Organic Fanatic Collective

[vonforne]

Smurf, that was your 420th post. Good place for it.

 

[vonforne]

What is the correct definition of Organic Gardening?

What is OG? Well it very controversal based on who you talk to. Some OG people are strictly conservative in their gardening methods, while others are more adventureous and experimental. Some OG ideas are classical, ancient, and mystical. Other ideas are more modern, scientific, state of the art. Well what is it then?
This is not the best, but it is a good laymen definition of OG:

"ORGANIC GARDENING - the science and art of gardening by incorporating the entire landscape design and environment to improve and maximize the garden soil's health, structure, texture, as well as maximize the production and health of developing plants without using synthethic commercial fertilizers, pesticides, or fungicides."

1. Choose your plants to fit your garden, rather than insisting on growing picky and tempermental plants that require constant fertilizing.

2. Amend your soil with organic materials, e.g, break up clay with compost, rather than reaching for the gypsum right away.

3. Plant things that will attract and maintain a population of beneficial insects, etc., and cultivate the soil in such a way as to encourage good fungi and bacteria that will fight off the bad guys.

4. Never throw organic material in the trash...re-introduce it to your local slice of the biosphere!

Both organic and natural soil amendments are slow release, contain organic matter, and usually have a NPK ratio whose sum of the top 3 major nutrients is less than 20. They are usually designed from decomposed animal or vegetable remains or mineral rocks. They are designed to feed the soil microherd insoluble OM, not supply lots of available soluble plant nutrients.
Synthetic fertilizers have higher NPK because they are designed to chemically build the soluble nutrients of the soil without any organic matter. They also are not designed to feed the soil microherd. Synthetics are normally made from petroleum products or mineral salts.
There are actually 3 major classes of environmentally conscious gardeners today. (Note: none of these 3 classes believe in the use of synthetic fertilizers) They are all similar but also quite different:

1. Organic Gardening - these people don't use anything in their garden that has any potentially harmful chemicals, preservatives, colorings, etc. in their gardening strategies. The modern idealogies of this philosophy are based from men like Sir Albert Howard and J. I. Rodale and his family and company. They garden all year round regardless of weather or climate conditions. Economics, common sense, and environmental concerns drives the focus of this philosophy. All composting and green manuring techniques are key to this philosophy. Organic soil amendments are grass clippings, hay, straw, animal manures, human urine, leaves, dolomitic limestone, greensand, etc.

2. Biodynamic Gardening - these gardeners believe almost the same as the OG people, but they go to the next level. This philosophy was founded mainly by Rudolph Steiner. They believe strongly in gardening during appropriate astrological signs, religion, critical seasons of the year, etc. They are even very adamant about what organic materials goes into their compost at certain specifc times. (i.e. Special uses of comfrey and stinging nettle in compost piles during special times of the year) Their focus is not maximizing crop production like the OG people, but maximizing the physical and spiritual needs of nature. They use special soil amendments like stinging nettle, comfrey, yarrow, and dandelions in many of their gardening functions.

3. Natural Gardening - these gardeners are similar in the basic philosophy of the OG people, but not as strict in their choice of soil amendments. They will use a safe natural product that has good organic matter in it, even if it contains a minimum use of preservatives, colorings, etc. Natural soil amendments are blood meal, bone meal, fish emulsion, kelp spray, cottonseed meal, cattle feeds, etc.
4. Permaculture and other forms of sustainable farming - Permaculture in laymen terms is basically an extreme form of organic gardening where the farmer can only use materials on his/her farm to recycle to make compost, soil amendments, fertilizers, etc. for his farm. No buying or getting of organic material or natural fertilizers from outside or commercial sources.

To make things even more complicated, the USDA has redefined certain guidelines and regulations for any farners who want to be classified as "USDA certified organic"!
The truth is, almost all environmentally conscious gardeners cross over back and forth between these 4 major classes. You as a gardener have to decide for yourself which philosophy style best fits your needs.
Happy Gardening!

#1000th here at the OFC.

 

[Suby]

Hello All,

Vman ty for posting your 100oth in this little slice of organic heaven we call the OFC.
It seems organics growers wear many badges but they have fundamentally understood 1 principle, mother nature does it best.

I spent alot of time researching biodynamics and although they often come off as nutjobs they have valid points for many of the choices they make, it has long been believed by hippies that "harvest moon" is the best time to harvest your outdoor MJ crops.
There is an increasing concern that slaughter house waste and waste water sludge is being used as organic components, this means we feed things we eat and smoke with shit, guabos, EWC, all fall into this category but again we have to carefull with labels.
It stands to reason if blood and bone meal are made from the remains of unhealthy or hormoned boosted cattle then it's not the ideal component for gardening and I have to agree the idea of using waste water sludge or septic tank refuse to feed to the wheat and grass fields we use to feed our cattle is not the way to go.
There is a fundamental problem within growing marijuana and it is that it has a high demand for nutrient rich fertilizer, almost any other crop can reach it's potential using a much less agressive feeding regime, most don't think much of it because they have little experience growing anything other than MJ.
A new trend in organics is not to use any slaughter house wate or human waste, foliars, teas, composts, these are they're arsenal, this is in te agricultural sector of course. My chemist friend turned me on to this a long time ago, I just found it very difficult to find the ingredients or the raw elements to make grows like this possible.

I think the essential ingredient is the drive to find a natural balance, to grow in tune with mother nature and be ready to change our assumptions and make the most of materials and elements that are readily availble and make these themes not only in what we smoke but what we eat and how we live.

Peace All

Suby

 

[vonforne]

Good job everyone. We made it.

 

[vonforne]

Compiled 3LB info
Simple Soil Recycling by the 3LB

I am not the 3LB, but i do like the way they do things... I plan on doing 100% organics because ive been getting headaches from the hydroponic grown crap. This is an excerpt I found from another thread.

ok here goes . . .

in the beginning God made earth also variously known as soil/dirt/sand/clay/loam etc . . . and then later Miracle-it-Grows made a mockery of the term soil and this begat hydroponics (just so no one tries to take this literally and accuse the bird’s of spreading misinformation - yes we know miracle grow soil didn’t cause the rise of hydroponics - but it makes a nice introduction story!). . . and thus began the three_little_birds efforts to bring real dirt back into indoor farming . . .

Farmer's don't throw out their topsoil after a crop, so we've always found the suggestion that folks dispose of soil after every indoor crop kind of ridiculous . . . we set out to disprove those folks who said that soil needed to be disposed of and in the process we've found our soil actually grew more fertile with time and some effort!

what will it take to use your soil over and over . . . time . . .dedication . . .a willingness (and ability) to do a lil physical labor . . . our process will involve some observation on the soil makers part . . .and you'll need to do a lil thinking . . . you will have to avoid salt and chemical ferts at all costs and build a collection of boxes or containers of different organic amendments sitting around on shelves . . .

we started with a standard soil mix pretty much like everyone else . . . when choosing a beginning organic soil we look for products like FoxFarm OceanForest or Mushroom Compost (at least the "shroom post" we find) that are often more "tree fiber" based rather than built with peat moss . . . we prefer these as our primary component over soil mixes like ProMix or SunshineMix that are mostly peat which is more acidic . . . if you plan on reusing your soil just once or twice then the peat mixes will probably work fine . . . but if you hope to use your soil endlessly like at the bird's nest then we'd say not more than 50% peat based mix to 50% tree fiber mix . . .

for the first grow prior to recycling we used a more expensive potting soil mix like the FoxFarm and then mixed in about 1/3 cheap peat based organic soil mix that was mostly peat, perlite and sand . . . we grew a couple small crops from start to finish using Earth Juice organic fertilizers and dumped all the used soil in a big 50 gallon Rubbermaid tub (w/ lid) . . . when the tub was about 4/5ths full (appx. 40 gallons of used soil) we stopped adding soil and went to work . . .

that first pass on soil remixing we added bone meal, blood meal, kelp meal and dolomite lime to the used soil . . . to be quite honest our proportions have changed a lil bit over time but it was likely something in the range of 2 cups blood meal, 4 cups kelp meal, 4 cups bone meal and 4 cups of dolomite lime . . . we mixed all those ingredients into our soil and moistened and waited a month until it was time for more soil . . .

For our next grow we would have mixed in about equal proportions of fresh and remixed amended soil . . . about ½ used soil with ½ fresh new soil and perhaps a lil added perlite to make sure the soil stayed light . . . and ran that through another grow using moderate feedings with the Earth Juice ferts . . . again we collected the used soil as it finished in the 50 gallon Rubbermaid bins . . .

at this point we started using our soil as an indoor compost bin for indoor garden waste. . . we really didn’t want to dispose of our fan leaf and stem trim in the trash . . . so we began chopping our indoor garden wastes and mixing them into our soil . . . we had quite a build up of trim trash at one time and to be honest it didn’t break down that fast this first time . . . we turned the compost in that bin several times in the next couple of months to get that trim to decompose . . . it seemed like the stems never would break down . . . finally they kind of decomposed and we mixed that “composted” soil in with our normal remixed soil and thus our composted soil methods began . . .

the plants grown in that remixed soil containing compost were very strong . . . stronger still than their sisters in fresh soil and with our 50/50 fresh and used soil remix . . . so we started including some composted soil in with every mix . . . we stopped adding any fresh soil to the mix about this time as well . . . in honesty we’d run short on soil for the moment and decided to try 100% remix . . . it worked . . . and it worked well . . .

Now let’s fast forward to a day when all of the soil remix bins had just been freshly mixed and were still stabilizing . . . we were ready to move another container to our bloom room and there was plenty of our compost on hand but no soil ready . . . now if a person reads Ed Rosenthal or Cervantes they will usually see warnings against trying to grow plants in homemade compost . . . we never quite understood this since compost is great as a top dressing in the normal garden outdoors and such . . . but we were still concerned that the “experts” knew something we didn’t . . .

we filled a 2'x3' container w/ compost and transplanted the plants in simply hoping for the best . . . turns out there was no reason to worry at all . . . they grew HUGE . . . the next time we had enough indoor compost to experiment in this way again we did . . . and the results were again beyond our normal experience . . . a third “bumper crop” from pure compost convinced us that there were secrets in the soil . . .

this post is closing in on two pages in length on the word processor now . . . so it’d be best to come back with one more post describing the current state of ongoing soil recycling project at the bird’s nest . . . in concept and practice it’s actually quite simple . . . we add organic matter as available to our soil . . . amend with nutrient goodies . . . and treat it all with great care and love . . .

we’ll be back to share the love and our current soil methods . . . the secret may very well be in the soil . . . but the bird’s won’t be keeping any secrets ourselves on how our methods work . . .
wow thats alot to read lol but all great info.

When that was posted there was some discussion that went with it. That is usually left out on all the sites posting this guide, but theres still some valuable info in the replies thats not included so here are the 3lb repliues to some questions that followed.

3LB " old roots compost like anything else. and a few moving along with
the soil have never caused any harm in our grow. the most important
thing to remember is to keep your plants healthy and pest free from
the beginning. if disease or pests strike your soil it will need to
be discarded. otherwise we're still reusing the same soils in 2004
we used in 2003. and those were used in 2002 and 2001 and 2000 etc.
our methods may not be for everyone. and we strongly encourage folk
to use a keen eye to watch and "listen" closely to their plants.
when we open a container of our remixed soil after it's
"composted". it smells like fresh earth. and as long as that's the
case we plan to keep using ours. we are proud to report that
earthworms live in our soil re-mixes now. not the big fat
night crawlers that many folks associate with the word "worm". these
are smaller red wigglers. our container gardens aren't ideal habitat
for worms. they are really too shallow. so in many ways we are
amazed that worms manage to live in our indoor garden. and we use
fish ferts and earth juice ferts in fairly high concentrations.
again we are a little amazed that worms tolerate this. but we've
had plenty of worms (red wigglers) showing up in containers that had
been through their entire bloom cycle as they were being remixed for
recycling. we figure that's a good sign that our indoor soil is
healthy . .

------------------------------------------------------

green sand is a slow release K supplement. rock phosphate is a slow
release K supplement. both increase soil health and also contain a
large number of micro nutrients - though not so commonly used by
indoor gardeners, they are very common for soil building in outdoor
gardens . . .

---------------------------------------------------

since organic ferts are available more slowly than salt
manufactured ferts. the "lead time" with composting your soil gives
the beneficial bacteria time to start their work. this composting
time also allows soil pH to normalize and nute levels to settle
down/even out. we've done it ourselves when time and circumstance
dictated. and the only thing we noticed different when using the
soil immediately was that our plants seemed to suffer a little more
transplant stress. this always disappears within a couple of days
so is not a big concern. we'd guess that the "raw" nutes are a
little harsher on the roots than they would be after composting a
few weeks. as for ratios it's really something we rely on intuition
and the eyeball for (ok there's a bit of science too - shhhhhhh).
since we continue to feed with ferts throughout our grows. a good
place to start would be at about 1/2 the rate of something like
Vic's "super soil" for additional nutrients. that's a good
"baseline" anyway. these days we're probably using something in the
range of:

6-8 cups alfalfa meal
2-4 cups bone meal
2-4 cups kelp meal
4-8 cups dolomite lime

those are the basic ingredients. then we get into things like
humates and green sand and rock phosphate that we don't add every
time . . .

----------------------------------------------------------

dolomite lime should be available at Home Depot or Lowes kind of
stores. alfalfa meal can usually be found at feed stores. even
suburban areas have these near areas with stables. just about
anything can be found through www.groworganic.com but shipping
costs can get prohibitive . . . three_little_birds
(3 birds are better than 1)"

it takes a little more space, perhaps a bit more work, but I wouldn't do it any other way.



The birds went onto post their mix and talk more bout it, but I cant seem to find it. If anyone knows what post im talkin bout, please let me know.

I wrote some of it down...this is per 100 gallons dirt

8 cups alfalfa meal
8 cups Bonemeal
8 cups Kelp meal
8 cups dolomite
8 cups green sand
8 cups Rock Phosphate
8 cups Diatomacsious earth.


Thanks and any help is appreciated.
__________________

================================================== ===========

Organic Gold II - Molasses Guide by 3LB

I want to make it abudantly clear that this is copied and pasted from Overgrow from a user named three_little_birds (3LB). This is good stuff to know and implement. Without further ado:

(3LB) three_little_birds' complete guide to Molasses.

"There are a number of different nutrient and fertilizer companies selling a variety of additives billed as carbohydrate booster products for plants. Usually retailing for tens of dollars per gallon if not tens of dollars per liter, these products usually claim to work as a carbohydrate source for plants. A variety of benefits are supposed to be unlocked by the use of these products, including the relief of plant stresses and increases in the rate of nutrient uptake. On the surface it sounds real good, and while these kinds of products almost always base their claims in enough science to sound good, reality doesn't always live up to the hype.

The 3LB are pretty well known for our distrust of nutrient companies like Advanced Nutrients who produce large lines of products (usually with large accompanying price tags) claiming to be a series of magic bullets - unlocking the keys to growing success for new and experienced growers alike. One member of the three_little_birds grower's and breeder's collective decided to sample one of these products a while back, intending to give the product a fair trial and then report on the results to the community at Cannabis World.

Imagine, if you will, Tweetie bird flying off to the local hydroponics store, purchasing a bottle of the wonder product - Super Plant Carb! (not it's real name) - and then dragging it back to the birds nest. With a sense of expectation our lil bird opens the lid, hoping to take a peek and a whiff of this new (and expensive) goodie for our wonderful plants. She is greeted with a familiar sweet smell that it takes a moment to place. Then the realization hits her. . .

Molasses! The Super Plant Carb! smells just like Blackstrap Molasses. At the thought that she's just paid something like $15 for a liter of molasses, our Tweetie bird scowls. Surely she tells herself there must be more to this product than just molasses. So she dips a wing into the sweet juice ever so slightly, and brings it up to have a taste.

Much the same way a sneaky Sylvester cat is exposed by a little yellow bird saying - I thought I saw a puddy tat . . . I did I did see a puddy tat . . . and he's standing right there! - our Tweetie bird had discovered the essence of this product. It was indeed nothing more than Blackstrap Molasses, a quick taste had conformed for our Tweetie bird that she had wasted her time and effort lugging home a very expensive bottle of plant food additive. Molasses is something we already use for gardening at the Bird's Nest. In fact sweeteners like molasses have long been a part of the arsenal of common products used by organic gardeners to bring greater health to their soils and plants.

So please listen to the little yellow bird when she chirps, because our Tweetie bird knows her stuff. The fertilizer companies are like the bumbling Sylvester in many ways, but rather than picturing themselves stuffed with a little bird, they see themselves growing fat with huge profits from the wallets of unsuspecting consumers. Let us assure you it's not the vision of yellow feathers floating in front of their stuffed mouths that led these executives in their attempt to pounce on the plant growing public.

And the repackaging of molasses as plant food or plant additive is not just limited to the companies selling their products in hydroponic stores. Folks shopping at places like Wal-Mart are just as likely to be taken in by this tactic. In this particular case the offending party is Schultz® Garden Safe All Purpose Liquid Plant Food 3-1-5. This is a relatively inexpensive product that seems appealing to a variety of organic gardeners. Here's Shultz own description of their product.

Garden Safe Liquid Plant Foods are made from plants in a patented technology that provides plants with essential nutrients for beautiful flowers and foliage and no offensive smell. Plus they improve soils by enhancing natural microbial activity. Great for all vegetables, herbs, flowers, trees, shrubs and houseplants including roses, tomatoes, fruits, and lawns. Derived from completely natural ingredients, Garden Safe All Purpose Liquid Plant Food feeds plants and invigorates soil microbial activity. Made from sugar beet roots! No offensive manure or fish odors.

That sure sounds good, and the three_little_birds will even go as far as to say we agree 100% with all the claims made in that little blurb of ad copy. But here's the problem, Shultz isn't exactly telling the public that the bottle of fertilizer they are buying is nothing more than a waste product derived from the production of sugar. In fact, Schultz® Garden Safe 3-1-5 Liquid Plant Food is really and truly nothing more than a form molasses derived from sugar beet processing that is usually used as an animal feed sweetener. If you don't believe a band of birds, go ahead and look for yourself at the fine print on a Garden Safe bottle where it says - Contains 3.0% Water Soluble Nitrogen, 1.0% Available Phosphate, 5.0% Soluble Potash - derived from molasses.

The only problem we see, is that animal feed additives shouldn't be retailing for $7.95 a quart, and that's the price Shultz is charging for it's Garden Safe product. While we don't find that quite as offensive as Advanced Nutrients selling their CarboLoad product for $14.00 a liter, we still know that it's terribly overpriced for sugar processing wastes. So, just as our band of birds gave the scoop on poop in our Guano Guide, we're now about to give folks the sweet truth about molasses.

Is The Story Behind This Sweet Sticky Garden Goodness?
Molasses is a syrupy, thick juice created by the processing of either sugar beets or the sugar cane plant. Depending on the definition used, Sweet Sorghum also qualifies as a molasses, although technically it's a thickened syrup more akin to Maple Syrup than to molasses. The grade and type of molasses depends on the maturity of the sugar cane or beet and the method of extraction. The different molasses have names like: first molasses, second molasses, unsulphured molasses, sulphured molasses, and blackstrap molasses. For gardeners the sweet syrup can work as a carbohydrate source to feed and stimulate microorganisms. And, because molasses (average NPK 1-0-5) contains potash, iron, sulfur, and many trace minerals, it can serve as a nutritious soil amendment. Molasses is also an excellent chelating agent.

Several grades and types of molasses are produced by sugar cane processing. First the plants are harvested and stripped of their leaves, and then the sugar cane is usually crushed or mashed to extract it’s sugary juice. Sugar manufacturing begins by boiling cane juice until it reaches the proper consistency, it is then processed to extract sugar. This first boiling and processing produces what is called first molasses, this has the highest sugar content of the molasses because relatively little sugar has been extracted from the juice. Green (unripe) sugar cane that has been treated with sulphur fumes during sugar extraction produces sulphured molasses. The juice of sun-ripened cane which has been clarified and concentrated produces unsulphured molasses. Another boiling and sugar extraction produces second molasses which has a slight bitter tinge to its taste.

Further rounds of processing and boiling yield dark colored blackstrap molasses, which is the most nutritionally valuable of the various types of molasses. It is commonly used as a sweetner in the manufacture of cattle and other animal feeds, and is even sold as a human health supplement. Any kind of molasses will work to provide benefit for soil and growing plants, but blackstrap molasses is the best choice because it contains the greatest concentration of sulfur, iron and micronutrients from the original cane material. Dry molasses is something different still. Its not exactly just dried molasses either, it's molasses sprayed on grain residue which acts as a carrier.

Molasses production is a bit different when it comes to the sugar beet. You might say birds know beets because one of our flock grew up near Canada's sugar beet capitol in Alberta. Their family worked side by side with migrant workers tending the beet fields. The work consisted of weeding and thinning by hand, culling the thinner and weaker plants to leave behind the best beets. After the growing season and several hard frosts - which increase the sugar content - the beets are harvested by machines, piled on trucks and delivered to their destination.

At harvest time, a huge pile of beets will begin to build up outside of the sugar factory that will eventually dwarf the factory itself in size. Gradually throughout the winter the pile will diminish as the whole beets are ground into a mash and then cooked. The cooking serves to reduce and clarify the beet mash, releasing huge columns of stinky (but harmless) beet steam into the air. Sometimes, if the air is cold enough, the steam will fall to the ground around the factory as snow!

As we've already learned, in the of sugar cane the consecutive rounds of sugar manufacturing produce first molasses and second molasses. With the humble sugar beet, the intermediate syrups get names like high green and low green, it's only the syrup left after the final stage of sugar extraction that is called molasses. After final processing, the leftover sugar beet mash is dried then combined with the thick black colored molasses to serve as fodder for cattle. Sugar beet molasses is also used to sweeten feed for horses, sheep, chickens, etc.

Sugar beet molasses is only considered useful as an animal feed additive because it has fairly high concentrations of many salts including calcium, potassium, oxalate, and chloride. Despite the fact that it's not suitable for human consumption and some consider it to be an industrial waste or industrial by-product, molasses produced from sugar beets makes a wonderful plant fertilizer. While humans may reject beet molasses due to the various extras the sugar beet brings to the table, to our plants it's a different story. Sugar beet molasses is usually fairly chemical free as well, at least in our experience. Although farmers generally fertilize their fields in the spring using the various arrays of available fertilizers, weed chemicals (herbicides) are not used for this crop due to the beet plant's relatively delicate nature.

There is at least one other type of molasses we are aware of, and that would be sorghum molasses. It's made from a plant known as sweet sorghum or sorghum cane in treatments somewhat similar to sugar beets and/or sugar cane processing. If our understanding is correct, sorghum molasses is more correctly called a thickened syrup rather than a by-product of sugar production. So in our eyes sorghum molasses is probably more like Maple Syrup than a true molasses.

In the distant past sorghum syrup was a common locally produced sweetener in many areas, but today it is fairly rare speciality product that could get fairly pricey compared to Molasses. Because sorghum molasses is the final product of sweet sorghum processing, and blackstrap and sugar beet molasses are simply waste by-products of sugar manufacturing, it's pretty easy to understand the difference in expense between the products. The word from the birds is - there isn't any apparent advantage to justify the extra expense of using sorghum molasses as a substitute for blackstrap or sugar beet molasses in the garden. So if you find sorghum molasses, instead of using it in your garden, you'll probably want to use it as an alternate sweetener on some biscuits.

That's a quick birds eye look at the differences between the various types and grades of molasses and how they are produced. Now it's time to get a peek at the whys and hows of using molasses in gardening.


Why Molasses?
The reason nutrient manufacturers have discovered molasses is the simple fact that its a great source of carbohydrates to stimulate the growth of beneficial microorganisms. Carbohydrates is really just a fancy word for sugar, and molasses is the best sugar for horticultural use. Folks who have read some of our prior essays know that we are big fans of promoting and nourishing soil life, and that we attribute a good portion of our growing success to the attention we pay to building a thriving micro-herd to work in concert with plant roots to digest and assimilate nutrients. We really do buy into the old organic gardening adage - Feed the soil not the plant.

Molasses is a good, quick source of energy for the various forms of microbes and soil life in a compost pile or good living soil. As we said earlier, molasses is a carbon source that feeds the beneficial microbes that create greater natural soil fertility. But, if giving a sugar boost was the only goal, there would be lot's of alternatives. We could even go with the old Milly Blunt story of using Coke on plants as a child, after all Coke would be a great source of sugar to feed microbes and it also contains phosphoric acid to provide phosphorus for strengthening roots and encouraging blooming. In our eyes though, the primary thing that makes molasses the best sugar for agricultural use is it's trace minerals.

In addition to sugars, molasses contains significant amounts of potash, sulfur, and a variety of micronutrients. Because molasses is derived from plants, and because the manufacturing processes that create it remove mostly sugars, the majority of the mineral nutrients that were contained in the original sugar cane or sugar beet are still present in molasses. This is a critical factor because a balanced supply of mineral nutrients is essential for those beneficial beasties to survive and thrive. That's one of the secrets we've discovered to really successful organic gardening, the micronutrients found in organic amendments like molasses, kelp, and alfalfa were all derived from other plant sources and are quickly and easily available to our soil and plants. This is especially important for the soil micro-herd of critters who depend on tiny amounts of those trace minerals as catalysts to make the enzymes that create biochemical transformations. That last sentence was our fancy way of saying - it's actually the critters in live soil that break down organic fertilizers and feed it to our plants.

One final benefit molasses can provide to your garden is it's ability to work as a chelating agent. That's a scientific way of saying that molasses is one of those magical substances that can convert some chemical nutrients into a form that's easily available for critters and plants. Chelated minerals can be absorbed directly and remain available and stable in the soil. Rather than spend a lot of time and effort explaining the relationships between chelates and micronutrients, we are going to quote one of our favorite sources for explaining soil for scientific laymen.

Micronutrients occur, in cells as well as in soil, as part of large, complex organic molecules in chelated form. The word chelate (pronounced KEE-late) comes from the Greek word for claw which indicates how a single nutrient ion is held in the center of the larger molecule. The finely balanced interactions between micronutrients are complex and not fully understood. We do know that balance is crucial; any micronutrient, when present in excessive amounts, will become a poison, and certain poisonous elements, such as chlorine are also essential micronutrients.
For this reason natural, organic sources of micronutrients are the best means of supplying them to the soil; they are present in balanced quantities and not liable to be over applied through error or ignorance. When used in naturally chelated form, excess micronutrients will be locked up and prevented from disrupting soil balance.
Excerpted from The Soul of Soil
by Grace Gershuny and Joe Smillie

Thats not advertising hype either, no product being sold there. Thats just the words of a pair of authors who have spent their lives studying, building, and nurturing soils.

Molasses ability to act as a chelate explains it's presence in organic stimulant products like Earth Juice Catalyst. Chelates are known for their ability to unlock the potential of fertilizers, and some smart biological farmers we know are using chelating agents (like Humic Acid) to allow them to make dramatic cuts in normal levels of fertilizer application.

One way to observe this reaction at work would be to mix up a solution of one part molasses to nine parts water and then soak an object which is coated with iron rust (like a simple nail for instance) in that solution for two weeks. The chelating action of the molasses will remove the mineral elements of the rust and hold them in that claw shaped molecule that Grace and Joe just described.

As we've commented on elsewhere, its not always possible to find good information about the fertilizer benefits of some products that aren't necessarily produced as plant food. But we've also found that by taking a careful look at nutritional information provided for products like molasses that can be consumed by humans, we can get a pretty decent look at the nutrition we can expect a plant to get as well.

There are many brands of molasses available, so please do not look at our use of a particular brand as an endorsement, our choice of Brer Rabbit molasses as an example is simply due to our familiarity with the product, one of our Grandmothers preferred this brand.

Brer Rabbit Blackstrap Molasses
Nutritional Information and Nutrition Facts: Serving Size: 1Tbsp. (21g). Servings per Container: About 24. Amount Per Serving: Calories - 60;
Percentage Daily Values; Fat - 0g, 0%; Sodium - 65mg. 3%; Potassium - 800 mg. 23%; Total Carbohydrates - 13g, 4%; Sugars - 12g, Protein - 1g, Calcium - 2%; Iron 10%; Magnesium 15%; Not a significant source of calories from fat, sat. fat, cholesterol, fiber, Vitamin A, and Vitamin C."

Hows of Molasses
Undoubtedly some folks are to the point where they are ready for our flock to cut to the chase. All the background about molasses making and the various kinds of molasses is good, and knowing how molasses works as a fertilizer is great too, but by now many of you may be thinking - isn't it about time to learn how to actually use this wonder product?! So this section of the Molasses Manual is for our birdie buds who are ready, waiting, and wanting to get going with bringing the sticky goodness of molasses into their garden.

Molasses is a fairly versatile product, it can serve as a plant food as well as an additive to improve a fertilizer mix or tea. Dry molasses can be used as an ingredient in a fertilizer mix, and liquid molasses can be used alone or as a component in both sprays and soil drenches. Your personal preferences and growing style will help to decide how to best use this natural sweetener for it's greatest effect in your garden.

We will try and address the use of dry molasses first, although we will openly admit this is an area where we have little actual experience with gardening use. We've certainly mixed dry molasses into animal feed before, so we're not totally unfamiliar with its use. Folks may remember from our earlier description of the various kinds of molasses that dry molasses is actually a ground grain waste carrier which has been coated with molasses. This gives dry molasses a semi-granular texture that can be mixed into a feed mix (for animals) or a soil mix (for our favorite herbs). Dry molasses has a consistency that was described by one bird as similar to mouse droppings or rat turds, (folks had to know we'd fit a manure reference in here somehow).

The best use we can envision for dry molasses in the herb garden is to include it in some sort of modified super-soil recipe, like Vic High originally popularized for the cannabis community. As we admitted, the use of dry molasses in soil mixes isnt something we have personal experience with, at least not yet. We are planning some experiments to see how a bit of dry molasses will work in a soil mix. We believe that moderate use should help stimulate micro-organisms and also help in chelating micronutrients and holding them available for our herbs. The plan is to begin testing with one cup of dried molasses added per 10 gallons of soil mix and then let our observations guide the efforts from there.

Another option for molasses use in the garden is its use alone as a fertilizer. The Schultz Garden Safe Liquid Plant Food is a perfect example of the direct application of molasses as a plant food. Garden Safe products are available from a variety of sources, including Wal-Mart. Although we consider them overpriced for a sugar beet by-product, Garden Safe products are fairly cost effective, especially compared to fertilizers obtained from a hydroponics or garden store, and they can serve as a good introduction to molasses for the urban herb gardener.

Here are the basic instructions a gardener would find on the side of a bottle of this sugar beet by-product - Mix Garden Safe Liquid All Purpose Plant Food in water. Water plants thoroughly with solution once every 7-14 days in spring and summer, every 14-30 days in fall and winter. Indoors, use 1/2 teaspoon per quart (1 teaspoon per gallon); outdoors, 1 teaspoon per quart (4 teaspoons per gallon). 32 fluid ounces (946ml). Contains 3.0% Water Soluble Nitrogen, 1.0% Available Phosphate, 5.0% Soluble Potash derived from molasses.

In our own experience with Garden Safe Liquid fertilizers, weve used a pretty close equivalent to the outdoor rate on indoor herbs with some good success. Our best application rate for Garden Safe 3-1-5 ended up being around 1 Tablespoon per gallon ( 1 Tablespoon = 3 teaspoons). Used alone it’s really not a favorite for continuos use, since we dont see Garden Safe 3-1-5 as a balanced fertilizer. It doesnt have enough phosphorous to sustain good root growth and flower formation in the long term. Its best use would probably be in an outdoor soil grow where there are potential pest issues. Animal by-products like blood meal and bone meal are notorious for attracting varmints, so Garden Safe sugar beet molasses fertilizers could provide an excellent plant based source of Nitrogen and Potassium for a soil thats already been heavily amended with a good slow release source of phosphorous, our choice would be soft rock phosphate.

Blackstrap molasses could also be used in a similar fashion, as a stand alone liquid fertilizer for the biological farmer who needs to avoid potential varmint problems caused by animal based products. But, we really believe there is a better overall use for molasses in the organic farmer's arsenal of fertilizers. Our suggestion for the best available use, would be to make use of the various molasses products as a part making organic teas for watering and foliar feeding.

Since many of the folks reading this are familiar with our Guano Guide, it will come as no surprise to our audience that molasses is a product we find very useful as an ingredient in Guano and Manure teas. Most bat and seabird guanos are fairly close to being complete fertilizers, with the main exception being that they are usually short in Potassium. Molasses is turns out is a great source of that necessary Potassium. As we learned earlier, molasses also acts as a chelating agent and will help to make micronutrients in the Guano more easily available for our favorite herbs.

A good example of a guano tea recipe at the Bird’s Nest is really as simple as the following:
1 Gallon of water
1 TBSP of guano (for a flowering mix we'd use Jamaican or Indonesian Bat Guano - for a more general use fertilizer we would choose Peruvian Seabird Guano.)
1 tsp blackstrap or sugar beet molasses
We mix the ingredients directly into the water and allow the tea mix to brew for 24 hours. It's best to use an aquarium pump to aerate the tea, but an occasional shaking can suffice if necessary and still produce a quality tea. We will give you one hint from hard personal experience, make sure if you use the shake method that you hold the lid on securely, nobody appreciate having a crap milkshake spread over the room.

Some folks prefer to use a ladys nylon or stocking to hold the guano and keep it from making things messy, but we figure the organic matter the manure can contribute to the soil is a good thing. Using this method we feel like we are getting the benefits of a manure tea and a guano top-dressing all together in the same application. If you prefer to use the stocking method, feel free to feed the tea bag leftovers to your worm or compost bin, even after a good brewing theres lots of organic goodness left in that crap!

We also use molasses to sweeten and enrich Alfalfa meal teas. Our standard recipe for this use is:
4 gallons of water
1 cup of fine ground alfalfa meal
1 TBSP blackstrap or sugar beet molasses
After a 24 hour brew, this 100% plant-based fertilizer is ready for application. Alfalfa is a great organic plant food, with many benefits above and beyond just the N-P-K it can contribute to a soil mix or tea. We do plan to cover Alfalfa and it's many uses in greater detail soon in yet another thread. We prefer to mix our alfalfa meal directly into the tea, but many gardeners use the stocking tea bag method with great effectiveness, both work well, its really just a matter of personal preference.

The alfalfa tea recipe we described can be used as a soil drench, and also as a foliar feed. And foliar feeding is the final use of molasses we’d like to detail. Foliar feeding, for the unfamiliar, is simply the art of using fine mist sprays as a way to get nutrients directly to the plant through the minute pores a plant breathes through. It is by far the quickest and most effective way to correct nutrient deficiencies, and can be an important part of any gardeners toolbox.

Molasses is a great ingredient in foliar feeding recipes because of it's ability to chelate nutrients and bring them to the table in a form that can be directly absorbed and used by the plant. This really improves the effectiveness of foliar feeds when using them as a plant tonic. In fact it improves them enough that we usually can dilute our teas or mix them more lean - with less fertilizer - than we might use without the added molasses.

Of course it is possible to use molasses as a foliar feed alone, without any added guano or alfalfa. It's primary use would be to treat plants who are deficient in Potassium, although molasses also provides significant boosts in other essential minerals such as Sulfur, Iron and Magnesium. Organic farming guides suggest application rates of between one pint and one quart per acre depending on the target plant. For growing a fast growing annual plant like cannabis, we'd suggest a recipe of 1 teaspoon molasses per gallon of water.

In all honesty, we'd probably suggest a foliar feeding with kelp concentrate as a better solution for an apparent Potassium shortage. Kelp is one of our favorite foliar feeds because it is a complete source of micronutrients in addition to being a great source of Potassium. Kelp has a variety of other characteristics that we love, and we plan that it will be the topic of it's own detailed thread at a future date. But, for growers that cannot find kelp, or who might have problems with the potential odors a kelp foliar feeding can create, molasses can provide an excellent alternative treatment for Potassium deficient plants at an affordable price.

That looks at most of the beneficial uses of Molasses for the modern organic or biological farmer. Just when you think that's all there could be from our beaks on the topic of molasses, that molasses and it's sweet sticky goodness surely have been covered in their entirety, the birds chirp in to say, there is one more specialized use for molasses in the garden. Magical molasses can also help in the control of Fire Ants, and perhaps some other garden pests.

Molasses For Organic Pest Control
One final benefit of molasses is it's ability to be used in the control of a couple of common pests encountered in gardening. The most commonly known use of molasses is it's ability to help control Fire Ants, but we've also found an internet reference to the ability of molasses to control white cabbage moths in the UK, so molasses could be an effective pest deterrent in more ways that we are aware.
As we said before, there are several references we've run across refering to the ability of molasses to control Fire Ants. Since we're not intimately familiar with this particular use of molasses, and rather than simply re-write and re-word another's work, we thought we'd defer to the experts. So for this section of the current version of the Molasses Manual, we will simply post a reference article we found that covers topic in better detail than we currently can ourselves.

Molasses Makes Fire Ants Move Out
By Pat Ploegsma, reprinted from Native Plant Society of Texas News
Summer 1999
Have you ever started planting in your raised beds and found fire ant highrises? Are you tired of being covered with welts after gardening? Put down that blowtorch and check out these excellent organic and non-toxic solutions.

Malcolm Beck1, organic farmer extraordinaire and owner of Garden-Ville Inc., did some experiments that showed that molasses is a good addition to organic fertilizer (more on fertilizer in the next issue). When using molasses in the fertilizer spray for his fruit trees he noticed that the fire ants moved out from under the trees. I got an opportunity to see if molasses really moved fire ants. In my vineyard, I had a 500 foot row of root stock vines cut back to a stump that needed grafting. The fire ants had made themselves at home along that row. The mounds averaged three feet apart. There was no way a person could work there without being eaten alive! I dissolved 4 tablespoons of molasses in each gallon of water and sprayed along the drip pipe. By the next day the fire ants had moved four feet in each direction. We were able to graft the vines without a single ant bothering us.
This gave him the idea for developing an organic fire ant killer that is 30% orange oil and 70% liquid compost made from manure and molasses. The orange oil softens and dissolves the ant's exoskeleton, making them susceptible to attack by the microbes in the compost, while the molasses feeds the microbes and also smothers the ants. After the insects are dead, everything becomes energy-rich soil conditioner and will not harm any plant it touches. It can be used on any insect including mosquitoes and their larvae.
Break a small hole in the crust in the center of the mound then quickly!!! pour the solution into the hole to flood the mound and then drench the ants on top. Large mounds may need a second application. Available at Garden-Ville Square in Stafford, it has a pleasant lemonade smell.
According to Mark Bowen2, local landscaper and Houston habitat gardening expert, fire ants thrive on disturbed land and sunny grassy areas. “Organic matter provides a good habitat for fire ant predators such as beneficial nematodes, fungi, etc. Other conditions favoring fire ant predators include shading the ground with plantings, good soil construction practices and use of plants taller than turfgrasses. He recommends pouring boiling soapy water over shallow mounds or using AscendTM. Ascend is a fire ant bait which contains a fungal by-product called avermectin and a corn and soybean-based grit bait to attract fire ants. Ascend works slowly enough to get the queen or queens and it controls ants by sterilizing and/or killing them outright.
Malcolm Beck also did some experiments with Diatomaceous Earth - DE - (skeletal remains of algae which is ground into an abrasive dust) which confirmed that DE also kills fire ants. He mixes 4 oz. of DE into the top of the mound with lethal results. According to Beck, DE only works during dry weather on dry ant mounds. Pet food kept outdoors will stay ant free if placed on top of a tray with several inches of DE

1Beck, Malcolm. The Garden-Ville Method: Lessons in Nature. Third Edition. San Antonio, TX: Garden-Ville, Inc., 1998.
2Bowen, Mark, with Mary Bowen. Habitat Gardening for Houston and Southeast Texas. Houston, TX: River Bend Publishing Company, 1998.



As we had also mentioned earlier, while researching the uses of molasses in gardening, we also came across a reference to it’s use in the control of white cabbage moths. Here’s what we found on that particular topic.

I came across this home remedy from the UK for white cabbage moths.

Mix a tablespoon of molasses in 1 litre of warm water and let cool..
spray every week or every 2 weeks as required for white cabbage
moth..they hate it..and I think
it would be good soil conditioner as well if any drops on your soil..
It works for me...but gotta do it before white butterfly lays
eggs...otherwise you might have to use the 2 finger method and squash
grubs for your garden birds..

"nutNhoney" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To the kind soul who posted the tip for spraying members of the cabbage
> family with a molasses solution, thank you so much. Today, I noticed a
> white moth hovering around my brussel sprouts. I quickly made up a
> solution of molasses and rushed back to the garden to spray. The moth
> did not land! It seemed to be repelled by the molasses. I sprayed the
> broccoli too for good measure. I think I will spray again for the next
> few days. If it keeps the cabbage caterpillars off, I will be so happy.
> Thanks again!

So there you have it, not necessarily straight from our mouths, but simply one more potential use we've discovered for molasses, with at least one testimonial for it's effectiveness. As we said before, the use of molasses as an foliar spray, in addition to it's potential use as a pest deterrent, would also serve to provide some essential nutrients directly to our plants, and would especially serve as an effective boost of Potassium for plants diagnosed with a deficiency in K. Healthy plants are more resistant to the threat of pests or disease, so molasses really is a multi-purpose organic pest deterrent.

Well folks, there you have it, the Molasses Manual by the three_little_birds.

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Well here goes ... First up the Guano Guide. These were always meant to remain works in progress, so keep that in mind as you read through. The article appears with some editing.

Guano Guide-The Scoop on Poop by the 3LB~CW

The three_little_birds manual on manure - it's the shit!

"Birds love the oil rich seeds of this fruitful plant and in their ecstasies of eating have swallowed many seeds whole. Throughout the ages Cannabis has flown here and there in the bellies of birds and then found itself plopped down on the earth in a pile of poop, ready to go."
Bill Drake
Marijuana - The Cultivator's Handbook - 1979

Some ancient Italian in a proverb-making mood observed, "Hemp will grow anywhere, but without manure, though it were planted in heaven itself, it will be of no use at all." How lucky it is for Hemp to find Heaven in a pile of birdshit. How fortunate for the birds to find themselves high. How fortunate for the first men and women to notice how the little singing creatures became euphoric after eating the seeds of the tall, strong smelling plant. The planet is tight."
Bill Drake
Marijuana - The Cultivator's Handbook - 1979


Growing up on a small family farm, one of the three little bird’s childhood memories include complaining to her father about being surrounded by the terrible smell of wastes from the livestock they were raising.

"Sweetheart, that's not stink . . . That's the smell of money," was Dad's reply.

She certainly understood the value of the livestock her family was raising for profit, which was where Daddy's money came from. Early on, she also made the connection between the farm animals and the tasty meat on their own table.

She understood another ironic meaning for her Dad's statement when one of her first paying jobs came shoveling stock barns at a State Fair. And finally, one day as she appreciated the fine aroma of some beautiful blooming wildflowers growing in a recently grazed pasture, she also began to understand the role manure plays as a fertilizer in making our soils rich and productive. Her Father’s saying about manure smelling like money was a few simple words, but, as was often the case with his wisdom, it held many meanings.

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The use of manure in agriculture is an age-old and time-honored tradition. Manure has been used as a soil amendment and fertilizer since before mankind first began recording words and symbols in writing. Scientists as prominent as Carl Sagan have suggested that the very first cultivated agricultural crop was likely cannabis. It’s possible that the mingling of manure and marijuana goes all the way back to the very beginning of mankind's attempts to grow crops for a purpose, rather than surviving by simple hunting and gathering.

Under the influence of some fine herb, it becomes simple to imagine going back in time. Looking back, in the mind’s eye we can see a tribe of nomadic people looking similar to modern man, but leading a primitive hunter-gatherer existence. We can imagine the clan following available game while taking advantage of locally available fruits and nuts. These men (and women) were not necessarily bigger or stronger than the wild animals they competed against for survival, but they were smarter. And during those seasonal migrations, one of those very distant ancestors likely noticed that their favorite herb plants were thriving especially well in areas where their nomadic tribe disposed of wastes near their seasonal camps.

They may have realized that the very herds of animals their clan had been following helped to distribute and nourish the plants they favored. Perhaps, as Bill Drake suggests, it was a discovery from a pile of birdshit where it all began. Regardless of where it started, with a little more thought, our ancestors realized that crops could be fertilized, and even grown with a purpose. Some speculate that this is how agriculture was born; that it all began with a fortuitously placed pile of shit.
In the end folks can call it what they like. Whether it's a fancier name like castings or guano, or one of the more common names like crap, poop, manure, or dung. In the end it's all just shit! The three_little_birds want you to know, however, that it can be very good shit. We want you to know that manures are one of the keys to unlocking the awesome potential of organic gardening.

In the immeasurable time prior to the invention of agriculture, before man began to till the soil, dead and rotting vegetation naturally returned to the earth as rich and fertile humus. In traditional forms of farming, our ancestors learned to use the components of animal dung and bedding wastes in a sustainable fashion. Before the discovery of chemical fertilizers and pesticides, manure was used as a resource, not a waste product. Natural humus, built up during the ages before agriculture, was replaced by manure, rich in nitrogen and other elements that plants depend upon. Today, that is no longer true.

From an environmental perspective, manure is a resource that is being wasted at a terrible rate. In some agricultural areas where a large number of livestock are concentrated and raised, manure is not a resource, but rather, it has become an environmental hazard. Consider, for instance, that a single hog will produce 3000 pounds of manure in under a year. It’s easy to see then how the large concentration of wastes found in corporate factory farms can rival a good-sized city for the total volume of organic waste produced.

According to one estimate, the USA alone has something in the range of 175 million farms animals. That multitude of animals excretes over two billion tons of waste per year. Due to mismanagement, misuse, and ignorance, very few of the potential nutrients from these wastes are returned to the land, less than 20% according to some estimates. Instead, this incredible mass of manure threatens to pollute river, streams, lakes, and even the subterranean groundwater that supplies many folk with their drinking water.

Therefore, finding proper solutions for the treatment and disposal of all that manure, in an economically feasible fashion, is an absolute necessity of modern agriculture. In the end, good stewardship requires sustainable farming practices that concentrate on finding a balance on the farm. So, as long as humans raise and consume animal livestock, as long as we keep animals such as horses for purpose or pleasure, it is wise to properly use manure to build and sustain our soil.

As a side note, one advanced form of gardening, vegan organics, does offer hope for budding organic gardeners who will have nothing to do with the use of manures and guanos. We mention this since some folk might be dismissive of the very thought of handling animal dung, and some indoor gardeners might be repelled by the thought of bringing it into their homes or grow areas. Perhaps for some folk this will be enough reason to decide this particular form of organic gardening is not for them.

We hope not because working with manures in your garden does not have to include large messes or smells . . . it's just a question of knowing your shit!

For a simple definition, manure is the dung and urine of animals. It is made up of undigested and partially digested food particles, as well as a cocktail of digestive juices and bacteria. As much as 30% of the total mass of manure may be bacteria, so it should be no surprise that dung can serve as excellent inoculants for a compost pile. Mixing manure in your compost can provide all the necessary bacterial populations to quickly and efficiently break down all the other materials common to the heap.

Manures can contain the full range of major, minor, and micronutrients that our plants need for strong health and vigor. Most manure will contain these nutrients in forms that are readily available to plants. The organic components of manure will continue to break down slowly over time, providing food for plants in the longer term as well. When composted with even longer-lived rock fertilizers such as Rock Phosphate or Greensand, manures can be used for true long-term soil building.

In addition to providing excellent service to gardeners as a potential fertilizer and soil builder, guanos and manures can also both be effectively applied as teas. Manure and guano teas act as fertilizers, providing available nutrients in forms easily assimilated by plants. They also serve as very effective inoculants of many beneficial bacteria

The nutrient value of manures can vary significantly from species to species, due to different digestive systems and feeding patterns. Even within a species, the fertilizer content of dung will vary depending on factors such as diet, the animal’s general health, as well as their age. Young animals devote much of their energy to growth, so their manure will be poorer in nutrients than that of mature animals. A lot full of baby pigs on starter feed will deposit wastes with a different nutrient value than the wastes produced by a lot full of swine ready to go to market.

An animal’s diet certainly plays a factor as well. The Rodale Book on Composting (an excellent resource) uses the example of an animal fed only straw and hay. The waste from that animal will be significantly different in nutrient content when compared to a sibling fed a diet including more nutritious feed such as wheat bran, cottonseed meal, or gluten meal.

The purpose an animal is used and bred for can even cause the nutrient value of a manure to vary. Dairy cows serve here as an excellent example. Milk production is somewhat taxing, even to a dairy cow. In addition to large amounts of calcium, milk also contains high levels of nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium, the three primary plant nutrients. Since so many nutrients are being used to produce milk, less actual plant fertilizer will be available in those animal wastes for soil building.

Another factor that will change the fertilizer value of manure is relative age and the way it has been handled. Manures left exposed to the elements will quickly lose their nutrient value. Rain can quickly leach soluble nutrients from manure. A thin pile of crap can lose as much as one half of its fertilizer value in under a week. To fully capture the nutrient potential of manure, it’s necessary to compost the shit quickly while it’s still fresh.

With the exception of guanos (which are mined fossilized waste deposits) and castings (which are mild and well digested), it is generally advisable to compost wastes and manures before direct use in your garden. When added directly to soil, fresh manures can act in a similar fashion to chemical fertilizers. The Nitrogen in fresh manures (ammonia and highly soluble nitrates) can burn delicate plant root systems and even interfere with seed germination.

Another good reason to compost manures before use is the fact that some animal manure can be full of weed seeds. Proper high temperature composting techniques can kill those unwanted guests as well as many potential soil pathogens. Used alone, animal manures may not be completely balanced fertilizers. However, once the manures have been properly amended and composted, any imbalances can be easily corrected and the manure itself can be broken down and digested into nutrients that are both balanced and available for our favorite plants and herbs.

Proper composting will actually increase nutrient value in manure. Some types of bacteria in a compost pile will “fix” nitrogen. This preserves this essential nutrient by preventing escape as gaseous ammonia. If the conscientious composter prevents leaching, all of the original phosphorus and potassium can be preserved. As an added benefit, the composting process will increase the solubility of these nutrients.

We want to continue our discourse with a simple listing of manures that can be used to good effect by budding gardeners. But, we would be remiss if we did not begin by first discussing the few manures we believe are NOT suitable for use in gardening.

Human wastes, as well as the wastes of domestic cats and dogs, are considered totally unsuitable for use as fertilizer. DO NOT GARDEN WITH THESE WASTES! With these sources, too large a potential exists for the spread of deadly parasites and disease. Just say no to any suggestion for the use of those few manure sources.

That said, there are a great variety of guanos, manures, and castings that are safe and available for use by the enterprising horticulturalist. The list includes but is not limited to:

• The Manures
1. Chicken Manure
2. Poultry Manures (including Duck, Pigeon & Turkey Manure)
3. Cattle Manure
4. Goat Manure
5. Horse Manure
6. Pig Manure
7. Rabbit Manure
8. Sheep Manure

• The Guanos
1. Bat Guano - (including Mexican, Jamaican, & Indonesian bat guanos)
2. Seabird Guano - (including Peruvian seabird guano)

• Miscellaneous Wastes / Manures
1. Earthworm Castings
2. Cricket Castings
3. Aquarium & Aquatic Turtle Wastewater
5. Green Manures

The Manures
Now it's time to describe the various manures and their unique attributes.

Bird Manures - are treated separately from animal manures since fowls don't excrete urine separately like mammals do. Because of this, bird manures tend to be "hotter". Overall they are much richer in many nutrients than animal manures, especially nitrogen. Because of their higher nutrient content, some growers prefer birdshit to the other animal manures.

Chicken Manure (1.1-1.4-0.6) - is the most common bird shit available for farmers. It's high in nitrogen and can easily burn plants unless composted first.
Feathers (often included with chicken manure) tend to further increase available nitrogen - an added bonus. A small amount of dried chicken manure can be used as a top-dressing or mixed in small concentrations directly into soil. Chicken manures are probably best used after complete composting. Chicken droppings are often composted with other manures as well as green matter, leaves, straw, shredded corncobs, or other convenient source of organic carbons. Chicken manure is also a common ingredient in some mushroom compost recipes. One potential concern for the budding organic farmer, is the large amount of antibiotics fed to domestic fowl in large production facilities. It is also suggested that some caution should be used when handling chicken droppings, whether fresh or dried. Dried chicken shit is very fine and is a lung irritant. Caution is also counseled since bird (and bat guanos) can carry spores that cause human respiratory disease, so please wear a mask when handling bird and bat guanos and fresh foul waste.

Poultry Manures (1.1-1.4-0.6) - are often simply chicken shit mixed also with the droppings of other domesticated birds including duck droppings, pigeon poop, and turkey turds. They are "hotter" than most animal droppings, and in general they can be treated like chicken shit.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Animal Manures vary by species, and also depending of how the animals are kept and manures are collected. Urine contains a large percentage of nitrogen and potassium. This means that animals boarded in a fashion where urine is absorbed with their feces (by straw or other similar bedding), can produce organic compost that is richer in nutrients.

Cattle Manure (0.6-0.2-0.5) - is considered "cold" manure since it is moister and less concentrated than most other animal shit. It breaks down and gives off nutrients fairly slowly. Cow shit is an especially good source of beneficial bacteria, because of the complex bovine digestive system. Cow digestion includes regurgitation (cows chew their "cud") and a series of stomachs, all evolved to help cows more fully digest grasses. Since cow manure is more fully digested, it also is less likely to become a source of weed seeds than some other manure. Depending on your location, many sources of cattle manure can be from dairy cows. Recent expansion in the use of bovine growth hormones to increase milk production certainly could become a concern for organic farmers trying to source safe cattle manures. The healthier the cow, and the healthier the cow's diet, the more nutrients its manure will carry.

Goat Manure (0.7-0.3-0.9) - can be treated in a similar fashion to sheep dung or horse shit. It is usually fairly dry and rich and is a "hot" manure (therefore best composted before use).

Horse Manure (0.7-0.3-0.6) - is richer in nitrogen than cattle or swine manure, so it is a "hot" manure. A common source of horse manure is rural stables, where owners usually bed the beasts very well. Horse manures sourced from stables, therefore, may also contain large amounts of other organic matter such as wood shavings or straw with manure mixed in. Some sources of mushroom compost contain large quantities of horse manure and bedding in their mix. So from one standpoint, horseshit's use in herb growing is already fairly well documented. Horseshit, because it is hot, should be composted along with other manures and higher carbon materials, and in some cases wet down, to prevent it from cooking too hot and fast which destroys potential plant nutrients. As is true with all the different manures, healthier, well maintained animals will produce more nutritious and better balanced fertilizer. Since horses are usually well tended, this means horse manure from stables is usually a pretty good source for those in search of shit. Unfortunately, horse crap also contains a higher number of weed seeds than other comparable manure fertilizers.

Pig Manure (0.5-0.3-0.5) - is highly concentrated or "hot" manure. It is less rich in nitrogen than horse or bird crap, but stronger than many of the other animal manures. Swine crap is wetter overall than other mammal manures, and is often stored by farmers in the form of liquid slurry, that is mostly water. When allowed to dry, hog shit becomes a very fine dust, which can be a lung irritant. Pig shit is less likely to have nutrients "burn off" in the compost pile than horse manure, but is best used when mixed and composted with other manures and/or large quantities of vegetable matter.

Rabbit Manure (2.4-1.4-0.6) - is the hottest of the animal manures. It may even be higher in nitrogen than some poultry manures. As an added bonus it also contains fairly high percentages of phosphates. Because of it's high nitrogen content, rabbit crap is best used in small quantities (as a light top dressing or lightly mixed into soil) or composted before use. An excellent fertilizer by itself, some folks combine rabbit hutches with worm farms to create what is a potentially very rich source of nutritious worm castings. As with other animal manures, healthier animals fed a nutritious diet will produce a superior manure fertilizer.

Sheep Manure (0.7-0.3-0.9) - is another hot manure similar to horse or goat manure. It is generally high in nutrients and heats up quickly in a compost pile because it contains little water. Sheep and goat pellets, because they are lighter, are easier to handle than some other manures. Sheep shit contains relatively few weed seeds but more organic matter than other animal manures. As a side note, sheep farming is generally more destructive to the environment than cattle farming (or many other grazers). Sheep have a "split lip" allowing them to graze closer to the ground, so they tend to strip grass bare to the root. This heavy grazing kills many grasses, leaving earth more prone to destructive erosion. While it’s hardly considered environmentally friendly, cattle grazing is less heavy on the land than sheep farming.
The Guanos
Bat Guano
"There are, in Cuba, a great number of caves providing a considerable supply of the richest fertilizer. In these caves, where bats shelter, a fertilizer has accumulated, a true guano, the result of a mixture of solid and liquid excrement, the remains of the fruit that fed the animals, and their own carcasses. All these materials, sheltered from the sun, air and rain, form a rich mix of nitrogenous, carbonaceous and saline elements. They contain uric acid, ammonium urate, nitrates, phosphates and calcium carbonate, alkaline salts, etc. The huge quantity of guano amassed in some caves can be explained by the number of beasts that have sheltered there for so many years".

Alvaro Reinoso - "Ensayos sobre el cultivo de la caña de azúcar", ("Essays on sugar-cane cultivation"), Havana - 1862

Bat and seabird guanos are some of the most wonderful, extraordinary, versatile, naturally occurring organic fertilizers known to man. They are not considered to be a renewable resource, and they are sometimes mined in an environmentally destructive fashion, so environmentally conscious growers sometimes avoid guanos.

Bat Guano - Bat guano is found as deposits in some caves that have been inhabited by these little flying mammals. Bat crap can sometimes also be found in smaller quantities in other places bats inhabit (old or abandoned buildings, trees, etc.). Bat guano has many horticultural uses. Its presence can help to guarantee efficient soil regeneration. When used as a fertilizer or tea, bat crap fosters abundant harvests of a high quality, making it an invaluable agricultural fertilizer for producing outstanding organic herbs, fruits, and vegetables. Many dedicated organic farmers insist that bat guano brings out the best flavors in their organic herbs. The bottom line is bat guano has many excellent properties that give it great value for growing an organic product of the highest quality. It may very well be possible to justify the boast that bat guano is "superior to all other natural fertilizers".

Bat Guano consists primarily of excrement of bats (no surprises there - eh?) It also contains the remains of bats that lived and died in that location over many long years. Bat guano is usually found in caves, and bats are not the only residents. Therefore, bat guano almost certainly contains the remains and excrement of other critters such as insects, mice, snakes and (gasp!) even birds. And, guano is by no means just collected excrement and animal remains, as guano ages it can undergo a array of complex decomposition and leaching processes.

The fertilizer quality of any particular bat guano depends on variety of factors. These can include: the type of rock in which the guano cave formed, the feeding habits of the bat species producing the guano, the guano’s age, and the progress of mineralization in the guano (which undergoes an endless transformation through chemical and biological processes). Guano can appear in a wide range of colors including white, yellow, brown, hazel, gray, black, or red, but color does not indicate or influence its quality.

One of the factors that can determine the fertilizer quality of bat guano is the dietary habits of the different bat species who inhabit a cave. Some bats are vegetarian, eating primarily fruits. Other bats are carnivorous; their diet usually consists of insects and similar small critters. As an example, the specific form of nitrogen in guano will depend on the feeding habits of the bats living in the caves. Bats that feed on insects eject fragments of chitin, the main component of insects' exoskeletons. Chitin resists decomposition, and contributes a long lasting form of nitrogen that appears in many older guano deposits. Obviously, chitin from digested insect remains is not likely to be found in any quantity in the guano of fruit eating bats.

Even a cave’s location will effect the composition of guano deposits found within. Different chemical reactions during the actual cave making process result in different nutrient characteristics in the various guanos. Over time, guano combines in various ways with the actual rock and minerals from the bedrock of their region. Ultimately, minerals may be deposited throughout layers of guano by a variety of means. Minerals that have been dissolved in water filtering through porous rock from above can fortify guano deposits as they drip from cave ceilings. In caves where water filters through the guano, soluble elements will likely be washed out, so the composition of the guano changes in other ways as well.

In addition to minerals deposited by leaching water, another factor in guano composition is the huge amount of particulates that fall from the cave ceilings and walls where the bats sleep and hibernate. The release of their liquid excrement at high-pressure pounds cave walls, and the physical presence of the bats as they constantly flit about, both combine to cause erosion. Chemical reactions caused by the bat crap (as well as many natural cave making processes), also work to break down cave ceilings and walls. All of these factors result in an invisible rain of minute solid mineral particulates. All of these mineral particulates are mixed into the copious quantities of bat crap (and other matter) deposited on the floor. As a result, bat guanos have a wide range natural / organic source mineral nutrients that are immediately available for plants, called chelates.

Another large component of bat guano deposits is the “fauna” within, the great collection of microorganisms that work as decomposers. Their main function is to accelerate the process of breaking down organic matter in the guano. These beneficial bacteria populations work to increase the guano’s wealth of essential nutrients, and can provide their own benefit to gardeners as a soil innoculant.

Once bat guano is deposited, it begins and endless process of transformation. From fresh deposits, nitrogen is the essential element that is usually released first. This is partially as ammonia, with its characteristic strong smell, which is omnipresent in fresh guano. The rest of the nitrogen oxidizes and forms nitrates that are often dissolved and leached by water. The phosphorus contained in guano comes partly from bat excrement, but is generally from skeletal remains (it may also come from mineral elements in the cave.) Many of the decomposition processes work to concentrate phosphorous levels in bat guano deposits as they age, and this provides some of guano’s greatest value to gardeners. Potassium is often the least represented of the three essential macro-elements, due to the solubility of its compounds, which are usually washed out of guano deposits by natural cave conditions.

During decomposition the actual proportion of the different fertilizer components of the guano change. As the guano breaks down, the levels of organic matter, nitrogen, and potassium will fall. At the same time, the relative levels of calcium, phosphates, sand, and clay levels will rise. The actual excrement and remains of bats are the main source of the elements nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium in guano. The organic compounds in the excrement contain sulphur, phosphorus, and nitrogen. After decomposition and oxidation, these combine to form sulphuric, phosphoric, and nitric acids.


Over time, those acids react with mineral elements from cave rock to form a variety of mineral salts - including sulphates, phosphates, and nitrates. Leaching washes out most of the soluble compounds including the nitrates, sodium, and potassium compounds. At the same time, the insoluble phosphates and sulphates build up in larger proportions. These include calcium phosphate, iron phosphate, aluminium phosphate and calcium sulphate. .

As we have already said, bat guano is an ecological fertilizer, obtained naturally from the excrement and physical remains of bats living in caves. This product is rich in nutrients, outclassing all other existing organic fertilizers, with a better balance of essential nutrients (N-P-K), a wealth of micro-organisms and much higher levels of organic matter. Its chemical and biological composition vary according to the bats' feeding habits, type of cave, age of guano, etc.

A great variety of different agrochemical analyses have been carried out on bat guanos through the years. All the different analysis show that the nutrient and micro-organism content of bat guanos are high, but it varies according to the type of guano. Because the chemical, physical and biological composition of bat guano (and other organic fertilizers) will naturally vary, it is impossible to set a specific single value for any nutrient. The table below is copied from internet research and is a summary of the variety of results obtained from bat guano analyses.
Source: Omar Páez Malagón, January 2004

Total Nitrogen(N) 1.00-6.00%
Phosphorus Oxide (P2O5) 1.50-9.00%
Potassium Oxide (K2O) 0.70-1.20%
Calcium Oxide (CaO) 3.60-12.0%
Magnesium Oxide (MgO) 0.70-2.00%
Iron (Fe) 0.70-1.50%
Copper (Cu) 0.20-0.50%
Manganese Oxide (MnO) 0.40-0.70%
Zinc (Zn) 0.40-0.65%
Sodium (Na+) 0.45-0.50%
Organic matter (OM) 30-65% pH (in H2O) 4.3-5.5
Ratio C/N 8-15/1
Humidity (Hy) 40-30%
Total humic extract 25-15.00%
Microbial flora 30 - 45x107 u.f.c./ gr
Note:

These values are not always uniform, but provide useful data for calculating doses of nutrients or micro-organisms and analyzing the product's physical properties for agricultural or industrial use. These indicators are for intermediate guano, in the natural state of transition between fresh guano and old or fossil guano. Source: Omar Páez Malagón, January 200
seabird guano-contains an equivalent percentage of plant nutrients,helps bind soil particles,aids in nitrogen fixation and greatly enhances beneficial bacteria. A great all around nutrient with quite a history.The most famous of all seabird guano's was that used by the inca's,the word guano actually originated from Quichua, language of the Inca civilization and means "the droppings of sea birds".The guano was collected on the rainless islands and coast of Peru.Where the atmospheric conditions insured a minimal loss of nutrients,leaving the Legendary fertilizer of the Incas.Seabird guano can be used as an soil amendment or as a tea at 1-2tbsp per gal.Bcause of its balanced npk ratio,an average of 10-10-2.5,seabird guano can be used as a base when making tea's (throught out the grow)

Green Manure
Green Manure is a crop grown for the purpose of supplying the soil with nutrients and organic matter. It is called a “cover crop” when the green manure is grown for the added purpose of reducing soil erosion. Green manures are usually legumes or grasses, and they are grown with the simple intent that they will be turned back under the soil. Cover crops and green manures are certainly cost effective for large-scale farmers, but many backyard gardeners have no idea how simple and effective they are to use. And, as we mentioned earlier, they do offer a “manure” option for growers who choose vegan organics.

Green manures improve soil in a variety of ways. Green manures add significant amount of organic matter into the soil. Like animal manures, the decomposing of green manures works to enhance biological activity in the soil. Green manures can also diminish the frequency of common weeds, and when used in a crop rotation, they can help to reduce disease and pests. When turned under, the rotting vegetation supports beneficial bacterial populations. As those decomposers do their work, nutrients stored by the cover crop are returned to the soil.

Alfalfa roots regularly grow to depths of five feet or more, soybeans and clover can reach almost as deep. Since their roots go deeper than folk would commonly cultivate with a rototiller or plow, a green manure crop can bring subsoil minerals up to where even shallow rooted plants can reach them. Green manures also help to improve overall soil structure, because those deep reaching roots leave behind minute channels deep into the soil. When these deep roots decay, they provide organic matter that promotes long-term soil building.

Except for buckwheat (a member of the rhubarb family) and rapeseed (related to the cabbages), all commonly used green manures are either legumes or grasses. Rye and oats are two good examples of grass family members that are commonly used as green manures. When we think of legumes, beans and peas are the “classics” which come to mind, but the legume family also includes relatives such as clover and alfalfa. Members of the legume family can be particularly valuable as green manures, due to their ability to “fix” nitrogen from the atmosphere.

In the legume family, a very specific type of bacteria works in league with plant roots. These microorganisms, called nitrogen fixing bacteria, form nodules on the plant roots where they work in a form of partnership with their host. Functioning in concert with the plant roots, nitrogen fixing bacteria transform atmospheric nitrogen (which plants otherwise can’t use), into ammonia, which plant roots can easily absorb.

If one of these plants is uprooted, the small nodules become visible as white or pinkish bumps the size of a large pinhead. The more nodules visible the better, since more nodules equals more nitrogen fixed. To assure that enough of these bacteria are present, commercially sold legume seeds are often treated with a bacterial innoculant. Make sure to get the appropriate innoculant for your specific legume crop if it’s necessary to inoculate your own soil or legume seed stock.

Each kind of legume requires a specific species of bacteria for effective nitrogen fixation, and each innoculant works for only a few species. It’s usually possible to buy an innoculant mix designed for all peas, snap or dry beans, as well as lima beans. Soybeans will require their own specific innoculant. A totally different innoculant will be needed to serve the needs of the vetches (as well as fava beans.) Still another nitrogen fixing bacteria will work with all the true clovers, but sweet clovers will require yet another innoculant.

With careful stewardship, a legume cover crop can enrich the soil with enough nitrogen to supply most of the following years crop nitrogen needs. Commonly used legumes for cover crops include: alfalfa; fava, mung and soy beans; a whole variety of clovers; cowpeas and field peas; common or hairy vetch; the lupines; and finally our favorite name among the legume cover crops - Birdsfoot trefoil.

Although the grasses and other non-legumes do not have the ability to fix nitrogen from the atmosphere, they still provide all the other benefits of green manures. Other non-legume crops grown for green manure include; barley, bromegrass, buckwheat, millet, oats, rapeseed, winter rye, ryegrass, grain sorghum, and wheat.

Seed for cover crop and green manures doesn’t need to come from fancy little packets at the garden center. Purchase grass and legume seeds by the pound, if you can, to save money. Farm and agricultural supply centers, what we call “feed & seed” stores, usually offer the most economical source. If your garden area is small, a single pound of seed may go a long way. With the smaller seeds, a pound could be expected to last through a couple of plantings. The larger seeds of legumes, like beans and peas, don’t store as well, so it’s advised to purchase them fresh annually.

The use of green manures and cover crops is relatively simple, the primary necessity being the time to grow the plants. Some preplanning is always helpful to make sure the correct crop is selected to best meet the grower’s needs. So, for example, if enriching soil nitrogen levels is a goal, then it’s best to choose a cover crop from the legume family due to their ability to fix nitrogen.

Some green manure plantings tolerate poor soil quality better than others, so some cover crops may be chosen because they tolerate particularly acidic (or alkaline) conditions. If a grower needs to break up hardpan soil and improve drainage, some cover crops grow very strong and deep roots. Such conditions call for green manures like alfalfa and birdsfoot trefoil that can thrust their roots through anything but the most dreadfully compressed soils.

As stated earlier, deep-rooted plants can also bring up essential nutrients from the subsoil. And, some do even more; they actually accumulate nutrients, concentrating them. Growing these green manures can produce a measurable (although not huge) increase in soil nutrients. Some legumes, especially red clover, can help to increase phosphorus levels. Buckwheat also increases phosphorus, as well as helping to supplement calcium. Vetches are also accumulator plants, working to increase levels of both calcium and sulfur.

Buckwheat and Rye are examples of crops often grown as green manures that also function to control weeds. Winter Rye is actually a natural herbicide; it produces chemicals that are toxic to many weed seedlings. Buckwheat works by outgrowing its weedy competitors. The large leaves of buckwheat effectively shade out many common annual weeds.

It’s also necessary to consider the seasonal needs of your garden when planning a green manure planting. Some green manures are early season crops, while others do better when planted during the heat of summer. Winter rye and winter wheat are usually planted in the late summer or fall and then turned under in the following spring.

Another key to getting the most from a green manure planting is to turn them under at the proper time. Winter cover crops of rye and wheat, for instance, should be turned under as soon as the spring soil is dry enough to work. It’s best when turning under a winter wheat to allow at least two weeks for the green manure to “work” in the soil before beginning any spring planting.

In order to assure good germination rates, it’s necessary to wait even longer for winter rye manures to be ready for replanting. A three to four week wait is suggested after turning under a winter rye crop before sowing seeds of another crop. This is due to the same herbicidal quality that makes winter rye effective in the control of weeds. In general with most grass cover crops, the best timing is to turn them under before they form mature seed.

Turning under legumes at any time will enhance the organic matter in soil and promote an active population of beneficial soil bacteria. But, to get the full benefit of a legume plantings ability to fix nitrogen, they should be allowed to grow a full season. Perennials like alfalfa, red clover, and birdsfoot trefoil can produce additional soil enriching nitrogen if allowed to grow for a second season. If allowed those two years of growth, they can be mowed multiple times, providing a high quality source of compost or material for mulching. An alfalfa cover planting can serve as a gardener’s own sure source of fresh materials for the manufacture of alfalfa teas.
Miscellaneous Wastes / Manures
this space reserved for further information on Miscellaneous Wastes / Manures
1. Earthworm Castings
2. Cricket Castings
3. Aquarium Wastewater
Finding Manure
As we’ve stated, one of the best reasons to use manures in growing is the fact that society (as a whole) has a surplus of animal shit. The disposal or dispersal of animal wastes is a real problem for areas where large agricultural operations produce copious excesses of waste. Even Vegans who might avoid pure animal products like bone meal or blood meal, might do well to consider using manures in growing, because the use of manures is beneficial to our planet's environment.

The best advice we can give for finding good sources of shit is to look around! We suggest you simply contact people who raise the various cows, horses, pigs or chickens that make this fertilizer. If you are lucky, they'll probably let you take a load home for free. Stables are usually listed in the phone book, and state fairs and traveling circuses can also serve as great sources for free manure. For the hopelessly urban farmer, the local zoo may also offer free crap. As an added benefit, zoos can offer some pretty exotic shit, like crap from critters like lions and tigers and bears, (oh my!) Some folk claim that manure from predator species like these can help to deter garden pests, such as rabbits and deer.

If none of these manure sources are available, or if you just prefer your shit pre-packaged, just head off to the local nursery or home-and-garden center. Wal-Mart, Lowes, and Home Depot are all examples of large outlets which will carry packaged manure products, usually cow and steer crap. Often these are at least partially composted and come labeled as "humus and manure". Nowadays, even many grocery stores carries manure products like humus and manure or mushroom compost. The budget conscious shopper can often wait until late in the season when stores are "closing out" such products before winter, to grab these items at increased discounts.

Garden centers or hydro shops are usually better sources for the more exotic ingredients like worm castings and the various bat and bird guanos. Ingredients for green manures can often be found in rural animal feed stores, or other similar agricultural supply center.
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Building a better alfalfa tea with the 3LB

there are many benefits to using an old fashioned alfalfa tea on your growing herbs . . . alfalfa is a natural and renewable resource which means it's use as a fertilizer is especially earth friendly . . . and alfalfa has a "secret ingredient" that stimulates plant growth . . .

triaconatol is a fatty acid growth hormone found in alfalfa . . . it is especially good for increasing growth rates during vegetative growth . . . and we call it a "secret ingredient" because we understand it's "hidden" in the composition of the commercial product "Super Thrive" . . .

one sure way to get triaconatol to your growing plants is a foliar feeding . . . some folks will use a recipe as simple as a couple handfuls of alfalfa into 5 gallons of water . . . soak overnight and then use . . . and that works . . .

but our goal is to build a better alfalfa tea . . . and here's what's working at the "bird's nest" . . .

some folks get pellets . . . our preference is alfalfa meal . . . which we've seen even cheaper than the pellets . . . pellets are fine . . . but we think the meal mixes more evenly as a soil amendment (in addition to making great teas) . . . the meal mix avoids "hot spots" of concentrated alfalfa in the soil that might burn delicate roots as alfalfa decays . . .

when we first mix our alfalfa tea . . . we use about 2 cups of meal for something in the range of 4 gallons of water . . . we mix our teas in 5 gallon gasoline cans bought specifically for the garden . . .

then we add some Earth Juice Catalyst . . . about 1 tsp per gallon . . . our thinking is that the EJ Catalyst provides sugars and yeasts to assist in turning the alfalfa into nutrients absorbable by plants . . . it helps to delay the inevitable alfalfa tea stink as well . . .

this soaks 24-48 hours . . . a aquarium bubble rock can be used to aerate the mix if you are already set up for such . . . if you don't have a bubble . . . don't despair . . . just swish the mix by hand a few times . . . agitating and aerating the tea . . . that will do as a sub for the airstone . . .

the longer the alfalfa soaks the stronger the resulting liquid will be . . . at the bird's nest . . . we usually use our teas after 24-48 hours of soaking . . . we'll dump off about 1/2 of the mix = 2 gallons . . . dumping the brewed tea through a cheap nylon stocking to strain out the alfalfa particles . . . the resulting alfalfa tea is useful for foliar feeding as well as general watering . . .

then . . . any strained plant matter is returned to the mixture in the 5 gallon can . . . and we also add 2 more gallons of fresh water to "top off" the tea again . . . then we add about 4 TBSP of molasses to the tea . . . that's 1 TBSP per gallon . . . and then we let the tea "brew" or bubble for another 24 hours . . . the added molasses feeds beneficial bacteria . . . and again helps to avoid the dreaded alfalfa tea = horse manure smell . . .

finally then . . . the "re-brewed" tea is used to water plants . . . if you care to strain out the alfalfa particles they can be added to the compost heap or worm bin . . . if you don't want to bother straining out the alfalfa particles that's fine too . . . they will leave a light layer of green particles on the soil surface . . . almost as if you'd "top dressed" your plants . . .

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JOG Grow Guide by 3LB

The basis of our system are 2'x3' plastic utility containers that the three_little_birds are now infamous for growing in. The containers are just under a foot deep and will hold something in the range of 25 to 30 gallons of soul depending on how full we pack them. Needless to say these containers are heavy so we have each of our containers on an individual furniture mover to make them mobile (and to avoid root stress when the containers are moved).

In our "Jungle of Green" system we use a maximum of 4 plants per container and a minimum of 2 plants in each 2'x3' container:
4 plants per containder gives each plant 1 1/2 square feet a piece and 7 to 8 gallons of soil.
3 plants per container provides each plant 2 square feet of space and 10+ gallons of soil a piece.
In a 2 plant JOG each plan needs to fill out 3 sq ft and gets 15+ gallons of soil for their roots.
(experiments with 1 plant per container were also successful but require strains that really like to "bush out" and some patience too)

In all honesty we've had great success with any of those plant counts - the specific results in terms of look and structure may vary a little depending on how many plants are in a container, but we have found that yields can be the same regardless which you use. The primary difference is plant count vs veg time. Its funny how even in a JOG system it comes downt to that basic choice (much like the choice between SOG and SCROG). One offers little or no veg time and the other offers reduced plant count. We have tried both SOG and SCROG in our gardens and found them inferior to the Jungle of Green.

We normally clone our plants directly into 4 1/2" square planters and grow them up to around 6" or 8" under strong floro lights - currently we use a combination of Agrosun, Sunstick, and daylight floro bulbs in standard 4' shoplight fixtures. Experiments with VHO floro lights have also been very successfull. In addition, some T5 floro arrays are showing extraordinary promise for vegging plants. (Eds note: These bulbs are smaller and set closer together thereby more efficiently utilizing an alternating lamp strategy). But those are expensive investments for beginning gardenders and we've done well with standard floro bulbs.

At 6"-8" with almost all strains we will top (or top clone) our plants to encourage bracning. Allowing a single cola to grow would not allow the canopy to fill in evenly and diminish yields. Topping at this height encourages multiple colas and one secret to creating the jungle of green effect. (Eds note: Bending tops via "supercropping" can also encourage multiple branching without eliminating the apical meristem). Once the plants have recovered from the stress of being topped - once they begin to show the development of those multiple arms we transplant them from their square planters into the 2'x3'. At this point they are around 6" in height and are pretty close to being root bound.

As we said, the JOG will work in a 2'x3' container with 2, 3, or 4 plants. For simplicity sake in this example we'd plant 3 plants in a straight line up the center of the container. We then place the 2'x3' container under at least 110 to 130 watts of VHO floro light; a pair of these containers side by side can be lit by a 400 watt MH light to great effect as well. Depending on the strain and it's veg vigor they will ove inder that bright vegging light for 10-15 days. Plants that been topped will grow more slowly in height since they energy is split between multiple colas. During this time ther roots will be spreading into every corner of the organic soil they have been planted in. As the plants in ther container reach about a foot in height they are ready for the move out to HPS light and a 12/12 light cycle. At this point they are suisually 3 squat little bushes who are just beginning to intermingle their branches and fill in the canopy. Once the plants move to the bloom light cucle they normally explode in size. Even strains known for little or no vegetative stretch will gain some height in a JOG; maybe that stretch is because we usually continue feeding them a grow fert mix for a few days, or maybe its becase of the huge amount of soil their roots have to stretch into.

Once the plants are in bloom it's just a matter of rotating them through the grow as they mature. Once a week the containers are rotated 180 degrees to encourage the plants to grow an even canopy, and once a week they rotate in position. (Eds note: the importance of this point cannot be under stated. Under 600w lights the rotating helps ensure all the plants recieve their share of intense light at the "overlap" points. Under 1000w lights rotating helps ensure no plants gets over exposed to intense light while others are deprived.)

The very smallest plants are on one side of our grow, the mid sized plants on the far side, and the tallest plants are in the middle. Many high tech grow systems are V shaped or stadium shaped - ours is the opposite and we designed ours that way for a reason! Our system is designed to maximize a 3 light system. We feel that multiple light angles are one key to producing good plant vigor, an even canopy, and high yields. We keep our air-cooled PL lights as close as possible to the plant's canopy to maximize the energy our plants recieve. Since the outer plants are shorter, the outer lights are hung lower. This sidelight helps to fill in the lower canopy of the maturing plants in the center of our grow, a detail which helps to significantly increase yields. With JOG some of the lower branches can produce nice "popcorn" buds which helps this system get a little edge on some other gardens. (Eds note: 3LB documented average yields over 2g/watt, with high marks reaching over 4g/watt. If any reader has any posts to this effect please add them to this thread or another topic).

Airflow and control of the atmosphere are critical factors when growing in the "Jungle". For every 10 sq ft of floor space in the jungle we have about 100 cfm of exhaust pulling through a large carbon filter. This means a 600+ cfm exhaust fan for a 60 square foot growing footprint, ensuring a strong and steady supply of fresh air to the jungle. For a 60 sq ft grow we recommend 2 oscillating fans also blow on the garden constantly. Good airflow discourages pests and diseases while encouraging good general plant respiration.

A relative humidity of 60% or less is also a key. When humidity raises too hight your plants can't breath properly and your plants growth and vigor will both suffer. We are creating a solid canpy of plants with the JOG and those plants will want to breath a lot of moisture into the air. In some locales and in some seasons a dehumidifier is a necessity for a successful JOG.

Hopefully that covers the basics of the bird's do things a little differently ... Welcome to the Jungle.

(Eds note: the following represents 3LB's direct responses to reader questioning as contained in the thread. This is heavily excerpted, but hopefully the nature of the questions will be clear by the response provided.)

We originally started blooming in 3 gallon and 5 gallon buckets, and certainly a great garden can be grown using those kinds of containers. We still use these for unsexed plants when selecting keepers on a grow from seed, but for cloned plants (once we know sex) we almost always use 2'x3' plastic utility bins. The fact that they hold 25 to 30 gallons of soil really gives our babes room to spread their toes, so to speak, and that means happier, healthier, and more productive plants.

Container plantings of this sort offer multiple benefits. Plants in smaller pots (3 or 5 gallons for example) are quicker to show nutrient shortages than thsoe grown in large containers. If there's a little pocket of soil who's pH isn't quite right, or where nutes got mixed in a little too strong, a plant in a smaller contaner will almost certainly be effected. However, the roots of plants in bigger containers can somply seek out better soil and keep on growing.

Our 2'x3' container grows have no drainage holes ... never needed em.

They are about 10" deep and hold 20-30 gallons of soil. With 100% organic food no flushing is needed, and with careful watering there's not even the need for any drainage holes. We never water to the point of total saturation because roots like some air.

We generally would expect to water a 2'x3' container every other day for fill sized plants that fully fill in the caopy above the container. For smaller plants it might be as long as 5 days between waterings. A "normal" watering would be about a gallon of water, but it varies depending on the particular strains needs.

As for the volume question ... 1 cubic foot = 7.4805195 gallon [US, liquid], and a cubic foot is simply 1' x 1' x 1'. Our containers are 2'x3' giving a surface area of 6 square feet. So if our tubs are only 6" deep (and ours are certainly deeper than that) we'd have a max volume of at least 3 cubic feet ... that's about 22 gallons right there. If our tubs were 12 inches deep we'd expect a max volume of 44 gallons, so at 10 inches deep container holding 30 gallons isnt really a stretch.
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Earth Juice Fertilizers by the 3LB
the three_little_birds are well know for our love of growing using organic fertilizers . . . And while we are always looking for ways to utilize inexpensive and effective materials like manure, alfalfa meal, kelp meal, and a variety of rock powders . . . we also know that some folks will only use organic growing methods if the option is fairly simple and mess free . . . while organic fertilizers from a bottle will never likely be as cost effective as using rock powders and teas made from alfalfa or guano . . . they do offer great convenience . . .

and the good news for growers who demand their organic fertilizers in a bottle . . . is that herbs grown exclusively with today’s liquid organic fertilizers will rival those grown with any method of organic growing we’ve ever used or experienced . . . there’s no need to sacrifice quality for convenience if your pocketbook can withstand the additional cost . . .

our favorite among premixed liquid fertilizers is the complete line of Earth Juice products . . . we’ve sampled other fertilizers but always come back to Earth Juice . . . In our opinion they are the “premium standard” against which all other organic ferts must measure themselves . . .

The basic line of Earth Juice fertilizers is 5 different products that can all be used in any combination with each other . . . the ability to “mix and match” any of the 5 products gives us the versatility to deal with any nutrient need (or problem) that might arise . . . here’s a listing of Earth Juice array . . .

Earth Juice Grow
Earth Juice Bloom
Earth Juice Catalyst (called Xatalyst in Canada)
Earth Juice ****-K
Earth Juice Microblast

the Grow and Bloom formulas can be used alone or in combination with each other . . . no big explanation necessary with those names . . . their intended uses are pretty obvious . . . Catalyst is basically a jazzed up Molasses / carbohydrate product to feed beneficial bacteria and act as a chelate . . . ****-K is an awesome Potassium supplement . . . and Microblast is one of the most useful and effective micronutrient products we’ve had the pleasure of using . . . in our next post we’ll give a more formal introduction to the various components of the EJ line of ferts . . .

The EJ lineup
here’s the “scoop” . . . the “tech intell” . . . the “lowdown” . . . the “skinny” . . . on what exactly is in those Earth Juice ferts that the 3LB’s talk about so much . . .

EARTH JUICE GROW 2-1-1
bat guano
kelp
sulfate of potash
feather meal
oat bran
blood meal
steamed bone meal
this is the “jack of all trades” among the Earth Juice products . . . useful throughout all of vegging and the first couple weeks of vegging . . . Depending on a plant’s growth stage and we use the EJ Grow at concentrations of anywhere from 1 TBSP to 2 TBSP per gallon (and we have pushed it to 3 to 4 TBSP without harm for very heavy feeders)

EARTH JUICE BLOOM 0-3-1
bat guano
seabird guano
kelp
sulfate of potash
steamed bone meal
oat bran
rock phosphate
we love our Earth Juice Bloom as a flowering fertilizer and. . . because this product has no Nitrogen it’s especially useful for late stage flowering when it’s desirable to let a plant use up the soil’s nitrogen reserves . . . and for an added boost of Phosphorous at those times when plant’s need an extra boost of P . . . we normally use EJ Bloom at rates between ½ and 2 TBSP per gallon . . .

EARTH JUICE CATALYST
oat bran
kelp
wheat malt
molasses
yeast
For some odd reason, the Canadian Government requires this product to be labeled as “Xatalyst” . . . but whatever it’s called where you live . . . if you’ve looked over the “Molasses Manual” by the 3LB you may already know the biggest “secret” to this product . . . the sweet sticky goodness of molasses . . . as we’ve said elsewhere molasses feeds microbes and acts as a chelating agent to make micronutrients more available to plants . . . those extra organic goodies in Catalyst like wheat malt and oat bran are just “icing on the cake” . . .

Earth Juice ****-K 0-0-10
sulfate of potash
pretty simple product with apparently only a single active ingredient . . . it does have a good measure of Sulfur . . . and it’s very useful to give an extra boost of Potassium when necessary . . . Many organic fertilizers run a little “lean” on K - especially guano based products . . . and EJ ****-K gives us a way to add that needed Potassium in controlled amounts as needed . . .

Earth Juice Microblast
kelp meal
magnesium sulfate
borax
cobalt sulfate
ferrous sulfate
manganese sulfate
sodium molybdate
zinc sulfate
the Microblast tests out to the following percentages . . . Magnesium (Mg) .05%, Boron (B) .02%, Cobalt (Co) .0005%, Iron (Fe) .10%, Manganese (Mn) .05%, Molybdenum (Mo) .0005%, Zinc (Zn) .05% . . . in our experience it’s a great all around micronutrient supplement that resolves almost every potential micronutrient issue likely to arise . . .

there's your "Earth Juice All Stars" lineup . . .

it's not "soup" yet . . . but in our next post we'll give the recipes to feed your plant's a gourmet diet . . .

Earth Juice Recipes Growth Recipes

we get many PM’s and email requests for our Earth Juice recipes . . . many folks - it seems - would love for us to just spell out the specific nutrient mixes and quantities we use with every feeding . . . . if only life were so simple!

What and how much we use vary's some from strain to strain . . . Perhaps even from plant to plant . . . so it’s just not possible to set a schedule and ignore the plants . . . The best gardeners become “at one” with their plants and feed them according to the plant’s needs . . . even anticipating their needs . . .

our standard mix for vegging plants is usually

1 to 2 TBSP Grow
1 tsp Bloom
1 tsp Catalyst (called Xatalyst in Canada for some odd reason)
(all ingredients are added to a gallon of water . . . )

there are times where we might increase the Bloom portion up to as much as a tablespoon . . . Especially for plants in the early stages of flowering . . . and we can go as high as 3 or even 4 TBSP of Grow for really N hungry plants - but if we increase the Grow fert above 2 TBSP per gallon we usually leave out Bloom & Catalyst )

we also use what we call our "microblast mix" once or twice during the normal life-cycle of vegging plants . . . no big difference between this and the prior mix except this one has an extra boost of **** K and Microblast . . .

1-2 TBSP Grow
1 tsp Bloom
1 tsp Catalyst
1 tsp ****-K
1 tsp Microblast

as folks may have observed in our “Growing LUI with the 3LB” thread . . . we also commonly use some kinds of fish fertilizers and kelp concentrates during a plant’s early growth stages . . . we like the combination of enzymes and proteins and hormones the fish and kelp provide together . . . but it’s common for some fish products to be high in heavy metal contaminants like Mercury . . . so the “seafood platter” is a treat we feed our babes and the Earth Juice is their regular diet . . .

Flowering Recipes

early stage flowering plants can often use a fair measure of nitrogen as they stretch . . . so a normal Earth Juice mix in early flowering will look pretty similar to a Grow mix . . . we like to use something along the lines of the following for the first couple weeks of flowering . . .

1 TBSP EJ Grow
1 TBSP EJ Bloom
1 tsp Catalyst (yeah we know - it’s Xatalyst north of a line from Seattle - Duluth - Niagra!)

as flowering progresses we forego the Nitrogen to let our plants use N reserves from the soil as they finish flowering . . . so mixing an Earth Juice Bloom formula can be as easy as . . .

1 TBSP EJ Bloom
1 tsp EJ Catalyst

for really hungry darlings we’ll go as high as 2 TBSP per gallon with the EJ Bloom . . . but pouring it on that heavy can burn light feeders . . . and even with heavy feeders it’s better to build up to stronger concentrations of EJ Bloom over time than to just start in at 2 TBSP per gallon right away as plants begin to flower. . .

and we also have a bloom "micro-mix" that includes ****-K and Microblast . . . it's used once in a blooming plant's life (or maybe twice in plant’s with a long flowering) . . . Like the growth “microblast mix” it gives an extra boost of Potassium and assorted micronutrients to make sure the plants will want for nothing!
The flowering micro-mix usually goes like this . . .

1 TBSP Bloom
1 tsp Catalyst
1 tsp ****-K
1 tsp Microblast

that's about all there is to making an awsome plant-enriching organic brew with Earth Juice . . . it's really that simple . . .

Earth Juice Notes

In theory there’s no need to “flush” organic soil grown herbs before harvest . . . and because organic fertilizers are not salt based like chemical fertilizers . . . traditional techniques for “flushing” wouldn’t carry away nutrient salts in the traditional meaning of the word “flush” anyway . . .

That creates a danger with organic fertilizers that doesn’t exist with salt based chemical fertilizers . . . with salt fertilizers over-fertilizing can be pretty severe . .. But it will show up fairly quickly . . . and the solution (a good flushing) can be enacted pretty quickly too . . .

it’s probably harder for a grower to over-fertilize using organic fertilizers . . . but if they do there’s no quick solution . . . organic fertilizers usually can’t be flushed away like salt fertilizer’s can . . . so if a grower over-fertilizes they will likely have to live with the consequences for a longer term . . .

And when it comes to harvest time . . . we do go ahead and put our organic herbs on a “crash” diet . . . in the past it’s just been pure water for the last two weeks . . . But lately we’ve been experimenting with using Fulvic Acid with the watering during the second week before harvest . . . and then plain water the final week . . . this technique really seems to bring out the fullest potential of our babes . . . but the wonders of Humic Acid and Fulvic Acid are deserving of their own thread . . .

And finally . . . before we finish our initial discussion of Earth Juice Fertilizers . . . we need to touch on the practice of premixing and bubbling Earth Juice fertilizers . . . we get a lot of questions on this topic in private so may as well discuss it here and avoid having to type the same information time and time again . . .

This is the most common question we hear . . .
“Is it absolutely necessary to pre-mix and bubble / aerate Earth Juice fertilizers before use ? ? ?“
Our simple answer is no it’s not necessary at all . . . but Earth Juice will be more efficiently and effectively used if “brewed” for 24-48 hours before use . . . in organic farming the old adage is “feed the soil not the plant” . . . and making your Earth Juice fert mix into an aerated tea maximizes the benefits it can provide for your plants . . . but they will work fine if used without any premixing or bubbling . . .
we would also like to add that if you do not care to go to the bother of premixing and aerating your Earth Juice . . . that you use the fertilizers in smaller / lighter proportions . . .

We also hear this question a lot . . .
“What about the low pH of those Earth Juice fertilizers? - Will that low pH harm my plants?”
And our simple answer is that there’s likely little concern about that issue unless your growing medium is already abnormally acidic . . . but we can also say that the pre-mixing and bubbling/aerating we talked about in the prior question will moderate the pH to an extent . . . and that can allow heavier feedings overall . . .

Our experience with Earth Juice in everything from 3 gallon pots to 30 gallon beds indoors is that a good soil mix with a healthy microbe population will moderate it’s own pH to an extent . . . and the calcite and dolomite lime use commonly in soil mixes will do some of the work as well . . . so we’ve never had any actual problems with pH in our Earth Juice experience . . .

And finally we also get asked . . .
“Can I get by with just Bloom and Grow and not have to go to the expense of the other products?”
And the simple answer is yes of course you can. Catalyst is a molasses based product so the substitution of cheap and easily available Blackstrap molasses will be almost as good as the real thing. . . And although we prefer to use Microblast and ****-K a few times during a plant’s life . . . we’ve certainly had great grows without them . . .
Not having those extra ingredients available will make your life much more difficult if something does go wrong . . . having a sufficient source of Potassium is a major factor in a plant’s ability to withstand the heat stresses inherent in many grow rooms . . . and micronutrient deficiencies can be hard to diagnose and treat without a “full range” micronutrient fertilizer like Microblast . . . Maxicrop kelp concentrate is the only other substitute we know of that’s as effective at treating a shortage of potassium and trace minerals . . . and many growers prefer to avoid using kelp products during the later stages of flowering . . .


why no MaxiCrop during the end of bloom ?

not everyone agrees on this topic . . . but kelp and kelp concentrates contain growth hormones that might interfere with or prolong a plant's natural flowering cycle . . .

someone even polled that question here recently . . . and there really was no general agreement . . . our opinion is that the plant growth hormones in kelp and kelp concentrates might encourage a bit extra stretch . . . and perhaps prolong flowering slightly . . .

we can't point to any specific studies that back up our observation . . . it's simply something where we prefer to err on the side of caution . . . so we try to avoid giving any "mixed messages" to our plants in the advanced stages of flowering . . .

many thanks to all who have chirped in . . . our flock of friends is glad to hear this "guide" has helped some folks already . . . we hope that other Earth Juice users will "chirp in" with their own recipes and uses for this versitile line of organic products . . .

NOTE - the 3LB have no financial or commercial interest in Earth Juice . . . we have no connection or relation to the company in any manner shape or form . . .
we are simply providing this thread as a legacy for the community to document our techniques and methods . . . and to encourage further discussion on the topic of some of the best organic products we are aware of . . .

Hope this helps saved from the old C-W dpn

__________________________


Organics: You get back what You put in.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=36542&page=1
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[Suby]

Great Vman, that was some nifty C and P, kudos.
Once we get the thread setup I can delete the long ass post lol.
Is there anything major missing?

Hello All,

Sorry I've been neglecting this thread bit, it's already quite padded but there is always room for improvements lol.
Emmy if you read this ty for posting that link awhile ago, it brings us to the old OG FAQ and info page, Vman if want to check it out at the top of the page there is a complete ...and I mean complete...FAQ on vermicomposting and it has a nice layout, you could use it for building of the vermicompost sticky.

Peace All

Suby

 

[emmy75]

np suby
it was long long after the fact of posting it that i realized where that link was from, after i learned what the og was.

ok now for my post on airstones. i was reading the info by von on the alfalfa tea and gettin an airstone. i dont use airstones when i bubble my tea and really think its better not to, at least with the ones i found at my local pet store. the airstones they carry are closed at one end, which i think doesnt make for very good bubbling action. i just put the tubes straight in the water but they never get clogged. after a few uses and the build up of the guano and wc i just pour some water down the tube to rinse it out. i have one dual and one single bubblers. i usally get after 48 hours of bubble at 4-5 inch layer of foam at the top. i dont see the need for airstones and dont understand why people buy them. why not just insert tube into water and let it bubble away?

 

[Scay Beez]

I understand why people buy airstones. Smaller bubbles oxygenate water better. In my plain RO water bin I bubble the water with a small air curtain style small bubble airstone to keep it oxygenated and stabilize the PH.

Although, small bubbles also cause tear microorganisms in half (air curtain; fine bubble; long cylindrical shaped, soft foam-like, airstones in particular). For the purposes of compost tea I have read in Teaming with Microbes by Jeff Lowenfels & Wayne Lewis and on the compost tea yahoo groups that bubbles smaller than 1 millimeter will damage microorganisms. They recommend getting these airstones that are ceramic discs with larger bubbles. Lots of the airstones that are readily available (pet stores, grow shops, wallyworld; blue ceramic in general) are hard to clean to completely clean without soaking them in h202. Getting extra airstones is the way to go so you soak/wash them well before next brewing cycle. Rubber airstones will degrade and the bacteria will break them down putting I have no idea what into your compost tea.

I have seen commercially sold brewers such as the bob's brewer that doesn't use airstones. From what I can gather, it just looks like a PVC chamber with a window screen (plastic would be better) and the airline hooks directly into the bottom of the chamber. Anyone have one of these and can comment on how much better it works than just a bucket? Or any other commercial brewer for that matter?




- sbz

 

[jaykush]

hey scaybeez ive seen some brew kits where they dont use bubblers and its kind of like what your describing maybe. they make sort of a whirlpool kind of action and it stirs the tea and if i remember right it works really good. ive never tried it but always wanted to. theres also many other ways to make tea not just the hose in the bucket. its just the most common and simple for the masses.

on another note glad the ofc is a sticky now! some more organic goodness.

 

[theFLINTSTONERS]

what a thread!!!

a while back . . . we had someone tell us that our "Growing LUI" thread had been saved after the loss of CW too . . . with pics and everything . . . but we lost the link to the site where they had placed it . . .

 

[pieceofmyheart]

This is just a great thread. Suby and Vonforne have helped me so much with their advice.

I also use the 3LB method with molasses and I aerate it with airstones.

Thanks guys for all the info!

 

[3BM]

Hey Flintstoners:

That thread exists here in organic soil. Just search the title. The text is complete in the post, but the photos themselves are in the poster's gallery.

On a side note. I want to thank you and your crew for your contributions to the soil growing community over the years. I was almost ready to give up on indoor organics when I found some of your posting many years ago. Your successes and openness encouraged me to keep the faith. I owe you a lot, and so I would like to help out if I can. I have compiled the "3LB from seed to weed" thread and edited it in its entirety. I resized many of the photos and put the text into paragraph form (in the interest of clarity/efficiency). If you are interested in this version please let me know and I will gladly get you a copy. Its not perfect, but I spent monthes getting it as close as I know how. Thanks again for everything.

3bm

 

[Suby]

Hey all,

Yeah this has been our home and chill zone, there is alot of good info and links in this thread plus we answer ?'s and put our new ideas out there for the community to discuss.

I'm glad the Flints made it to our "pad"
Alot of friends here made this thread possible, I'm trying to keep that community feel we have in this thread and apply if to the whole forum.
Everyone has chipped in to make this the thread the 15+ page whopper it is lmfao.

 

[Suby]

Emmy

I'm with you on the airstones, I just put the tube right to the bottom of the bucket and place a stone in the bottom to wedge it in, I think in hydro it's essential to use a stone or diffuser for the rootzone but in a tea temperature will have alot more to do with with how much oxygen gets dissolved into the tea, the colder the water the easier it is to keep O2 in suspension.

I've read that it's actually the bubbles that break the surface of the water that get the oxygen into the water, personnaly I think a waterfall effect like BigToke uses in his BioBuckets in the #1 best way to get DO(disolved oxygen) levels through the roof, I've done it and it's messy with teas, but it works and get's the tea really foammy.

Alot of the tea kits you buy include a powerhead, they work at the water surface and you can buy them at the pet store in the aquarium section.

I'm lazy so a HUGE air pump rigged to a rock is a testament to my Ghetto-ness.


POMH

I'm glad we were able to help you with your grow, I remember you had alot of specific questions and that is a the most problematic character of growing there are a TON of specifics that have an impact and a bearing on the success of your grow, it's easy to read articles and buy the latest products but it comes down to ironing out the specifics and details of YOUR particular vectors like water, air quality, temps, setup etc. that make any help usefull.

Post pics of your grow when it's all said and done.

Peace All.
Suby

 

[Guest]

Hi folks! Been reading and lurking. I saw these on TV and wonder if anyone has tried them http://www.freundsfarmmarket.com/cowpots/index.html.htm They seem like a good idea. I just wish they were sold in my neck of the woods. Thanks to all you guys and keep up the good work.

 

[vonforne]

what a thread!!!

a while back . . . we had someone tell us that our "Growing LUI" thread had been saved after the loss of CW too . . . with pics and everything . . . but we lost the link to the site where they had placed it . . .
__________________________
If you are learning as you grow, then you are growing too!

You ask and you shall recieve








3LB From seed to weed

Growing LUI w/ the 3LB - From seed to weed!

Twas 10 days before Xmas, and there at the nest . . .
Not a creature was stirring, not one single pest . . .
The fluoros were hung over the seed beds with care . . .
In hopes that sweet seedlings soon would be there . . .

Back in October the birdies had cried . . .
Where can we find LUI’s we’ve looked and we’ve tried . . .
Then ~RC~ himself answered one fateful day . . .
I’ll get those seeds for you through Heaven’s Stairway . . .

Then Poppy and ~RC~ packed those lil seeds with care . . .
And within a fortnight the 3LB’s order was there . . .
A loud shout of hooray was heard through the nest . . .
Then birdies were plotting which start date was best . . .

Tonight those little seeds are nestled in right . . .
Packed tightly in moist earth they’ll sleep through the night . . .
But soon they will grow up to be big and strong . . .
And their sweet buds will be smoked in the 3LB’s bong . . .
So the story continues of those LUI seeds . . .
And the three little birds, and their growing deeds . . .

when it comes to organic soil alternatives, there should be plenty of
options. generally we look for something called "organic" and then start
reading the labels to see what's actually in the soil. we avoid soils with
chemical fertilizers and chemical wetting agents but don't have any special
preferences beyond that. when we see a decent soil on sale we tend to buy 10
bags and ask questions later. for that very reason there are several bags of
FoxFarm OceanForest here at the nest as well as a couple more bags of that
GardenSafe soil. there's a bunch of bagged mushroom compost. a few bags of
composted humus and manure. a full bale and a half bale of plain peat. and
also a bag of earthworm castings still hanging around from before we decided
to raise our own worms. about peat pellets. we've tried those ourselves in
the past and were generally disappointed with the results. they seem
convenient and look simple to use but they always caused us more trouble than
they were worth.

it all begins with a seed. one of the most important factors in growing good
cannabis is the genetics you start with. when choosing seed. a new grower
should consider their gardening skills and physical abilities and how that
might effect their strain choice. they should also consider the specifics of
that particular strain and think of how it will meet their personal needs.
good strain information can be found using the search feature here at CW to
look at what folks have said a particular plant. the overgrow strainbase and
heatherbud's wonderful cannagenetics.com site can also provide information
provided by real life growers on specific strains. for this thread the three
little birds will be growing Legend's Ultimate Indica. often known as LUI.
the seeds were produced by Breeder Steve of Spice of Life Seeds and
purchased through ~RC~ and the friendly folks at Heaven's Stairway. btw - we
do want to offer accolades to Spice of Life Seeds for choosing to sell their
breeding efforts in 15 seed packs! we greatly appreciate the breeders who
follow this practice! We actually prefer to start with at least 30 seeds when
trying a new strain, so the 15 count packs are a great convenience. Kudos!

LUI was chosen for a number of reasons. primarily for it's medicinal use at
the nest. it's just one strain we've tried in our search for the ultimate
herb to alleviate pain and insomnia. LUI has a reputation as being good for
pain relief so it was worth a try at the nest. LUI is billed as 100% Indica
and that usually indicates a heavier more sedative or "body stone". many
recreational users may find this effect boring and prefer the more soaring
high of a sativa or sativa dominant hybrid. however a heavy effect is just
what tthe doctor ordered for medicine at the bird's nest. Indica's are
generally easy to grow indoors compared to sativas. overall, they tend to
stretch less and feature quicker finishing times. all of which makes for an
easier grow for some medical users with physical disabilities. For all of
those reasons the LUI is a good prospect for our garden. and as an additiona
benefit. lots of folks at CW have experience growing it our already. so it
also happens to make a great example of what the 3LB can do in our organic
garden. in the end it all starts with a single seed. an investement in good
genetics is almost always handsomely rewarded!

001 Seed Germination Instructions

expectant-seedbed.

once you have the genetics then it comes time to plant them. at least for
most folks that is. we've heard of some folks with seed collections numbering
in the hundreds of strains. and while we have nothing against collectors. we
just hope that thier seed collection will get used to grow some great herbs.
a lil seed embryo sitting on a shelf in a jar or pack that never gets grown
is a sad waste in our opinion. our philosophy is and always has been to share
the seed and then grow great weed! anyway. as you can see from the attached
picture. fifteen standard 4 1/2" square pots sit waiting for the seeds they
will nourish. (week old clones are in background) some folks germ in paper
towels or use other similar methods. we prefer to put our seeds directly into
these planters to eliminate potential stress from handling. so the planters
you see will get theirs seeds after just a lil bit of prep work.

002 expectant-seedbed

we get lots of questions about our soil preferences so we'd like to take a
moment to describe the soil we'll be growing the LUI seedlings in. we call
this our Wally-World soil mix since all of the ingredients can be purchased
at a Wal-Mart. as many folks are aware we re-mix and reuse our soils pretty
much endlessly. but seedlings and cuttings are the one spot in our garden
where we use a store bought soil mix. this is the exact soil mix we use these
days for all of our cuttings and seedlings and have had great success using
it. even with hard to clone strains like Herijuana we've experienced 90% +
success rates in rooting cuttings! The base is Schultz GardenSafe potting
soil which is 100% organic and even OMRI listed. OMRI is the Organic
Materials Review Institute and which certifies products manufacturers pay to
have tested and certified if they meet OMRI's organic standards. we've seen
it in aqua-green bags at many Wal-Mart's we've visited. so hopefully it's
something available pretty readily across North America. We simply mix equal
parts of perlite and vermiculite into the GardenSafe soil to get a texture
that has good aeration and still holds water to protect tender young roots.
so the standard formula is.

50% Shultz GardenSafe soil mix
25% perlite
25% vermiculite

just about any soil could be substituted here. we originally choose the
GardenSafe because of it's easy availability and because it is slightly
cheaper than FoxFarm OceanForest. the FFOF tends to be a lil "hot" in terms
of nutes. we use mushroom compost a lot as a soil base/amendment for
blooming plants but would guess it's also too hot for tender seedlings and
clones. the GardenSafe will work great & we've used an organic potting soil
called FertiLoam before and it worked great as well. organic Promix or
Sunshine Mix in the same proportions should work too. the specific soil isn't
going to matter as much as simply paying attention to purchasing a quality
soil that is organic. in the attached picture you should be able to see (if
you look closely) that most of the 4 1/2" planters have been heavily soaked
with warm tap water. normally we'd never consider using water straight from
the tap. but preparing soil for seeds is where we'd make our only exception
to that rule. we like to use warm water to get the soil heated up a lil bit
before we plant our seeds. seeds will germ faster in warm soil so this helps
give them a jump start. the little bit of chlorine that may be in some folk's
tap-water might retard potential mold on the seeds and certainly wont hurt
anything. finally we should add that underneath these planting flats are a
pair of the seedling heat matts often found in garden centers. they are
fairly expensive and not absolutely necessary and frankly they are of limited
use. as soon as the seedlings start popping their little heads above ground
we will shut them off because we don't want to "cook" any tender lil roots.
so at most they will probably only be on for two or three days. they may
contribute to a slightly faster and slightly higher germ rate so we do go
ahead an use them.

003 wetting-down-the-seedbed

at this point. with the future home of our seeds warm and moist and all cozy
for germination. some folks would just push their lil seeds down under the
soil a bit and be done. and certainly that'll work. it may even be a lil
simplier than what we do.

the problem w/ just pushing the seed underground in at least one bird's mind
is potential problems for folks who migh have lost some feeling in ther
extremities due to various chronic illnesses. those tiny lil seeds can be
hard to feel and once fingers are wet things have a way of sticking to each
other. if a person pays $50 for a pack of seeds then each bean is $5. and
we're not wanting any potential confusion with odd seeds sticking to our
fingers. so we make lil seed holes. they are slightly smaller in diameter
than a pencil and only two or three seed lengths in depth. that is our
general rule of thumb with lil seeds. 2x or 3x the actual seed depth down
into the soil. and that works if you are pressing them into the soil our
making the little indentations like we use. in the next pic you will see the
lil holes in the center of each square planter. At this point we're ready
for those lil seeds.

004 lil-seed-holes

15 seeds were carefully dropped into their new homes and are waiting to be
tucked in for the night. After all the seed were dropped in their soil
depressions they were gently covered by the warm moist soil. Transparent
humidity domes cover our seed beds but not too tightly. They are in place to
hold warmth and humidity to encourage germination. As soon as the plants
beging poking above the soil surface we'll lose the plastic covers and
unplug the heating mats.

005 seed-in-the-hole
006 tucked-in
007 Humidity Domes

13 of 15 seeds planted are already above ground. strong and green and
proudly basking in the 24/7 glow of fluorescent light. that's an 87%
germ rate (so far) and it's still just 48 hours after planting so
there's still hope for the remaining pair of seeds that remain
unsprouted. Take a look at one of the sprouts.

008 7-of-8-LUI-tray
009 lil-lui-seedling

One of the secrets to getting nice seedlings is of course genetic. good
genetics will produce stronger more vigorous plants which are easier to
grow. like anything else this is in general - there are exceptions to
every rule as certainly a 100% Sativa variety like "Haze" may be great
genetics but not so simple to grow indoors for the less experienced).
but one secret to strong healthy seedlings is to provide them with good
strong light as well. while the seedlings are young and tender too much
intense light could bake them. so extreme caution is necessary if trying
to use a HPS or MH for this job. it's much easier to use fluorescent
shoplight fixtures or similar lights. the rack holding the seedlings is
4' long and with the planting flats it's 18" deep. that area is lit by
220 watts of T-5 VHO fluorescent light. this works out to to about 36
watts per square foot. because of the high humidity domes covering the
seedlings the light above is raised higher than normal which protects
the seedlings from too much heat or too intense light. the 110 watt VHO
fluoro fixture is probably 10 inches above the seedlings right now. just
above the top of the humidity domes height. we have a seedling / cloning
cabinet which is not pictured or in use at this time but it is lit by 2
standard 4' shoplight fixtures with 2 bulbs apiece. with that cabinet
being a foot deep and just over 4' long it's lit at a similar rate. our
veg area actually has a greater capacity than we need and we choose to
germ the seeds out on the shelf to make this pictoral grow along easier
to photograph. besides a decent amount of light our seedlings also need
the correct environment to thrive. making sure they stay warm and cozy
is they key. we don't want to cross a line and make those tender lil
plant too hot or too wet either. when using our 4 1/2" square planters
in standard nursery flats the humidity domes covering the tender
seedlings do not fit tight. this is actually our preference. when
humidity domes hold excessive moisture it can cause problems for
seedlings. a common seedling problem is called "damping-off". here's a
definition of damping-off from the University of Minnesota Ag Extension
service . . ."Damping-off generally refers to sudden plant death in the
seedling stage due to the attack of fungi (see figure 1). These fungi
are soilborne and are stimulated to grow and infect the seed or seedling
by nutrients released from a germinating seed. However, seedlings may be
injured or killed by something other than fungi, for example, toxic
materials in the soil, excess or deficient soil moisture, seed defects,
temperature extremes, toxic gases in the air, etc. A correct diagnosis
is the key to effective control measures. "

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distri...ure/DG1167.html is a link to the
article where that defintion came from. the humidity domes are simply
protecting our seedlings from environmental extremes at this time.holding
in a lil heat and a lil extra humidity but not enough to get the air
inside "saturated" to where the domes fog up or hot enough to where the
seedlings could suffer from heat stress.

knowledgequest
Mar 4, 2006, 02:00 PM
LUI Day 2

some stem elongation and the 1st set of full leaves developing. we'll
keep the humidity domes off for several hours to "harden off" the
seedlings but put back on before tucking them in for the night

010 day-2-seedling (pic)

LUI DAY 3

humidity domes were taken off for good. soil surface was "cultivated"
gently with a finger.seedlings were rotated inside their flats. when
using a good organic soil it's very common for algae to grow on the soil
surface. sometimes even the white perlite will turn greenish in color
due to algae growth. the algae doesn't really hurt anything but they can
compete for nutrients so we usually just smooth the surface of our soil
mix gently with a finger. often times a peat based mix will shrink and
pull away from planter sides. roots exposed to dry air in the "side
cracks" can die back so when cultivating the soil surface we are always
careful to "fill in" by pushing some extra soil along the edges of our
lil plastic planters. the soil surface was still damp from the original
soaking so there is still no need to consider watering for several days.
cultivating the soil surface helps to level and even it and will
contribute to a more even drying of the soil as well. even with the
strong light we are using (35+ watts per sq foot) the seedlings on the
outer edges lean slightly towards the light. so to encourage straight
growth we also rotated the seedlings. moving the lil babes from the edges
into the center. the seedlings themselves show little change. perhaps
increasing slightly in size. the slightest signs of a 2nd pair of leaves
show so we'd expect to see those showing up enough for pictures tomorrow.

LUI Day 4

here's a close shot of a LUI seedling at day 4 from germination. all 13
seedlings are looking happy and healthy and a wider shot at day 4 showing
all 13 seedlings - looks like 13 will be the lucky number on this one!

011 day-4-LUI-seedling
012 day-4-LUI-seedlings wider angle

LUI Day 5

LUI seedling at day 5 from germination. temp and humidity control are
essential. temp 89F at plant level, relative humidity 42%,the room temp
is only 76F so even fluorescents can put off a fair bit of heat. Day 5
final notes . . .considering the warm temps at plant level we decided
that a very light watering was in order to assure our lil seedlings
would have plenty of moisture. just before "closing up" for the evening
each tray of seedlings was watered from below. one quart of water was
poured into the actual nursery flat that holds our planters. so the water
was absorbed from underneath. normally we water from the top but little
seedlings like this are the exception. their root systems are still
developing so we prefer not to risk washing away any soil from around the
roots and will water from below if needed for a few days until the plants
are a lil more fully developed.

013 day-5-LUI-seedling
014 temp-control-in-action

LUI Day 6

Seedlings showing wonderful growth at day 6

015 day-6-lui-seedling
016 day-6-wide-shot

LUI Day 7

The one week mark from breaking through the soil. the soil surface was
cultivated gently again w/ a finger to disturb algae growth and to test
soil moisture. soil was still slightly damp. strong root tips show at
bottom of 4 1/2 inch planters in drain holes. the lil seedlings will
likely get their first watering in the next day or two and we'll likely
include a very mild organic fert along with the watering.

day-7-LUI-seedling

LUI Day 8

here's a nice view of a lil LUI seedling at day 8. so far so good!
tonight the LUI seedlings were fed a very mild solution containing fish
fert and liquid kelp. the plants weren't soaked. just a light watering
from above for each container. the fish fert is a 2-4-1 fert and here's
the catalog description . . .

NEPTUNES HARVEST
Liquid Fish Plant Food is a natural organic fertilizer made from fresh
North Atlantic fish. It is a highly nutritional plant food made by a
unique cold process, unlike fish emulsion which is cooked. This cold
process protects the vitamins, amino acids, enzymes, and growth hormones;
and since the nutrients are already chelated, they are readily available
for your plant's consumption. here's the catalog description on the
maxicrop . . .

MAXICROP LIQUEFIED SEAWEED
An extract from fresh growing Norwegian Ascophyllum Nodosum seaweed. It
contains a huge complex of chelated minor elements, important bio-growth
stimulants, and organic sugars. The plant growth stimulant properties of
Maxicrop will enhance natural-growth processes, leading to greater
rooting, while producing strong healthy growth with improved resistance
to environmental stresses. we like this combination of fish ferts and
kelp since it makes a complete feeding w/ the full range of major, minor
and micro nutrients for healthy plant growth. for a normal feeding we'd
use 1 TBSP of Fish fert and 1 tsp of Maxicrop per gallon. since these
are tender lil seedlings we cut everything in 1/2. so the actual ratio
for this feeding was 1/2 TBSP per gallon of fish fert and 1/2 tsp per
gallon of the seaweed extract. some may be wondering why we aren't using
a high nitrogen fish fert since these are vegging plants. we will be in
future feedings but a fertilizer higher in phosphorous will help to
stimulate a strong and healthy root system and that's necessary before
the plants put on a whole lot more foilage up top.

018 LUI-Day-8
019 2-4-1-Neptunes-Fish-Fert
020 maxicrop-liquid-seaweed

LUI Day 9

wow. thanks for all the kind comments folks. we'll try and come back and
answer everything individually here in a sec. but before we can post a day
10 update we need to show our girls on day 9. no special action or care
was taken on day 9. the lil seedlings were simply checked on and admired.

LUI-Day-9

since we provided "ad copy" for the ferts we’ll follow suit where possible
with all the products we use.here's the info on the GardenSafe soil . . .

Garden Safe All Purpose Potting Mix. Aren't all potting soils organic? No!
Most contain synthetic fertilizers and other synthetic additives. Garden
Safe All Purpose Potting Mix is great for growing organic herbs and
container vegetables like tomatoes, but it's also excellent for all potted
flowering and foliage plants! Makes a great soil amendment for organic
gardens, too!

Listed by the Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI) for use in
production of organic food and fiber. Premium blend of Canadian sphagnum
peat moss, composted organic matter with humates, plus perlite for
excellent drainage and aeration. Organic plant food with high microbe
content, humus and organic matter feeds up to nine months. Organic wetting
agent extracted from the desert yucca plant increases water penetration
and uptake we'll attach a pic as well to help folk look for this product
if they are interested. FoxFarm OceanForest would probably be a good
substitute though it seems to be a lil bit "hotter" in terms of nutes. any
good organic potting mix really will do! in all honesty Dandy Don we don't
remember which side of the border we picked this soil up on. we have
friends and family on both sides and tend to pick up a good sampling of
this type of product when we see it on sale at the end of season. we do
specifically remember it being a Wally-World though. the soil is amended
so we could probably go further than day 8-10 for the first feeding. we
like adding some fish fert / kelp though to make sure those lil seedlings
never lack for anything they may be hungry for. but to directly answer
your question DD - there was nothing else added before this first feeding
as for the temp and humidiy guage it's manufactured by Extech. And here's
that ad copy . . .

HYGRO-THERMOMETER CLOCK (Model 445702) Features:
Attractive indicator is ideal for desktop or wall mounting applications
Three large bright LCD's display temperature in both C and F, Humidity and
Time Provides Max/Min readings for temperature and humidity.Measuring
ranges include Temperature -4 to 122 F (-20 to 50 C) the accuracy: 1.8 F
( 1 C) Humidity 25 to 95% RH the accuracy: 6% RH Resolution: 1% RH; 0.1 C
or FClock Function automatically displays 12 hour time with AM/PM
indication when in F mode, and displays in 24 hour time when in C mode
Memory with reset function stores minimum and maximum measurements for
both temperature and humidity Complete with built-in tilt stand, wall
mounting bracket and 1.5V AAA battery Dimensions: 4.3 X 2.8 X 0.8"
(109 X 71 X 20mm); weight 4 oz

022GardenSafe-Soil
023 hygro-thermometer-clock

LUI Day 10

Our lil LUI's aren't so tiny anymore. here's a day 10 shot.

024 LUI-Seedling-Day-10

LUI Day 11

The lil LUI's continue to show great development. individual plants were
rotated in their planting flats to make sure everyone grows straight and
any outer edge seedlings do not lean in towards the light.today the
seedlings got a soil drench with a light fert solution. we've recently
decided to try Age Old Organic fertilizers in our garden so that's what
we'll use for this feeding. but any complete organic fert will do here.
we'll use the ferts at about 1/2 strength again to make sure that we
don't over feed the lil plants. we'd normally use 1 to 2 tablespoons of
the Age Old Organic Grow ferts per gallon so we'll cut the mix on half.
our adjusted rate is 1 tablespoon for every 2 gallons of water. the Age
Old ferts are short on Magnesium so we also added 1/2 teaspoon of epsom
salts to the same 2 gallons of water for this feeding. each plant was
gently soaked until it showed a dribble of runoff.

025 LUI-Seedling-Day-11-Closeup
026 LUI-Seedlings-Day-11 wider

LUI Day 12

as for printing our exact fertilizer routine. that's somewhat hard to do
since it varies some from grow to grow and strain to strain. we watch and
observe our plants closely and feed accordingly. also. we've been
experimenting with Age Old Organics and are still "dialing in" our use.
we'll also use Earth Juice products and guano teas too before it's over.
folks will see everything we feed these girls (for better or worse ) and
get an idea of our feeding patterns as we go. the idea behind the thread
isn't to get folks to copy our technique step by step. the idea is to get
folks to understand the reason and thinking behind our plant care. then
folks can re-create as much or little of our growing style as they wish.
the concept behind the the very first light feeding was a very weak
nutrient mix with a lil extra phosphorous to encourage strong root
development. it wouldn't matter if you used a fish fert / kelp mix like
we did here at "the nest" or if you used a different fert. any weak
"bloom" style fert with some N and K and a higher concentration of P
would work. the second light feeding was a more balanced fertilizer. it's
heavier on the N than the P or K and is 2-1-1 ratio of nutes (the Age Old
Grow is actually something like 12-6-6). so instead of using Age Old
Organics like the 3LB did here at the "bird's nest". any complete organic
grow formula with that kind of balance should work. our next feeding will
be high in nitrogen to really spur some strong vegetative growth. we may
use a mexican bat guano tea or perhaps a 5-1-1 fish fert. either one
would work. it's far more important to understand why we are feeding the
plants what we are than to try and use the same exact fertilizers as the
3LB. we'll probably throw everything but the kitchen sink at these babes
before it's over. every fert in our array can be easily replaced with an
alternative (with the exception of kelp and alfalfa which contain plant
hormones - and SuperThrive has the hormone in the alfalfa). that's one of
the beauties about organic gardening. there's a lot of ways to get great
results.we're interested in showing the variety of choices available to
the organic gardener and what can be done.

027 day-12-LUI

AGE OLD GROW is a fast acting natural high Nitrogen with a 2 to 1 nitrogen
ratio to encourage continued growth and vigor. Age Old Grow is
manufactured by combining fish, seaweed, and naturally occurring nutrients
to form a stable odorless liquid plant food. it's our experience that it
really is odorless and convenient to use and measure. it probably won't
replace Earth Juice fertilizers as our "standard". but the Age Old nutes
certainly offer great advantages in terms of ease of use. we've decided
our next feeding will be a guano tea.it's still at least a day or two
before the LUI's will need another watering / feeding. and since guano
teas need time to "brew" we'll need to start work on this today. here's
the info on the primary ingredient in this tea.

MEXICAN BAT GUANO
This Hi-Nitrogen (10-2-0) Guano from south of the border brings important
nutrients to plants, and adds active micro-organisms to soil. These tiny
organisms unlock nutrients bound up in the soil and break down the
compounds in the guano, releasing major soluble and trace nutrients to
eager plant roots. The result is increased soil porosity and a healthier
root system. this stuff is "hot". meaning it's nutrients are concentrated.
it is an organic fert that has the potential to "burn" plants thru over
fertilization.

028 age-old-grow
029 mexican-bat-guano

knowledgequest
Mar 4, 2006, 02:07 PM
LUI Day 13

We've got 13 LUI's on their 13th day. our lil plants required no actual
care for day 13. but we did mix the guano tea today as advertised. in
essence we are already preparing the first watering of 2004 for these
babes. we mix our teas in 5 gallon plastic gasoline containers. they are
easy and convenient to use as well as durable and affordable. and they are
a great way to "brew up" a good bat or seabird guano tea .we fill the gas
can with 4 gallons of water and then add 3 tablespoons of Mexican Bat Guano
and 3 teaspoons of powdered Maxicrop kelp concentrate. the mexi bat poop is
so strong it has a urea smell to it like. inhaling the dust from powdered
guanos is not very healthful so it's best to wear a mask while preparing the
dry portions of this tea. after dumping the guano and kelp into the gas can
it's shaken vigorously. swished back and forth to mix the ingredients and to
help aerate the liquid. teas brew up best if actually aerated by a cheap
aquarium pump bubbling through the water to make sure the tea stays well
oxygenated. a good thorough swishing every couple of hours can be
substituted for the aqua pump but don't forget! we'll let the tea "brew"
like that for at least 48 hours before use. and since this is a concentrated
tea we will also dilute it before watering our plants. Here's a pic another
lucky #13 shot. this pic will be the same seedling from the last picture.
it's a different angle and separated from it's brother's and sisters to give
a better perspective on this individual plant's growth

030 LUI-Day-13
031 LUI-Day-13-mugshot

LUI Day 14

here's a shot of the whole bunch of our lil LUI's on their 14th day. Louie
LUI. oh baby. say we gotta grow now. yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. maybe
our secret is that we sing to our plants.


032 LUI-at-2-weeks

I have a question though, how do you judge when to water with these big
containers? do you lift the corner, stick your finger in the soil or what?
I am havin a harder time judging when to water with such big containers.

we literally just feel the soil w/ our fingers. and over time we've just
gotten into patterns of simply "knowing" when they need water through
observation and experience. there are thin lil moisture probes that can
take readings w/o distrubing roots and we actually have one but haven't
used it in quite some time. when we water a 2' x 3' container it's usually
with a gallon of water for the entire container. on an extremely rare
occasion maybe as much as a gallon and a half if the atmosphere is dry and
the girls seem especially thirsty. with a moderate watering like that we are
usually watering our blooming girls every other day. but your mileage may
vary depending on strain and your relative humidity and temps.

Although these big containers can be quite heavy when filled with dirt,
plants, etc, IF you can lift even part of em and judge how they feel....the
lighter they feel the dryer they are, that's probably the most fool proof
way of judging moisture content. That being said, (And I'm going to disagree
with tlb about using these meters & "disturbing" roots....I'm thinking here
about what you do when you areate your lawn with one of those pluggers. Last
time I checked my lawn LIKED that. Though not as radical, your pot plant
will too!) there's NOTHING wrong with sticking that probe of an inexpensive
moisture meter into the soil for a reading. In fact, I believe that this
"areation" procedure is beneficial to overall plant health, the reason being
precisely that it does areate the media. I use my meter mostly for this
areation procedure in my larger containers, although I still use the lift
method mostly judging when to water/feed. And I poke the shit out of em!!.
All the way across the top of the dirt. Not all the time but a couple of
times during the grow, areating the soil around your plants (especially if
they have been in the container awhile and are rootbound...think about it)
will also assist in even watering and feeding by eliminating dry spots in
the soil. So poke away. Even if you don't use it like I do, using it when
you have a question about your containers moisture content will only ease
your mind AND help your plants imho. Good luck!! GD (Ganjaden)

I am using 10 gallon containers, one with 2 plants and one with 3 plants.
I've been giving them a lot more water then the birds seem to at almost 2
gallons each. I have not really observed any signs of overwatering except
slight drooping right after the watering which goes away within an hour or
2 I'd say and they perk right up. Do you think this is an acceptable method
of watering as well? What do you think the advantages are to using a much
smaller amount of water more frequently?

LUI Day 15

the advantage of more frequent light waterings is better soil oxygen levels
and therefore better plant vigor and health. we believe in geting the soil
good and damp throughout but never sopping wet. plant roots like a mix of
water, nutrients and oxygen and light waterings provide this. as for the
moisture probe. we think they are great tools but after a couple decades of
gardening such things tend to languish on our shelves . we don't use our pH
meter much either. when we were starting growing such tools were very useful.
the best way to describe the evolution is to say that over time we learned to
watch our plants and learn what they were telling us. the tools (like a
moisture probe) served to teach us what we were seeing in the plants and now
we understand what the plants are telling us without the meters. we did water
w/ our MexiBat Guano tea on day 15. it was diluted 1/4th parts tea to 3/4th
parts plain water and each of the plants was thoroughly soaked. they were not
left in "standing water" but each pot was watered until they began to dribble
some run-off. here's a day 15 shot of a LUI.

033 Day-15-LUI-seedling

LUI Day 16

the intermediate step is usually gallon or 5 quart "ice cream" buckets. from
there we'd normally step up to our 2'x 3' containers but in cases where the
babes are not sexed yet we'll use 3 gallon or 5 gallon containers as the
final destination. here's today's pic

034 LUI-Day-16

the guano tea got used over several days. teas will certainly be good for at
least a week as long as they are kept aerated. but the LUI's aren't our only
vegging plants so they didn't get an "exclusive" on the tea as it was also
shared with others. we actually had some very thirsty vegging plants. you
might say we had a "tea party" over the new year. so we'll be looking to mix
up a different fert mix the next time our lil LUI's need a feeding. a normal
usage for the tea would be to use about 1/2 of concentrated tea as described
(mixing it directly into water). when the can is about 1/2 empty we'll then
"top off" the can with another couple gallons of straight H2O and use that
undiluted until it's gone. it makes a strong tea that will give a great boost
to vegetative growth.the LUI's are showing some great growth and yes they
will be ready for transplanting soon. we usually top clone our girls before
transplanting. but these are growing so well with such tight internodes that
we may end up transplanting first and then taking our top clones afterwards.
we'll watch them over the next few days and decide based on the plant's
needs. right now the plan would be a day 21 transplant. thanks again for all
the nice comments. we're proud of the progress these plants have been making
so far. and we're very proud that this grow and thread are helping to teach
and inspire others. it's that thought. of helping other's grow their own
medicine. that makes the actual time and effort of documenting and
explaining everything worthwhile.

LUI Day 17

Day 17 Care . . . soil surface was "cultivated" gently with a finger at the
begining of the day. by the end of the day the lil LUI's needed a little
drink. the soil surface was dry to the touch and the planters were light in
weight. since they've already recieved 3 feedings in their young lives we
simply watered the whole bunch lightly but evenly with a single gallon of
plain water. Here's today's progress pic and a different look at the same
plant. the 2nd picture shows the "undergrowth" on the lower nodes.

035 LUI-Day-17
036 Day-17-LUI

LUI Day 18

today we gave the LUI's a light spray with a liquid kelp solution. this is
a form of foliar feeding. for now growers this means our plants will
actually absorb nutrients and hormones directly through their leaves. first
the lights in the grow area were turned off as a precaution. cold water
hitting hot lamps can actually cause a bulb to explode so this is primarily
to protect our light bulbs. under intense light it's sometimes possible for
water spots to occasionally cause leaf burning. so turning off the lamps
also protect the plants. 1 teaspoon of MaxiCrop liquid Kelp concentrate was
then poured into a gallon of water and mixed. a quart of this mixture was
poured into a spray bottle a fine mist was applied to all plants in our grow
portion of our garden (not the bloom room). all leaves were thoroughly
drenched top and bottom with the liquid seaweed solution until moisture
dripped freely off the leaf tips. once the plants were thoroughly soaked we
increased air circulation in the grow room for a hour until the plants had
dried. then we turned the grow lights back on. a nice leaf drenching foliar
feeding is just that simple.kelp is magical stuff. it contains a complete
range of micronutrients and also provides a nice boost of potassium. kelp
also contains some very nice plant growth hormones. applying kelp sprays
can speed plant growth and actually increase final plant yields. it also
helps to provide increased resistance to pests, diseases, and a variety of
stresses.

037 LUIs-Day-18

LUI Day 19

as for interrupting the light cycle that's a good question and something
that is pretty commonly misunderstood so thanks for asking! the critical
time for plants is in bloom. Cannabis reacts to extended periods of
darkness and if blooming plants nighttime is interrupted it can cause
problems. but vegging plants are certainly more forgiving. and even with
blooming plants having the lights turned off for an hour or two one day
isn't going to cause problems. the rule of thumb is not to interrupt your
cannabis girls beauty rest at night while they are blooming. but an
interruption in the day cycle isn't such a big thing. the 12 hours of
darkness for bloom are the ticket! we currently use our vegging lights
around the clock so letting our plants have an hour or two of darkness
once every great while is not any big thing.

038 LUIs-Day-19

thanks again for the nice comments obie and DutchMasterZ. we're very happy
with these plant's progress but will give credit where it's due and also
say that these have been easy plants to grow so far. another question has
come to us via PM that we'd like to address publically and that querry
concerns epsom salts and the organic grower. epsom salts is actually
magnesium sulfate so the basic question was how such a chemical salt can
qualify as "organic". the simple answer is to say that there are many
definitions of the term organic and one definition includes pure mined
minerals which have not been chemically processed. a couple of examples
would be soft rock phosphate and greensand which are considered organic
supliments in some circles. a more common example would be the dolomite
lime that is a part of many many soil reciepes. we use a "natural" mined
source of epsom salts (when we have to use it). http://www.epsogrow.com/
is the website of the product. and again in keeping with our practice of
providing manufacturer's "ad copy" we'll do the same for the epsogrow.

EpsoGrow™ is:
• 100% natural Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate) originating from natural
deposits in Germany.
• A quick acting magnesium and sulfur fertilizer for dry or liquid
application.
• Clean and odor free!
• Safe to use around the house, children and pets.
• Non-burning even if recommended application is mistakenly exceeded.
• Used and recommended by professional landscapers and gardeners.
• Used by commercial growers of many crops such as tomatoes, melons,
potatoes, grapes, pineapples, ferns, wheat and many others!
• Being used by professional sports teams to keep their turf green and
healthy.
• Widely used by greenhouses nationwide.

A Natural Source of Magnesium and Sulfur -
A Vital Supplement for More Vigorous Plants
The all natural way to grow like a pro!™
• Brighter flower coloration, longer bloom duration.
• Bigger vegetables.
• Stronger trees, greener leaves.
• Enriches soil fertility.

The secret of the European garden:
Europeans have been using Epsom Salt on their gardens for generations to
improve plant growth. Finally there is an all natural source available
here in the U.S. that's the EpsoGrow advertising department talking. not
the 3LB. but this is a good choice for Epsom salts if they are needed.
we're not going to say we are big advocates of regular use of epsom salts.
in general we believe that dolomite lime is a better source of magnesium
since it also contributes to pH balance. some organic ferts like Age Old
Organics are short on Magnesium. and it's also absent in some common salt
fertilizers like Miracle Grow. magnesium is an absolutely essential
element for healthy rapidly growing cannabis. so epsom salts are a good
tool to have available in the gardener's arsenal of resources.

we're actually in the pleasurable position where these girls are ahead of
our expected schedule. it's hard to believe that they are not quite 3
weeks old yet. but the real easy part is behind us. we're going to be top
cloning them soon so we've got to make room for clones. and these girls
are quite ready to be transplanted up to larger containers as well. so
the 3 birds will actually be having to do some real work with this grow
soon!

knowledgequest
Mar 4, 2006, 02:11 PM
LUI Day 20

our normal routine would be to top-clone these babes and as soon as we're
sure that the new cuttings/clones are rooted. then the originals (from
the seed) move to bloom. so looking at a calendar we'll be doing some
top-cloning in the next few days. then it's probably a couple week wait to
be sure our new "back-ups" are all good. then the originals move to bloom.
if for instance we top-cloned this upcoming weekend. then these babes
would move to bloom sometime in the last week of January. these babes are
growing fast. if we were in a hurry they'd be ready to clone tonight.
since were not in a rush we'll likely transplant them first. then a couple
days later we'll top clone. and then we'll bush them up pretty well before
moving them to bloom one of our "secrets" is patience in veg. healthy and
lush vegetation going into bloom leads to more (and better) final herb.

Let me know if you see a predominant dark green/black/purple coloration in
the fan leaves in Vegatative/Early Flowering. I don't think it's a nute
deficiency. as the plants are exhibiting perfect fertilizizaiton signs
(ever so slightly burnt tips) IMO the sign of perfect fertilizer regimen

039 LUI-Day-20

hey there ~toothy~ . . . it's good to see ya round these parts. we
affectionately call them Louies too and they do already show (at only 20
days) some of the coloration you mention. we wrote it off to the "daylight
fluorescent" effect that sometimes happens under strong fluoro lights of
either sunlight or daylight spectrum. it's something we've noticed with
plants grown under lights that are predominantly above 5000K in terms of
their color temp. we've seen Milly Blunt comment of this effect too. how
fan leaves can exhibit a blueish / black / purple / indigo coloration under
daylight fluoros. and certainly it's not something we see with every
strain. and you are absolutely correct. it does not appear to be a
deficiency in any manner shape or form. anymore we simply associate that
coloration with extreme health and vigor. we'd guess that the plants who
show the darkest coloration like this are generally also the ones who will
show more of these hues when maturing under the correct environmental
conditions. as for the slightly burnt tips being the sign of a perfect
fert regimen. in general we tend to agree. it's actually the sign that
we've pushed our plants ever so slightly beyond the edge but that regimin
tends to also push out the biggest buds. in our Herijuana grow we recently
have found an especially hungry couple of plant's that have yet to really
exhibit that slight leaf tip burn in bloom. even after repeated double
strength feedings with EarthJuice. some strains and some particular plants
will always be an exception to the "normal" rules.

Day 20 Care and Feeding . . .
At the beginning of day 20 we felt the soil of our babes and it was still
slightly damp. by the end of the day the soil was dry to the touch and
the 4 1/2" planters were light in weight. so it was time for a
watering/feeding. today's main ingredient will be . . .Alaska® Fish
Fertilizer 5-1-1 All purpose deodorized fish emulsion.Made from 100%
sea-going fish. Contains over 19 different trace elements, plus 11
different vitamins (5-1-1). OMRI Listed-approved for use in production of
organic food. Stimulates soil’s micro-organisms to help build soil
content this feeding will be a fairly heavy one. the first truly full
strength feeding we've given these babes. we mixed 1 Tablespoon of the
fish ferts and 1 teaspoon of the liquid Maxicrop kelp concentrate per
gallon of water. and soaked the soil of each plant until there was some
runoff from the drain holes on each plant. a few minutes later we went
back and dribbled just a lil more into each planter. in all we used 5
quarts of the mixture to water/feed the 13 "Louies". we'd like to point
out again that it's not necessary to purchase every individual product
we use in this thread to recreate our results. the mexi bat guano tea we
applied recently provides a similar nutrient benefit to this fish fert
feeding. we are trying to show a wide variety of products and explain the
thinking behind each feeding so our results can be recreated with
whatever product is available locally. wonderful grows can thrive with as
small a selection as 2 or 3 different ferts to recap what we've done so far
in terms of watering .the very first light feeding was actually a bloom
fert mix very diluted - in what was basically a 1-2-1 ratio of N-P-K. if
memory serves correctly we then watered with a very diluted balanced fert
mix with a 2-1-1 N-P-K ratio. and we followed that with a high nitrogen tea
similar to a dilute 5-1-1 fert. then our plants got a light drink of pure
water. now we've hit them with a full strength 5-1-1 fert again enhanced
with kelp on day 20. a folair feeding with diluted kelp extract finishes off
the listing of what these girls have gotten so far. that's everything through
their first three weeks.

040 alaska-fish-fert

after discussion amongst "the flock" it's been decided that tonight will be
the night we work some cloning magic. woodstock is our magic cloning
birdie. so we'll be documenting our cloning techniques later on and the
next time you see the babes they'll be getting "topped".

LUI Day 21 - 3 weeks of LUI

here's a couple of shots at day 21. we'd planned on cloning tonight. but even
the best laid plans oft go awry. we didn't have the soil mix we use for
clones (which is identical to the seedling mix). so we'll have to put off our
top-cloning for another day or two. the babes are doing great so waiting
another day won't hurt a thing. but it would have been nice to get moving.
shot two shows the whole bunch of girls. the rack is 4' long and the trays
are 18" wide. so that means that these 13 LUIs have basically filled in a 6
square foot canopy in only 21 days. from seed! not bad for a bunch of old
dirt farmers.

041 LUI-Day-21
042 LUIs-Day-21

LUI Day 22

tonight we top cloned our babes. if we're fortunate enough to get a 100%
success rate at rooting this will provide us with a prefect set of back-up
clones so the original babes can be moved to bloom. our soil mix for clones
is the same mix as seedlings. 1 part vermiculite, 1 part perlite, and 2 parts
good organic soil. we suggest wetting down the vermiculite and perlite before
mixing to cut down on potentially hazardous dust. and we also suggest wearing
a protective mask. gloves aren't a bad idea either when mixing soil. though
to be honest we kind like putting our hands in the dirt like the original
seedlings. we'll again use the square 4 1/2" planters. each planter is filled
to the top with soil mix and then soaked very thoroughly. a broken piece of
bambo stake is used to prepare the hole in the center of each planter for the
cutting. and then we get ready for some action as the powdered rooting
hormone is dumped out onto a plastic lid.

043 clone-step-one---prep-the-soil
044 clone-step-two---prep-the-hole
045 clone-step-three---prep-the-root-hormone

when top-cloning seedlings it's important to begin keeping specific track of
individual plants. so we label each LUI with a number 1 thru 13 and create 2
sets of labeled ID stakes. one for the clone and one for the original parent.
while the original seedlings move through the bloom cycle we'll be able to
nurture their back-ups and save the keepers. in essence this top-clone will
turn into a "mother" plant for any keepers we might select. we use a exacto
knife with a razor sharp edge to actually take our cuttings. any razor blade
edge should work. we've also tried using pruning shears and other similar
sissors type impliments but found that they cause more "crushing" plant
damage and result in a lower rooting success rate. the actual cutting is
taken at an angle across the stem. immediately after the cutting is taken
the entire freshly cut top is dropped into a waiting pitcher of plain room
temperature water. we get all of our garden water from two sources. straight
from the cold water tap or from our dehumidifier. we always let our tap
water sit at least 24 hours to adjust to room temp.

046 clone-step-four---prep-labels
047 clone-step-five---take-cutting
048 clone-step-six---cuttings-into-water

the next step after letting the fresh cutting sit in water for a few moments
is to prep the cutting itself. we tend to take fairly long cuttings and trim
off at least one node of leaf growth. our experience is that roots can
develop all along the surface of the cutting which is underground. but the
first roots usually start showing where the original cut was made and where
other leaf nodes have been trimmed. we use a plastic lid to hold our rooting
powder since it is flexible and can be gently curled around the cutting to
help coat what will be the underground portions of the stem. we use a nice
thick layer of powdered rooting hormone all around the stem. the powdered
rooting hormone sticks nicely to the freshly wet stem. with the holes
already prepared all that's left to do is place our cuttings into their new
homes and gently push the wet soil into contact with the plant stem. it's
that simple! we have great success with this cloning technique and rarely
have anything less than a 90% success rate. and finally a pic of a pair of
finished clones. nestled into soil and ready to start shooting out roots

049 clone-step-seven---prep-cutting
050 clone-step-eight---roll-in-powder
051 clone-step-nine---put-in-soil
052 finished-clones

Oops, sorry to break the apparent trend, but I have a slightly technical
question. I'm just curious about your opinion of the Age Old nutes. I see you
have used them already (I think... not completely sober right now).

the Age Old Organics look to be very good ferts. in a direct comparison to
their most popular competetors (FoxFarm and EarthJuice) we'd say that the Age
Old Organics beat the FoxFarm "hands down" in terms of overall quality. They
beat the EarthJuice in terms of ease of use the EarthJuice line of products
will likely remain our primary choice for complete fertilizers. but we
certainly wouldn't steer anyone away from the AgeOld Organics. and for folks
who have issues with odor or dificulty mixing fertilizer mixes in advance.
then the Age Old would become the choice.

Hey do you use a dome with your clones, or spray them with water?

the correct answer is . . .C - none of the above we don't use a dome (we
found them more trouble than they were worth) and we don't mist our clones
either (ditto). we just keep them in a moist high humidity environment. for
the first few days after cutting we'll maintain an inch or two of water in
the bottom of the nursery flats that the 4 1/2" pots are in. it keeps the
soil damp and relative humidity high w/o the bother of a dome or misting.
for the record we'll be keeping an eye on the clones too as part of the
"grow along" and reporting on their progress and care. so we'll keep
everyone informed about both sets of babes!

LUI Day 23

today is Day 23 for the seedlings and Day 1 for our LUI clones. the 13
original seedlings were watered tonight with about a gallon of water shared
equally between them. we used the Age Old Organics grow formula to feed the
babes with this watering. when our seedlings were top-cloned last night they
were all given a tiny drink of pure water. and tonight they were already dry
to the touch and light in feel (or is that dry to feel and light in touch?).
the babes are drying out pretty quickly now and are pretty good sized for
plants in a small 4 1/2" planter. so they'll need to be repotted this
weekend. it's very likely our next LUI post will end up being a few pics and
a lil mini description of repotting. it sure looks like our lil darlings
have already outgrown their first homes!

053 LUI-Day-23---1-day-after-topping
054 LUI-Day-After-Topping

LUI Backup Clones Day 1

here's a peak of the little top-clone babes that were taken last night. no
action was necessary. they were just admired. our "cloning cabinet" is just
over 4 feet in length and about 10 inches deep. it comes out to something
like 3.75 square feet if memory serves correctly. after some searching we
were able to find standard 4' fluorescent fixtures which were slim enough
(with the bulbs set close enough together) that a pair of fixtures would fit
in our cabinet. so that's a total of 4 x 4' fluorescent bulbs lighting our
cloning cabinet. 160 watts of mixed daylight spectrum, sunlight spectrum,
and growlight bulbs. that's more watts per sq foot than most folks use to
root clones. it's a fairly recent discovery here but we've found that the
increased light has also increased our success rate. if using this level of
light with clones it critical to pay attention to temp at the clones level.
while we want to provide lots of light energy for vigorous growth. we also
need to avoid "cooking" the leaves before the plants develop roots. 75
degrees F with humidity something around 60% or 70% seems to be ideal.

055 LUI-Clones---Day-1

we've generally run our vegging lights on 24/7 so rarely do we have much
"sex expression" while in the veg state. we've actually been planning on
cutting our veg room back to only 18 hours of light per day in order to cut
down on our hydro bill. in some cases that change can be enough to trigger
sex expression. we'll be seeing soon for ourselves how the LUI's react on
this one!

LUI Day 24

the LUI's are looking very nice and filling in the canopy nicely where the
top clones had been taken. here's a few views.

056 LUI-Day-24-Top-View
057 LUI-Day-24-Under-Canopy
058 LUI-Day-24

knowledgequest
Mar 4, 2006, 02:14 PM
LUI Backup Clones Day 2

these clones were given a little drink of pure water today to make sure they
stay well hydrated.

059 LUI-Day-2-Clones

Today we plan on repotting our original 13 LUI babes into little bigger
homes. as you may remember we started back on December 15 with these babes
in standard 4 ½ inch square planters. they are quite convenient since 8 fit
to a standard planting flat. we usually count on them sustaining at least 3
to 4 weeks of growth before transplant. the next step up here at the bird's
nest is to 5 quart utility buckets. ice cream buckets of a similar size are
often available for folks who indulge in such. and generally any 1 gallon or
5 quart container will do. our current preference is for buckets where the
plastic is kind of "frosted" but still somewhat translucent. it allows for
observation of the root ball's condition at a glance. we can literally watch
waterings seep down into the root ball and can watch root development
through the sides. one of our growing friends from CW turned us on to the
potential of the "see thru" sides in terms of observing root growth and
watering (thanks KK!). and it certainly doesn't seem to bother the plants at
all that their roots get a lil bit of diffused light! Our planting mix will
be all commercial products. we’re doing this in keeping with our hope to
make this grow as accessible as possible. we want folks to be able to
reproduce our efforts and not think that what they see is due to our
“magical” soil re-mixes. in general we do believe that our harvest weights
and final quality are better when using our re-mixed soil which has
literally been built and nurtured here at the nest for the last few years.
perhaps when we show the clone generation growing out we can put them in a
composted soil re-mix for comparison. we're going to mix together 3 basic
products for the LUI’s to grow in for the next stage. we’ll mix one part
mushroom compost with one part FoxFarm Ocean Forest potting soil and then
we’ll add perlite until it all “feel” right. so the basic recipe is as
simple as a bag of the FFOF and a bag of the shroom post. and then enough
perlite to make sure the soil will be well aerated. Here’s a description of
mushroom compost we’ve copied from another online source . . .

MUSHROOM COMPOST . . . Commercial mushrooms grow in a specially formulated
and processed compost made from wheat straw, hay, corn cobs, cotton seed
hulls, gypsum and chicken manure. The 3 to 4 week long composting period is
closely supervised and managed to assure that the composting temperatures
exceed 160°F for a few days in addition to a steam pasteurization which
occurs about one week before mushroom. spawn is mixed with the compost.
Finally, a layer of sphagnum peat moss mixed with ground limestone is top
dressed onto the compost, and mushrooms grow on the peat. When the harvest
if finished, farmers steam pasteurize everything in the growing room and
dispose of the peat moss and compost that remain. This product is sold as
mushroom soil, spent mushroom compost (SMC) or spent mushroom substrate
(SMS). Mushroom soil is great for gardens as a slow release organic
fertilizer (2-1-1, pH 6.8) when mixed into soil or as a mulch one year and
a soil amendment the next. With SMC there need be no concern about heavy
metals or pesticides since the compost ingredients have very low levels of
heavy metals. Mushroom farmers have used integrated pest management
practices for decades and pesticides are rarely used on mushroom crops.
With steam pasteurization, all weed seeds are dead as are any insects and
other pests that might be present. So that’s a description of the mushroom
compost which is a great soil amendment or even stand alone soil medium.
for this grow we’re going to mix it with FFOF. th FoxFarm OceanForest is a
great stand alone soil medium itself. but for most folks it’s very
expensive. we’ve heard of some lucky folks finding it through their local
Home Depot but this seems to be the exception rather then the rule. mixing
it with the mushroom compost “cost averages” a great cheap soil medium and
a great expensive one here’s a product description for the FFOF soil mix. . .

FoxFarm 100% Natural & Organic Ocean Forest Potting Soil. FoxFarm Ocean
Forest Potting Soil is a powerful blend of Pacific Northwest sea going fish,
crab meal, shrimp meal and plenty of earthworm castings, nature's finest soil
amendment. FoxFarm has added composted forest humus and selected peat mosses
to create the optimum organic medium for a versatile planting environment.
Ocean Forest Potting Soil starts seedlings naturally so they can become
strong, vigorous plants. Plant directly into FoxFarm Ocean Forest Potting
Soil for exceptional results, it's ready-to-use. No additional ingredients
are required. Use as a potting soil for indoor or outdoor potted plants.
Perfect for vegetables, fruits, herbs, flowers and berries. Also makes a
great soil amendment for gardens, trees, shrubs and roses. Super start for
seeds and seedlings. Light texture for excellent aeration and drainage
properties. No additional fertilizers needed for as long as 30 days. Ideal
for flowers, gardens and houseplants. Loosens clay and rocky soils while
promoting nutrient uptake by plants. Contains composted forest humus,
sphagnum peat moss, Pacific Northwest sea-going fish, crab meal, shrimp
meal, earthworm castings, vermiculture compost (bedding material and
manure), sandy loam, perlite, fossilized bat guano, granite dust, Norwegian
kelp meal, and oyster shell (for pH adjustment). that's the "story" on the
FFOF soil. mixed together with mushroom compost it has the potential to be a
great soil medium for our little LUI's. add a lil perlite and were sure the
babes will be in heaven! it's a busy day at the nest. but we'll try and be
back later with some transplant pic.

ok then . . . on to describe a simple soil mix. As indicated we'll be using
the FoxFarm Ocean Forest potting soil and mushroom compost. the FoxFarm
comes in a 1.5 cubic foot bag. we dumped a bag and a half of the FFOF (2.25
cubic feet) into a 50 gallon rubbermaid container where we mix soils. and
then we added an equal amount of mushroom compost. we have mushroom compost
in 1 cu foot bags. so 2 and one quarter bags of mushroom compost were added
(2.25 cubic feet). here's a pic of the mushroom compost and FFOF side by
side in a container.

060 FFOF-and-Mushroom-Compost

next we mixed the FFOF and the mushroom compost together. this mixture was
rich and heavy. so comparison in the front of this pic is a smaller bin of
our "seedling/clonining mix" which is 50% organic potting soil and 25% each
perlite and vermiculite. as we said it was a nice rich organic mix. but a
little bit "heavy" for our taste. so we'll add perlite for areation. we
added a total of 25 quarts of perlite to the 4.5 cubic feet of potting mix
and the perlite spread on top of our soil mix is shown in the second photo.

061 Patrially-Mixed-FFOF-and-Compost
062 Perlite-Added-to-FFOF-and-Compost

as we've said before here and in other threads. when handling perlite (or
vermiculite) it's best to wear a mask. we also tend to wet down materials
like this if possible. the same rule holds true when working with other
potentially hazardous organic materials like bat and sea bird guano. they
can’t really be wet down like perlite. but they may harbor bacteria which
cause respiratory inflammation or infection and are of special concern for
folks with pre-existing lung related illness or compromised immune systems.
dust masks are always prudent when handling powdered garden materials! this
final soil shot is the finished product all mixed together. it's darker and
richer than our seedling/cloning mix which is shown for comparison. more
mature plants get a richer and heavier mix to sustain heavy growth!. but it
is significantly lighter than the mushroom compost or even the FFOF alone.
since we want to keep the roots well aerated.

063 Final-FFOF-and-Compost-Mix

that container is just for soil mixing and storage Badtolz. tonight we're
going to be transplanting 13 LUI's into 5 quart containers. that means
they'll barely touch the soil we mixed up. there's probably 40 gallons of
soil mixed there. when we use our 2'x3' containers each holds more than 20
gallons of soil. so it's pretty easy for folks to understand why we learned
to remix our soil endlessly and effectively.

LUI Day 25

We'll be showing these girls getting transplanted. but wanted to get the
day 25 group shot shown. the next time these babes are shown as a group they
will be into new homes. someone mentioned stretch and these girls show a lil
bit more stretch than might be expected for a couple of reasons. the
topping/cloning we did took the best / tightest growth off of these plants.
that does some funny things to plant growth hormones for a few days. most of
the plant growth hormones are concentrated at the growing tip. topping
causes the plant to "redistribute" growth and spreads those hormones for a
time. we cut each plant back to 3rd complete pair of nodes. 6 total branches
per plant. so these remaining branches were lower / smaller branches that
had been fairly well shaded. with transplanting and a lil time to recover
from topping (which difuses growth hormones out throught the plant). things
should tighten back up well and soon.

064 LUI-Day-25

here we show the first three pics of our LUI getting transplanted. the babes
are watered lightly using plain water to help make sure their root ball
slides out of the planter more easily. then we squeeze the sides of the
4 1/2" planters lightly to help encourage the root ball to come our whole.
and with a little shake to help get them moving. we gently slide it out of
the planter. the final pic of these three shows the root system these babes
have grown in less than a month.

065 repot-1
066 repot-2
067 repot-3

the LUI was gently placed in it's new home. the 5 quart buckets aren't a big
step up from the 4 1/2" pots. but they'll serve nicely for a two or three
weeks until these babes are basically ready to move into bloom. a couple
inches of fresh soil mix are placed in the bottom of the container. we used
three heaping handfuls of dirt. after sliding the seedling into place. we
gently add enough dirt to fill around the edges and shake it down to compact
it without pressing. it's just that simple and our LUI's already look happy
and content in their new homes!

068 repot-4
069 repot-5

and here's a final Day 25 photo with the plants in their new "digs"

070 LUI-Day-25-After-Transplant

quote: I can also see you gave them another nice drink after you put them in
their new homes.

Absolutely DutchMasterZ . . .thanks for pointing this out because it's
something we forgot to mention. we review the thread over the last few days
from time to time to make sure we haven't missed anything. so we probably
would have caught this omission. but we appreciate you noticing and not
letting us forget! yes, the babes were given a good drink once they settled
into their new homes. when transplanting we like to use a "root drench" with
kelp concentrate. folks have already heard us rave about the "magical"
properties of kelp concentrate. about how it has a complete range of
micronutrients and provides potassium. and how it also provides some nifty
plant hormones. so we wont bore them with a complete recap. simply suffice
it to say that we like kelp at transplant time too!. we think it helps to
ease plant stress and generally provides a nice tonic for our babes. A
teaspoon of kelp concentrate per gallon of water provides a nice root drench
for general use or folair feeding. two teaspoons per gallon is a
significantly stronger mix and is our preference for watering at transplant
time. after transplant the LUI's in their new homes got about 1.5 gallons of
the kelp solution spread out between the 13 siblings.

LUI Day 26

today's shot.

071 LUI-Day-26

there is no real odor to these soils beyond a sort of general earthy aroma.
the FFOF has a kind of a forest litter sort of smell but nothing strong. the
mushroom compost is darker and richer but didn't carry much scent at all.
the perlite has a nasty white dust if it's not wet down and is actually the
most bothersome of the bunch to work with.

DAY 27

though the plants appear to be looking great overall they did show some minor
transplant stress. the mushroom compost/FFOF mix actually seems to be a
little bit rich in transition from the seedling mix. a couple of the babes
showed the slightest bit of burn on thier leaf tips. as these plants moved up
in containers they also moved under a different light array. we've got about
300 watts of bright white fluorescent growlight at this stage. it's something
a growing friend passed us recently in trade. a 6 x 54 watt T-5 4 Foot
fluorescent fixture. covering a 4' x 2.5' or 3' footprint that's something
like 27-32 watts per square foot. a couple of the plants show a slight sign
of heat stress on the leaves. it looks somewhat like a radiant heat/light
burn. this isn't logical since these plants are actually short and squat
examples. they actually sit slightly below and further away from the light
source than their siblings who show none of same "burn" symptoms. probably
this is a reaction to the stress of repotting. the lights were raised far
enough that heat should not have been an issue. and siblings next to them and
higher than them in the canopy look perfect. so it's probably nothing of
concern. likely we'll give a light folair feeding tomorrow to ensure
continued vigor. as you can see from the attached Day 27 pic. we are being
somewhat hyper-critical. the plants look great at a glance. once these babes
get over any stress associated with transplant. this will be the the stage
where we expect most strains to really "beef up". the 5 quart containers
support strong growth to more than a foot in height. and the strong white
light will promote good vegetative growth and short internode length.

072 LUI-Day-27

knowledgequest
Mar 4, 2006, 02:20 PM
LUI Day 28

yesterday was DAY 28 . . . due to a uncooperative camera battery and a
limited schedule we don't have an "in progress" shot for this day (which
marks the end of their fourth week). the battery is now fully charged. and
soon we'll be purchasing a back-up battery so this won't happen again since
the babes were a little stressed from transplant we did raise our light array
for 24 hours. we only raised it a foot and lowered it again to a normal
height as soon as a day had passed. the 6 x 54 watt T-5 fluoro array is by
far the brightest fluorescent light we've ever seen. so we decided to give
our freshly transplanted babes a lil break from the intense light. the lights
were raised part way through day 27 and lowered on day 28. our normal height
for this light array is something in the range of 6" to 10" from plant canopy
(depending on air circulation and room temp). so we raised the whole array up
to about 18" for a day to give the babes a little break in intensity. we did
water with plain tap water yesterday. since the soil mix was a rich organic
base they should have plenty of available nutrients to support vigorous
growth without any added nutrients for a watering or two. when we say "tap
water" we suppose we'd better clarify. we're talking water from the cold
water tap that has been allowed to sit for a minimum of 24 hours. hot water
heaters tend to concentrate mineral content. so water from the hot water tap
is avoided. we work hard to build and maintain healthy populations of
beneficial microbes in our soil. so using water with chlorine isn't on our
agenda. that's part of why we suggest that water sits at least 24 hours
before use. the chlorine gas which is dissolved in many water supplies will
disappear within 24 hours if allowed to sit uncovered. the other reason is
to allow the water to moderate to room temperature. during the winter
season some tap water can come out cold enough to shock plants and their
roots. some nutrients become unavailable at colder temps so we try to use
water that's near room temperature.
EDIT - we want to add that letting the water sit on a cold cement floor is
only a little better than cold winter tap water in most cases. if your water
is standing on cold cement we suggest sitting it instead on a cheap plastic
mat or similar insulation.

LUI Day 29

The LUI's are continuing to look great overall. strong growth has resumed and
our babes are turning into little bushes! here's one, and the same plant from
the side.

073 LUI-Bush---Day-29
074 LU---Day-29-Side

although they were just repotted a few short days ago. these bushy babes have
already pushed some nice looking roots to the sides of their planters.

075 LUI---Day-29-Roots

and a peak at the clones. they aren't looking like much but the work is going
on underground (hopefully!). some folks mist or spray their clones. or use
humidity domes. we just rely on the moisture held in the seedling mix.

076 LUI-Clones---Day-29

LUI Day 30

if you look back a page or two you see that they were all top cloned a few
days back. each plant has 6 ver nice arms. some are more symmetrical than
others. but all were cut back to the same node when top-cloned to make later
comparisons's easy. on feeding they've been fairly normal. the mix of 50/50
Mushroom Compost and FoxFarm OceanForest was a lil bit "hot" for them for a
day or two after repotting. but they were growing great again in no time.
and here's day 30.

077 LUI-Day-30

in this close-up folk can more clearly see the very minor leaf tip burn we
mentioned. they can also see the nice short internode length we're getting on
the new growth.

078 LUI-Day-30-Closeup

and finally for day 30 here's a group portrait. here folk can see a little
more of the leaf tip burn we referred to and some plants that express a
little bit what looks like radiant heat burn on portions of large fan leaves.
looking back at our log and pics it appears that this likely occured the day
of transplant. some of these babes may have grown up a lil bit too close to
their light source the day of transplant. either way it's fairly minor damage
and the plants are certainly not showing any lack of vigor today due to this
small prior stress. we do watch our plants pretty closely. and we try our
best to notice all the details. we're determined to show all those details as
best we can. and a lil leaf tip burn and a tad bit of radiant heat burn on a
few odd fan leaves is evident. we're just being honest.

079 LUI-Day-30-Group-Portrait

LUI Day 31

One month from popping their heads above the soil.

080 LUI-Day-31

Here's a group shot of the LUI's. they are getting so big it's almost hard to
call them babes. they are turning into legitimate lil bushes. Day 31 care
included a watering with Age Old Organics. 2 oz of Age Old Organics grow
formula and one heaping teaspoon of epsom salts were mixed with 4 gallons of
water. we then added a tablespoon of molasses to the mix as a "sweetener" to
help encourage the growth of beneficial microbes. the whole mix was shook
vigorously. about 2 gallons of this were used to give our thirsty LUI's a
sweet frothy soothing drink.

081 LUI-Day-31-Group

here's a little closer look at a clone on Day 31. fluorescent bulbs come with
a variety of sizes and outputs. the T-5 bulbs are much smaller in diameter
than the "standard" T-12 Flouros. because they are smaller in diameter they
can be placed closer together to create a more intense and effective
fluorescent light array. the T-5 bulbs and fixtures are more expensive than
standard fluoro fixtures & bulbs. but they offer increased efficiency and
they certainly give us better light penetration then standard fluoro bulbs.

082 LUI-Day-31-Clone

LUI Day 32 - Group Portrait

here's the (no longer so lil) LUI's. these babes are turning into quite the
bushy little plants. here's a nice one. and pictured with an individual LUI
@ Day 32 for perspective is a Gallon of FoxFarm GrowBig fert. it's not our
favorite fert and we honestly believe that the Age Old Organics and Earth
Juice are superior products. but it's something we purchased a while back to
try and we do use it once in a great while when the mood strikes. we mix the
FFGB at the rate of 1 TBSP per gallon. the thirsty girls in our garden soaked
up about 2 gallons on Day 32. in keeping with our standard practice of
providing "ad copy". here's what the Fox Farm ad wizards say. FOXFARM GROW
BIG Works fast to encourage lush, vegetative plant growth by providing an
extra boost of nitrogen (12-7-7) and important trace minerals. Huge plants in
a hurry! Spectacular green growth which leads to larger, brighter flowers. A
complete, organic-based liquid plant food blended from blood meal, earthworm
castings, and Norwegian kelp. Suitable for all plant types as a foliar or
soil fertilizer. One-two tbsps. per gallon.

083 LUI-Day-32-Group
084 LUI-Day-32

LUI Day 33

Here they are on day 33. no additional care today. we just admired the
beauties and gave them encouragment.

085 LUI-Day-33

LUI Day 34

these babes are growing like weeds. everyday we go to the garden the growth
is visible and obviously apparent. the vigor of these plants is certainly
impressive. as for DutchMasterZ's comment that they are ready to be forced.
we agree that they are certainly at the point where they could be moved to
bloom. if we were in a hurry we could have moved them to bloom at about day
31 or 32. we're letting them go a little longer for 2 reasons. the first is
personal preference. the second reason is simply practical circumstance.
first off our preference is to veg our plants a little bit longer than the
average grower. we're usually rewarded with above average yields as well.
getting a few days extra veg growth can increase yields by ensuring plants
have a strong well developed root system and also a few extra nodes of
growth. circumstance also dictates that the LUI's wait a few more days
before their move to HPS light and a 12/12 light cycle. we did not
anticipate that the LUI's growth was going to be quite this explosive.
there is no room in our bloom room for them yet. even if we felt the LUI's
were ready to bloom. the rest of the garden isn't ready for them the LUI's
were a thirsty bunch on day 34. we gave them a drink of about 2 gallons of
water total between the bunch. since they've grown to a pretty good size
and are in 5 quart containers. we'll anticipate that they will need to be
watered every day from now until they get transplanted into larger planters.

086 LUI-Day-34

allrighty . . . time to answer some questions . . .

part of the reason for chosing to move our plants from the 4 1/2" pots to 5
quart containers instead of their ultimate destination is space
considerations. if we moved them straight to 3 or 5 gallon containers they
would take up more space in veg than we prefer to devote. normally the
pattern is to move from the 5 qt buckets to our 2'x3' containers with 2 or
3 plants per container. since the LUI's are not sexed this isn't so simple.
the 3 gallon or 5 gallon buckets they will move into are really a
compromise.

Artful . . . this was actually a very good observation. if room allowed
there'd be no reason to have the intermediate 5 qt buckets. and we'd be able
to transplant directly into 3 or 5 gallon planters. a transplant from 4 1/2"
container to 3 gallon planter would be a fine move. as for your particular
plants Artful. don't think of them so much as on a time table but instead
watch them and observe their growth. when they are 12" to 16" high then it's
time to start thinking about a move to bloom. that's also somewhat dependent
on how much the plants streeeetch too. to answer your question more directly.
basically we'd forget about time your plants sat and didn't grow. think of
them as almost new babes from the point you started feeding them and they
started growing again.

as for the questions from 23 . . . we'll have to look back on the calendar
to be sure. but it's around two weeks now on the clones and they are all
still alive. we're planning on shooting some clone pics tonight. some clones
look better than others (as is usual) but it looks as though all will survive
and eventually thrive. the clones sit as "back-ups" and will continue vegging
while their parents grow out. the very first grow on a plant doesn't always
indicate it's full potential so we'll be watching and noting differences. as
we make decisions on keepers the process will continue. after one grow we
usually eliminate 1/2 of the girls and cull the ones we don't like as much.
we'll top clone again and repeat the process with another grow (or two) until
we've found our final keeper(s). we expect that we will transplant all of
these babes before moving to bloom. moving them to bloom first and only
transplanting the females is certainly a good alternative option . but since
we reuse our soil we don't lose anything (but a lil time) by transplanting
them all. since we have back-up clones on the whole bunch. we can simply cull
males after they show sex and compost the plant remains. if we decide later
we want any LUI male pollen for a breeding project the back-ups will be
waiting.

and last but not least - the alfalfa tea question. yes we'd planned on using
some as a foliar feed and and for a root drench too. but the alfalfa has a
growth stimulant and these babes are growing like weeds! we're already
concerned they will be a lil taller then we prefer when moved
to bloom so giving them an additional growth stimulant seemed redundant.

LUI Day 35

Our LUI's at Day 35 continue to show strong growth. they were watered again
(more lightly) with plain water for a second consecutive night.

087 LUI-Day-35
088 LUI-Day-35-Group-Portrait

knowledgequest
Mar 4, 2006, 02:22 PM
here's a peak at one of our LUI clones. looks as though they are rooting
fine.

089 LUI-Clone

it's interesting that someone mentioned sparse undergrowth. actually it's
very good timing since we did a little pruning last night and the exact
purpose was to avoid similar problems. let us explain. when we top cloned
these babes we left 3 pairs of branches on each plant. some plants have
responded to the topping/pruning by growing 6 strong arms. but some others
have only grown 4 significant branches with two branches that are smaller
and are more than just undergrowth. our experience is that smaller lower
"sucker" branches contribute little. the do not recieve enough light to be
significant resources for photosynthesis. and they do not generally produce
any significant yield after harvest either. in fact all the stem growth that
goes into these "sucker" branches can actually sap plant resources. this
lowers final total yield. adding insult to injury is the fact that the buds
that are produced on these lower branches tend to be of a lower quality as
well. in the first pruning pic we see a plant with a couple of weak arms that
are only going to detract from her final production. so we take corrective
action with our pruning shears in pictures 2,3 and 4. the final pruning shot
better illustrates what was removed.

090 LUI-Undergrowth-1
091 LUI-Undergrowth-2
092 LUI-Undergrowth-3
093 LUI-Undergrowth-4
094 LUI-Undergrowth-5

there certainly is some difference between plants grown from seed and those
propigated from clones in terms of their structure and growth patterns. we've
found that trimming of undergrowth is even more necessary with our cloned
babes. but your mileage may vary. our timing for this pruning is deliberate.
we normally do this ritual removal of "sucker" branches about a week before a
plant is rotated into bloom. these babes are growing fast. so it won't be
long before they are forced to flower. the LUI's were originally "on the
calendar" in our minds for a move to bloom about this time next week. our
garden is in constant motion with a few plants going into the bloom room and
other's being harvested on a pretty regular rotation. with the LUI's growing
so fast it'll be interesting to see how we manage this "problem". undergrowth
can be pruned at any time. there are a couple of times it seems to make
particular sense to us. we generally will prune about a week before moving
our babes into flowering and then do some "touch up" again a week or two
later. throughout bloom we'll keep an eye on this lower stem area and keep
pruning "suckers". the pruning we did is small enough that it is not very
visable except from those lower branch shots of the undergrowth. from above
those branches were completely shaded by the other branch's aggressive
growth. to illustrate the difference between individual plants the developed
4 strong branches and those that formed 6 strong limbs we're including a
comparrison pic. the plant on the left had 4 strong arms and had some
undergrowth pruned. the plant on the right developed 6 good limbs and didn't
require any pruning at this time.

095 LUI---L4R6

Quick question: those branches you've just cut off, can they be cloned, and
get new plants out of them, or are only "suckers" to be used, for clones?
. . . DD . . .

they sure could be used for clones. absolutely! that's a great point and
we're glad you brought it up. since these babes haven't been sexed yet and
it appears we have a rooted "back-up" clone for each. so there was no need
to take any more clones here at this time. using these smaller sucker
branches for clones is a great method to propagate more of a particular
plant ready to move to bloom without much effecting it's final yield. we'd be
looking to do exactly that if any of our numbered back-up clones had failed
to root. our trimmings from this stage will get composted back into our soil
re-mixes. our general rule of thumb is to compost all old fan leaves and all
veg trimmings. this way no garden trash ever exits the grow area and it's
also an effective way to recycle the nutrients contained in the plant refuse
sometimes it pains us to "throw away" perfectly good cuttings. but we do have
limit our plant numbers.

LUI Day 36 and friends

Here's a Day 36 shot. we caught some of our garden helpers in action. the
gnomes are the real secret to our success. at least since the Hobbits moved
out. and a closer look at a growing tip to show the internode length.

096 LUI-Day-36-and-friends
097 LUI-Day-36-Branch

I have a simple question...will you be keeping the plants grow from seeds as
a mother. Or will you use one of the clones as a mother? And why?

we'll be blooming the originals from seed and keeping the "back-up" clones as
potential mums and dads for any "keeper" plants. they why is simple. the
parent and clone are identical in terms of genetics. the original parents
from seed are already maturing and are at the size to be bloomed. so in terms
of efficiency it just makes sense to bloom the original. the clones will
continue to grow as their parent's flower. they will be ready to be
mother/father plants in their own right by the time the originals are done
blooming. we can't make selections based on quality until we see the end
product anyway.

LUI Day 37

another day and more visible growth from the LUI'. since they are growing so
quickly and with such vigor we again used just plain water. a balanced grow
fert would have been appropiate but these girls just don't need any extra
encouragement.

098 LUI-Day-37
099 LUI-Day-37-Sea-of-LUI

we missed getting in pics or posts on Day 38. sorry about that. life happens
even for birds. the plants did get one more drink of plain water during Day
38. we could have used any of our standard grow fertilizers again but chose
not to. since these babes are already as tall as we want when we move plants
into bloom. we didn't want to encourage any further vegetative growth. today
is day 39 and later today we plan a transplant into 3 gallon planters and a
move to the bloom room. we should have pics of all that later.

in terms of when we first feed from above. it's just by watching the plants
not a specific day. and that's generally true with everything. we grow based
on the plant's progress and needs rather than any artificial timetable. we
made the move to bloom today. this included a transplant to 3 gallon planters
and a move to the 12/12 light cycle under HPS lights. details and pics should
follow if time allows.

LUI Day 39 - the backup clones

first we wanted to give the "teaser". we had 100% success with our LUI
back-up clones and want to show them off first. the LUI appears to clone
easily since it's grown nice extensive roots already. some of the other
strains we grow are really just starting to get decent roots at this point.
the LUI's backups have a strong root network. one reason we want to show this
first is to remind folks it's best not to move your plants to bloom until
you've established that your back-ups are rooted and ready to go. clones can
still be taken from a plant after it's been moved to bloom but they are
usually much slower to root.

100 LUI-Clones-on-Day-39-from-Germination
102 LUI-12-Clone-on-Day-39-from-Germination
103 LUI-Clone-showing-roots-Day-39-from-Germ

we culled our first LUI today as well. LUI 13 is showing some male
pre-flowers and was culled today. although we are considering the LUI for
potential breeding. we don't want a male who's so eager to show off his stuff
in veg.

104 LUI-13-male-pre-flower

when we culled LUI #13 we also pulled the back-up clone. here's a peak at
some of the root system it developed.

105 culled-LUI-Clone-showing-roots-Day-39
106 culled-LUI-clone-roots

here they are their final moments in the "grow show" before they move to the
"bloom room". for soil we used the same mushroom compost and FoxFarm
OceanForest mix we'd used previously in the prior transplant to five qt
buckets. this time the step up was to three gallon planters. after transplant
each LUI bush was given a good drink of pure water. between the dozen babes
we transplanted we used about 5 gallons of water total.

107 LUI-Day-39-Group
108 LUI-pre-transplant-day-39
109 12-three-gallon-planters-waiting
110 LUI-mid-transplant-day-39
111 LUI-Day-39-in-3-gallon-planters

since the LUI's were a little "fast". their vegetative vigor was better than
anticipated (a good problem to have). they pushed us into moving them into
our bloom room before we had planned. this entailed a minor reconfiguration
in our bloom room for a few days. our "normal" bloom room array is 10 2'x3'
containers arranged to give a footprint of 12'x5' under three 600 watt PL
Lights with air-cooled hoods. we also use track light movers to spread the
light and eliminate "hot spots" directly under the bulbs.

12 x 5 = 60 sq feet
600 x 3 =1800 watts
1800 watts / 60 square feet = 30 watts per square foot

that's our "standard" bloom room array. but one of the beauties of the 2'x3'
containers is the way we can configure them in multiple ways inside a 12'
wide footprint. eight containers can fit a 12'x4' footprint. and twelve
containers can fit into a 12' x 6' footprint. since the LUI's were "early".
we accommodated them by a temp reconfigure of our bloom room to fit 12
containers. the temp footprint is 12' x 6' = 72 square feet. under 1800
watts that actually lowers our watts per square foot to 25 watts per sq
foot. it's below what we'd suggest to new growers but some growers such as
"the Tick" at OG have had success with this seemingly low watts per sq foot.
in our opinion it takes a very experienced gardener and a tweaked garden to
pull off. this change in footprints is only possible because of our light
movers. in a few seconds we can change a screw setting to allow a longer run
and spread the light over a little more garden. we've got a couple
containers of Herijuana very near harvest. and we'll be culling LUI males
from this grow. the garden will be back to it's normal footprint before the
week is out. but for now we wanted to share how we accommodated our fast
growing LUI friends. we’ve placed 4 LUI each in their 3 gallon planters
inside our standard 2'x 3' tubs ( they serve to catch any watering runoff or
spills and to keep our garden configuration neat ). so that means there are
a total three 2' x 3' containers of four LUI eac. a total of twelve LUI’s
moving to bloom.

we’ll anticipate something close to a 50/50 sex ratio. so we’d expect
something around 6 females. maybe 7 or if we’re really lucky 8 girls.
depending on how tightly we want to pack them in their final array this means
we’d expect them to likely occupy two or perhaps three of our 2'x3'
containers once the males have been culled. this is why we put them 4 to a
container now. they already occupy the largest footprint we’d expect from
them. and culling the males will make more room for the girls as they grow
and bush out.

LUI Day 40 - Day 1 Flowering

here's a beauty at day 40, then a look at the nice tight internodes, and a
couple wider shots including one of the whole bunch of LUI's. the three LUI
buckets are in the foreground backed up by a container of Herijuana which is
not too far from harvest. in these pics the redish orange quality of the HPS
light really shows.

112 LUI-Day-40
113 LUI-Day-40---internodes
114 LUI-Day-40-Sea-of-Louie
115 LUI-Day-40-against-wall

and the report wouldn't be totally complete without a couple of clone pics.
the clones were fed a full strength Age Old Organics Grow mix yesterday.
this was simply what we were feeding our other vegging plants. it proved to
be a little bit on the "hot" side for the clones first feeding. and we
experienced a little leaf tip burn. normally we'd feed a more diluted fert
mix for clones first feeding and then increase the dose from there. feeding
them a full strength fert was simply a moment of absentmindedness. they
should be just fine but we will want to use plain water for their next
watering.

116 LUI-Day-40-Clone-10
117 LUI-Day-40-Clone-12

want to know our secret to cloning? . . . we learned to clone on a difficult
strain so now everything else seems easy. there really isn't anything special
besides the garden gnomes. we've read the book chapters and magazine articles
and internet posts etc on the subject through the years. and we really don't
see anything very difficult about learning the skill. although we have one
bird with a particularly good touch that does most of our cloning. all of the
3LB's have cloned with 90% or better success. although we all had
agricultural backgrounds. it's not like we learned cloning "down on the
farm". this is one skill that we learned along the way. just like everyone
else. way back when we started cloning our success rates often were very low.
our techniques were only slightly different but we’d often only have 40%
success. the big change happened when we learned to use a razor blade to take
our cuttings rather than sharp scissors.

knowledgequest
Mar 4, 2006, 02:25 PM
LUI Day 41

here are the girls on Day 41. the LUI's recieved little care besides a simple
"rotation". we simply repositioned our 2'x3' containers that hold the LUI's
in their 3 gallon planters. since they are on wheels (the containers sit on
furniture movers) this is simple and takes seconds. we spun one container 180
degrees and moved it to where it's neighbor was and then did likewise with
the others. it took less time to actually do than to describe here the
rotation helps to keep all the canopy growing straight and even.
118 LUI-Day-41
119 LUI-Day-41-Sea-of-Louie
120 LUI-Day-41-after-rotation

on Day 41 we had to mix our nutrient mix for Day 42. this is the downside of
using Earth Juice organic fertilizers. they are quite acidic from the bottle.
we mix them 24 hours in advance and aerate. for this feeding we are using
Earth Juice fertilizers. they are the organic "standard" in our minds. all
the others are good but Earth Juice seems to really provide the most
explosive growth. they are also the most expensive fertilizer in our garden.
we used what we call our "bloom micro-blast" recipie. this is a one time
feeding we always give all our blooming plants soon after their move to
bloom. for every gallon of water we add . . .

1 TBSP EJ Grow
2 TBSP EJ Bloom
1 tsp EJ Catalyst
1 tsp EJ Microblast
1 tsp EJ Meta-K

this mix will "brew" for a day before use. as per our usual practice we'll
show the ad copy from a website describing these products . . .

EARTH JUICE GROW AND BLOOM
The World's Proven Choice in Liquid Organics. EARTH JUICE is NO borderline
organic. There are NO hidden NPK boosting synthetics such as urea, calcium
nitrate, potassium nitrate, precipitated bone meal, muriate of potash,
phosphates, etc. EARTH JUICE doesn't add any chlorine or use formaldehyde.
EARTH JUICE contains no artificial additives or colors.

Nor is EARTH JUICE a simple plant tea or a fish based fertilizer. It's the
most complex active & complete liquid organic formula available today. EARTH
JUICE contains an array of natural nutrients & treats for plants. The active
nature of EARTH JUICE lets plants focus their energy on growing, flowering &
fruiting rather than on searching for food. EARTH JUICE will not burn your
plants or harm the soil. In fact, it'll encourage the microbial activity in
the soil, thus improving it. EARTH JUICE fulfills the concerned gardeners
need for a nontoxic and safe alternative that will provide thriving plants,
abundant yields and peace of mind.

EARTH JUICE MICROBLAST
Earth Juice Microblast contains essential trace minerals your plants need.
Critical for hydro-organic growing, these minerals are found naturally in
soil but need to be added to your hydroponic garden. Earth Juice Microblast
is a crucial supplement to Earth Juice Grow and Earth Juice Bloom in your
hydroponic garden.

EARTH JUICE CATALYST
Use the Catalyst to complete your fertilization program and provide that
crucial link to maximize results. Add 1 teaspoon per gallon to your
fertilizer to give aid in production by providing the missing enzymes,
hormones, vitamins, amino acids, sugars, and plant acids. For use with
Organic or synthetic fertilizers in soil, soil-less, rockwool, hydroponics
and hydro-organics. DO NOT use with synthetic slow release fertilizers.

EARTH JUICE META-K
A natural potassium formula for those plants that require more potassium,
such as maturing tomatoes and peppers. Recommended for turf and especially
for plants growing in areas hot, dry climates to help build drought
tolerance.

121 EJ-Grow-and-Bloom
122 EJ-Microblast
123 EJ-Catalyst
124 EJ-MetaK

LUI Day 42

here's a look at our LUI's on day 42 and then a couple closer views. on
day 3 of 12/12 HPS light the last pic shows a budsight under construction.

125 LUI-Day-42
126 LUI-Day-42---BIRD-S-EYE-VIEW
127 LUI-Day-42-JOG
128 LUI-Day-42---COLA-UNDER-CONSTRUCTION

your males should be popping up real soon so keep your eye on them luis and
keep us posted.

you are exactly right DMZ . . . for sure we'll say "timber" and chop em
before the pollen starts to fly. but we're not in a terribly great hurry to
cull the males. we'll want to watch them carefully as they continue to
develop and take some mental notes. if the LUI is as potent as some folks
report we may want to find a Louie "stud" to cross with some of our other
girls.

LUI Day 43

here's our LUI "kids" on day 43. they are way too big to be called babes
these days it seems. and they are just starting to "enter adolescence" and
start down the road to sexual maturity. you might say they are just hitt
ing
puberty. the LUI's show some continued growth/stretch every day. with a
strain like this which was growing with such great vigor that's to be
expected. no watering or special attention was necessary for the LUI's on
Day 43. like a teenager they were content to be left alone to "hang out"
with thier friends. at least these "kids" won't ask to borrow the car! and
these boys and girls won't sneak out at night either. however this is the
age where we have to start keeping them away from the gnomes! - hehehehe

129 LUI-Day-43

another look at the LUI's on Day 43 . . .they seem to be looking good the
"bloom micro-blast" feeding we gave them on Day 42 is our way of giving
them the best nutrient boost we can during this critical time. the first
two weeks of bloom are a critical time for flowering plants. not only are
the plants changing from a grow metabolism to a flowering one. this is
also the time of the most "explosive" growth we usually see from our
plants. "capturing" this growth spurt now is one of our secrets to having
beautiful and bountiful buds later.

130 LUI-Day-43-from-above

only day 4 of the 12/12 cycle. we do already have some, at least one male
"showing his stuff".
they do develop quickly and certainly aren't shy about "showing their
stuff". likely we'll get into the culling process more seriously this
weekend.

131 he-has-balls
132 LUI-Day-44---dude

LUI Day 44

here's the bunch of babes on day 44. Day 5 of bloom. the "Louies" needed no
care this day. we just checked on and admired them. the soil surface was dry
for most of the plants. but upon inspection the soil beneath was still damp.
so no action was necessary.

the LUI's were probably 14-16 inches tall when moved to bloom. that's
probably about normal but every strain has it's own quirks. we tell when
they're ready to bloom by size and vigor. if a plant has a definciency or
problem we'd delay moving them to flower until thier problem is well
resolved. six 3 gallon buckets can fit into a 2'x 3' container. but we
usually grow bigger plants and limit the final count to between 2 and 4
plants per container.

133 LUI-Day-44
134 LUI-Day-44-side
135 LUI-Day-45

LUI Day 45

here's a couple pics of our LUI's on Day 45. if folks are curious about how
much they've stretched so far. the door jam and hanging electrical cord can
serve as a frame of reference from earlier photos. they've stretched a few
inches it appears. later today we'll cull some males. then see what's left
behind in terms of "plants of the feminine persuasion".

136 LUI-Day-45
137 LUI-Day-45-closer

it's been a little while since we've shown our LUI clones. so here's what
they are looking like today. definite 100% success rate with the LUI
cloning and they are all looking pretty good. the clones were given a nice
drink of plain water today until there was some slight runoff from each
planter. and then a little closer look at one of our LUI backup clones on
day 45 from the plant's germination. some minor leaf tip curling and some
leaf tip burn are evident in this shot. this goes back to the accidental
feeding with full strength ferts a few days back. it won't effect any
future growth and the plants are really thriving now. so in the end "no
harm no foul".

137 LUI-Day-45---LUI-Clones
138 LUI-Day-45---LUI-5-clone

we culled 5 LUI males today. one was culled earlier. so we had a total of 6
LUI's express as male out of 13.

139 culling-LUI-males
140 more-LUI-males

so that means we had a total of 7 LUI's out of 13 (54%) expressed as female.
the LUI girls were watered today. 1 TBSP of 2-4-1 fish fert and 1 tsp of
Maxicrop liquid kelp concentrate were mixed in each gallon of water. each of
the seven LUI girls got a 1/2 gallon drink. the water mix is very slowly and
carefully poured on to cover and wet the entire soil surface. we also
rearranged these babes in the 3 containers they had been sharing with "da
boyz". that means there are two containers with 2 plants each and the third
2' x 3' container holds the 3 smallest of the LUI girls. it's kind of a
toss-up at this point if we use two or three containers to hold our 7
remaining ladies. using 3 containers (18 sq feet) allows more light to
penetrate and will likely lead to somewhat higher overall yields. that's
what we're doing right now. using 2 containers (12 sq feet) would likely
lead to a somewhat diminished overall yield but a greater final gram per
watt figure since these babes would be using less of our garden space and
some other plants could then move into our bloom area. at least that's what
we'd logically expect and project in yield expectations. here's a day 45
look at the girls all spread out and "sunning" themselves.

141 LUI-girls-after-segregation

LUI Day 46

we checked the LUI girls for moisture. no watering was needed. we did take
the time to "cultivate" the soil surface on our LUI's. smoothing the soil
surface with our fingers and pushing loose soil into the inevitable "crack"
where the plastic 3 gallon container and the soil meet. as soil dries it
contracts some so filling in around the edge like this is a regular thing.
the soil surface "cultivation" (cultivating means smoothing the soil
surface with our fingers and pushing loose soil around and into the
inevitable "crack" where the plastic 3 gallon planter and the soil edge
meet. as soil dries it contracts. with some soil mixes the soil surface can
develop a hard crust. smoothing the soil surface by hand helps to avoid
cracks and depressions where water might pool or run-off. and smoothing off
elevated areas that might shed water helps to ensure that plants get an even
watering) is something we try to do every few waterings. it helps the entier
planter full of soil to absorb moisture (and nutrients) more evenly. if soil
settling occurs we'll normally "top dress" with composted/remixed soil or
mushroom compost. we didn't rotate the actual containers but instead rotated
the individual plants. turning each one between 90 and 180 degrees to
encourage even growth from all the LUI girls. the amount we turned each
plant was dependent on our eye and experience with plants. normally we are
growing with the entire 2'x3' container full of soil and don't have the
luxury of turning individual plants. caring for our LUIs and tending to the
rest of our garden for the evening took less time than the Super Bowl awards
presentation.

142 LUI-Day-46

LUI Day 47

the first two pics show how our LUI girls continue their vigorous "stretch".
as we've said before it's hard to call it stretch when it's just a
continuation of the strong growth this strain exhibited while it was vegging
in the "grow show" portion of our garden. each of the 7 remaining LUI girls
got a nice slow 1/2 gallon drink with plain water. because the soil surface
had been "cultivated" the day before. this watering soaked in very evenly.
we've shown some close looks at the boys who started "showing their stuff",
so the third pic is a closer peek at one of the girls

143 LUI-Day-47
144 LUI-Day-47-side-view
145 LUI-Day-47-closeup

LUI Day 48

here's how the LUI clones are doing on day 48 from original germ. and
individual LUI clone @ 26 days from cutting

146 LUI-Clones-Day-48
147 LUI-Clone-Day-48

LUI Day 48 - Day 9 of Bloom

and here's a look at LUI on day 48. the 9th day the LUI girls have been on a
12/12 grow cycle. the LUI's didn't need any attention other than to be
admired, but on day 48 we had to raise the HPS light to avoid burning the
delicate new growth.

148 LUI-Day-48
149 LUI-Day-48-raise-that-light

knowledgequest
Mar 4, 2006, 02:28 PM
LUI Day 49

here's a look at the whole bunch of LUI girls on day 49. we normally run at
about 30 watts per sq foot. we can get away with less. and certainly more
light is an option. but with top-notch reflectors 30 watts per sq foot is
what we consider to be the "standard" in our garden.

150 LUI-Day-49

LUI Day 50

here's a look at the LUI babes on day 50. they were each watered with 1/2
gallon of our standard fish fert and kelp mix (1 TBSP of 2-4-1 fish fert
and 1 tsp of Maxicrop per gallon of water). a different look at the LUI's
on day 50. if you've been watching the "landmarks" in the pics. ie the
plant's progress against the door jam and the hanging electrical plug. you
can see that the LUI's continue to stretch at a pretty good rate.
considering that they've been topped and each plant's growth is divided 4-6
ways between each of thier individual branches. their continued vigor is
certainly impressive. in addition to their "seafood" diet of kelp and fish
ferts. most of the LUI's were rotated on day 50 to encourage even growth.
since the LUI's are in individual 3 gallon planters. it's simple to move
and rotate both the individual plants and the 2'x3' containers they are in.
a third pic offers a closer view.

151 LUI-Day-50
152 LUI-Day-50-side-view
153 LUI-Day-50-cola-construction

Thanks 3LB! I especially like your common sense approach to most things in
your garden. Your very concise explanation of 'how to' is great for
everybody...especially us new growers. You've confirmed a lot of what I've
found to be true through the years, and cut through all the 'mystery'. Take
cloning for example. your method is straight forward and 'old school'. I
know that a lot of 'newbies' get confused with all the elaborate cloning
methods, equipment and all. when in reality it couldn't be simpler. I have
been cloning all kinds of plants for years using the simple method my mother
taught me. I take some cutz (using a very clean sharp instrument) and simply
put 'em in a cup of water mixed with willow bark tea for a day or so, and
put the cup right under the lights. I then rinse the cup out and refresh it
with plain old tap water. the chlorine in the water definitely helps. every
other day or so for about a week. No wilting, and the leaves remain lush and
green! By then 'little bumbs' appear all over the stem. I then simply take
the cutz trimming the very ends once more and 'pop' em right in the soil mix.
No fuss, no mess, no misting, and no special equipment. Works every time!
Once the leaves start to 'yellow' slightly, I know it's time to feed 'em!

LUI Day 51

here's our LUI babes on Day 51. that's the 12th day in bloom. they continue
to "bush up" and stretch. although it looks as though the vertical stretch is
slowing some. no special attention today. the Louie girls are on an
every-other-day watering schedule right now. getting 1/2 gallon per plant
each watering. nothing is "written in stone" and we water based on need
rather than a schedule. but that's where the LUI's are at for the moment.

154 LUI-Day-51

LUI - Day 52

the LUI's each got 1/2 gallon of our standard fish fert / kelp fert mix on
day 52. heres a beginning look at LUI Day 52. they are going to get some
special attention later today.

155 LUI-Day-52
156 LUI-Day-52---side

the first two pics are a look at the buds which are forming on Day 52. which
is just short of 2 weeks into the bloom cycle. and to add even more
excitement to our day. we got a very kind PM from a very well respected
source who gave us a few hints on some settings with our camera. thank you
from the bottom of our avian hearts S. we've already seen an improvement in
the color quality of our photos. our earlier day 52 shots were nice, but
this is a significant improvement. thank you again. we are in your debt.

157 LUI-Day-52---side-budlet
158 LUI-Day-52---budlet
159 LUI-Day-52-top
160 LUI-Day-52-top-b

in birdie lane there is a barber showing photographs
of every "head" they've had the pleasure to know
and all the birdies that come and go
stop and say hello
in the corner is a container with some bushy plants
we see the LUI sitting waiting for a trim . . .our apologies to John and
Paul.

the LUI's were trimmed tonight. we strip some of the lower growth to
"focus" the plant's energy upward. lower branches usually produce thin
wispy buds yet use lots of plant energy producing stem and stretching for
light. so we generally strip a few inches upward from ground level. this
also serves the purpose of increasing airflow through the lower portions of
the canopy.

161 LUI-Day-52---Sitting-Waiting-For-a-Trim
162 LUI-Day-52---Sitting-Waiting-For-a-Trim-2
163 LUI-Day-52---Sitting-Waiting-For-a-Trim-3

and here's a peek at the LUI clones on day 52. they continue to show
outstanding vigor. as for LUI clone transplant? the LUI's are ready to be
moved up into bigger homes today if we want. want to come help? in all
seriousness. they truly could be transplanted into bigger containers now,
but as fast as these LUI's grow, they'd be full sized and ready to move into
the bloom room again in no time. we're not quite ready for that yet. so we
may have to use a variety of "tactics" to slow them down. one of those
methods will be to delay transplanting. this will slow growth some but this
can cause it's own set of problems. as plants become root-bound they are
much more likely to experience nutrient deficiencies. and they become much
more sensitive to other problems like heat and water stress. we'll also have
to do some growing tip pruning. probably another "top-cloning" like we
originally practiced to get these clones. that's at least a few days away.
but that's likely where we are headed with this 1st generation of LUI clones.

164 LUI-Day-52-Jungle-of-Clones
165 Mothers-and-Others-Against-Prohibition

so if i was to trim up the bottom leads from the stalk of the flowering
plants would it increase my yield? or just increase the size of the top buds?

it might increase your yield bigmak. mostly because your plant doesn't spend
as much energy building stems with flowers that won't collect any light or
really contribute anything. the primary benefit. at least from our
perspective. is that it increases the quantity of better quality buds. lower
buds tend to be skimpier and less potent anyway.

Have been afraid to trim lower branches during flower, as had read posts
claiming that it might cause stress that could lead to hermaphrodites. Any
truth to that in your experience?

we've never had any problems like that obie. we usually do our trim somewhere
about a week before the plants move to the 12/12 light cycle. and again
around the 2 week mark in bloom.

LUI Day 53

here are the LUI's on Day 53. they are developing very nicely.

166 LUI-Day-53
167 LUI-Day-53-Side-View
168 LUI-Day-53-close-view

what we're using is considered a bloom fert. we consider it an "early bloom"
fert. we'll try and illustrate / explain. as an example . . . Age Old
Organics Bloom formula is 5-10-5. lot's of folk use that as their bloom fert
with good result. that figures to a 1-2-1 nutrient ratio although fish ferts
are often associated with a vegging fertilizer. that's primarily true of
fish emulsions. the fish emulsions we have seen and worked with are generally
in the range of 5-1-1 nutrient ratio. that's a good vegging fertilizer. but
you are right. it would be a poor choice for blooming plants. for LUI bloom
nutrients we are using Neptune's Harvest Fish Fert which is 2-4-1 nutrient
ratio. we're using that in combination with Maxicrop liquid seaweed which is
basically 0-0-1. so in effect our Fish Fert and seaweed mix is 2-4-2 in
composition. that's the same basic 1-2-1 nutrient ratio as the Age Old
Organics. we believe this is the correct ratio for the first few weeks of the
bloom cycle. since plants are "exploding" in growth during this time. some
nitrogen is in order to help fully capture the growth spurt that often
happens when a plant begins to bloom. after that we'll shut off the Nitrogen
entirely by switching to EarthJuice Bloom or an Indonesian bat guano tea. as
for analyzing the stretch these babes have experienced. it is absolutely
within the expected range. we figured on a doubling in size. and after more
than 2 weeks in bloom they are still short of that.

If you were to use this solution ,made of Neptune’s harvest, and the maxicrop
liquid seaweed. How would you incorporate it with the age old organics? Would
you add ½ age old with ¼ seaweed and ¼ fish fert, or would that be to hot?

bleedgreen . . . what you suggest is possible. but the outcome when combining
a variety of different ferts is more unknown. the simple answer would be to
alternate rather than combine the 3 different ferts. for example. we'd use
the fish fert / kelp mix for one watering and then the Age Old Organic's for
the next. in fact. using our ferts that way is fairly normal at the nest. as
we've said before. it's more important to understand the thinking behind our
gardening decisions than it is to follow the exact products or methods we
use.

LUI Day 54

LUI Day 54. we rotated the LUI's into a new position in the grow room. take a
look and then a little closer look at the developing flowers.

169 LUI-Day-54
170 LUI-Day-54---closeup

LUI Day 55

here's the pic of the Day 55 LUI girls.

171 LUI-Day-55

16th Day @ 12/12 here's a little closer look at the developing flowers.

172 LUI-Day-55---cola-construction
173 LUI-Day-55---budshot-1
174 LUI-Day-55---budshot-2

Day 55 LUI Care & Feeding

our sweet LUI girls got a little attention on Day 55. first we mixed up a
fert mix using Age Old Organics Bloom Fert and some Epsom Salts. our
standard method of mixing ferts uses 5 gallon gasoline cans we bought
specifically for our garden. we begin with 4 gallons of tap water that's
been allowed to sit for about 48 hours. allowing the water to sit moderates
it's temp. if you are using treated municipal water this also allows chlorine
to escape. for 4 gallons of water we added a total of 4 oz of the Age Old
Bloom. the Age Old Organics comes with a built in measuring mechanism which
is very handy for measuring and pouring out ferts. so this is simply one
"measure full" per gallon. since the Age Old Organics lacks magnesium. we
added one heaping teaspoon of epsom salts to the 4 gallon fert mix. this
probably equals 1/3 teaspoon of the Epsom Salts per gallon. as we've
explained before we use a pure mined mineral form of epsom salts. and here's
the description of this particulars and pics to help id them to help should
either end up on your shopping list.

AGE OLD BLOOM
A fast-acting natural high Phosphorous combination of two of the oldest forms
of fertilizer known, with added micro-nutrients. The odorless concentrated
liquid will encourage early growth, better fruit set, increase germination
rates, help flower and bud formation, and will help overcome stress caused by
natural or chemical damage.

EpsoGrow™:
• 100% Epsom Salt originating from natural deposits in Germany.
• A quick acting magnesium and sulfur fertilizer for foliar application.

175 age-old-bloom
176 espogrowepsomsalts

LUI Day 56

this "portrait" was taken to demonstrate the actual height of the LUI. as you
miight be able to observe. they are almost exactly 2 feet tall from the top
of the planter to the plant tip. and then a couple more looks at the LUI on
thier 56th day from germination. the LUI's didn't need any watering. but we
did rotate the plants to make sure they were getting nice even lighting. the
fourth pic is a budshot of a developing flower.

177 LUI-Day-56
178 LUI-Day-56---group
179 LUI-Day-56---cola-construction
180 LUI-Day-56---budshot

LUI Day 57

here's a look at the LUI's on Day 57. the fert mix for these babes was mixed
up on Day 56 and allowed to "brew" for a day. using 5 gallon plastic gas cans
that were bought specifically for gardening. we started with 4 gallons of tap
water which had been allowed to sit for about 24 hours. then we added 6 TBSP
of Earth Juice Bloom. 1 TBSP Earth Juice Meta-K. and 1 TBSP Earth Juice
Catalyst. this mix was agitated vigorously and allowed to sit for 24 hours.
the soil surface of the LUI's was "cultivated" to help make sure that the
water and fert mix was absorbed evenly. then we gave each one of the LUI's a
1/2 gallon drink. now have a closer look.

181 LUI-Day-57
182 LUI-Day-57-closer

knowledgequest
Mar 4, 2006, 02:32 PM
LUI Day 58

Phenotype - the physical appearance of an organism. Genotype - the genetic
constitution of an organism . . . (Definitions from - Botany for Gardeners)

so the Genotype is the sum of the genetics that the seed carries. in essence
this is the plant's potential. Phenotype is the sum of how the plant actually
grows. this is influenced by the environment the plant's grown in. the
parent's of the LUI are reported to be a Sweet Tooth and an Ortega. both
Indica's. reports from other growers indicate that some F1 LUI's will express
with more of a Sweet Tooth like pheno. and some more Ortega dominant. we're
going to post pics from all 7 of the female LUI's on Day 58 so you can see
and perhaps make some judgements for yourself. the markings on the right hand
margin of these pics are measured from the top of one of our 2' x 3'
containers while resting on the furniture movers that hold them. since the
soil line for the container plantings is slightly above where the soil line
is in these 3 gallon planters. the markings in the right hand margin will be
a couple inches short of the actual height. these plants are all somewhere
around two feet in height. the tallest example are about 2'4". and the
shortest examples have probably stretched to about 23 inches in height.

183 LUI-Day-58
184 LUI-Day-58A
185 LUI-Day-58B
186 LUI-Day-58C
187 LUI-Day-58D
188 LUI-Day-58E
189 LUI-Day-58F
190 LUI-Day-58G

LUI Day 59

here are the LUI girls on Day 59 and three of closer looks on Day 59. that's
day 20 of the 12/12 light cycle. just short of 3 weeks under the HPS lights
and a bloom cycle. since we're projecting the LUI to take around 8 weeks to
finish, they've still got about 5 weeks left to grow. the stretch has
certainly slowed. at 3 weeks it might be a little premature to say it is
totally finished. but it does appear to have pretty much run it's course.
it's not a strain we've worked with before so we can't say for sure. but
we'd expect a couple more inches in height at most.

191 LUI-Day-59
192 LUI-Day-59-closer
193 LUI-Day-59-closer-2
194 LUI-Day-59-closer-3

we gave the LUI babes another 1/2 gallon drink of water instead of
fertilizer. for this watering we added another ingredient we recently
started experimenting with. Fulvic Acid. it's something we've been wanting
to try for a while. then a couple of months back we noticed that Milly Blunt
had been using Fulvic Acid too. we corresponded with Milly on the topic and
we've now just begun our own experiments with it. as has been our practice.
here's the product description . . .

DIAMOND NECTAR
We offer only the highest quality, most effective Fulvic Acid available.
Fulvic acid is the most plant active of the Humic Acid compounds, offering
physical, chemical and biological benefits. Diamond Nectar can be used in
hydroponic solutions or combined with soil or foliar applied fertilizers. It
is rich in both organic and mineral substances essential for plant growth.
Natural buffering, chelating, and extremely high ion-exchange properties
convert many mineral elements into forms easier for plants to absorb. This
results in increased plant vitality, resistance to environmental stress, and
improved crop quality and yields.

we used it at the rate of 1 TBSP per gallon of water and then applied 1/2
gallon of that mix to each of the LUI babes.

195 diamond-nectar

LUI Day 60

here's a fun look at LUI for day 60. 3 weeks into bloom with 5 weeks left to
go. and look at the visible trichs. and a look from a little further back.
the LUI's are still looking great.

196 LUI-Day-60---extreme-closeup
197 LUI-Day-60
198 LUI-Day-60---zoom1
199 LUI-Day-60---zoom2
200 LUI-Day-60---zoom3
201 LUI-Day-60---zoom4
202 LUI-Day-60---zoom5

the average stretch is going to vary a lot from strain to strain. genetics
are the biggest determining factor but there are other influences. for
example, some sativa strains will stretch and continue growing in height for
many weeks. often these are strains like original Haze with very long
flowering periods - blooming lengths well in excess of 10 weeks. there are
some strains that are known for the exact opposite. very little stretch after
the plant begins flowering.

most plants developed 4 nice cola arms. one only developed three good
branches and a another produced 5 good branches. we we originally trimmed to
allow for 6 (3 pairs) per plant but did additional pruning as needed. our
general experience so far is that lower branches and arms that are shaded out
look to produce little with the LUI and should likely be trimmed. we're using
about 3 sq feet per plant at the moment for the LUI's and it seems to be
working great. your personal gardening style will decide what's right for you
with the LUI in terms of space.

the minor move you are asking about. reducing each plant's "footprint" from
21" to 18" squared would likely have only minor effects. we'd not anticipate
any problems with such a layout and it might even be a more efficient use of
space. since we use 2'x3' containers as the basis for our modular grow
layout. we are limited to choosing between 2 or 3 (or more) plants per
container. the current LUI's are growing in 3 gallon planters. and those are
certainly workable for any grow. it was our "standard" before the container
grow evolved. the advantage of the container planting is that is give much
more room for roots to spread out and usually leads to higher yields.

LUI Day 60 - Clones

the LUI clones continue to look great. a few days back they were
trimmed/pruned some. the lowest branches on each LUI were pruned. generally
it was 4-6 small lower branches removed from the mainstem of each plant.
these clone LUI's are much taller than normal for when we top / top clone.
but at the same time we did our lower branch trimming we also topped / tipped
each of the LUI's. we are experimenting with our first attempt at "tipping".
a technique also known as F.I.M. (which stands for Fuck I Missed). it's a
partial topping technique that works to spread the growth hormones that are
usually concentrated in the main growing tip. topping spreads the hormones
out to the other tallest branches. tipping doesn't remove the entire growing
tip so it can spread out the hormones and encourage multiple branches while
still allowing a strong main cola. it's something we are just beginning to
play with. so we experimented with seeing how much of the growing tip
should/could be removed. here's a peek.

203 LUI-Day-60---Clones

LUI Day 61

they are currently around 2 feet in height. some just over and a couple just
under that . . . although we didn't measure with a tape measure (perhaps we
should have). our eyeballs say the plants were in the range of 12 to 14
inches in height when moved to bloom. on day 61 five of the seven LUI's got
1/2 gallon of the same Earth Juice fert mix we used last time.

204 LUI-Day-61

LUI Day 62

here's the LUI look for day 62. the 2 plants who didn't get watering on day
61 got 1/2 gallon of the same fert mix for themselves on day 62.

205 LUI-Day-62

LUI Day 63

the LUI's continue to do very well. they are happy and strong and continue
to grow beautiful flowers. we're a little beyond 3 weeks into bloom. the
three_little_birds don't harvest based on a calendar. instead we harvest our
plants when they are ripe and ready. but a planning calendar can help to
project when the babes might be finished. LUI is usually considered a strain
that matures at about 8 weeks. so the LUI's are closing in on what we'd
expect to be the halfway mark of their time in flowering. on Day 63 the
LUI's who needed watering got another drink of the Earth Juice fert mix we
mixed up a few days before. just to recap that fert mix. we start with 4
gallons of tap water which had been allowed to sit for about 24 hours. then
we add 6 TBSP of Earth Juice Bloom. 1 TBSP Earth Juice Meta-K. and 1 TBSP
Earth Juice Catalyst. Earth Juice ferts are pretty acidic from the bottle so
we always mix them up at least 24 hours in advance to give the pH some time
to stabilize.

206 LUI-Day-63A
207 LUI-Day-63B
208 LUI-Day-63C

LUI Day 64

the Legend's Ultimate Indica (LUI) continue to thrive here at the bird's
nest. on Day 64 they got no special attention. since these are not clones
we've not used our normal rotation of our 2'x3' containers. instead we've
adjusted the LUI females to try and encourage as even a canopy as possible.
this was necessary since we're dealing with 7 varying individuals rather
than copies of only a single plant in each container. this is why we grow
plants in 3 gallon planters rather than in container plantings until the
"keeper clones" have been picked.

209 LUI-Day-64

LUI Day 65

here's the bunch of the LUI babes on day 65. take a closer look at their
progress. on the 65th day of LUI the thirsty girls received a cool drink of
water. 6 TBSP of Fulvic acid was added to 4 gallons of water. each of the
Ultimate Indica's got 1/2 gallon of this mix.

210 LUI-Day-65
211 LUI-Day-65A
212 LUI-Day-65B
213 LUI-Day-65C

LUI Day 66

LUI LUI
oh baby
say we gotta grow now
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah . . .

Get your kicks
on Day 66 . . .

the LUI's didn't require any special attention on day 66 from germination.
we did "cultivate" the soil surface. gently rubbing and smoothing it with
our fingers. it takes less time to actually cultivate a 3 gallon planter
than it does to type in the words here. of course being birds. we are "hunt
and peck" typists. and now on with the show.

214 LUI-Day-66
215 LUI-Day-66A
216 LUI-Day-66B
217 LUI-Day-66C
218 LUI-Day-66D

LUI Day 67

we're just finishing our 4th week of bloom. and if these babes need 8 weeks
of flowering that marks the 1/2 way point of 12/12. on day 67 the LUI's got
1/2 gallon of a water/fert mix containing per gallon of water. 1 1/2 TBSP of
Earth Juice Bloom. 1 1/2 tsp of liquid kelp concentrate. 1/2 tsp Earth Juice
Catalyst.

219 LUI-Day-67
220 LUI-Day-67A
221 LUI-Day-67B
222 LUI-Day-67C
223 LUI-Day-67D

LUI Day 67 Clones

here's a peek at the current state of the LUI clones.

224 LUI-Day-67---Clone-A
225 LUI-Day-67---Clone-B


LUI Day 68

here are the LUI's on day 68. if our count is right they are just beginning
their 5th week of bloom. so that means they've just started on the downhill
portion of their trip through flowering. we think the pictures are showing it
well. they are really looking frostier and frostier every day. we've noticed
that our experiments with fulvic acid really seem to be bringing out the most
in all of our girls. not just the LUI's. there are always times that gardens
look better than other's. in fact, one standing joke among our gardener
friends is that whenever a person might tour another friend's garden the
standard phrase is. "you should have seen my garden last week". hehehaha. we
wish we could give tours of our garden right now. but with these LUI's maybe
it's not so simple either. we're thinking that anyone seeing our garden today
would end up disappointed in a different way. disappointed to not see these
babes in about 3 more weeks. that's when they should hit their visual peak.

Breeder Steve . . . we have to give you your "propers". these are some sweet
plants to grow. and they are sure looking good!

226 LUI-Day-68

shmokin . . . the fulvic acid is an additive we've been experimenting with.
it can assist in the efficient uptake and use of nutrients by our plants.
there are a couple threads discussing it's use in the indoor forum. a quick
use of the search feature here at CW would fill you in on fulvic acid in
short order.

when buds start growing big and heavy we tend to increase airflow and make
sure humidity stays moderate. mold is the concern and it's always better to
prevent problems before they occur than deal with them after the fact.

knowledgequest
Mar 4, 2006, 02:33 PM
LUI Day 69

what number are we thinking of? 69! dude! our apologies to Bill and Ted and
their most excellent adventure. and now the 3LB's most excellent experience
with the LUI's continues. on day 69 the LUI's got a drink of water than had
1 TBSP of Fulvic Acid per gallon. each of the babes got just under a 1/2
gallon of this fluid to help sustain them.

227 LUI-Day-69
228 LUI-Day-69A
229 LUI-Day-69B
230 LUI-Day-69C
231 LUI-Day-69D

LUI Day 70

Legend's Ultimate Indica on day 70 continued to thrive. and we poured on the
nutrients to continue to encourage them to bloom big. each LUI got 1/2 gallon
of a nute mix that measured out at 1 1/2 TBSP of Earth Juice Bloom and 1 tsp
of Earth Juice Catalyst. Day 31 of Bloom. we had to check the calendar just
to make sure. day 70 from germination figures to be day 31 of 12/12.

232 LUI-Day-70
233 LUI-day-70---day-31-of-bloom

and bigmak . . . of course we're going to cure our LUI. just drying da herb
isn't going to produce the top quality smoke we desire. how we dry and cure
our herb depends on our plan for eventual use. the cure isn't as critical for
cooking or hashmaking. but for buds that are going to be smoked it does make
quite a difference in final quality. usually we trim large fan leaves upon
harvest. we'll trim down the smaller leaf at this time as well. then we hang
our herb from a clothesline by their stems (indoors - we're not hanging out
our herb like our laundry). it's best to keep the plants in the dark as much
as possible for the dry and cure to help eliminate some of the "green"
chlorophyll taste. how long the herb hangs depends on relative humidity.
usually it's between 5 days and 2 weeks. they hang until the outside of buds
feel dry to the touch. they certainly aren't fully dried at this point. but
this is where we'd normally finish our trim. the buds are trimmed from the
stem at this point. then the actual cure begins. mason jars are a classic for
curing herb. though when dealing with a "bumper crop" they can be somewhat
inconvenient. if several plants mature at the same time we are often forced
to use larger plastic containers. the secret is a long slow cure which breaks
down sugars. improves flavor. and mellows the smoke.

LUI Day 71

here are the LUI on Day 71. for day 71 care. our LUI got another drink of a
fert mix with earth juice bloom and catalyst. we keep pouring in the nutes
and these babes keep eating them up. here's another day 71 look. day 32 of
bloom. and yes. they sure are looking frosty for only being 1/2 way through
flowering. if nothing else they will likely prove to be a nice plant for hash
making. the camera work in the most recent couple of shots was by
Woodstock . . . she and Tweetie are the award winning photographers.
Woodstock's the youngest of the birds here at the nest and the quietest.
she's a lurker. we usually have to prompt her to post here. here's one last
day 71 shot before moving on.

234 LUI-Day-71
235 LUI-Day-71A
236 LUI-Day-71C

LUI Day 72 - Day 33 of Bloom

on day 72 from germination (their 33rd day of bloom). our LUI's continued to
thrive. and they continued to drink too. several of the LUI's were dry to the
touch again to a full finger's depth. so we watered one more time with the
same Earth Juice Bloom and Catalyst mix as used with the last watering. for
day 72 here's a little bit different perspective. here's abother look at the
33rd day of bloom that hopefully will give a better perspective of these
fattening flowers.

237 LUI-Day-72
238 LUI-Day-72A

LUI Day 73

we found powdery mildew on less than a dozen large fan leaves which had been
sitting directly against a wall in the growroom. the "white scourge" was
confined to 2 plants and was not severe. in fact it was barely noticeable
without a very keen eye. fortunately there are 3 pairs of "eagle eyes" here
at the bird's nest. and this problem was found very early on. the first
thing was to remove all leaves which showed any possibility of involvement
with powdery mildew. we're closing in on the end of week 5 in bloom so we are
truly at a critical point for taking action. much later in the bloom cycle
and this problem becomes increasingly difficult to treat. even now it poses a
dilemma.

Neem oil is a very good fungicide and insecticide and is one favorite choice
for eliminating powdery mildew. it's an organic product from the Neem Tree.
but it can certainly effect final flavor. so we opted to use another organic
method for powdery mildew control. baking soda. also called Sodium
Bicarbonate, or Bicarbonate of Soda.

we mix 1 TBSP of baking soda with a gallon of pure water. this mix is sprayed
on the entire garden as a fine mist until it coats all leaves and runs off.
the baking soda changes the pH balance on the plant's leaf surface and makes
it undesirable for the powdery mildew. we'll spray the LUI's in a day or two
with a good soaking with plain water to make sure her pores don't clog and to
help rinse away the baking soda residue. then we'll increase ventilation and
hope for the best.

the worst case is that our treatment cause more harm by encouraging even more
destructive bud mold. that's not likely but we'll want to make sure our LUI
babes dried out well where the colas are forming. bud mold loves moisture
inside or between buds.

the next worse case is that we effect the final quality of our product but
manage to kill the PM. if we use the LUI for cooking or bubble hash then a
lil baking soda residue can be rinsed away. and considering that we're still
over 3 weeks from harvest. this isn't necessarily going to be a problem.
we'll keep our finger's crossed.

the best case scenario is that the LUI's barely respond to the few lower fan
leaves that were removed. the PM doesn't return and the baking soda residue
is rinsed away. this is our hope since there were little or no signs of
damage by the PM and the baking soda should rinse away with a little effort.
we expect the best case. and are prepared for the worst case.

The baking soda sounds like a good idea. If you are concerned that there
might be some residue left of the plants at harvest, and you have a good way
to dry the buds out, you can always soak the plants in room temperature water
for about an hour right after cutting/trimming to make sure the residue is
gone. The additional water will have no effect other than slightly wetter
buds - the risk is mold in the drying room. Its a tough choice, but I'm sure
you'll choose what is best for your situation . . .b4edgan20 . . .

b4edgan20 . . .b4edgan20 our most favorite Bud Composer. we'd thought of the
harvest rinse idea too. sounds like another case of great minds thinking
alike. if we go that route we could rinse and then trim the flowers off of
the stem at harvest time and lay out on a screen. that almost assures that
the chance of budmold disappears. the buds don't look quite as pretty this
way and it does leave a few of the trichs stick to the screen or rack. but
life is always a compromise.

239 LUI-Day-73
240 LUI-Day-73A

? 3LB How is odor on your girls now that their flowering? Was there a lot of
stretch after 12/12.

pepsi . . .odor is a tough one pepsi since there are usually 4 or 5 strains
going at a time in our garden. we also run a constant carbon filter to remove
odor from the grow the best we can tell so far they haven't been especially
strong in odor. in terms of stretch they roughly doubled in height. actually
just under that. but we topped our plants so growth was divided between
several colas for each plant. this slows down stretch some. with a single
cola LUI that hadn't been pinched or topped we'd expect the plant to double
in height. maybe a little bit more. can't say for sure since you've seen our
current experience with the LUI's. but that would be our experience with
similar plants / strains.

midsummer . . . you are watching us like a hawk. lol. we grow mostly in 2'x3'
containers. and we still do. but this is our first run of LUI and they were
moved to bloom unsexed. when plants are going to have to be culled they need
to go into smaller containers. so we use 3 gallon pots. the next round of LUI
grown at the bird's nest will be in 2'x3' containers. now that they are sexed
and we're growing from clone that's easy to do. the Bubba Kush S1 we are
growing is expected to be all female. so we're still deciding if they will go
directly into large containers for their first grow. or if we'll stay with
the 3 gallon pots their first time through too.

? Have you already decided which of the lui's your going to keep for a
mother. Or are you going to have to go through another cycle with them before
you can decide. If you have chosen one, what is it that you are looking for,
ease of cloning, yield, veg speed etc. . . ddftre . . .

ddftre . . . our primary interest is medicinal. so our first concern is
potency. and there's not a good way to know the best plant(s) until they've
been sampled. we can "eyeball" for trichomes. but choosing based on trich
coverage is no substitute for sampling and long term comparison. and for that
the herb has to be dried and cured. so it's a good thing we are old and
patient birds. eh? all of the LUIs rooted well upon cloning. and all have
done well in terms of vigor throughout their life-cycle. so there's not much
to choose between from those viewpoints. if potency is equal and general
vigor is equal across the board, then the selection comes down to flavor. if
two plants are equal there, then yield is the next factor. one other thing
we've used as "selection" is exposing plants to pests or disease to test for
resistance. a friend with a terrible uncontrolled spider mite infestation can
sample various clones. if one shows more resistance it's the keeper. so
there's lots of factors that can go into choosing the "keeper".

bigmak . . . Earth Juice Catalyst has oat bran, kelp, wheat malt, molasses,
and yeast. and according to the manufacturer's statement. "Natural enzymes,
hormones, vitamins, amino acids, nutrients, sugars, plant acids and
surfactants encourage compact growth, nutrient uptake, increased yields, and
enhanced flavors." it's up to the individual grower to decide if it's really
all that. but we do view it as a great stimulant for beneficial bacterial
activity.

LUI Day 74

our LUI's on Day 74 were treated to a drenching spay to rinse away any
baking soda residue which might have clogged plant pores. 1 TBSP of fulvic
acid was mixed into a gallon of water and applied liberally as a drench. we
really hate getting water anywhere near our buds this late in the game . . .
but we felt that this was a better option than to wait and see if these
babes ended up heavily effected with powdery mildew. as we said before,
there was only the slightest sign of PM infection, so we expect a complete
and full recovery. all of the LUI babes also got a 1/2 gallon watering with
plain water. and that's the way it is. LUI day 74. this is Foghorn Leghorn
signing off for Woodstock. Tweetie. and the whole 3LB cannabis collective.
day 74. the 35th day of bloom. that's finishing week 5 and looking into the
final 3 weeks of bloom. they are looking so nice already that patience may be
a challenge. the LUIs are maturing very nicely. a good friend has suggested
they will continue packing on the weight from here to harvest. and the buds
are already impressive for a 5 week plant. our only concern is the good
soaking we gave them to assure the powdery mildew didn't cause any problems.
we move the LUIs as close as possible to our fans to encourage them to dry
well. and we'll just have to watch and hope we haven't encouraged bud mold.

241 LUI-Day-74
242 LUI-Day-74A

some folk might be wondering how those LUI clones are doing. here's a look.

243 LUI-Day-74---2-clones-in-a-2x3
244 LUI-Day-74---3-clones-in-a-2x3

and the cycle continues.

245 LUI-Day-74---the-next-generation

LUI Day 75

we gotta get our AFLAC birdie bud a garden that looks somethin like this!

246 LUI-Day-75

here's are two "budshot" looks at the LUIs on the 36th day of bloom. these
are some nice dense tight fat buds. even under "only" 30 watts per square
foot. the third pic is a better perspective on a LUI cola. this is one of
the colas on the shortest of our LUIs.

247 LUI-Day-75A
248 LUI-Day-75C
249 LUI-Day-75D

LUI Day 76

250 LUI-Day-76

LUI Day 77

on day 77 the LUI's got a nice drink of the current bloom "standard". Earth
Juice Bloom @ 1 1/2 TBSP per gallon and 1 tsp of EJ Catalyst per gallon.
each plant got a 1/2 gallon drenching after the soil surface had been
cultivared gently by hand.

251 LUI-Day-77

LUI-Day-77A.jpg

first pic is day 38 of bloom. and then a "bird's eye" view. we actually feel
like they are looking a little "weather beaten" after our recent round of
treatments which included a baking soda solution drench and a folic acid
foliar feed rinse. but we aren't complaining. they are looking pretty darn
good!

252 LUI-Day-77A
253 LUI-Day-77B

Hey 3lbs - I've been lurking around your posts for a while and I've got to
say you are fine and dedicated cannabis creators. I gave my last grow a shot
of Benomyl for powdery mildew. Otherwise I would have lost everything. They
say one can apply it on cherries up to like 2 days before harvest. Strange,
no? bye now, delisted.

knowledgequest
Mar 4, 2006, 02:49 PM
LUI Day 78

nothing but loving words were fed to the LUI babes today. here's a look at
the bunch.

254 LUI-Day-78

LUI Day 79

on day 79 our LUI's got what is likely to be their last feeding. we are
considering one more watering with a bat guano tea. but this is the last
time they will get a commercial fertilizer "soup". the original LUI's are
entering "the beginning of the end". they will begin their final two weeks
before expected harvest this weekend. so it's time to cut off thier food and
let them "finish what's on their plate". some styles of growin require a
flush. with organic ferts a true flush isn't possible. we say that in the
sense that organic nutrients aren't soluble salts that can be flushed easily
from the soil. especially if it's amended soil containing supplements like
kelp meal, bone meal, bat or seabird guano. while we don't truly flush our
babes. we do cut off the feedings for the final two weeks before expected
harvest. in one sense this is about economy as much as quality. since
organics are slow release ferts anyway. there's no sense in pouring in
nutrients that will never get to our babes. one old organic adage is "feed
the soil not the plants". since it's the beneficial bacteria and fungi in
soil that convert our organic ingredients into plant food. and at this point
our soil is pretty well done eating.

255 LUI-Day-79

LUI-Day-79A.jpg

as we'd said. this was the last feeding we'll give the LUI girls that
includes any commercial fertilizer. so we finished with a flourish. instead
of 1 or 1 1/2 TBSP of Earth Juice Bloom. this feeding was at 2 TBSP of EJ
Bloom per gallon. folks may have noticed that with EJ products we usually add
1 tsp of Catalyst per gallon. but for this final "meal" that's increased to 1
TBSP per gallon. as per our normal practice all of these ingredients were
mixed in advance and allowed to "brew" for at least 24 hours. this particular
heavy feeding was allowed to "stew" for 48 hours before use. as we said
before. we may give these babes one final drink of a tea. then move on to
plain waterings.

256 LUI-Day-79A
257 LUI-Day-79B

LUI Day 80 - Day 41 of Bloom

258 LUI-Day-80
259 LUI-Day-80A
260 LUI-Day-80B
261 LUI-Day-80C
262 LUI-Day-80D

LUI-Day-80E.jpg

phlegmbae . . . we strongly agree that the grower's attitude has a dramatic
impact on the growth of their plants. and the chef's observations are similar
to ours as well. Timothy Leary spoke of the dramatic impact that "set and
setting" had on someone's psychedelic experience. it seems to have an impact
on our plant's as well. as for our plant's fearing their ultimate ending. we
certainly hope not. we've told our babes that after harvest they will be
cherished even more. perhaps they have even "seen" the care with which we
treat their harvested "cousins". and they should know our great joy and
satisfaction with our finished herbal products. besides. even as they are
harvested. they live on. their clone back-ups sister's are growing right next
to them. they "know" if they are exception they will literally live forever.
isn't that some incentive to express their very best? we also are thinking
that these LUI's are kinda vain. they sure seem to like having their
photographs taken every day. we've also told them they are stars here at CW.
lot's & lot's of folk stopping in to look at them. just another reason our
LUI babes are always "looking good". they are primping and posing for the
camera. and for their audience.

263 LUI-Day-80E

LUI Day 81

on day 81 the LUI's got plain water with the addition of Fulvic Acid. 1 TBSP
of fulvic acid per gallon of water. the 7 LUI babes share 2 gallons between
them.

Group Portrait 264 LUI-Day-81
265 LUI-Day-81A
266 LUI-Day-81B
267 LUI-Day-81C
268 LUI-Day-81D

LUI Day 82

got no special attention. they were admired and encouraged.

phlegmbae . . . we're still fairly new ourselves with Fulvic Acid use. and
are experimenting with it's use here at the nest to see how and when it's
most effective. we're not so sure ourselves about foliar feeding this late
in a plant's life. we know some do it. but in some environments and with
some strains it's an invitation to bud mold. and we're also not so sure we
want to smoke herbs that have been sprayed with anything in their last
couple weeks of life. here's how were looking at it right now. one of the
effects of the fulvic acid is as a chelating agent. it helps to make
nutrients more available to our plants. so in this instance we're using the
fulvic acid like a flush. added to the plain water it helps to bring the
remaining nutrients in the soil into a form the plants can easily use. so
we're using it to encourage one final explosion of growth in our LUI's.

269 LUI-Day-82
270 LUI-Day-82A
271 LUI-Day-82B

LUI Day 83

this is our favorite pic so far of the LUI. on day 83, the 44th day of
bloom, our LUI's again got nothing but attention. we admired and
encouraged the babes but did nothing else but take the pretty pictures.

272 LUI-Day-83
273 LUI-Day-83A
274 LUI-Day-83B
275 LUI-Day-83C
276 LUI-Day-83D

LUI Day 84

the LUI babes are looking great. on the 45th day of bloom for our LUIs they
got a light drink of plain water.

277 LUI-Day-84
278 LUI-Day-84A
279 LUI-Day-84B

LUI Day 85

the colas keep putting on weight. a good friend (our wingman) told us we'd
be amazed at the way these babes continued to pack on the weight up to the
end. and as usual, he was absolutely correct. this is day 46 of bloom. 85
short days since germination. the LUI's in need got a light drink of plain
water. they were admired and encouraged as well. and they posed very pretty
like for the camera.

280 LUI-Day-85
281 LUI-Day-85A
282 LUI-Day-85B

PHENOTYPE: Dictionary Entry and Meaning__Pronunciation:
'feenow`tIp__Definition: [n] what an organism looks like as a consequence of
its genotype - the physical appearance/observable characteristics of an
organism.

genotype is the genetic makup of an organism. how it grow up and expresses
that genotype is it's phenotype. there are two major phenotypes that have
been described by prior growers of the LUI. some plants look more like their
SweetTooth parent. and other's express more like the Ortega parent. hope that
answer's your question.

and ceteris paribus . . . your answer is 3 to 5 colas per plant. depending on
the particular plant and it's general vigor. some plants developed 3 great
colas. other's grew 4. and at least one plant grew 5 strong arms.

LUI Day 86

on day 86 for the LUIs, they got a small drink of pure water. and kind words
of encouragement. about 2 gallons of water was shared between the bunch. and
that's the way it was. LUI day 86. this is Walter Chronic signing off.

283 LUI-Day-86

Hiya birdie buds! Since ya'll know of my recent discovery of all my plants
haveing such very small root balls. In the collectives knowledge, would the
Seedling Starter mix may have too may nutes in it for a good root system to
develop beyond the seedling stage? What I mean is, could that "maybe" at
least me a part of why the root system didn't grow as normal because it had
(along with me adding nutes along the way) all the nutes they needed in the
soil & added nutes, right at the top of thesoil, therefor the plants didn't
need to grow better root systems?!? Just a theory I wanted ya'll opinions
on. . . Artful Dodger . . .

Artful . . . buddy. it's probably not the soil itself. if it was a seedling
starter mix it likely had even less nutes in it then the soil we used. when
you fill your cups with soil do you pack it at all? maybe it's a compression
issue. soil packed too tightly can retard root growth. of all the grows we
wish we could help. sigh! keep thinking and throwing ideas our way. we'll
sort them through and sooner or later get and answer.

LUI Day 87

the LUI's got a little attention on day 87. since they are growing so huge.
we decided to rotate these babes. we ended up moving them to the outer edge
of our garden to help assure they get as much ventilation as possible. we
want to make sure that air keeps moving around these babes to diminish the
likelihood of mold. the first couple pics will be of the LUI babes before
they were moved. then a closer look at some of the LUI's on day 87, the
48th day of bloom for these babes.

284 LUI-Day-87
285 LUI-Day-87A
286 LUI-Day-87B
287 LUI-Day-87C
288 LUI-Day-87D

fog horn . . . we have heard about using a sulfur vaporizer from another
person on the boards a while back. but are hoping we won't have to go that
route. the big PM outbreak was before the LUI and it seems we had one
particular plant that was a carrier. now that she's gone from the garden,
the white scourge has not shown again. it took a while to lick. and we've
got some neem oil sitting here just in case we feel the need to make a
preventative spray on our vegging girls.

LUI Day 88

LUI's Day 88. and a "bird's eye" view down at the smallest of the LUI on day
88. their 49th day of bloom. completing their 7th week of bloom! they are
starting to look very tempting. even to patient old birds!

289 LUI-Day-88
290 LUI-Day-88A

DMZ . . . they haven't gotten any ferts since ending week 6. and only got hit
with a couple shots of fulvic acid since. as our version of an organic
"flush", they will - of course - get only plain water from now until harvest.

bigmak . . . was never any great shakes in math so ratios aren't something we
think much in. but these LUI's are pretty typical in terms of calyx to leaf
ratio for an indica. and most certainly they will be a big yielder. some of
our LUI's are showing a little color. so here's a look at one of the more
stunning leaves.

knowledgequest
Mar 4, 2006, 02:54 PM
LUI Day 89

291 LUI-Day-89---LUI-12-leaf

LUI Day 89 - LUI 10 __ here's the first in a series of individual LUI
portraits.

292 LUI-Day-89---LUI-10mugshot
293 LUI-Day-89---LUI-10Amugshot

LUI Day 89 - LUI 12 __ the 2nd in the LUI portrait series.

294 LUI-Day-89---LUI-12mugshot
295 LUI-Day-89---LUI-12Amugshot

LUI Day 89 - LUI 2 ___ the 3rd of the LUI's.

296 LUI-Day-89---LUI-2mugshot
297 LUI-Day-89---LUI-2Amugshot

LUI Day 89 - LUI 3 ___ the 4th in the series of LUIs.

298 LUI-Day-89---LUI-3mugshot
299 LUI-Day-89---LUI-3Amugshot

LUI Day 89 - LUI 4 ___ the 5th of the LUI's.

300 LUI-Day-89---LUI-4mugshot
301 LUI-Day-89---LUI-4Amugshot

LUI Day 89 - LUI 5 ___ the 6th little LUI.

302 LUI-Day-89---LUI-5mugshot
303 LUI-Day-89---LUI-5Amugshot

LUI Day 89 - LUI 9 ___ and the final LUI of the magnificent 7.

304 LUI-Day-89---LUI-9mugshot
305 LUI-Day-89---LUI-9Amugshot

Those LUIs are filling out nicely! Amazing job on the grow and pics! Can't
wait for the smoke report! . . . sensiologist . . .

how about one last shot of them LUI Clones that should be huge monsters
growing threw the roof by now!?!?! . . . DutchMasterZ . . .

thanks for the kudos bigmak and sensiologist. . . kind words are always
appreciated by the flock. we'll see what we can do for "clone" pics there
DMZ. ya probably know those babes have moved to bloom themselves and are
just starting to bud out a little. as for the original LUI's. a variety of
factors and influences have led us to plan a nearly imminent LUI harvest.
the best looking examples are quite ripe and the trichs are starting to
cloud. we'd considered allowing the slower example more time to finish but
we'll more likely bring the whole garden down at once. so it's about time
to have those garden gnomes start calling "timber" as they get out their
little axes and begin helping us with our LUI harvest. a couple folks have
privately asked for a peek into the pruning process here at the nest. and
certainly we can do a mini pictoral on trimming these babes as time allows.
and we're not quite to harvest day yet. so . . . the show must go on!

LUI Day 90

here's a peek at day 90. these babes are a couple days into their 8th week
and harvest is looking closer and closer.

306 LUI-Day-90

thanks again for everyone who's chirped in. certainly this LUI grow has
been a real labor of love. unfortunately we had catastrophic incident
within the last 24 hours while our trusty Nikon camera was attached to a
tripod. the intersection of an unstable tripod and a less than perfectly
stable photographer brought about a terrible fall with the associated
crunching noise and resulting inoperable camera. sigh. so further
"eye candy" from the birds has been called off until we can get a decent
working camera back into order. as for our LUI babes they are doing well
and awaiting their destiny.

losing the camera right now has really got us down. we were very close to
the end on this thread and it bothers us to leave it somewhat incomplete.
a couple of the LUI's are really showing some nice colors (more reddish
than purple in the fan leaves). so it's sad to not be able to post those
pics. and when the LUI came down we'd planned to post a mini trimming
tutorial in response to a request. so that's all the bad news. the good
news is the LUI's are close to done anyway. so there was not that much
show to miss.

skinnypuppy . . . the simple answer to the question of LUI streeeeetch was
that they didn't quite double in height during flowering. so if forced at
12" you'd realistically expect about a 20"- 24" finish. that's topped
plants. growers who's style is more for a single cola could probably expect
a bit more stretch still.

pepsi . . . the LUI's are far superior to the Herijuana in yield. the Heri's
strong point is potency not yield. and. no need to be sorry or think you
embarrassed us birds. we know your intent was to honor our contributions
here at CW and so we are truly honored - that simple!

btw. thanks for the kudos DMZ. but isn't it your turn for a "grow-along"???
- hehehehahaha. the LUI growalong was a true labor of love. but in all
honestly the 3LB's are enjoying this current vacation. catching up on some
sleep too!

thanks for the kudos Candide . . . kind words are always appreciated from
our friends - this thread was a true labor of love for the birds and our
only regret is not being able to finish it with more style due to the
"floppy fingered foggy" incident - in the end it shows everything but
harvest so we are certainly proud. but we also know we'll do even better
"next time".

and thanks for chirping in Artful . . . as you know you are like family and
our only regret is that we simply can't step in and grow with you for a few
months until you've got everything dialed in just right.

and Aerofreak . . . the jury's still out on the fulvic acid - to really
know for sure we'd need to test it more. but early signs were promising. it
does appear to make a difference if everything else is already dialed in.
but we don't want to start "crowing" about it until we've tried it over a
more extended time.

March 30th,2004 . . . although many have reported a lemony flavor for the
LUI . . . we've found a more complex "fruity" undertone rather than a
"citrus" taste . . . this is before anything approaching a proper cure
. . . just a preliminary taste

potency (in medicinal terms) is more than good enough to satisfy a jaded
old bird . . . again this is a preliminary analysis . . . but in terms of a
medicinal indica we'd rate it a 8 on a scale of 1-10 . . .

yield was absolute top notch . . . lots of top quality dense buds . . .
among the best yielding plants the 3LB have yet grown . . .

as we've said in a couple of threads . . . the loss of our camera served as
a catalyst to encourage us to take a vacation . . . we've taken a break from
our responsibilities and are currently off soaring on the spring breeze . . .

the birds are on an extended vacation from the nest . . . so when the first
Robin of spring arrives on your window sill (if it hasn't long ago) . . .
you will know the birds are flitting by your abode in our travels . . .
__________________________
Calling All Growers!

Sinsemilla Sanctuary ~ My Cannabis Chronicles

!! GROW MORE POT !!

I found the 3LittleBirds Grow Along "From Seeds to Weed"!


And here is some more recovered 3LB stuff
This is not mine its ThreeLittleBirds.


1 Gallon of water
1 TBSP of guano (for a flowering mix we’d use Jamaican or Indonesian Bat Guano - for a more general use fertilizer we would choose Peruvian Seabird Guano.)
1 tsp blackstrap or sugar beet molasses
We mix the ingredients directly into the water and allow the tea mix to brew for 24 hours. It’s best to use an aquarium pump to aerate the tea

We also use molasses to sweeten and enrich Alfalfa meal teas. Our standard recipe for this use is:
4 gallons of water
1 cup of fine ground alfalfa meal
1 TBSP blackstrap or sugar beet molasses
After a 24 hour brew, this 100% plant-based fertilizer is ready for application. Alfalfa is a great organic plant food, with many benefits above and beyond just the N–P-K it can contribute to a soil mix or tea. We do plan to cover Alfalfa and it’s many uses in greater detail soon in yet another thread. We prefer to mix our alfalfa meal directly into the tea, but many gardeners use the stocking”tea bag”method with great effectiveness, both work well, it’s really just a matter of personal preference.

The alfalfa tea recipe we described can be used as a soil drench, and also as a foliar feed. And foliar feeding is the final use of molasses we’d like to detail. Foliar feeding, for the unfamiliar, is simply the art of using fine mist sprays as a way to get nutrients directly to the plant through the minute pores a plant”breathes”through. It is by far the quickest and most effective way to correct nutrient deficiencies, and can be an important part of any gardener’s toolbox.

Molasses is a great ingredient in foliar feeding recipes because of it’s ability to chelate nutrients and bring them to the “table” in a form that can be directly absorbed and used by the plant. This really improves the effectiveness of foliar feeds when using them as a plant tonic. In fact it improves them enough that we usually can dilute our teas or mix them more “lean” - with less fertilizer - than we might use without the added molasses.

Of course it is possible to use molasses as a foliar feed alone, without any added guano or alfalfa. It’s primary use would be to treat plants who are deficient in Potassium, although molasses also provides significant boosts in other essential minerals such as Sulfur, Iron and Magnesium. Organic farming guides suggest application rates of between one pint and one quart per acre depending on the target plant. For growing a fast growing annual plant like cannabis, we’d suggest a recipe of 1 teaspoon molasses per gallon of water.

In all honesty, we’d probably suggest a foliar feeding with kelp concentrate as a better solution for an apparent Potassium shortage. Kelp is one of our favorite foliar feeds because it is a complete source of micronutrients in addition to being a great source of Potassium. Kelp has a variety of other characteristics that we love, and we plan that it will be the topic of it’s own detailed thread at a future date. But, for growers that cannot find kelp, or who might have problems with the potential odors a kelp foliar feeding can create, molasses can provide an excellent alternative treatment for Potassium deficient plants at an affordable price.




Some of this information I give credit to 3BM, it was he who posted this information for everyone to read.

3BM its good to have you around again. And I also have your Composting 101 saved if you would like it.

And a big Thanks to our resident Guru Suby for making this thread possible.

 

[vonforne]

POMH

I'm glad we were able to help you with your grow, I remember you had alot of specific questions and that is a the most problematic character of growing there are a TON of specifics that have an impact and a bearing on the success of your grow, it's easy to read articles and buy the latest products but it comes down to ironing out the specifics and details of YOUR particular vectors like water, air quality, temps, setup etc. that make any help usefull.

POMH, glad we could help. And I might add POMH only took small steps to improvement. That is the best way to tell if you are getting good results. If you have ever looked at her thread in Micro grows, it is evident in the care and health of her plants.

 

[jaykush]

suby ive done that waterfall method and its works hella good. also theres a cheaper easier version ill have to make up a diagram sometimes im too stoned to explain. ive also seen a set up where some guy made a mini stream with rocks and tiny falls dude was nuts but had some huge plants. then that vortex method i said earlier i heard works excellent nad aerates the water good.

oh yea airstones for tea = eh useless. i broke mine in half to keep it weighted to stay at the bottom. been using pure sugar cane as well for teas instead of molasses lately and the teas have been brewing a little faster and more earthy smell. its made a huge increase in some mint plants i got. 5x bigger leaves than ive ever seen them.

V damn this page has to have the most reading to do because of you. gotta love the 3lb methods though there killer! love the jungle of green props.

 

[3BM]

Thanks Von! Its good to be around, and thanks for the interest in composting. You're making me want to update that thread ... hmmm.

 

[Scay Beez]

Suby: I have also read that oxygen gets dissolved into the water when the bubbles break the surface. Bigger bubbles also move the water around more. I built a hurtback hydro system one time and did compost/guano teas in it with great success. It uses the waterfall method.

JayKush: The vortex is something I've seen a lot of biodynamic gardeners use. It spins one way so many revolutions then spins the other way the same # of times to simulate the chaotic order in the universe (ala Big Bang). From a scientist's prospective it will kill some of the microorganisms off from the violent motion of the water. The biodynamic waterfalls with all the energy crystals and herb mixes are awesome.

Sugar cane is a more simple sugar than molasses so it will break down faster. It is strictly a bacteria food and will rapidly increase the bacteria count quickly in your tea. BSM is both a fungus and bacteria food. MJ prefers a slightly bacterial dominant soil. Mint plants prefer a mostly bacterial soil so sugar cane is an excellent food for them (microorganisms). It also adds only magnesium vs adding Ca, K, etc. that BSM contains. I find that it makes herb taste a lot sweeter with a higher sweet note than BSM.

Great discussion, I like hearing different people's experiences and opinions on CT cause I'm a huge organic nerd.


- sbz