dank.Frank

 

[Snype]

Nah, go with the high n/p guano. That's why I suggested cutting back on the other N sources and a bit on the fish bone - to kind of keep you in the same parameters you are after with just a wider variety of products.
Ok so I'll go with the Sunleaves Peruvian Seabird Guano (12-11-2) http://www.groworganic.com/sunlvs-pr...-lb-10102.html

I still think a blend of liming agents is best - although you can get away with just oyster given you have sul po mg providing some mg and you have plenty of calcium in the bone/shell/gypsum....I'd still suggest you go with the mix of dolo, oyster, gypsum - just because it is more well rounded...and allows the plant to have more control over how it regulates the rhizosphere. Keeping in mind the sulfur in sul-po-mg is going to push pH down a bit - you have the necessary requirements to allow the plant to create flux as it desires and dictates...
Can you give me a good ratio of a mix of solo, oyster and gypsum that you think will work for my mix? Or is my new formula below good?
The standard application rate is 1 cup per cubic ft of high peat based medium - and given you have basically NO peat, outside of what is blended in with the FFOF - you really shouldn't NEED that standard application rate. However, because of the sulfur, I don't think you are going to see it jump too high - but I'd be cautious when recycling the medium and reapplying any kind of liming agents without a soil test to tell you how much you have left.
I see below you said to add 1/3 Cup Dolo so that's what I'll add to the formula
Given you are just supplementing nutrition and providing an extension to what is in the FFOF - I'd still suggest you go with about half the amounts you are thinking. If that makes you uncomfortable based on your experience with FFOF - then cut back by 1/4 - but I'd still cut back either way.
This makes me think I have to change my whole mix. I know you know what you are talking about so I'm going to have to change the whole mix now. If I'm going organic, I want to have all the flavor that can go with it and don't want to mess it up by using too much food so I get it. I'll knock off 1/4 off of what I think I'm supposed to and see what you say.
Someone else may have a different opinion and I'd not be opposed to hearing their reasoning and taking it into consideration...

Looking over what you have listed now - I'd add 1/3c dolomite...and call it good.



dank.Frank

Here's the new mix: How does it look now?

1 bag FFOF (11.2 Gal)
EWC (1.5 Gal) - http://www.fixitfarmmaine.com/product-information
Chunky Perlite (2.1 Gal)

Base = 2 Cu Ft

Fish Bone Meal 3-16-0 (1 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/fish-bone-meal-3-16-0-6-lb.html
Blood Meal (1/2 Cup) Local
Kelp Meal 1-0.1-2 (3/4 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/kelp-meal-5-lb-box.html
Sunleaves Peruvian Seabird Guano 12-11-2 (1/2 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/sunlvs-prvn-sbrd-guano-11-lb-10102.html
Alfalfa Meal 2.5-1-1 (1/3 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/alfalfa-meal-5-lb-box.html
Dried Molasses (1/2 Cup) Amazon
Ahimsa Organics Neem Cake (1/2 Cup) http://www.neemresource.com/NeemCake.html
Azomite (3/4 Cup) Local
Oyster Shell Flour (1 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/oyster-shell-lime-50-lb.html
Dolomite Lime (1/3 Cup)
Gypsum (1/2 Cup) Local
Diatomaceous Earth (Fossil Shell Flour) (1/2 Cup)http://www.bulkherbstore.com/Diatomaceous-Earth
Sul-Po-Mag (2 TB) Amazon
BioVam (1 tsp) http://www.tandjenterprises.com/CCPR...ioVam-Products
BioAG Vam (1 tsp) http://www.greners.com/i/nutrients-a...BioAg-VAM.html

I lowered the Sul-Po-Mag to 2 TB and I lowered the Dried Molasses to 1/2 Cup. All the meals were also changed. Do you like this formula or would you change anything?

 

[ct guy2]

Personally I would substitute fish meal for the blood meal or just ditch it. You can get many of those ingredients in smaller quantities at ***** or just get their nutrient pack where everything is already measured and tested for you.

Don't mix the myco when you mix the soil but add it directly to the hole when you plant your clone or seedling.

I think it's tough to start with a commercial soil. Much better to start with peat moss, since you already have the perlite and EWC source it would be easy to mix and then it's much easier to give recommendations.

TOU 8. Spamming: The posting of links to other commercial websites, forums, chat rooms or communities, or commercial products are not permitted.

 

[Snype]

Personally I would substitute fish meal for the blood meal or just ditch it. You can get many of those ingredients in smaller quantities at ***** or just get their nutrient pack where everything is already measured and tested for you.

Don't mix the myco when you mix the soil but add it directly to the hole when you plant your clone or seedling.

I think it's tough to start with a commercial soil. Much better to start with peat moss, since you already have the perlite and EWC source it would be easy to mix and then it's much easier to give recommendations.

Yeah I realize it's harder to figure out because I'm already using a soil with everything in it. The food in FFOF runs out in 2-3 weeks after potting up to 5 gallon from 1 gallon. I'm sure my first formula was too hot but this one might be looking much better. I'll post it again so people don't have to read back but if anyone sees any problems, please let me know. So I can't add the BioVam and BioAg to the soil when I do my mix? Can someone elaborate further? Also, do I not need Liquid Karma because of the BioVam and BioAG?

1 bag FFOF (11.2 Gal)
EWC (1 Gal) - http://www.fixitfarmmaine.com/product-information
Chunky Perlite (2.8 Gal)

Base = 2 Cu Ft

Fish Bone Meal 3-16-0 (1 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/fish-bone...16-0-6-lb.html
Blood Meal (1/2 Cup) Local
Kelp Meal 1-0.1-2 (3/4 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/kelp-meal-5-lb-box.html
Sunleaves Peruvian Seabird Guano 12-11-2 (1/2 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/sunlvs-pr...-lb-10102.html
Alfalfa Meal 2.5-1-1 (1/3 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/alfalfa-meal-5-lb-box.html
Dried Molasses (1/2 Cup) Amazon
Ahimsa Organics Neem Cake (1/2 Cup) http://www.neemresource.com/NeemCake.html
Azomite (3/4 Cup) Local
Oyster Shell Flour (1 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/oyster-shell-lime-50-lb.html
Dolomite Lime (1/3 Cup)
Gypsum (1/2 Cup) Local
Diatomaceous Earth (Fossil Shell Flour) (1/2 Cup)http://www.bulkherbstore.com/Diatomaceous-Earth
Sul-Po-Mag (2 TB) Amazon
BioVam (1 tsp) http://www.tandjenterprises.com/CCPR...ioVam-Products
BioAG Vam (1 tsp) http://www.greners.com/i/nutrients-a...BioAg-VAM.html

I also took the EWC down to 1 Gallon and added more perlite. How does this sound?

 

[Mate Dave]

I find 25- 35 litres of Bio-Bizz All-mix soil to be the optimum for growing plants.

Adding stuff to a well formulated mix is just asking for trouble.

I'd perhaps start from scratch with quality Peat and EWC adding pine bark and perlite to the mix and then add some home made pre-mix.

Plants use what they need in soil and without osmosis to fool them into extra uptake, anything left over in the media is kinda wasteful.

Plants usually burn from toxicity which is not too much of anything but an imbalance.

You never hear of the grower down the allotment that can't grow cabbage because his field is too fertile.

 

[Snype]

I find 25- 35 litres of Bio-Bizz All-mix soil to be the optimum for growing plants.

Adding stuff to a well formulated mix is just asking for trouble.

I'd perhaps start from scratch with quality Peat and EWC adding pine bark and perlite to the mix and then add some home made pre-mix.

Plants use what they need in soil and without osmosis to fool them into extra uptake, anything left over in the media is kinda wasteful.

Plants usually burn from toxicity which is not too much of anything but an imbalance.

You never hear of the grower down the allotment that can't grow cabbage because his field is too fertile.

That makes sense but FFOF doesn't have enough food in it so I have to add more. I like this soil and the problem is that it runs out of food. So I need to come up with what to put inside. It'll be a process and I'll probably have to change the mix when we see how it works. I gotta take steps and I want to work with a soil that I'm already used to so I can sort out whatever problems come with the mix. I want a mix that still yellows out at the end. It'll be a process.

 

[dank.frank]

Personally I would substitute fish meal for the blood meal or just ditch it.

Don't mix the myco when you mix the soil but add it directly to the hole when you plant your clone or seedling.

I think it's tough to start with a commercial soil. Much better to start with peat moss, since you already have the perlite and EWC source it would be easy to mix and then it's much easier to give recommendations.

ROFL - when you just going to pay the advertising fee and be done with it?? It's always the same with you no matter what question is asked: "BUY MY PRODUCT".

One day you might even have the decency to give credit to who you got the idea from in the first place...but I digress.


@Snype - I'd stick with things exactly like you had them in post #4832 - but with 1c Oyster Shell and 1/3c dolomite.

CT_Guy does have a point with the microbes and adding them directly to the soil vs applying directly to the roots....some of the microbes do not actually become "active" until they are in direct contact with roots...as that is what they are intended to inoculate.

That being said, I typically mix the mycos with the EWC and then mix that in with the perlite. The perlite allows me to see how thoroughly I've mixed those amendments into the rest of the soil (as typically, the base medium I make does not already have any drainage amendment in it until I add it)

I typically have two different soil mixes in rotation and one that is in use and the one that is recycling / composting. I like to plant various things in the soil that is currently not being used - barely, dandelion, alfalfa, etc - just stuff that is going to sprout easily and get "tilled" back in once the soil gets used and bagged. This ensures there are roots moving through the soil to stimulate the soil microbes and ensure they are active...this was a change I made after discussing this very topic matter with Microbeman.

All that being said, I've never seen less benefit from mixing the mycos directly into the soil - nor can I say I've seen MORE benefit when applying directly to the roots or the edges of the hole they are being planted in...

Ultimately the way I see it - if the mycos are fully dispersed through out the medium, then when the roots hit, they will begin colonization. I've noticed MAJOR differences in the tilth and quality of soil that I have simply mixed in the microbes and let sit vs a soil that they were not applied to...so I tend to go against the grain and still mix things directly into the soil...just based on my own personal experiences.



dank.Frank

 

[Mate Dave]

I would never do a no till Dank Frank. We've spoken on this before, I feel that amendments and tilling improves porosity and has more benefit to the plants growing in it and intern they respond faster. Its cannabis were growing a quick flowering plant and all the nutrients need to be there at the beginning until the end, the plant's don't wait for nothing and no one.

Microbes. lol


Snype, if the soil nutriment is not lasting the full cycle perhaps pre-veg in a smaller pots and pot on as you go, this will benefit and give the plants a lot more N for flower.

I find that if I veg in the big pots the plants have too much N and grow weaker stems because of the availability and use too much N because of it which diminishes much faster in flower then if just using the N during the stretch period.

I do this to 180 plants.

 

[Snype]

ROFL - when you just going to pay the advertising fee and be done with it?? It's always the same with you no matter what question is asked: "BUY MY PRODUCT".

One day you might even have the decency to give credit to who you got the idea from in the first place...but I digress.


@Snype - I'd stick with things exactly like you had them in post #4832 - but with 1c Oyster Shell and 1/3c dolomite.

CT_Guy does have a point with the microbes and adding them directly to the soil vs applying directly to the roots....some of the microbes do not actually become "active" until they are in direct contact with roots...as that is what they are intended to inoculate.

That being said, I typically mix the mycos with the EWC and then mix that in with the perlite. The perlite allows me to see how thoroughly I've mixed those amendments into the rest of the soil (as typically, the base medium I make does not already have any drainage amendment in it until I add it)

I typically have two different soil mixes in rotation and one that is in use and the one that is recycling / composting. I like to plant various things in the soil that is currently not being used - barely, dandelion, alfalfa, etc - just stuff that is going to sprout easily and get "tilled" back in once the soil gets used and bagged. This ensures there are roots moving through the soil to stimulate the soil microbes and ensure they are active...this was a change I made after discussing this very topic matter with Microbeman.

All that being said, I've never seen less benefit from mixing the mycos directly into the soil - nor can I say I've seen MORE benefit when applying directly to the roots or the edges of the hole they are being planted in...

Ultimately the way I see it - if the mycos are fully dispersed through out the medium, then when the roots hit, they will begin colonization. I've noticed MAJOR differences in the tilth and quality of soil that I have simply mixed in the microbes and let sit vs a soil that they were not applied to...so I tend to go against the grain and still mix things directly into the soil...just based on my own personal experiences.



dank.Frank

Ok, I'll take your advise and go with that one. I'll also mix the myco into the soil like I was going to do. I'm sure I'll run into problems and be showing you pictures of what's going on with the plants for some help. Thanks a lot for helping me with my mix! I can't wait to see how it goes. Hopefully this is enough to get me on my way. So here's the final mix:

1 bag FFOF (11.2 Gal)
EWC (1.5 Gal) - http://www.fixitfarmmaine.com/product-information
Chunky Perlite (2.1 Gal)

Base = 2 Cu Ft

Fish Bone Meal 3-16-0 (1.5 Cups) http://www.groworganic.com/fish-bone...16-0-6-lb.html
Blood Meal (3/4 Cup) Local
Kelp Meal 1-0.1-2 (1 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/kelp-meal-5-lb-box.html
Sunleaves Peruvian Seabird Guano 12-11-2 (1/2 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/sunlvs-pr...-lb-10102.html
Alfalfa Meal 2.5-1-1 (1/2 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/alfalfa-meal-5-lb-box.html
Dried Molasses (3/4 Cup) Amazon
Ahimsa Organics Neem Cake (1/2 Cup) http://www.neemresource.com/NeemCake.html
Azomite (3/4 Cup) Local
Oyster Shell Flour (1 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/oyster-shell-lime-50-lb.html
Dolomite Lime (1/3 Cup)
Gypsum (1/2 Cup) Local
Diatomaceous Earth (Fossil Shell Flour) (1/2 Cup)http://www.bulkherbstore.com/Diatomaceous-Earth
Sul-Po-Mag (3 TB) Amazon
BioVam (1 tsp) http://www.tandjenterprises.com/CCPR...ioVam-Products
BioAG Vam (1 tsp) http://www.greners.com/i/nutrients-a...BioAg-VAM.html

 

[dank.frank]

Sorry..up the mycos to 2 TBSP of each...if you are going to be mixing in. Say your mix is going to be roughly 21 gallons, ie 2 cu ft - and that will be roughly 4 plants...looking at the application rates recommended per plant...1 or 2 tsp per plant...take that into consideration since it is being mixed in vs applied directly.

My only concern is the same as others have expressed and that is using a medium that is already fertilized.

Note in my basic organics sticky - that the same basic amendment recipe can be used with my base mix or the base mix that Phillthy uses. His base mix made roughly 30 gallons...mine 11 gallons. Same exact amendment recipe. The difference being he was using FFOF which is already fertilized. Considering his mix was about 20 gallons of unfertilized peat (pro-mix) and the base mix you are going to use has ZERO that is unfertilized...

I'm still just a bit concerned that the soil is going to be on the side of TOO MUCH...

My only suggestion to that is really...DO NOT throw this out after each round...LOL. Rather, start recycling. Take the "used" soil from your flowering cycle and use that for your next round of vegging plants...

When you re-amend, do so at 1/2 of everything except the mycos - keep that the same. You'll eventually build up two full rotations of soil - one that is currently in use, one that is going to be used for the next round of veg, and one that will be sitting for a cycle, that has been re-amended and is essentially composting until it is needed for the next set of flowering plants...

You're on the right track...if your pursuit is increasing flavor - you're barking up the right tree going organic. That is 1000% certain.

And being open minded about it is best - working with a fertilized product as a base medium, there might be a bit of give and take - and expecting that and knowing that is key to not dismissing organic outright, if you don't get the exact results you are after the first round.

I'm not going to claim I'll give you the perfect advice when you are working with a base medium I have not...but I know you are on the right track with the diversification of your inputs...and your ratios of each ingredient are correct - it's just the over all quantity of each that makes me hesitant. The best approach is to keep all things in respect to each other...and rather than playing with reduction of one thing vs another thing - reduce ALL things by a set percentage....if in fact you find these amounts end up being too much.

And now, I'm just thinking ahead...you may not encounter any issues and changes may not be necessary...but if so, it's best to throw it out there so you can begin thinking on such matters before they occur.



dank.Frank

 

[Snype]

Sorry..up the mycos to 2 TBSP of each...if you are going to be mixing in. Say your mix is going to be roughly 21 gallons, ie 2 cu ft - and that will be roughly 4 plants...looking at the application rates recommended per plant...1 or 2 tsp per plant...take that into consideration since it is being mixed in vs applied directly.

My only concern is the same as others have expressed and that is using a medium that is already fertilized.

Note in my basic organics sticky - that the same basic amendment recipe can be used with my base mix or the base mix that Phillthy uses. His base mix made roughly 30 gallons...mine 11 gallons. Same exact amendment recipe. The difference being he was using FFOF which is already fertilized. Considering his mix was about 20 gallons of unfertilized peat (pro-mix) and the base mix you are going to use has ZERO that is unfertilized...

I'm still just a bit concerned that the soil is going to be on the side of TOO MUCH...

My only suggestion to that is really...DO NOT throw this out after each round...LOL. Rather, start recycling. Take the "used" soil from your flowering cycle and use that for your next round of vegging plants...

When you re-amend, do so at 1/2 of everything except the mycos - keep that the same. You'll eventually build up two full rotations of soil - one that is currently in use, one that is going to be used for the next round of veg, and one that will be sitting for a cycle, that has been re-amended and is essentially composting until it is needed for the next set of flowering plants...

You're on the right track...if your pursuit is increasing flavor - you're barking up the right tree going organic. That is 1000% certain.

And being open minded about it is best - working with a fertilized product as a base medium, there might be a bit of give and take - and expecting that and knowing that is key to not dismissing organic outright, if you don't get the exact results you are after the first round.

I'm not going to claim I'll give you the perfect advice when you are working with a base medium I have not...but I know you are on the right track with the diversification of your inputs...and your ratios of each ingredient are correct - it's just the over all quantity of each that makes me hesitant. The best approach is to keep all things in respect to each other...and rather than playing with reduction of one thing vs another thing - reduce ALL things by a set percentage....if in fact you find these amounts end up being too much.

And now, I'm just thinking ahead...you may not encounter any issues and changes may not be necessary...but if so, it's best to throw it out there so you can begin thinking on such matters before they occur.



dank.Frank

I really appreciate all of your advice. The only thing that I'm confused about is that I thought 11.2 Gallons = 1.5 Cu Ft of soil and 2 Cu Ft of soil is 15 Gallons. That's the only confusion here. I'll increase the myco. Are you sure I'm not supposed to use 1 TB of each? Before I was using 1 tsp of each and now you want me to add 6x to it. Just wondering? When the soil is done we'll use it for vegetables outside after we add in what we will need. Thanks again for all the help! Of course I'll want to make my own base but I just want to take steps first. Thanks again and here is the new mix:

1 bag FFOF (11.2 Gal)
EWC (1.5 Gal) - http://www.fixitfarmmaine.com/product-information
Chunky Perlite (2.1 Gal)

Base = 2 Cu Ft

Fish Bone Meal 3-16-0 (1.5 Cups) http://www.groworganic.com/fish-bone...16-0-6-lb.html
Blood Meal (3/4 Cup) Local
Kelp Meal 1-0.1-2 (1 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/kelp-meal-5-lb-box.html
Sunleaves Peruvian Seabird Guano 12-11-2 (1/2 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/sunlvs-pr...-lb-10102.html
Alfalfa Meal 2.5-1-1 (1/2 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/alfalfa-meal-5-lb-box.html
Dried Molasses (3/4 Cup) Amazon
Ahimsa Organics Neem Cake (1/2 Cup) http://www.neemresource.com/NeemCake.html
Azomite (3/4 Cup) Local
Oyster Shell Flour (1 Cup) http://www.groworganic.com/oyster-shell-lime-50-lb.html
Dolomite Lime (1/3 Cup)
Gypsum (1/2 Cup) Local
Diatomaceous Earth (Fossil Shell Flour) (1/2 Cup)http://www.bulkherbstore.com/Diatomaceous-Earth
Sul-Po-Mag (3 TB) Amazon
BioVam (2 TB) http://www.tandjenterprises.com/CCPRO/Category/BioVam-Products
BioAG Vam (2 TB) http://www.greners.com/i/nutrients-additives/BioAg-VAM.html

 

[ct guy2]

ROFL - when you just going to pay the advertising fee and be done with it?? It's always the same with you no matter what question is asked: "BUY MY PRODUCT".

One day you might even have the decency to give credit to who you got the idea from in the first place...but I digress.


@Snype - I'd stick with things exactly like you had them in post #4832 - but with 1c Oyster Shell and 1/3c dolomite.

CT_Guy does have a point with the microbes and adding them directly to the soil vs applying directly to the roots....some of the microbes do not actually become "active" until they are in direct contact with roots...as that is what they are intended to inoculate.

That being said, I typically mix the mycos with the EWC and then mix that in with the perlite. The perlite allows me to see how thoroughly I've mixed those amendments into the rest of the soil (as typically, the base medium I make does not already have any drainage amendment in it until I add it)

I typically have two different soil mixes in rotation and one that is in use and the one that is recycling / composting. I like to plant various things in the soil that is currently not being used - barely, dandelion, alfalfa, etc - just stuff that is going to sprout easily and get "tilled" back in once the soil gets used and bagged. This ensures there are roots moving through the soil to stimulate the soil microbes and ensure they are active...this was a change I made after discussing this very topic matter with Microbeman.

All that being said, I've never seen less benefit from mixing the mycos directly into the soil - nor can I say I've seen MORE benefit when applying directly to the roots or the edges of the hole they are being planted in...

Ultimately the way I see it - if the mycos are fully dispersed through out the medium, then when the roots hit, they will begin colonization. I've noticed MAJOR differences in the tilth and quality of soil that I have simply mixed in the microbes and let sit vs a soil that they were not applied to...so I tend to go against the grain and still mix things directly into the soil...just based on my own personal experiences.



dank.Frank

Frank,

Have you tried the "recipe" that he is suggesting or are you just giving recommendations based on your own experience. My EXPERIENCE is that it is much easier to start with nothing, just peat, perlite, and ewc, and build your soil from that. Do you know EXACTLY what the calcium levels are in FFOF? or any of the major nutrients? That was the basis of my suggestion.

I also disagree with Frank's advice to mix in the mycos. Waste of money. Inoculate the roots when you plant and be done with it.

As for advertising, I was offering him an easier solution that I know works well and would save money in regards to sourcing all these products and trying to figure it out on his own or off your advice (when you are just guessing). It is based off of hours and hours of phone conversations and dinners with Clackamas Coot if that is what you are referring to. Then run in trials at a local horticulture college and tested for NPK and heavy metals in the lab. Can you same the same about your recommendations? Why so angry bro? I think Build a Soil might make a similar product now or even just Coot's neem crab kelp recipe would be better.

Lastly, it is much easier to top dress nutrients as a plant needs it than remove, as MM pointed out in the other thread on "burning." I'm all for recycling soil, but without knowing what you're starting with it makes it difficult to know what you'll end up with.